Defining Hospitality

Dan Ryan: Today's guest is an expert in hospitality development and planning. He's dedicated to adapting and accommodating current corporate values like social responsibility.

He's described as a solid leader, exceptional relationship builder. And a remarkable technical subject matter expert. He's a senior Vice President at Cumming Corporation. Ladies and gentlemen, Nikki Uncles,

Nicky Unkles: thanks for having me. Dan. It's

Dan Ryan: it's good to have you here. I'm so glad we're doing this in person because my Scottish is not very good.

Nicky Unkles: I will try and speak slowly and clearly. Um,

Dan Ryan: Um, so there's a lot of thi, a lot of subjects I want to cover with you, but, um, first I just wanted to ask. You know, just for those of you who don't know, you open hotels, right? You're conducting the symphony of all the consultants, the construction, managing all the budgets, um, mostly in the luxury side, but you're really getting all these things to come together on a postage stamp at some point in the future, on time, on budget, in the luxury space.

So in juggling all that and juggling all those chainsaws, right? And to make all that happen, all these really important milestones, how do you. Define hospitality on the way towards what you're trying to accomplish.

Nicky Unkles: So,

um, the definition of hospitality is the friendly reception and treatment of guests or strangers.

To be genuine means to be authentic and sincere. These terms seem easy enough to understand, but the actual practice of genuine hospitality takes consideration and anticipation of your customer's needs. It's real, it's authentic, it's caring, it's compassionate, and above all, it's above all, it's welcoming.

It

doesn't matter if it's the CEO of a Fortune 500 or the intern, true hospitality is an emotional connection with the guest. And All guests are guests.

Dan Ryan: So in, in keeping with that, And, and you're trying to establish that connection. So I know in speaking with you earlier, like buildings are just buildings. It's all the things that happen within it, right? And you're responsible for making those buildings come to life. when you think about that, um, How do you balance all those things while still trying to drive a project to open on time so that the owners that you're working with are happy and, and they feel that same way when it opens? How do you manage all the stakeholders? So

Nicky Unkles: it's ultimately all comes down to a process and we need to delineate that process very early on. And we also need to manage expectations head on and early on in that process. And if that process is not maintained or the, or there's a deviation from that process, things start to come undone relatively quickly.

So my job is ultimately, I.

keeping

everyone in their lane, allowing owners and decision makers to make informed decisions. And those informed decisions would be what would the impact, what would the schedule or budget impact be of making a small change? That small change to them may seem insignificant, but it may have a detrimental impact on the schedule.

Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: So, If I'm hearing you correctly, it's really like listening to everyone, keeping everyone informed and, but really staying in your lane. And I know that, you know, we all think that we've seen every possible scenario, but when we're doing a new project, whether it's furniture or building the whole building, we still see things that we've never seen before.

Right. We're still surprised. So can you give an example of one of those times where you had a big surprise that was unexpected? So, And kind of how you navigated all those stakeholders while also getting, you know, driving to what your, your ultimate goal is and the thesis of the project, but also making sure that everyone is heard and accountable

Nicky Unkles: Uh, there was one particular project, rather significant project that I will not mention. Um, and we were well into construction and the owner decided that he was going to change the design of the property. And when I say change the design, it was to introducing an entirely new design team. Um, so at that moment in time, as frightening as it was, The only way to best protect the client was to ensure that the program remained somewhat untouched and that the changes that were brought to the table were more tag finishes by way of ID and less layout changes.

That said, all the materiality had already been purchased. And trying to undo that was close to impossible. So you're getting, you know, 25 cents in the dollar credits for materiality you've already pre-purchased. Um, so we were trying to best encourage and I use encourage, um, Carefully here. We try to best encourage the design team and the owner to harness those materials we'd already purchased.

Dan Ryan: And

Nicky Unkles: uh, ultimately there was, um, back and forth and there was a compromise. Like there isn't nothing, most things in life.

Dan Ryan: and it opened.

Nicky Unkles: it opened a year. It opened a year late and massively over budget. Uh, we, uh, we had a tsunami of change orders that we had to best navigate. And, um, that was, you know, A real, a real challenge because, you know, it was myself and one other cost manager against, uh, an army of engineers who were looking for ways of sliding paper across the table to say, you owe us this amount of money.

And we had to not only verify the validity of those change orders, but really tear them apart and dig into the, the unit pricing. The rates, the materiality, and you know, try and best protect the owner as we could. I mean, ultimately we saved, you know, significant amounts of money, but there was still a huge budget bust as a result of that change, which was,

Dan Ryan: Well, it wasn't you that changed the design as everything was going right. So you just, at that point, you're delta like a hand and you have to adapt and get it done.

Nicky Unkles: all we could do at that moment in time was mitigate the overall risk and

Dan Ryan: say, mm, great. Um, so coming, okay, so there's a couple.

This next area, it kind of dovetails into a couple different things, but obviously we just went through a pandemic, right? And. As an as being in the, in the storm as a supplier. Um,

you know, it was really about hanging on, like, how do we hang on and do this? And there were a lot of people that were, that hung on.

There were a lot of people that didn't. And then there were the few companies that really took it as an opportunity to grow. And I really think that you guys took this as an opportunity of growth through acquisition. And growth. I think you started before you, you, you carried on through the pandemic. How, as a company going through all of that, did you guys communicate with each other and maintain that culture of abundance and growth?

Nicky Unkles: We were very fortunate in that construction ultimately was an essential, um, requirement, and it allowed us to continue. I mean, we slowed down. I can only speak to my hospitality projects, but you know, we slowed down for, you know, a couple of days and we were back at it. It was, you know, permits were changed.

We were railroading through, uh, all the projects as essential works, and it was really about not necessarily staffing the projects. The construction itself was somewhat unchallenging. It was the, in the months that followed the initial shut down.

Dan Ryan: and the

Nicky Unkles: shortages became a, a huge, huge challenge, and we saw the unforeseen, uh, escalation in both materiality and labor. It was a, it was a very challenging time. Uh, we, we did get through that. Ultimately, a lot of the budgets, uh, Had to be compromised and there was value engineering introduced to offset those, uh, escalations. Um, and towards the end of projects where we met, what I thought was the single biggest challenge was the shipping.

Um, you know, most ff and e uh, those vendors are, are coming out of, you know, Vietnam, China. Um, a lot of the vendors, you know, We'll say they're in Canada, but ultimately the, the materials themselves are fabricated and far off distant lands. And, um, we had to work hand in hand with the procurement agents to best navigate those troubled waters.

And it was massively challenging and it was, you know, hand to hand, hand-to-hand combat daily, um, to get those containers to a US port.

Dan Ryan: Mm.

Nicky Unkles: Yeah. And then,

Dan Ryan: then, but also I got the feeling and I also saw that you guys continued to grow through then, right?

Nicky Unkles: Apologies. Yes. So we actually grew, you know, 25% year on year through cor, through covid.

Um,

Dan Ryan: and was that organic or acquisition, or both?

Nicky Unkles: It was a combination. I mean, the majority of it was ultimately acquisition and, you know, uh, where, where others stumbled and, and floundered. We were in a fortunate position to be strong and, um, Derek and, and, and the rest of the team saw it as a real opportunity to, to grow and we, you know, doubled down on the, on the acquisitions and, and, and, and grew the business, you know, quite significantly over the past three years.

Dan Ryan: Wow. I mean, it's pretty amazing because there are companies that did grow, but most of, most everyone, most companies were just hanging on. So how did you guys, like, I guess, what was the strategy? Who, who said, you know what, it's time to acquire, it's time to go. And then I guess you just had a lot of dry powder in there, or like

Nicky Unkles: you know, there was no magic. So there was no secret formula. Um, we adapted to suit and, you know, we were adapting continually. Uh, and we evolved all the way through Covid and we continually evolved to this day. You know, we're, we're, we're very fortunate in that hospitality is, uh, a, a small sector in Cummings overall, overall portfolio.

Were very well diversified with. Aviation, transport, infrastructure, education. Um, so we, we, we were fortunate that we're, if one market sector was hit, uh, other market sectors flourished. Um, that said, for hospitality, we were very fortunate in that we predominantly, Are focused in luxury and ultra luxury hospitality, which saw phenomenal growth through Covid.

Um, it was the, uh, select service and extended, say, properties that got decimated. Um, they're making a strong comeback now, but I mean, let's face it, they were decimated, but, uh, those ultra luxury properties, Excelled. I mean, you look at, I I I'm in gear in, in Utah with Canyon Equity. I mean, those guys were sold out years in advance.

Um, with, with with the offering they had the very unique offering they had. So ultra luxury, we were very fortunate. That was one of our core focuses off hospitality.

Dan Ryan: So that's a good point because in I, I hear that you're well diversified, like, I mean, I, I see it, but as I'm hearing you say that, um, so I guess a two part question. One is how did the, did the learnings that you learned from working in ultra luxury or luxury and ultra luxury hospitality, how do, how do the learnings that you.

You gain on projects, apply to the other channels like aviation, commercial, you name it. Is there, is there any kind of learning or way that, or you, I know you said processes, it's all about process, process, process earlier. Is there anything that you, you guys have learned or distilled from hospitality?

Distilled whiskey, scotch, there we go. But um, is there any, does it. Does that apply to all your other channels? Number one, and then number two. And, and how, and number two, um, h how do you define and stay as a leader in luxury and ultra luxuries based on all those learnings and findings? Like what keeps you in that sandbox?

Nicky Unkles: So beyond being the wint trick pony in hospitality, um, we genuinely, I genuinely, my team genuinely loves what we do. My interns, my senior project managers, Directors, vice presidents, they genuinely love what they do. Sometimes they're moved on to other sectors and they call me and they're like, Nikki, I'm bored.

I want to get back into hospitality. We love it. It's exciting, it's fun. It's you, you can relate to it immediately and there's no bigger kick, uh, than going back to past properties that you've lost. Bags of blood, sweat, and tears on over years, and you're actually now seeing them operate successfully.

There's no bigger kick out of that. And, and I take my family back to properties I've previously worked on, and I, I, I love to be there, um, because we love what we do. Um, it's, it's easier, uh, when you do what you love. Uh, and, and, and we. Have a very strong connection with the luxury and ultra luxury market and owners and developers, you know, like to work with us.

They, they, they know the attributes we bring. We don't need to sell ourselves. Um, they know the value that we, that we can immediately add and we like to get involved in these projects. Early on in the process, that's where we can best mitigate overall risk and exposure. Uh, and sometimes owners and developers bring us into the process later in the day when they're already nine months pregnant and we're holding their hand, taking them into the, into the maternity ward

Dan Ryan: Mm, or you're already on it, and then they change everything in the middle. Um, okay. Great. So, and a couple of marquee projects that just having just done a little research and just speaking to you, but Ana down in Miami and public in New York. Yeah. So as far as. Completing those. And I know, like Faina in particular had some crazy artwork and just so many other things going on down there.

Fabulous. I mean, Justin, I, I can't even imagine how you move it from one place to the other and get it all installed. But what are some lessons that you learned on those more recent projects, opening those from, and did it change your approach at all? Or did were your processes already. Instilled in unchanging from a, from a perspective of project management.

Nicky Unkles: Yeah. Again, the process is the process. You, you've, you've, you've gotta have a, a strong playbook that you default to, um, both finer and, um, public.

New Yorker, very close to my heart. Faina was the first project I delivered in Miami and. Public was the first project I delivered in New York. Um, I work with both brands to this day and, uh, we're still at, um, at public in New York continually evolving and developing their program. And uhm unfortunate enough to be, uh, helping Faina, um, deliver, uh, their New York property.

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm. And then, oh, when is that opening?

Nicky Unkles: Um, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to share that, but the, the target was towards the end of 24, but I think it's probably gonna push into Q 1 25.

Dan Ryan: Okay. You can tell me and then kill me.

Yeah. Okay. if you were to compare or contrast yourself to non-luxury or ultra-luxury, how, how does that, White glove project management and process is, is it different from just a regular project to a luxury or ultra luxury project?

Nicky Unkles: luxury?

Yes, it's, it's, it's dramatically

Dan Ryan: different. And how

Nicky Unkles: so, um, people probably, owners probably wouldn't necessarily stomach or have the appetite to pay the fee. Associated with having us deliver, uh, days in at exit five and 95. Um, you know, ultimately that's a very generic, um, rollout and it differs. It's a, it's a, it's a completely different universe to a, a luxury or an ultra luxury for that matter product, which is. Completely unique. And every program element of that property is completely unique. Whether it's the, the theater and the stage, or if it's the, the bars and the restaurants, the f and b, the uh, the back of house, the guest rooms, the presidential suite, the roof terrace. It's the spa, the pearls. These program elements and, and no one hotel is, is similar to another, is, you mean you're starting ground zero every single time.

Dan Ryan: Mm. And then is there anything. So another unique thing that I see when I look at, when I look at you guys and see

Nicky Unkles: there's you,

Dan Ryan: Derek and Gavin who are like all Scottish. How did you guys meet? And then how, what is that Scottish thing going on

Nicky Unkles: The the Scottish Mafia.

Dan Ryan: the Scottish Mafia? What is that?

Nicky Unkles: Uh, well, I mean, ultimately, uh, Finlay Cumming is the genesis of the entire Scottish Mafia, right?

So it, you know, Finley founded Cumming in, in 96 out of Irving, California. Um, Derek, Derek and I were both at Glasgow Caledonian University. He had a, a, a very clear roadmap into what he was doing, and, and he graduated and moved straight out to California. And was probably Finlay's fourth employee. Um, I was a a little bit behind, um, in that, um, de Derek saw what I had done in Miami with, uh, finer and, um, he'd taken a, a leave of absence to go and work with Starwood Capital, uh, on the, uh, acquisition side of things where he obviously grew a deep relationship with Gavin, who was heading up development for Barry.

Um, so, um, I think Finley had suggested to Derek that he'd completed his masters in, in mergers or acquisitions and come back to coming. And he did. And, uh, thankfully he called me after completing Faina and, and suggested I come and help spearhead and grow New York. Um, I don't think he was as convincing to, uh, Gavin who went off with, um, Peter to form, uh, layer.

But thankfully, um, a couple of years later, um, Leer was a very natural, uh, uh, acquisition for coming in that, uh, we were the very much the scrappy dogs in New York, um, whereby Peter was very well established, you know, pedigree, pedigree, um, project manager. So for us to truly be recognized as, you know, True heavyweight project managers.

Um, lair was a, was a, an easy target and thankfully, uh, Peter, uh, came into the family and, um, I thoroughly enjoyed the years. I, I worked with Peter and, and learned a tremendous amount.

Dan Ryan: Awesome. And then so I didn't realize that. It goes that far back. Okay. So when you think about, actually earlier you said that you prefer to come into a luxury or ultra luxury project at a very early stage, cause then you can add the most value. And then how are you on those projects where you come in at a very early stage?

If you could share an example, um, what kind of value do you guys add? Is it, is it as far as assembling the whole team? Um,

Nicky Unkles: as before

Dan Ryan: that,

Even before. Okay. So like, walk us through like what an early stage, um, relationship looks like and what the value drive from that

Nicky Unkles: So when we're fortunate enough to be asked to the table in that instance, typically the client has a vision in mind and we are ultimately trying to help them land that vision on paper.

And, uh, that would start with, uh, a super high level charette where we would identify. What the outline program's gonna be. And to do that, we would typically have a, a go-to of who we think would be a, a very strong master planner. Um, cause a lot of these sites can be, you know, spread over, you know, hundreds of acres.

Um, so we need a, a, a master planner, whether that's an architectural master planner or a landscape master planner. And we work with both. And, um, We have our preferred teams that we like to work with, and we would sit down, um, over a two day event, better fully understand the vision of the client, and literally start mapping it out on, you know, paper, a zero paper with color pens, what the hotel program's going to be, the size, the volume, the, the program elements, the landscape, the roads, the infrastructure.

Um, and you know, when we kind of spit that out, what we think the program's gonna be, we can start pooling together some super high level wrong budgets. And, you know, more often than not that wrong budget is, is not received very well and we go back and start pooling back in the program. Um, but you know, that's where ultimately a project lives or dies is that first couple of days.

Sitting down with a master planner and trying to land, what's the baseline program? What's the baseline budget? And then does it even pencil?

Dan Ryan: Yeah, and then from the times that you're brought on in that early stage, I mean, you must do look backs to say, okay, this was like the pie in the sky. We came up with these numbers. Now we showed it. I think they weren't too happy with what the numbers look like. Like you shoot for the stars. Then it's like, okay, well let's.

This is what you guys want. Now let's see how we can come up with something that's more reasonable. When you're done with the project, how often do you look back and like, I mean, you must do it on every one, just compare and how do you rate yourselves?

Nicky Unkles: more than once, um, we've sat down and we've been through the trying to land the baseline program and that baseline, uh, budget. And the clients had massive sticker shock and said, we need to pull back the program. Or sometimes they've said, you're completely off target. And we decided to part ways and go in a wrong direction and later find out that they're, you know, 70, a hundred million dollar budget.

Whatever it is, is, is actually the $200 million. We told them it was gonna be three years later. Um, and you know, There's not much we can do at that point, but say, you know, we told you so. Um, but you know, more often than not, the number we give is the right number. And, um, program needs to be pulled back

Dan Ryan: Okay.

Nicky Unkles: because it's not gonna be that luxury, ultra luxury property by value engineering it.

Right? It's just value engineering, uh, and a man resort. It happens, but you know, you cannot, you cannot. Do anything that would have any ability to impact the overall guest experience whatsoever.

Dan Ryan: Totally. So that, and that's, that's really what's driving is that guest experience

Nicky Unkles: A hundred percent. Listen, I, I guest arrives and they, they, they see the pretty things, the exterior finishes and they've really got no idea what's going on behind the walls.

So, you know, volume engineering, if it comes to that, has to be carefully thought through in that. Those guest experiences are not impacted you impacted. You do not want to be changing out.

Dan Ryan: against

Nicky Unkles: Violet, a beautiful marble finishes in the spa for a porcelain tile because it's no longer a five star or an ultra lux ray product.

It's just every other generic hotel at that point.

And then

Dan Ryan: again, going back to that one trick pony metaphor. You've been doing this for over 20 years, correct. In the, in the hospitality space. How have you, Nikki evolved over that 25 years? And I'm asking from a way, like, we get a lot of younger people looking or listening or watching, um, these podcasts and thinking about all these great careers into hospitality, design development.

What, how has, how has your career evolved? Like, could you see yourself here right now? From when you were first starting and any words of advice for other people who, who may want to get into project management or as a, a representative of ownership groups?

Nicky Unkles: Um, I'm, I'm pretty tenacious. I'm pretty stubborn. Um, and, you know, my wife regularly tells me I'm tenacious. Um, and she tells, she says, I'm stubborn too. Uh, but. My advice would be, you know, people give up too easy.

People just don't have the stomach for it. And it's like if you're gonna start something, see it through and finish it, right? Because it's all an experience. And an experience is only good, right? It can be a bad experience, but it's still experience and experience is good. So my re my. Advice and recommendation to my interns and we have a, a small army of interns, is, look, you might not enjoy this moment in time in the project, but stick it through, because giving up and moving from one job to another, it really doesn't look good in a resume.

I mean, I, I go through resumes daily and a resume to me is very quick to read because I've flicked through it and it's. 18 months, 12 months, seven months, I, I've, I've no interest in it whatsoever because clearly they've never started a project and seen it all the way through fruition to handing it over and someone that has had the benefit of living and breathing from the initial visionary programming, budgeting through the design phase, through the procurement, through the awards, through construction, and more importantly, through that turnover and closeout of a project. That's invaluable. Absolutely invaluable. So if someone has that,

they, you know, the, the stars is a limit for them.

Dan Ryan: So you're looking for gluttons for punishment?

Yeah. Tenacious gluttons for

Nicky Unkles: I like, and I, I like tenacious people

Dan Ryan: okay, let's say you find them, but how

Nicky Unkles: do

you

Dan Ryan: teach them to be even more?

Nicky Unkles: having the ability to genuinely care and, and take ownership, uh, is where, you know, many people struggle and, and that struggle can come with training or sometimes it's just natural to people. Um, you know, When it comes to operations, uh, and operational training training's, more than just turning down a bed, setting a table, uh, or checking someone in, you know, true hospitality training is all encompassing, uh, whereby, you know, you take ownership of what's not my job.

Know, the, the little piece of litter in the hotel lobby, the empty coffee cup and a table, uh, a helping hand to an elderly guest and here to listen a careful eye, a gentle hand, you know, that's hospitality. And that's what really makes the difference.

Dan Ryan: I love that it's go, it's,

Nicky Unkles: it is

Dan Ryan: it's really, and, and if you think about why you're doing all those extra things, even though they're not called, they're not, it's not like part of your job description.

Nicky Unkles: It's

because.

Dan Ryan: You have the empathy for that other person, that guest that's walking through to experience

Nicky Unkles: it,

right?

You put so much into these projects, you want them to be nothing short of an acclaimed success, and if you see something that's outta place, you can't not help yourself but to step in and. You know, that's a problem. I mean, I regularly go to properties and my wife, Selena will, will get frustrated because I'm picking out the flaws and, and, and she's like, why do you switch off and enjoy where you are? Um, but yeah, unfortunately, uh, it's, it's, it's a, a trait that will follow me for the rest of my days.

Yeah.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. Um,

I guess

earlier, earlier in my career, in the early two thousands, um, there was a gentleman named Stan Bromley who was, did you

Nicky Unkles: ever

know him? I did not. Uh,

Dan Ryan: was like a, a gm, but also like in the higher management structure of Four Seasons. He was in San Francisco, he was in dc then moved to San Francisco, and I would have coffee with him sometimes.

My, my mother-in-law was actually friends with him or still is friends with him, but he would always walk around with like a little, in like an index card and notice all these things. He would, and walking through the hotel with him, he'd pick stuff up, but he, the stuff that he couldn't do right then and there, he'd make a note and let's say there were fingerprints on a door or.

Just other things that were out of place, he

Nicky Unkles: wouldn't

go

Dan Ryan: to the person that was responsible

Nicky Unkles: for

that

Dan Ryan: because that would've been a missed opportunity for training and growth for the manager. He would collect all these things and then sit down and be like, okay, I noticed this, this, this, this, this. Like, what can you do about it?

So

Nicky Unkles: in

a way,

Dan Ryan: he's, if he went directly to that

Nicky Unkles: person,

Dan Ryan: he's. Taking an opportunity for learning and growth for that manager and then that manager, it's all, it's an opportunity for him or her to have the person that was responsible for it to learn and grow from that as well. And again, that's, that's training, that's culture.

That's just it.

Nicky Unkles: it's,

Dan Ryan: uh,

it, it, it has so much to do with what hospitality is. I,

oh, actually going back to you and that 10 tenacity, how has that, how's that serve you over your 25 years?

Nicky Unkles: It's not dissimilar to the advice I give. I, I'm, I'm very fortunate to have worked on some wonderful projects. Um, I've also worked on some not so wonderful projects and, you know, some of those are going on to this day. Um, but um, I think it's served me well. Um, it's, it's important to be able to. Emphasize and share with fellow younger team members and new clients and owners that you have the stomach for it and you're not gonna give up at the first hurdle, or you're not gonna give up at the 29th hurdle.

You're gonna see it through. You're gonna be there with them by their side, and you will have, we'll have fallouts along the way, but, you know, dust yourself off, pick yourself up and, and carry on. You know, it's, there's no one person is more important than the project.

Dan Ryan: Okay. So you've been here for, you've been doing this for 25 years. Um, as you look at all the evolution of coming. And where you are now and where you Nikki are right now, and what's exciting you most as you look ahead over the next handful of

Nicky Unkles: years?

I

Dan Ryan: I

Nicky Unkles: covid changed everything. It really did. Um, people, people. People want more and, and they're gonna continue to push the boundaries of what that more is.

Um, there, there's talk and there's, I'm witnessing all inclusive, making a, a, a, a, a strong comeback. But, you know, people want more, they want better experiences, and those experiences can be on property, they can be off property, but. It's the, the world of hospitality's forever changed. People aren't going to accept substandard anymore.

They want good finish. They want good service, and it's gotta be consistent. It can't be, you know, show up on a Sunday morning and it's different to what you experienced the day before. It's gotta be consistent and it's gotta be good.

Dan Ryan: so on the consist, I love the word consistency, cuz to me, I always hear this word authentic. Oh, be authentic, more authentic. But to me what authenticity is, is just really being consistent on what you're delivering, right? so Nikki, as you look to the future of the projects that you have that, of with clients that you're working with, or even ones that you're not working with, more aspirational clients

Nicky Unkles: that

are

out

there,

Dan Ryan: what is exciting you about what you're seeing in the future as it pertains to luxury and ultra luxury hospitality?

Nicky Unkles: What excites me and what excites a lot of people is, is the unknown, right? People are gonna continue to push the boundaries and challenge themselves and others, and. You know, ultra luxury is a very unique, uh, experience and, you know, luxury is a massively overutilized word, which is why we've had to come up with, you know, ultra luxury.

And, you know, in years from now it's gonna be ultra, ultra luxury. But, um, ultra luxury is really being able to anticipate, truly anticipate. An emotional connection with the guest and second guessing what's gonna excite them. And, and that experience, as I said earlier, could be on the property and it could be off the property.

Right. And, um, there's one particular flag that I'm aware of that because of. Who they are. They have an ability to give guests an off-market experience in that if they were in Zion National Park, for example, they could literally drive in the back door, not see another tourist and have a literally v I p.

Gateway entrance to Zion National Park. And the problem with Zion isn't Zion. The problem with Zion is through Covid, it just became so popular that it's, it's been detrimental to the experience of Zion. Now there's just so many people. So for a particular flag to have the ability to provide that true v i p experience. Off property really does separate them from anybody else.

Dan Ryan: that would be Aman Gear. Aman gear. I've never been there. I've always wanted to go. Have you

Nicky Unkles: you stayed

there?

I've been on property a number of times, but I've never stayed there. Um, um, canyon owned the, the, the local Hyatt in page where, which is where I reside when I'm on property.

Dan Ryan: And how, how far is that drive from

Nicky Unkles: page

It's 20

minutes. Oh,

Dan Ryan: cuz whenever I see those photos of Aman gear, it looks like it's on Mars.

Nicky Unkles: It's the most unique and surreal landscape you'll ever experience.

Dan Ryan: And were you involved in that from the very beginning? Oh, you were not

Nicky Unkles: no, I was not. No. I, I have a, a good working relationship with Canyon and we're now, uh, working with them on the Amge private residencies

There.

there at amge.

Dan Ryan: Oh, and is it the same type of, is the same architect

all Oh wow. All and all that co

Nicky Unkles: Yeah. They, they're all exposed concrete and you know, it looks like it's very simple, but usually it's the most simple things are the most challenging.

Yeah. And, uh, it's, uh, massively challenging,

Dan Ryan: um,

Nicky Unkles: um, because of its location, because of its design, because of a hundred different

Dan Ryan: Yeah, just getting everything there. I can't even imagine. And, and then the execution. And it's so hard to find good people

Nicky Unkles: that

can

Dan Ryan: execute on that, on that vision as well.

Nicky Unkles: consistently, right. So we've

Dan Ryan: Especially there where you know, it, I don't know. Do you, do you have to put up housing

Nicky Unkles: for

people? So, uh,

yep. And, um, I mean ultimately that's why, um, canyon have the, the, the, the, the hotel in page, because it was ultimately used for labor housing, um, uh, from the outside. And now, you know, Paige is grown as a town, you know, Tenfold.

It's quite something how, how, how well, how well recognized Paige is. But yeah, it's, it's all of the above. There's, there's, uh, accommodations to be provided. People aren't expected to come and go. It's, uh, it's, it's very challenging and it's very cost prohibitive too.

Dan Ryan: So I wanna go back to something you said about lead. Like I'm, I'm a lead accredited professional. I was like very hook, line and sinker. Bought into it back in 2008 or oh nine plus. It was something

Nicky Unkles: to do

Dan Ryan: after the financial crisis when there was not a lot of work going on, but it, I had time to like do a real deep dive into it and I, I really appreciate everything that lead brought to the vernacular of what we're, what we're all doing.

And it kind of helped push. Sustainability and like an action plan for what we can do in the built environment. However, I come from like the FF and E world, right? So oftentimes LEAD does not apply to that. And as much as I appreciate how lead moved the needle, um, if you look at a building, let's say it lasts a hundred years. If it goes under 10, right? Well, let's just say like you're building a, a new building. It's a hundred years. I just like a hundred. Cuz it's easy math. You might, if, if you're doing a renovation every 10 years, that's 10 renovations of FF and e that goes in and out. The supply chain, the materials, the impact.

And I think that while LEAD is a great start, it doesn't address all the things that go into it from a furniture fixture and equipment perspective. Um, As you're dealing with companies

like

Six Senses or Star, uh, Starwood or One Hotels. Cause you've worked on all those, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, and sustainability seems to be on the forefront with all of them.

How do you kind of reconcile or select vendors or select materials that can last a but also. Think about what the renovation cycle would be like in the future, and you might not even be on the

Nicky Unkles: project.

So the FF and e design ultimately comes from the ID team and um, sometimes the ID team are. Suggesting or tabling materials that we know from past experience are not fit for purpose like sand. Lauren on Stone, for example, does not belong on a bar counter because it's gonna get very quickly decimated with citrus, your, your limes and your lemons, and you'll end up with a tough guard over the top of it, which you know. Doesn't look good. Um, but we, we ultimately try and best opine where we can from, from past experience, which materials are good, bad, and different. Um, but you know, the, the reality is when you're working with luxury and ultra luxury properties, you know, do you get what you pay for? Um, if you, if you buy, if you value engineer your ff and e, you know, you get what you pay for and you know you're gonna be replacing case goods.

You know, every 10 years whereby if you buy the right case goods, you know, there's no reason why they can't last 10, 20, 30, 40 years. Um, the, the soft goods, the soft furnishings a hundred percent, they need to be replaced as and when, but it's, it's being able to table past experience and what's worked and, and what's not worked.

And we have, unfortunately, experience of what's not worked.

Dan Ryan: Hmm. I found on case goods, like, that's kind of my bread and butter, but

Nicky Unkles: I

found

that

Dan Ryan: the, the ownership groups that are willing

to

Nicky Unkles: invest

in

Dan Ryan: not

only good case goods, but also like solid surface tops, for instance, horizontal on horizontal surfaces, it makes things last. They can last 20

years. Yeah. And so when you're, when you're looking at like a, let's say you're on the

Nicky Unkles: edge

of

a,

Dan Ryan: of a budget

Nicky Unkles: plan

Dan Ryan: and then, but the owner is, it's a trophy property.

They want this thing to last and you're like, look, you, if you really want this to last, I think that's a really wise spend to do this. How do you navigate those conversations when it might put them over? Are you looking to take from somewhere

Nicky Unkles: else?

So, unfortunately, um, it all comes down to, you know, capital expenditure and, um, the, the construction budget.

The soft costs is one thing, and the, the future maintenance of the property is another budget that's passed on to

Dan Ryan: operations. Mm-hmm.

Nicky Unkles: So that's not something that, um, we regularly opine on.

Dan Ryan: okay, you're just there conducting and making it all get done.

Nicky Unkles: that cans kick down the road for someone

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

when you think about the planning and execution of a hotel develop, let's say, from that early stage where you're doing the master plan, you know, you shoot for the stars, you, you're toning back, you, you keep progressing and you execute on that vision, you're, you're tenacities kept you there for the whole time.

Um, you deliver this finished project, how? Do you think that that finished project where you go from beginning to end, all the things are going right, how do you think that that helps define the hospitality experience that a guest may experience? Or do they not experience it?

Nicky Unkles: it?

They, they, they have no little to no idea what's happened to make that experience possible.

Dan Ryan: So they're just seeing the end result that's like, it's kind of funny. It's like, it's

Nicky Unkles: almost but why should they, right. They're paying. Top dollar to be there. Yeah. You know, they don't, why should they care?

Right. They wanna walk in and just be, they don't, they don't necessarily want to be wowed. It's, you know, if you're paying that money, it's an expectation.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. And I, I, and on one hand I also think it's similar

Nicky Unkles: to.

Dan Ryan: If signage or way wayfinding is done really, really well,

you

don't notice it. You just wind up getting to where you're supposed

Nicky Unkles: to

be.

So,

on that like, um, and I keep the. Defaulting back to Ahman, and I mean Yuri and Utah, but you know, the, when people, when people talk about signage and more importantly, um, identity at the, the, at the, the gateway to some of these sites, they, they have these grand ideas about monolith signs and hundreds of thousands of dollars more.

Um, When you look at a man, it's um, it's literally a, a, a farm gate. An electrified farm gate on a four by four, uh, post with a small 12 inch sign that says a man. And that's it. I mean, they're not expecting people to drive past and say, oh, there's a man, let's go in. You know, you're going there because you're going there, and sometimes less is more.

And I'm a big fan of less is more.

Dan Ryan: How did you wind up getting into all of this from, uh, Glasgow Caledonia into project management? Is that something you've, you want, you studied

Nicky Unkles: from

the

beginning.

Yeah, I, yeah, I've, I've always, I've, I've always been in hospitality, so I, I did quantity surveying at Glasgow Caledonia, and then I did my placement year with a, a small, um, private practice in Glass Wolf at Simon's.

Um, and, um, They're, you know, they, I was thrown into the deep end and I, and I've really, really enjoyed the experience. And one of their clients at the time was, um, I h g. Um, and, uh, you know, after I graduated, I went back and I worked closely with, um, sys and I hg and we ended up touching, you know, 98 properties and in three years, um, you know, soft

innovations, hardware, innovations, extensions just in the

Dan Ryan: the oh, just in the uk.

Nicky Unkles: Um, and then I moved on and went to another farm and ended up, um, packing my bags to go to Caribbean in oh seven and kind of haven't, haven't looked back and migrated north to Miami in 16 and con, uh, sorry, migrated north to Miami in 12 and continued the migration north to New York in 16. And I'm here now.

Dan Ryan: And then

if you think back to growing up in Scotland

Nicky Unkles: when

Dan Ryan: when you're homesick or you want a little touch of Scotland, what, what, what's your go-to food that you, you really miss,

Nicky Unkles: Unfortunately, um, most of the food choices in Scotland probably aren't the healthiest.

Dan Ryan: that's okay. What's your favorite?

Nicky Unkles: Uh, I love all food. There's not food, not much food I don't like.

Um, but, um, you know, Glasgow's, well known for its curries. Uh, tremendous, um, tremendous. Some of the best curries in the world are from Glasgow Chit. Ma is founded in Glasgow. No way. Yes. Really? Yes. Mother India. Um, So I, I'm a big fan of s Scottish cuisine. Yeah. Chinese and Indian food, fish and chips. I'll have it all.

Scottish is everything.

Yeah.

Um,

okay, so

Dan Ryan: back to Glasgow Caledonia University. How old were you when you finished?

Nicky Unkles: Uh, early twenties.

Dan Ryan: Early twenties. Okay.

Nicky Unkles: So

Dan Ryan: So the 48 year old Nikki that I'm talking to, sitting across from right now, if you were to magically appear in front of your early twenties self, what advice do you have for yourself?

Nicky Unkles: to Um,

Dan Ryan: I

Nicky Unkles: probably would've got out to the, I probably would've got out to the states sooner.

Really? Yes.

There's just so much opportunity here.

Dan Ryan: mm-hmm. So just pack up your bags

and go

Nicky Unkles: to my younger Nikki. Yes.

Dan Ryan: And where would you have gone

to?

Nicky Unkles: Oh, probably New York. There's just, I mean, it's not called Atlanta of opportunity for nothing. There really is so much opportunity, and if you want something, just go and

Dan Ryan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I love that. That's been, that's

Nicky Unkles: awesome.

Yeah.

Dan Ryan: I, I feel like we don't hear that enough anymore. Yeah. Oh, well thank you. Thank you. Welcome. I wish you came here earlier too. Um, if people wanna learn more about you or coming, how can they get in touch

Nicky Unkles: or learn

more?

yeah, reach out to me on LinkedIn. If I, if I, if I, if I think you're not an ax murderer, I'll, I'll, I'll get back to you.

Yeah. But yeah, LinkedIn gives me some, some sense of privacy, so, uh, yeah, please. Anyone that's looking for work or advice, yeah, reach out, say hello. Anyone that's looking for a good project manager, I'll, uh, I'll give Dan my cell number and you can pick up with him directly.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. Well, and then actually that reminds me if there are other companies, I, because you're still on the acquisition path,

Nicky Unkles: correct?

I, I, I believe, yeah. Derek and John are, yeah.

Dan Ryan: So if there

Nicky Unkles: are

there,

Dan Ryan: if there's any companies that are looking to be acquired or grow through acquisition, you're welcoming those calls

too.

Nicky Unkles: I would have to d direct that back to, uh, Derek and, and John.

Dan Ryan: Okay. We'll, we'll direct it back to them. Maybe I'll get them on one day and they can, they can discuss it. Um, well thank you for bringing me to your office. It's been so fantastic. I really appreciate your time. I know how busy you are. Opening up all these properties. So thank you,

Nicky Unkles: Thank you, Dan. Thank you for having me.

Dan Ryan: Yeah, and then I also just want to thank all of our listeners.

Um, without you and our growth every single week, we wouldn't be sitting here right now. So thank you. And if this has changed your idea of hospitality or how to deliver hospitality or luxury or ultra luxury hospitality, please pass it

Nicky Unkles: along

Dan Ryan: and thank you.