Defining Hospitality

Dan Ryan: [00:00:00] Hello. Today's guest is a writer, a reporter and world traveler, author of the moon, Boston travel guide, hospitality beat reporter at Skift, ladies and gentlemen, Cameron Esperanto. Hey Cameron. How are you?
Cameron Sperance: Hey, Dan. Thanks for having me doing well. Thank you for joining. I want to say and share with everyone that since the beginning of the pandemic, um, it's been so like, Crazy and turmoil filled for our whole industry, but one of the bright spots that have come out of it are just new relationships.
And I really value the relationship that I've developed with you as we were kind of navigating this whole thing, or you were, and I was, and we were able to connect on a, on a much deeper level. And I think that the other thing that I love about doing this podcast in particular is I get to speak to people who have dream jobs that I would love to aspire to have, and to be a travel writer like [00:01:00] you have been, um, and are, um, I'm envious of that.
So like, how did you get into writing travel guides from Memphis and moving up to Boston? And that was very fortuitous. Um, I think it is. Coming at, it just happened to reach out to the publishing company at the right time. Um, they were looking to do a book on Boston and they, they just happened to like where I was coming from as a person who moved up from the south, um, fell in love and bought with Boston and going to school there and then just never left.
So kind of making it my adopted second home and or hometown rather. And, uh, it, it, it was, I hate to say it was just pure luck and also just having kind of some experience in writing for local publications here in Boston. Um, yeah, it, it, it, it went in my favor. Thank goodness. And so how did I choose the road to covering our [00:02:00] industry and being such, doing such great coverage of it as well?
How did you choose hospitality or how did it choose. Yeah. I mean, I, I definitely did not start out thinking I was going to be a hotel reporter. My, uh, I interned for the celebrity gossip column here in Boston for the Boston bureau. Uh, it was called the inside track and there were track gals. Ghelfi Laura reposal who, uh, both remain very near and dear friends.
And, uh, they, they just kinda taught me how to, how to make deadlines and B kind of keep an eye out on a good quote. And so it kind of laid the fundamentals for what I hope is isn't enjoyable reading at Skift. It is enjoyable. And I want to get to that cause the content you, you and your team are creating is, has just been super informative.
And I, and I love reading it for a lot of different reasons which I'll get into. Um, but going from Memphis to Boston to celebrity, like how did you choose hospitality? And the question I always [00:03:00] ask is in all of these explorations that you've done in writing the travel guide for Boston, um, like how do you define hospitality?
Yeah, definitely. I, I mean, like, I, I think it's that Southern, um, route, but also like in the, in the last year, seeing how hotels. Responded. Um, I think ultimately it just boils down to providing that home away from home experience and just kind of with care and compassion and service with a smile. That's what hospitality is for me.
And I think it's more important than ever, especially as even pre pandemic, you started seeing other travel sectors kind of remove that element. Um, I, I feel like everyone was kind of complaining about how the airlines got pretty bare bones for awhile in terms of service and things like that. And hotels.
I mean, even now it was at the Alice, uh, conference a month ago and it was asking people of different hotel executives, like what keeps you up at night? And, um, one of the top answers was how do we [00:04:00] maintain breakfast service? And I think like that's kind of a good indication of. Yeah, I think services have been paired back in the pandemic for sheer financial survival, but at the end of the day, they're still kind of keeping an eye out on how to kind of provide that sort of homey feel, even if it's just a grab and go breakfast, uh, box at your local limited service hotel.
So I love the home away from home and thinking about, and as you were saying that I had pictures of Graceland and the jungle room, and I was really disappointed when I went to Graceland and we got to see the whole first ground, the first floor I wanted to see upstairs. I wanted to see how Elvis lived there.
It's funny with Graceland there. I swear like every like five or 10 years, they would do like a drawing of like you could go upstairs. Um, so I think, I think there are a limited number of people who've been able to go beyond the shag carpeting of [00:05:00] ground floor to up in whatever those mysterious rooms. Um, well, his idea of home was, is just like wild and so different from anything that I would ever consider home.
Um, but also enjoyable to walk through. And I'd love to get up to that second floor. Um, but when you think about home, away from home and coming from Memphis and that idea of Southern hospitality, like what do you look for? And maybe it's because you're noticing that things are missing now. Like what do you, what do you strive for to really feel comfortable when you're on the road?
I think, you know, I'm not necessarily the person who needs turn down service or things like that. It really comes down to just sort of the people elements and like, is it, are you getting kind of that warm greeting, even if you're checking in at like 11 o'clock at night, um, That I think it's really, you can tell if people are being treated well, um, at the hotel they're working at [00:06:00] and that kind of permeates through how they're engaging with their guests.
And so that's sort of what I look for. If, um, if they're smiling, I'm smiling and that's kinda, but also who doesn't love nice bedding and a great breakfast spread. Um, I don't know if we can say breakfast buffet anymore because of the pandemic, but, uh, back in the day I love those two. Yeah. Um, you said something in that about a smile for a smile and just, and it's the people and treating others how you'd be treated.
Um, one of the things that I've noticed in my budding relationship with you and also like paying attention to Skift more in every media outlet that I can, um, just so I can have a better understanding of the world is there's this theme that's been going through. And I see it in the hotels, the hotel operators that I'm talking to, also the entrepreneur.
And I also see it with you where there's this idea of, okay, how can we bring up the people who [00:07:00] are below us on the org chart, right? How can we coach them up and make leaders out of them? And I, there were a couple of times you were, you were asking me, Hey, do you have any ideas on this particular subject?
Because I really want to give, uh, an up and coming writer an opportunity to run with something. And I feel like that's a tremendous opportunity within hotels and just life. And it's just giving to others and helping coach up others. Um, tell me about your experience and how you guys do that at Skift.
Cause like, I, I love that. I always had this vision of, you know, people in the, in the, in the reporter bullpen, like at the daily planet and Jamison smoking the cigar and everyone's kind of covering their own story, but I can really get this feeling and maybe it's a hospitality thing where you're sharing, uh, with your team and very open about it.
And I appreciate it. Yeah. I mean, W one of the many things that I have loved working for Skift is, I mean, they definitely will take a chance on people. And [00:08:00] I mean, it's a huge opportunity if you so decide to run with it. I mean, kind of rewinding a little bit. I didn't just go from like interning at a celebrity gossip column to becoming a hotel reporter.
Like I then went out and I had like a temporary gig with the business section at the Herald. Um, and then that freelanced a bit and then started reporting on commercial real estate. So it kind of all built up to then where my editor reached out and was like, Hey, have you thought about, um, Covering the hotel beat.
And I mean, case in point with how just kind of the, the culture is at Skift is sure. I had covered commercial real estate broadly and done some hotel reporting as well. I loved it. I loved the people in it, but I had never done it full time, or like, that is my beat. So, I mean, I think, um, just as my editor kind of took a chance on me and, you know, let's see if he can actually like narrow his scope and just focus on the hotel industry.
Um, that's what I've liked to do this past year and a half that I've been with the company is [00:09:00] as we've had people come in after me. Whether it's interns or contributing writers, et cetera. Um, I try to kind of pay it forward as much as I can still being abrupt of what I think is relatively new. Um, and just, you know, if they're looking for sources or looking for story ideas, um, as you know, I come knocking on your door, just like, kind of what are you hearing in the market, et cetera.
And, uh, yeah, it's just kind of, especially at a time like this, we're all kinda in it together. And, uh, and you really F you really feed like, and you really feed me when you reach out to me like that, because I oftentimes I'm dumb. I don't know the answer, but I know so many people within our industry and I love connecting you with them because again, it's about shortening other people's journeys.
I mean, Dan, you don't really know the answer. Let's, let's put that up there.
Yeah. Well, I've been doing it a long time and I love this industry and I can't imagine myself anywhere else going. [00:10:00] So that time, when your editor gave you the chance, right? A year and a half ago, you started just pre Panda. Correct? I started like two weeks after it had been declared a pandemic. So I, uh, I always joke with people.
I took those jobs, thinking it was going to travel the world and up until about a month ago, um, I was traveling mainly to my living room. Um, but it's been, you know, it's been a very, it's been a huge opportunity, uh, a tremendous opportunity. And as I alluded to in the beginning of our conversation, one of the frustrating things about this industry, which I love so much and I live it, I breathe.
It it's like I can't escape it. I don't want to escape it. Oftentimes at the time I read things and the wall street journal or the real deal, or the New York times, or you name all of the publications, financial times about our industry in particular, it's always six months after the fact. [00:11:00] So going back to, when you started two weeks before pandemic, what was the opportunity and how did your, how did your editor or your boss, um, what was the opportunity he presented to you and like, how did you feel when it came to, when it came to you or she, I don't want to assume.
Um, so yeah, I mean, I think where I lucked out is even when I was at my last publication, um, I kept coming back to the hotel industry just because. I have a couple of sources here at BU Boston university school of hospitality. Um, pinnacle advisory is kind of a bigger hospitality advisory firm here in town.
Um, so like we have kind of, I think we punch above our weight maybe as far as hotel journalism opportunities in Boston at the local level. So I think that's how I kind of got to build up a little bit of my, um, credit that, that I knew what things like rev par [00:12:00] were and things like that. Um, so I didn't come in completely green, but I think the opportunity was why, um, why don't you Excel with like, kind of a more narrowed focus rather than, you know, back in the day I was covering the lab markets, the warehouse, like kind of, if it was any type of commercial real estate, I was covering it.
And I feel like it was kind of very surface level, but it was hard to like dig deep into this and the. You know, it's strange to say it's, it's a huge opportunity that there was such a catastrophic downturn, but I mean, if there was a time to learn a lot about the hotel industry, it's been over the last 16, 17 months.
Sure. I totally agree. And I will say the, when I first, when I first started a company in our industry that helped in our industry, it was 2001, August 28th. So I guess that's oh, it's 20 years ago. Right? And it two weeks before September 11th, which everything kind of [00:13:00] stopped, it all came back. But it was a great time because while everyone was putting out fires and trying to think about what's next people did have time to take, pick up the phone and take that call and, and build relationships.
And that whole person to person, people, people think that you, that you mentioned, this is all relational. Everything we do is relational, and this is a fabulous time. Be able to forge those new relationships and get in here. But going back to my question that whole six month lag thing, I've really appreciated the things that you've been presenting on because it's happening much more, much quicker.
Now there's not a real time thing because people are trying to do deals, but how have you been able to shrink that gap from the six month mainstream thing that we read about to what you and your teams are doing? Yeah. I mean, to be honest, that's one of the several reasons I jumped and came to Skift is I really, um, [00:14:00] I, I would do breaking news pieces, but I was kind of more in that camp of let's do like a very well thought out deep dive, six months after the fact, I felt like breaking news.
Was a little bit of my, my weakness. So I viewed it as like, if I'm going to go to skiff, like, I think like this is a great opportunity to sort of like build up of like reporting on the news as it comes out. Um, my editor, uh, is always about like writing that great day, two story the day it's happening. So I think there's kind of an expectation as well, but, um, whether you like it or not, you're going to be doing this.
You need to kind of be able to kind of do thoughtful analytics and analysis as it's happening in real time. So, um, and it's been, I'm sure if you read this stories the first few weeks that I'm at Skift, they're, they're not, um, hopefully they're, there's been improvement since then. Well, they're better than anything I could ever.
Right. So, and again, [00:15:00] just gaining inspiration and kind of looking up to the work that you're doing. Like it helps inform how we're here and what's happening right now.
I think something that I wasn't doing, like on a regular basis, our quarterly earnings calls and mean, like, those can be pretty bland because if you listened to them, I mean, like, they all kind of, I swear each executive team picks up theme and like they all kind of follow it each earning season. So you kind of have to find a way to spice it up or like kind of link things.
And, um, that's usually what I try to do is kind of wait until like the Q and a comes out and like, you'll usually find something in there that, um, that, that ends up being a story. I mean, like Hyatt, for instance, they, they just made their big acquisition was with apple, but a week or two beforehand, um, they were hinting it on the earnings call, but they were looking to expand more into Europe.
So I think like that's kind of an example of, I I'm doing that the hotel side, but [00:16:00] Skift is doing it across a lot of travel beats. We have great team with, with airlines and global tourism and corporate travel. So yeah. That's us. I love it. And then if, so, going back to, when you're starting there, the pandemic hasn't been named, you get this assignment from your editor, how are you feeling?
How did he make you feel comfortable? Like how did, how does your editor get the best out of you? And like, how can that tie into this overall idea of what hospitality is and in your mind? Yeah, I mean, I think it's at that point, so when I did come, it ha the pandemic was there. Um, it, it was, it was very new.
Um, there was a lot of uncertain date, but I mean, it was literally just kinda, he, he made a lot of great introductions on my behalf of, you know, this is who you need to know it, Hilton, Marriott, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and just kinda. [00:17:00] Kind of like anyone it's sort of, you have a job to do while also kind of making sure everyone's doing okay mentally, because we had never seen anything like that.
So it was struck a very careful balance. Um, because I mean, at the end of the day, we're also, we're there for a reason and that's to report on this industry. Yeah. And then take me to that newsroom or virtual or in-person where you guys are coming up with ideas and capturing them and saying, okay, run with that.
And how did that, how do you guys come up with the ideas and the themes and, and quarterback them out? Like I'm very intrigued by that process. Yeah. I mean, in the depths of the pandemic we were having. Like daily edit meetings, um, uh, just kind of like what's what's happening, et cetera, et cetera. We have a document that kinda outlines what everyone's working on.
And I mean, like any business we have kind of the, the chat channels going. I was like, do you have a [00:18:00] source for here, et cetera? Because I mean, there was also so much crossover with the pandemic. I mean, if corporate travel or business travel is down, airlines and hotels are both feeling that, um, cruises, that industry goes on hiatus.
Um, at the time south Florida hotels were not doing great. And it's before people suddenly are everyone's in mass going to, um, south Florida for winter vacation. But I mean, it, it, it all links together. So I mean, it, it, again goes back to if I was going through. Move to a new company. It was kind of a, I hate to say great time.
Cause it, it wasn't on as far as just the catastrophe that was happening in travel. But, um, there was a quick comradery builds, um, early on because everyone's just kind of helping each other out and trying to get it, get the, um, best news that we can out for our, uh, or I guess most informed news that we can out to our readers.
Cause it, it, it's more important than ever. [00:19:00] Yeah. And then, so I, I, you know, I'm envisioning waking up at four in the morning, listening to these glorious earnings calls. Right. And just so amazed in the morning, even better. So two of them are friends in Paris, so that's, that's the, uh, you know, you're, you're down in the ditch.
Your that's, your yeoman's work. You're you're, you're looking for your story there. And then on the other side, you said something earlier, you used the word spice, like the dream is to be traveling all over to cover our industry. But as you're experiencing it. So like, do you still see that spice out there?
Is that it, can you get spicy? When, when are you going to be getting more spicy and getting on the road more? I know you've started, but what, what's your thinking? Yeah, I mean, I, we just had, um, if at the end of July, the ALIS conference, so that was kind of my, as I joked around with people like my debutante ball of, uh, finally getting out on the road and that was good to get to [00:20:00] LA, see a couple of different hotels.
Um, yeah, I mean, that's kind of the, not to promote, but if you read the pages of skiff right now, I mean, the big question mark is I think everyone thought we were going in a certain linear path with momentum of getting back on the road. And I'll Delta variance is kind of putting a giant question mark over that.
I was chatting with someone earlier who was saying his company is, um, they're, they're starting to issue more, uh, or kind of roll back travel. Um, Restriction or not rolled that travel restrictions, reinforced travel restrictions, I should say. Um, so we'll see, I think, but you can still get, uh, spicy and I think you can still get great feature stories out there.
Um, I think it's interesting right now, um, I, I thought our story today about kind of the, the outlook of membership clubs in the vein of Soho house and Rosewood, which is based in Hong Kong, et cetera. Um, that, that was pretty spicy. Cause we're basically, [00:21:00] I love reading that and actually I want to get there in a few minutes because it's one of the other things I'm hearing about is just this idea of authenticity as being your true self, as you're dealing with guests or making others feel comfortable, but then there's this whole movement of exclusivity and like, how does that all play off each other?
But before we get there, um, because I want to go back to making. Others feel comfortable because I think that's really what the, the crux of all this. So as a reporter, when you call certain contacts, are they oftentimes, I would assume just because like watching TV, they're a bit standoffish. How do you, how do you make your, the people you're talking to feel comfortable so that they can open up to you?
And so then you can kind of dig deeper and, and make them feel safe, but also get spicy. Yeah. I mean, I think what's interesting in moving to the [00:22:00] hotel industry and I had a couple of, um, acquaintances and friends and just kind of their reporting industry who had kind of hopped around to different beats.
And a couple of people said, um, when they were covering hotels, it was the most fun, like the personalities were just next level. And, and, and so I think there's kind of a built in, um, Attitude that people generally not to stereotype, but it has been my experience of when I call up a hotel executive there, they tend to get spicy right out of the gate.
Then back in the day when I was calling like a warehouse developer and like, it was just w who had a different type of spice to them. Let's not discount or diminish warehouse developers, but it's just, I think it's a different animal. Um, but I mean, the other thing too is you gotta be on your phone quite a bit.
You gotta stay in touch with people and build genuine. [00:23:00] Connections with people. It's not just, Hey, can you talk to me solely for a soundbite it's, you know, generally building and, and I mean, I, again, because I was coming in, um, for the first time to cover hotels exclusively, I, I have kind of leaned on people a little bit more, um, purely just on, Hey, am I getting this right?
Does this sound a certain way to you? Or am I misreading this entirely? Um, so that's been kind of a good way to build up comradery or just kind of trust, I guess, is the better word there. Um, in, in trying to ask these people to, to educate me at the same time, help me with the story. Yeah. I, I totally feel that because when you say that there, there are these bigger and larger than life personalities that are drawn to this industry.
One of the things that I always find, and I say this a lot. I feel like everyone who's involved in our industry wants to design, build own, operate a [00:24:00] bar that they could have their friends over. They can all drink out, they can get comfortable, get loose and just kind of be real, be authentic, be genuine.
But there's also this, uh, thread that ties through it, all of curiosity. Right. And I think you being a reporter, you're wired as curious, but I do genuinely believe that in order to be successful in delivering hospitality, you have to really be curious about who's in front of you at this given moment and it doesn't have to be in a hotel or a restaurant.
It could be anywhere. And how do you feed that curiosity for you? Yeah, I mean, it's, I think, again, it's kind of looking at when I look at my story ideas. I mean, I try to not fall into the same, um, I guess themes. So, I mean, we do a Monday deals and development briefing, which kind of, I think what's my real estate [00:25:00] appetite and kind of what I had been doing for a while of just sort of transactions investments, et cetera, et cetera.
Um, but then, you know, it would be easy to kind of make that every story of the day, that week. However, um, just in, in being curious, you then got to go into different themes. Is it labor? That's a big thing. We did a story earlier in the pandemic, um, that I, I I've been thinking about revisiting and it was about like hospitality students and, you know, what are you thinking when you're graduating into this?
You know, what have a world right now and, and how do you, how do you cope with that? Um, so I, I think it's just kind of. Basically kind of recognizing that the hospitality is not just like one door, there are plenty of doors to open and kind of figure out what the story is there. Because I mean, there's sustainability, there's labor, there's supply chains and logistics.
[00:26:00] And I mean, we could go on and on and on. It's just, don't don't trap yourself or box yourself in to, to any it's a microcosm for everything going on. And maybe as it's a more volatile segment of real estate, um, you can really learn so much from the hot, the peaks and the valleys, and maybe you get higher peaks and higher valleys than other businesses.
Yeah. I mean, it, it's fascinating. Uh, on the one hand, you can kind of still have that commercial real estate story of you're trying to get maximum returns on investment in building one of these things, but then at the same time, kind of going back to that, um, hospitality school story, um, what just like struck me with that is kind of the compassionate humanity of it is this is just, uh, you know, a group of students who at the end of the day, they want to make people, people feel great, um, in their daily lives.
And I didn't even, it's just like that's, that's, that's endearing. And it's just everything in between that. And I've heard [00:27:00] that many people who were talking to those recent graduates from the hospitality schools and also just people that want to get involved in hospitality from interns to. Day jobs, hourly salary.
The whole gamut now is the best time to get involved in our industry because you will have so much opportunity and you will have more than enough rope to hang yourself with so to speak. And you will, you will be able to take risks and, and just learn on the job and go. Are you saying that? Yeah, definitely.
And I mean, like, what was fascinating in, I've kind of watched this happen over the last year and more recently is, um, some of these hospitality schools I think have realized these are very transferable skills. So some of them have started adding programs related to senior and student housing. Um, now that you have kind of, we work adding, um, [00:28:00] however we work comes back as, um, which I think is going to have more of a important role as, than ever in the concept of like the future of work there's there was always a hospitality element to we work that I think people that's why it made it so successful and popular, um, pre pandemic.
And I, I mean, it, it just kind of runs the gamut. There's so many different, um, Industries out there that are trying to get a little bit more hospitable that I think this has been a wake-up call of just like how the, the tentacles of hospitality span out into so many different industries. Yeah. Um, I'm also jealous and envious that you've written travel books because to me that seems like dream job.
Um, how did you stumble into that? Because I think everyone out there, maybe, maybe not, I believe everyone out there in some way would always want to be a travel writer. Yeah. It it's. Um, it was sort of in my period between, um, [00:29:00] Going from the Herald and celebrity gossip and, and kind of broad business to then I was freelancing for anyone who would have me and it just kind of living online and seeing what would come and the publisher, um, proposal we're looking at doing a Boston travel guide, any local writers, interested, et cetera, et cetera.
So literally just responded to kind of a classified ad saying, I'm, I'm a local writer. Um, I love travel and it kind of snowballed from there. Uh, sent a couple of sample chapters in and, um, I, I was doing some freelance marketing for a local hotel at the time as well. And I think like that kind of, and I was doing sort of internally for guests, like travel like blogs and guides and recommendations, et cetera.
So it all kind of came together of proving that, uh, I hopefully know what I'm talking about when it comes to Boston. Now in that image. Cause you did two guys, you did [00:30:00] one Boston in general. And then one that was like, I think bars and restaurants or nightlife. So in, in both in those, both of those two works and doing all of your exploration, you're out, you're investigating, right.
You're you're experiencing, what do you think was the, what was the coolest experience in from both of those, uh, from your, from your experience? It was very fascinating to kind of, cause when it came out, I was probably five five-year, five or six years removed from college. And it was interesting revisiting the places that like in college, I was like, this is like the end all be all.
And then going back as somewhat of an adult and being like, well, you know, it's maybe this one won't make it instant, final edition of the book, hopefully a little bit wiser by now. Um, no, it, it was, there was a little bit of that, but it was also, um, I think a fun way to get into. Even deeper into parts of the Boston that I had explored, just thinking like, [00:31:00] oh, this is a tourist trap, et cetera, et cetera.
And like finally doing those things finally walking the full freedom trail and it was kind of a great calming. Exactly, exactly. And I went to power of his house. I went to Lexington and Concord, so it was really, uh, eyeopening to get, to have that full like tourist experience and learn a lot about, about the city and then kind of frame it away where it wasn't so hokey.
And um, so like, yes, these are the places you should still visit and, you know, Cranky. Bostonian's poopoo that you're taking up a spot on the sidewalk because you're walking the freedom trail. Okay. And then, so using the freedom trail as an example or not, but of all the things that you did hokey or not, and something the cream that rose to the top, what was the most surprising and coolest experience that you had, like as an actual place or tourist [00:32:00] attraction or whatever this is going to sound like?
So, um, so like travel writing is cool until you're like a week from deadline and you're like, oh, Jeez. I need to take a litany of photos to like, get to my editor. And there were a couple of days where it was like sunrise to sunset. I was out like going to take photos and places like that. And I remember it was like, this is like five years ago.
It was a December morning. It was like maybe seven o'clock. And I was at Walden pond. I was the only one there. Yeah. And that was really cool where it was like, this is I get it. I get like why Thoreau would have did what he did. And he went to the woods. Why existentialism was born because it was very like, it was just like so quiet.
So Chris, it was literally like, I could just get the only thing I heard were like the twigs beneath my feet. And so that was, that was really cool. I had one of my favorite English teachers growing up. He [00:33:00] just went off on throw in such an incredible way. And we really spent so much time in there and just thinking about living life deliberately and going to the woods.
And he was such a weird dude back then, right? If you really compared him to other Bostonian's at that time, he was a weird guy. He'd like make pencils. And he was just like a crafty dude that lived in the woods. How did you think about Thoreau after actually going there from maybe not knowing much about him to what's your overall impression of him now and how can we learn from him?
I mean, it, it definitely, I think it kind of was coinciding where I think a lot of people are kind of coming to this realization of, um, not to boil it down to me time, but I think there's no, please, this is all about you because I think I know where you're going. And I love in general, the concept of like, kind of doing a little self isolation and [00:34:00] thoughtfulness and meditation, or just whatever you need to do to kind of clear your clear, your mind and get focused.
I think we can all have a little thorough moment. Uh, and, and that's sort of where I, I stemmed from is I, I, I think I can be a little bit of a loner from time to time and, uh, I didn't necessarily feel as bad about it after, uh, after that December morning, close snapping photos. Wow. And then do you consider yourself a millennial?
Are you in that demographic? Yeah, I think I'm like right in the middle of it. Okay. So I feel like the row may have been the first millennial, because if you think about millennials and travel and things, it's more about experience, right? It's more about just getting out there, these digital nomads and all this, and maybe Henry David, the Roe was the first millennial millennial, couple of centuries too soon.
Yeah, that's wonderful. I have a client up there. It's a design firm called Parker Torres and their offices were right near Walden pond. And I remember [00:35:00] on two occasions, I went up there and came back and just drove through and I actually got to see all the things that. Learned about, and then, you know, you even tie it into, um, I guess even like where you're from in Memphis and the Lorraine motel and his writings on civil disobedience and, and, and it's all happening right now.
I think we could all go back and learn so much more from Thoreau. And actually now I really want to dust off my throw and because I think there's a new movement forward that I think he could be like the kernel of right. Or that we can all learn from. Absolutely. I mean, like that's kind of a huge question and travel right now is not just building back, building back better thoughtful travel.
Um, you know, it Skift the, uh, the concept of over tourism is a big one that is discussed and our CEO Rafa, uh, coined the term. [00:36:00] And it's very, uh, Uh, I think like right now, a lot of these things are, are definitely at the forefront of like, how do, how do we rebuild, especially, um, right. I think that the reports that you hear of, like, it's, it's a great time to be in Venice right now because there just aren't that many people around.
And I think like there's going to be a lot more value in, as you said, experiences and just not the, I guess, same formula. So two things on that, the, on the, over, over tourism, over tourism, um, I was just in Croatia and, you know, went down the coast and we were in Dubrovnik, which is a walled city, all super tight.
And I actually don't enjoy going to these UNESCO world heritage sites because they're just so crowded. But being there, there were no cruise ships and it was actually, it was super hot, but it was actually, I could enjoy it and walk through and. [00:37:00] Feel like Denaris from a game of Thrones, just kind of walking through, or she actually flew down and destroyed the whole city, but maybe more like Searcy walking down those shame steps without people bumping into me, all sweaty.
Um, I on flying out there, I was on the, on the flight. The flight attendant said that he had just gone to Rome and he asked before, he was like, oh, have you ever been to the Trevi fountain? And I said, oh yeah, a bunch of times. And it's always so crowded. And there's people shooting those lady things up into the air and it's just really annoying, but I want to go and I want to see the sculpture and it's amazing.
And not Piatsa. He said he, the week before he went with his mom and there were four people in the whole Piatsa. So I do think that this is a time to kind of explore. And I also heard, and I don't know if you've heard, but other cities, I think the broadening is really limiting the return of cruise ships.
Maybe only one at a time or none during the week. And I [00:38:00] heard that something about Venice. Do you know anything more about that? Because Emily Key west fandom, um, and I don't think Venice is similarly because I mean, like before the pandemic, it seemed like, correct me if I'm wrong here. Like each year there would be that like terrible YouTube video of like this cruise ship, like kind of putting the reverse thrust in and you see it like wipe out like a peer and like flood part of that as, and it's just like, yeah, I, it comes to town with Venice, with like, and everyone gets the norovirus and then can't, they can't leave, you know?
Hmm. Yeah, it would be so great to. I've only been on one cruise it's I think everyone should try it out. It's not my thing at all, not my jam. Um, but it does overwhelm a location. Yeah, I can, I can see that I was during the, um, pandemic, we were out in Provincetown and pre pandemic. They had [00:39:00] started there's one cruise ship, um, that had come in just like, I think kind of like test the waters of like what it would be like, and it wasn't even, it, it was nowhere the size of like some of these massive cruise ships you see?
But I mean, even just like a mid-sized cruise ship was kind of overwhelming to our, our fair little town at the end of Cape Cod. Totally. And also recent overwhelming of what was it? This, all the circuit party that is a circuit weekend or whatever it's called, um, it was raining. Everyone was inside and it was like ground zero for whatever phase three phase four of pandemic.
How has that. Um, so luckily we were not there for that. And I also like to, uh, strike out at some of the media. It is officially called July 4th week circuit week is just what it is known unofficially as cause, um, it's been fascinating cause we've been back to P town quite a bit. Um, and talking a couple of friends own businesses there and um, it's [00:40:00] I think if it had to happen it's thank goodness it was there where it's heavily vaccinated and kind of, I think a quick response indoor mask mandates suddenly.
And I think everyone kind of was pretty quick to be able to trace where they had been, et cetera, et cetera. Um, What's interesting too, is kind of not to plug back the vaccine efficacy. But one thing that has been going making its way around town is between that weekend and bear week, the final, the weekend after there were, I guess, 120,000 visitors to P town, um, a thousand people got it.
So the reverse way of looking at it is 119,000 people did not get it. So what's the mascot, the percentage on that, I wonder if, what that percentage in P town, if you could compare that percentage to Sturgis and the big, the motorcycle rally, I wonder, I bet you P town was a lot less transmission. Yeah, [00:41:00] exactly.
I'm sure there will be a white paper too, but that emerged from this. Oh, it's funny. Um, on bear weekend, just a funny story. My first weekend away with my wife, when we first started dating about 21, 22 years ago, we were living in San Francisco and you could only do like two nights stays up at the Russian river, but there was this one guy it was before everything was online and I could, um, you could do one night, so we could only afford one night.
So we found this one place. I said, okay, let's go there, there all these like little cabins. And it was, uh, I said, and it was non-refundable because it's one night it was a special thing. So then I, after I paid and then I said, Hey, send me the website. I looked and it was bare weekend up at this place that my wife went to.
We had the best time. It was awesome. That's what, it's a popular it's P-town equivalent is very popular. Yeah. Um, okay. So moving aside from the pandemic, cause I know that's come up a [00:42:00] lot and like we're in it. Um, Looking forward, as far as the chart, you path to spicy journalism on the, on the hospitality beat.
And that also that dream job of like being a travel writer, um, what's keeping you up at night on the path to spicy. Um, I think there is going to be a lot of tension around duke. Like how many people stick with hospitality? How many people leave either on the labor level of people who are just like, I'm tired of doing this it's long hours, et cetera, et cetera.
I'm going to take these skills and go work in an entirely different industry. I think that's kind of, um, a huge question, especially after. We've heard a lot of [00:43:00] hotel CEOs say, oh, like once the extra federal unemployment benefits laps next week now, um, it will, all of our labor problems are going to be solved.
I don't know if that's necessarily the case, but I think that's going to be there. There's a huge labor story that just continues to evolve. That's definitely keeping me up. Um, I think also there's going to be conflict at the owner level of people who are just like, I have taken this as long as I can and I am handing over the keys to whoever's gonna buy it.
And I think that's going to be a huge feeding frenzy from big brands as well as smaller ones who think, and there's one. Evidence to suggest that their thought is real, that staying smaller is better in customers respond better to that. So, um, that's one. And I also just think like the overall face of hospitality, I mean, like, what does it look like?
Um, and who were the people who are [00:44:00] making those decisions? Um, That's huge. I think, as I said, at the ALIS conference, everyone was saying the concept of a breakfast was keeping them up at night. I think housekeeping's another big one. Um, this push to contact lists. If the labor problem doesn't solve itself, do we look into robotics and automation in any way?
Um, this is in many ways of industry that I don't think has really embraced technology as much as it could. And that's, there's gonna be a lot of friction there if it, if it does. If and when, I mean, it already has with contracts, let's check in and check out. Um, if it goes a step further and the technology kind of gets to where it can do more, um, that's, that's pretty disruptive.
Yeah. I'm going to quote digital underground on that one. And I think the answer is D all of the above. I think everything is being tried right now, and it's really exciting. Uh, from [00:45:00] labor to robotics, to technology. And I don't we're, we're in this kind of like crucible trying to like figure it out right now.
I L that's amazing. And then also, you know, you go back to before the pandemic, you asked any general manager, what kept them up at night. It was whether their housekeepers were going to show up. And now I think that there's a structural labor issue. And it's really weird because if you, if you look at retail from when Amazon happened and, or online retailing, I think we lost 4 million retail jobs over the past, however many years.
And then you throw in the 5 million. I think I saw that number on the hospitality side. It's like, where did those 10 million people go? Like, what are they, where, where are they? Where are they now? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think the other thing too, though, Plug one of my colleagues works. Um, my colleague Lily, she did this piece of just kind of what's her last name so that people come up Girma um, she is our, [00:46:00] uh, our tourism reporter and she did a great piece about, you know, what happens if there's just no return of outbound Chinese travelers.
And I mean, like the kind of there's this, we don't know what's going to happen with international travel. I mean, I think everyone's kind of, if you listen to any earnings calls, like long-term guests, things are going to reopen, but I mean, how much longer can people kind of survive? I mean, you had hotels in New York city that were counting anywhere from a quarter up to a half of their business, came from international travel.
And I mean, they have to move pretty quick to make up for that. Or I also haven't seen any of the fortune 500 or even 100 companies say, okay, we're all traveling now. And I feel like we need that. Domino to fall to really see in effect. Yeah. You know, on the other thing I'm on, on this whole idea of distress, I've been w well, we'll talk about this later, because I [00:47:00] don't know anything about it, but there's this, um, an UPREIT, which I haven't heard about where he can take these assets and put them into a REIT, and then they're doing some launch on the New York stock exchange.
I just read about that somewhere. And that just seems an interesting way to like pool risk for a bunch of investors, I think. Um, and then there's this distressed hotel conference in Vegas. I just heard about in October. I don't know anything about it, but it just came across my desk. And a lot of people, I know hadn't heard anything about it.
So I feel like where everyone was kind of holding onto their assets. Um, maybe it's starting to loosen up as things start to stabilize a little bit. Yeah. I, I, I always try to ask people again, like when are we going to start to see kind of that crashing wave of default distress bargains that everyone has been like waiting in the sidelines for and the commercial mortgage backed security, like those properties that were in trouble, that that number has actually come down quite a [00:48:00] bit.
It used to be like hotels. Where are the leading source of it last year? Um, I think everyone now is sort of expecting that Q4 of this year, Q1, Q2 is going to, there's going to be some movement. Um, I mean you saw today, uh, the fed chair said that they're going to kind of pull back on some of the, the stimulus at the fed level.
Um, and I think like all signs point to you gotta, yeah, you gotta take the. Life the life raft, the training wheels, et cetera off. And just like, um, how much can this industry hold up itself? And I think that's where you're going to see. Um, as I was saying earlier, a lot of owners just to be like, you know, I'm, I'm done.
Yeah. Let the free hand as Adam Smith talked about takeover. Exactly. Um, so the other thing I wanted to check in with you on, because you had just recently written about this, it's this idea of exclusivity versus authenticity with respect to hospitality, as it pertains to Soho house [00:49:00] and Rosewood, which just said that they're launching a similar model.
So I'm a card carrying member of Soho house. I, for me, it's just great because I know I can always go there and have a table and have a meeting and it's not crowded, but I'm concerned because they just did a, they just did an IPO. Once people do that and enter the capital markets, they have to fuel growth, growth, growth, growth.
Okay. Is that, am I going to be able to get that table right now? That's my, that's my, that's how it affects me. The other one is if you look at Rosewood and Soho and kind of this model of kind of members only, and I don't know, leaving other people out because you have to big curate this guest and a certain demographic, are we missing out on that whole idea of travel and experience of others?
If we're all around our own echo chambers and what are you, what are your thoughts [00:50:00] on that? Um, I, I, I mean, I think it is as much as people are talking about exclusivity, et cetera. I think both of the, as far as hotels turning to the Soho house model, They just looked at how so, who house fair generally?
Well, during the pandemic and they're like, you know what, it would be nice to have some sort of reliable revenue stream or resilient revenue stream like that. Why not go for it? Um, and, and I, I don't think it's ever going to be like, I don't think you would ever see Marriott have as many private clubs as they do hotels, but I think it's a little bit of a, a durable division to maybe consider.
And I don't know if Marriott's actually doing it, but I know rose will look to it. The analysts that I cite in the piece, um, he kind of pointed to IHGs like next tier up loyalty program where you pay like 200 bucks a year, um, for even more, um, benefits. And as [00:51:00] like another way of like, where he basically just have like some sort of guaranteed level of income that you can bring in.
Um, but also the exclusivity part is. I in talking with Rosewood, it doesn't sound like they're going to have like hundreds of these. And one of the things I kept hearing too is as these hotel companies kind of build up their brands a little bit reverting to this model is kind of another way of almost like showing like, yeah, we might be getting bigger on the global scale, but at the end of the day, we still have this like very exclusive route to who we are.
And so, I mean, if they ended up with five, I think that's kind of, there's a little bit more of a way to kind of make this high-end than something like Soho house, which yeah, there's very valid concerns of. SoulCycle was at one point, like the most exclusive spot to spend. And then what does it, Equinox took over and through all these stories about how it [00:52:00] was kind of fun.
It was really cool. Cause so house took a huge risk. I dunno, five or eight years ago. I don't remember when, but they basically didn't renew. They didn't like the direction that the club was going and they didn't renew a bunch of people. Right. Because it wasn't like that creative, artistic, whatever. Um, they just saw it.
It was something else. They didn't renew it and that's, that's dangerous, but it's also a sign of a very strong brand when you can take a big risk like that. Yeah. And I mean like just this week they said there, um, Waiting list is higher than it's ever been. So I think they hear loud and clear. Cause I mean, during the IPO process, we were reporting about it.
Everyone, I would talk to you, but it was kind of griping of like, I can't find this spot at a table it's Soho house, et cetera, et cetera. So I think especially as more competition emerges, I think they're going to have to do something to kind of keep it, keep it as Tony as it once was. Hmm. Sorry. No, go ahead.
[00:53:00] No, you go finish your thought. No, I think what was interesting with the IPO you saw, like kind of all the markets they're considering. And I mean, like this could get to be a very, um, large entity. If they're looking at everything from Palm Springs and Portland, Oregon to Shanghai and Tokyo. So I mean like that's, I think that's a huge spectrum of what's on their radar and they have to find a way to thread the needle and make it feel just as exclusive in.
I mean, it's also a great business model because if you, even, if you just look at how sticky frequent traveler programs from points and miles and all this, like it creates this brand loyalty, that is a huge moat. But then if you're throwing in this recurring revenue where people are paying a lot of money to be a member, and also still paying and not getting discounts for things, it creates a very loyal and I would say rabid fan base.
Yeah. I mean, [00:54:00] it kind of goes back to the future of work argument. Uh, if maybe not everyone completely goes to remote work, but I mean, there's going to be a lot more people working remotely than there were before the pandemic and something like Soho house, something like the revitalized where we work. Um, obviously those are two very different concepts, but at the same time, like it does provide a spot for someone to go work for one day a week, two days a week.
However often you want to go to and, um, There's a, there, there, as we say, uh, on our edit calls, we're considering if there's a story to be written there. Is there, there, and then, okay, so thinking about that as, as you're kind of shifting to speaking about the future, what's exciting you most about the future?
Um, the idea of being able to travel again, first off is probably top of the list. Um,[00:55:00]
I think what is interesting and I, and I talked to enough, um, people of how this might get a little wonky of how inflation is actually a good thing for the travel industry and that there's been kind of a reset, needing to happen for a long time, as it relates to wages, as it relates to just kind of how everything is priced and people are treated, et cetera.
And. I think this kind of goes back to what we've been saying all along, but I think what excites me is that like this industry is I think like truly rebirthing itself across the host of things, whether it's lifestyle, hotel components that are trickling up and down brands that aren't even considered lifestyle that's house, whether it's labor, whether it's, um, what gets built, where and what concepts work, where, um, I think people are looking at [00:56:00] just it, everything and anything is on the table.
And, um, I think it's going to be very exciting to, to report on for the next couple of years on the labor side. I think it's a combination of wages. Immigration recruiting. It's it's again, it's D all of the above on the wage side, and I can connect you with them. Um, it's there's, uh, a guy named Michael Storia.
I might be pronouncing his last name incorrectly. He founded a pizza company called N pizza that out of DC, but they there's one up in New York. They're kind of growing all over the place. Uh, but he's been an outspoken advocate of raising his people's wages to attract the best. And he he's a firm believer that it's, you know, Clinton said, it's the economy, stupid it's wages, stupid.
Like you have to attract people. People need to make money and feel fulfilled. And I think with his company in particular, there is a super element of. Being fulfilled there, um, just for co core value culture wise, but also he's, he's, he's paying for it [00:57:00] as well. It's definitely, it is way too stupid, but it's also, I think, and you've heard a couple of companies say, this is learning how to market this industry is one where there is true upward mobility.
Again, going back to what we're saying, it just kind of showing people that sure. You may enter at one position, but if you stick with it, there's, there's a path to get to company headquarters and management or things like that. And, and I think like a lot of people roll their eyes when a CEO is like, I started plunging toilets and you know, a holiday in wherever and here I am, but it's true.
It is true. But I think like there's not enough of those stories, like kind of up and down the line. And I think, um, the industry really needs to. Figure out a way to do that because they're just losing too many people. But you've also said a great thing in here about how they're easily transferable skills in our hospitality industry, right?
So you could take a starting job doing [00:58:00] anything. And once you know how to really engage and listen and act upon the person in front of you to make sure that their care, you can take that anywhere. I think it's a really, it's a missing skill. I think in a lot of people, places, because people are just looking at their phones, you got to look at the person in.
Did you see the, um, story in the Washington post this week about Maggie Haberman and just kind of her whole house? She like her career. And I thought it was interesting that when she started at like the post or the daily news, I forget which, um, she was bartending a couple of nights a week and she said, that's kind of how she learned going back to your, um, how do you gain your sources trust?
She was like, that's how I kind of figured out people's skills and like getting rapport and being conversational, but also kind of drawing out what I, what I want slash need for a story. Yeah. I'm going to be interviewing some bartenders and I just, that's another amazing just, Hey, open up, tell me every, they become like psychiatrist as well.
You see the [00:59:00] world with that job. Yeah, totally. Um, so going back to when travel starts again, if you had the most plum travel writing assignment to go somewhere, where would you choose to go.
Um, right now, um,
you know, it's, I, I, I would say right now I got married right before the pandemic, so I have not gone on a honeymoon yet, and we've kind of batted around Southeast Asia and like Vietnam and Tokyo and, and kind of just doing a whole tour through Asia. And, and so I think I have to say that or else, uh, I might not be able to go home tonight if that's not like the trip at the top of my list.
Well, you brought up the, the return or not return of the Chinese tourist. When I [01:00:00] lived in Vietnam with my family, we went to cm reap, which is another UNESCO world heritage site. And it's freaking amazing. There were so many people. So once it opens up down there, that would be a great one to get.
Definitely. Definitely awesome. So I have not that I'm in division boards, but I have like a million different, uh, hotel potentials that are just kind of, the list gets longer and longer each day. Um, my wife, Alexa did extensive research. We stayed at some amazing hotels and actually my kids to this day, I forget the name of it.
I'll get it to you. Um, outside of San Marie who stayed at this hotel and they still say it was the best hamburger they've ever had nearly totally crazy. Um, don't they don't eat hamburgers everywhere. It was just on the menu and they still compare every hamburger to that hamburger. That's like when my, I called my grandmother once, uh, there was a Southern restaurant that opened here and I called my grandmother after I went and I was like, pretty sure I had the like best catfish and grits of my life in Boston.
And she like [01:01:00] hung the phone up on me.
And then, okay. So when you're on the road, what, what food do you miss the most? Um, To be honest. So I, this is such a COVID I love cooking. So when I'm traveling, I miss I'm just cooking anything because it's kind of my therapy of just kind of coming down from, you know, journalism. You don't know how your day is going to go and cooking you do.
So it's kind of just my virtual of like started a and you'll get to be, so that's kinda what I'm traveling. I'm trying to just eat whatever the local cuisine is, where I am the breakfast buffet. I try to go to a local restaurant, not just the I'm joking. Um, okay. So now, like the journey shortner question, which I'm asking everyone, I'm getting some really great answers, but if you, you know, you walked up to yourself, [01:02:00] walking out of Boston university, when you graduated, what advice would Cameron of today give the Cameron just finishing university.
Pound the pavement. So just kind of, even if they don't want your right thing, keep, keep submitting it. And eventually it'll get through wear out the shoe leather. Right? Exactly. Exactly. And never say no to any assignment. Never say no to any assignment, because again, I think the other thing that's been missing is these collisions between people and travel and yeah, we're having a, during zoom, but we're missing the time of just bumping into people and learning from them.
Yeah. I mean like, yeah. Case in point it's I was at the ALIS conference and just meeting certain people had, like, I've already seen a couple of instances of tangible results from that. And it's just [01:03:00] the power of in-person is, is very real. I couldn't agree more. Okay. So, uh, Cameron, where can people connect with you?
How can they. Yeah. Uh, so I am on Twitter at Cameron spirits and, uh, on Instagram at cam spirits. And you can email me if you have any tips@csatskift.com. Great. And then, uh, the company website for Skift is skift.com gifted.com. So, yeah. All right, cool. And then any other blogs or websites or anything else that you see your work?
I would say go to Skift. That's that's me. That's where you're, you'll find me usually about a story a day. So, um, wonderful. Well, I'm checking it out. So, uh, Cameron, I just want to say thank you so much for your time. I know how busy you are. Thank you. No, thank you, Dan. It's a pleasure. It's an honor. Uh, now you're making me blush, uh, and thank you to our [01:04:00] listeners.
I hope that this chat with Cameron has evolved your ideas on hospitality, and if you learn something, please. Share it, uh, thank you everyone. We'll see you next time.