Defining Hospitality

Dan Ryan: Today's guest is an innovator organizer, hotelier industry leader in demand, keynote speaker, founder of the Philadelphia real estate council. And I'm a big fan of the independent lodging Congress, founder, and managing partner of the Len rock group.
Andrew Bennett. Welcome Andrew.
Andrew Benioff: Thanks for having me, Dan. Appreciate it.
Dan Ryan: It's so good to have you here. Number one, as a friend, I love talking to my friends, but also I love that so many of my friends are inspirations to me [00:01:00] and what you've created as far as my main interaction with you through the independent lodging council, uh, of icon independent laundry Congress, and how you've really set a vision and touched upon all of the things that create hospitality, because it's not just hotels.
Um, I'm just proud to be a part of it. And I am so grateful for the work that you are doing and have
Andrew Benioff: done. Thank you. That's very kind of you. Um, one of the reasons that I love doing, uh, ILC indie Congress is. Hearing that I'm able to, you know, um, inspire other people that it's lovely. Um, it's a really great feeling and, uh, appreciate it.
And you were on our advisory board for a number of years and loved having you on. And even when, while you've not been on the advisory board as you're rolled off because of term limits that you've been, uh, energetic and helping us and assisting in so many ways. So thank you so much.
Dan Ryan: Thank you. And then I'm going to give the [00:02:00] thanks right back to you because the first time I ever actually did an interview was with mark.
He's still well at one of the, uh, at the independent lodging, uh, Congress in, um, Brooklyn. And we did it with the cameras and everything. It was so much fun. And then you've given me the opportunity to do a lot of those, um, Instagram live interviews. And it's kind of gotten us to where we are right now. So I also thank you as well.
Andrew Benioff: Amazing. I'm glad. I'm glad I can be.
Dan Ryan: But it's also, and what I've seen in a beat, a drum that you've beat beaten with the independent lodging Congress too, is, um, we all get out of it, what we put into it. Right. And it's really like, you have a vision in a, in a, in a path you're on, but you're also open to feedback and Hey, that's a great idea, run with it.
And I, and I appreciate that. And I have a feeling that that's going to help define and spell out what your next, well, my main question is for this on the podcast, but like, how do you define hospitality [00:03:00] entry?
Andrew Benioff: Well, um, for me, hospitality working, you know, I'm a long time. Uh, I spent a lot of time in the hospitality business and operations and finance, uh, and uh, now I'm a part in, uh, in the ownership group in a number of, uh, hospitality, uh, properties and working on a number of others.
Uh, for me, uh, you know, uh, hospitality is partially defined by sort of what, one of the things that Danny Meyer once said, actually at Indy Congress. And I'm sure he said it in other places as well, but he sort of, he, he took hospitality and service and, and, and, uh, bifurcated them and said that, you know, service is the act of serving, uh, you know, bringing over a cup of coffee or providing a guest room or bringing a guest luggage and so forth.
But, um, hospitality is the feeling that a, um, empathetic, [00:04:00] uh, employee gives to the customer. When they're interacting. And so, you know, it's that hospitality, you can have great service without hospitality. Um, it's difficult to have real hospitality without good service. Um, but, but it's, it's really that, that feeling.
And, and, um, I think it's of utmost importance. Um, and, and then the second thing, I, I think about a lot when I'm talking about hospitality or thinking about one of our projects or something that I'm involved in is something that I learned when I was at the Ritz-Carlton hotel company, which is a huge attention to detail.
Um, and. This doesn't necessarily this isn't, I guess this is sort of part of defining hospitality, but it's not necessarily the, the actual, uh, definition, but, but, um, I think that, that if you're a true hotelier and you're providing an experience and it really doesn't matter what level of experience it doesn't have to be a five star five diamond [00:05:00] experience like Ritz Carlton offers, it could be four-star could be even three-star.
Um, and you can have true hospitality to any of these properties. Um, but that attention to detail is I think something that, uh, a lot of, a lot of owners and operators forget in the long run and it's also, uh, it's a lot of work. And so I think people, um, you know, tend to maybe start off with their, you know, uh, with the right intention, but then sort of drops off.
So that attention to detail, I think, is of paramount importance. So.
Dan Ryan: To hear that idea of an extraordinary attention to detail and to kind of push that together with this empathetic feeling and kind of pulling service out of it. Um, I heard you say that it's the, the, that attention to detail is very difficult, but the conversations that I'm having and now that I'm really paying attention to all of this, sometimes those little bits of [00:06:00] detail are not that difficult.
It could be staying at a friend's house with an orchid next to your bed and the guestroom, or a bottle of water on a tray with a, with a napkin. Like there's just these little intentional touches that I'm hearing about from a lot of different people that are not actually difficult. And that's kind of an outcome of all of these conversations is okay.
We think that you have to be a Ritz Carlton or a four seasons, but there's so many of these little things that can make such a huge difference.
Andrew Benioff: Yeah, no, I totally agree. And you don't have to be a Ritz-Carlton or four seasons or a Rosewood or name any of the other luxury brands in hospitality. You don't have to be one of them, uh, to have an extraordinary sense of, uh, uh, attention to detail, excuse me.
Um, and I think it's, um, it comes from the top down and I've worked for a lot of different general managers and a lot of different leaders. Um, and one thing that I've learned is that if the leader is invested, whoever that leader is then, and, and, [00:07:00] and he, or she can make that flow through, down to the people that they work with and the people below them and so forth, you create a culture of attention to detail and hospitality.
And when that leader doesn't do that, and then I think that, um, you can see it. I just stayed in a hotel recently on a trip when dropping off, um, a couple of my, uh, children at college. And, um, we stayed in hotel in a major city in north. And it was a really cool well-designed hotel. I thought the design was great, but there was a ton of things.
I mean, a ton, a long list of items that were wrong, especially with the cleanliness of our room. And that's an attention to detail thing. And so I can tell you that, that, um, if I went and interviewed that general manager, my guess is that didn't happen. Just the guests before me. There were a lot of things in that room that were, uh, issues before I checked in.
And before the guests, before me checked in and the attention to detail goes to, do you have a [00:08:00] preventive maintenance program? And are you, you know, are your housekeepers actually reporting when they see an issue in the room or is it just, I'm just going to clean the room and get out of there? There's, there's a lot of little things that goes into training and so forth.
And so, um, if you're passionate about hospitality and you're passionate about. Running a really amazing operation, no matter what level it is, you know, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 star. It doesn't really matter. You can still pay attention and have that attention to detail for small things. And I think it's just really, really important.
Um,
Dan Ryan: I think that as you were talking about that culture of detail and it brought me back to one of my top 10 experiences in The Bahamas, I stayed at this place in Harbor island called the rock house, and it's a small 10 room independent hotel, but the owner, I think his name was Don. I can't remember. I think I don't remember, but he would be around like [00:09:00] making sure the pillows are right on the, on the sofa, making sure that everyone was cared for, but it was just like these little, little touches.
And the, as you talk about detail, I'm also drawn to, uh, Some of my best experiences of the delivery of hospitality. Like when I get a great moment, Casa at like sushi Yasuda or something like that up in Manhattan, it's the detail is so amazing. And I know that you shared with me that when you started your hospitality journey, you were an apprentice in Japan.
And how much do you think that Japanese experience? Well, first of all, tell us about that Japanese experience and, and how that may have influenced you because I'm hearing some great stories in our, of people in our industry that start at the bottom, whether it's a bellman or a front desk, and then work their way up to general manager.
And you know, now you're in development. So I'd love to hear about that Japanese experience and how that may have influenced you.
Andrew Benioff: Sure. So I started, um, w w I spent [00:10:00] about four and a half years in Japan when I was younger after college. And, uh, Started, uh, like a lot of people did at that time, teaching English in Japan.
And then I eventually, um, decided I was really interested in hospitality and for some connections, I got a, uh, a formal apprenticeship at a small Japanese in, in, in Japan, uh, traditional Japanese, inter called dual comp. So I went to a, um, it was about a 15 room con in Hatami Japan, which is a, Tommy is known for its Hotsprings, it's a resort town and there are many, many neo-con in autonomy.
Some of them are 10 or 15 rooms all the way up to, you know, 150 200 rooms. Uh, neo-con usually you'll count are smaller. They're usually under a hundred matter of fact, they're probably mostly under 50 or 75 case. Um, and, uh, Getting an apprentice position at one of these, uh, type of ins is, is not easy. And I was [00:11:00] in, in the entire city of autonomy.
I don't know how many people are in autonomy, but, um, I was the only foreigner that had a, um, uh, uh, an apprenticeship position and apprenticeship. There is sort of like a call you guide you in, uh, they don't, they don't call you guys and they call me by my name, but, um, but I am, just means foreigner, a person who's not Japanese.
And so, um, you know, that kind of an apprenticeship, even though I was paid, I was paid less than what is minimum wage here in the U S it's sort of like a, a marginally paid slave position. You, you work very, very long hours. It was the hardest job I've ever had by far. Um, you know, we were probably working 13, 14 hours a day, uh, for, for.
Not a lot of money and, um, we're almost non-essentials and, um, got a break in the, you know, we started at 6:00 AM and we worked till probably 11:00 PM and got a break of a couple of hours in the middle of the day. And all I did [00:12:00] during my break was sleep because I was so exhausted. Uh, but I did everything from cleaning toilets and bathtubs in rooms to making the bed in Japan, uh, at our neo-con we didn't have any beds.
We had a futon, which are the Japanese, uh, sort of mattresses roll out on onto the, onto the floor. And, and so in a traditional deal Kong, you, you sleep in your room. And you could, you could have very few, not that many people sleep with just two of you in the room, but, but often it's four or six of you.
And for example, if you go with your business colleagues to a deal comfort, like, you know, uh, for, uh, a retreat to do team building, you go there to spend time together. So you literally, it would be, uh, I mean, if you can imagine, uh, Dan, you, me, uh, more keys, Eric, Steven, and Burchette, we all go to th to [00:13:00] go to team building for ILC.
They're literally checking us into one room. We. Change in that room. We usually probably go down to the hot baths downstairs, split into men and women, but you're all in the hot beds together. Uh, and by the way, all totally naked. Nobody want you, you know, if you were a swimsuit or something, and one of these aren't beds, people would look at you very funny.
Like what, what are you doing? So you're all in there together. Uh, they're large baskets, super relaxing. It's great. And then by the time you come back up to the room, then you've taken a shower and you've cooled off. And you're in, what's called a new CAPA, which is like a, sort of a Japanese bathrobe. And then you come back up to your room and they've set out dinner and you all have dinner together in your room.
Um, they, they lay on a little trays. You're sitting on the ground and it's wonderful. It's like a 14 course meal, um, which is fantastic. Um, and then when you're done with dinner, you might go back down to the hothouse or you go for a walk and they've cleaned up your dinner and they've laid out six futon in the room right next to each other.
We [00:14:00] all sleep literally. Like sardines right next to each other in the room together. Um, yeah. And so it's a very different cultural experience for, for, you know, especially for Westerners, um, TLC
Dan Ryan: retreat, 20, 22 or 2023. Yes, we should. We should get let's get all those people. Did it go?
Andrew Benioff: Yes, we could shoot a shooter.
Should absolutely do that would be fun. Um, but in any case, yes. So, so, and I'm not sure there is another country on the planet. Uh, Germany is a close second, but, but, um, I don't think they hold a candle to the level, uh, going back to the attention to detail the level of detail and there's, by the way, there's good and bad parts of this.
There's a lot of bad things. Japan is one of the most amazing countries I've ever been to. It's my favorite country on the planet. There's a lot of bad things about Japan, as well as a ton of great stuff as well. It is the culinary capital of the world. As far as I'm concerned, there is no higher level of cuisine, not only Japanese cuisine, I'm talking French and Italian and other cuisines in Japan.
They, they [00:15:00] do it to a level that, that most countries only, they might not even dream about the level that they they look at, but their attention to detail in the country from when you start in kindergarten to all the way through to when you retire is unparalleled. So, um, if you're interested interesting, okay.
Dan Ryan: On the, so on the good, the bad from the attention to detail, having lived in New York city, um, during the rise of like. The stereotypical Brooklyn maker, right? Where everything is, artismal from artisanal pickles to artismal furniture to whatever. Um, it's this whole idea of love and craft that goes into that.
But I feel just from my experiences with Japan, the entire country is artismal like they invented the word artismal or that that's like a core belief or value of theirs. And with that being said, how would you, like if you were to, if you were to share with us some of the really excellent attention to detail, [00:16:00] um, that really maybe changed your idea of how to deliver experience?
Andrew Benioff: Um, th th there are just, there are so many things, I mean, in Japan from a small age, um, you're taught to care about others before you care about yourself. So it's really a mentality. Their culture is a mentality. The, the wellbeing of a group of people over the wellbeing of an individual person. Um, and so you're constantly thinking about your coworkers.
You're thinking about your family. Obviously you think about yourself as well, but you think about them first, always, and that goes into their service level. So even when you go to a McDonald's in Japan, the level of service at a McDonald's is better than it. Most hotels here in the U S or a lot of hotels, not all, but you know, when, when you walk up to the front desk of a hotel here in the U S and it's, uh, you know, Alex cabanas is, is well, well known for sort of [00:17:00] it's his TEDx talk that, um, that he did, uh, that I hosted talking about the level of service.
And, and, you know, when you walk up to the front desk, the first thing they see is they, when you're coming across the lobby that you're 10 feet away. And the first thing they said to you is checking in. So it's like, it's so lacking in hospitality. Um, yes, a person with a suitcase walking into the lobby somewhere between 4:00 PM and midnight rolling their suitcase up to the front desk is likely checking in, but I'm being
Dan Ryan: facetious here, but what if they say your name three times in that process?
Andrew Benioff: Yeah. So exactly that doesn't solve the problem. So, you know, just ask me checking in. That's not a greeting and it doesn't feel personal at all. So, you know, how about, you know, good evening? How are you this evening, sir? You know, um, how may I assist you or just, you know, hello, welcome to, uh, the pan Pacific hotel.
How are you tonight, sir? You know, order just, [00:18:00] just a nice greeting and, and asking them how they are or, um, you know, how, how you can assist them would be lovely. And they're going to come up and say, yes, I'm, uh, I'd like to check in my name is Andrew Benner, whatever, whatever the case is, but the, the level of service, some of the simple things we get into this robot, Sir, you know, um, uh, way about us that we just continue to repeat things like checking in, checking out, you know, or just, you know, we're just not greet people and it's infuriating because it just is a lack of culture, a lack of attention to detail.
And even at, for example, going back to McDonald's in Japan, they, they welcome you when you come in and they are happy to be there. The, the, the service culture in Japan is being proud. Uh, whatever level of company you're working at, whether you're working at Japan airlines, which is the, or Ana, the premier airlines of Japan, or the hotel okra in Japan, you know, a really well-run, [00:19:00] um, uh, Western style hotel.
The hotel Nikko in not the airport is, uh, is not even in the center of Tokyo, but they take pride in the job that they do there. And they're not always perfect. Of course not. Even the smallest, even, even the person cleaning the rooms is really prideful of what they're doing and doing it to the best they can.
And that's the culture of Japan. And I think that, um, that none of them feel like, oh, this is below me. Or, you know, I should be, I should be doing that. Of course they want to be promoted and they want to get more responsibility and so forth, but whatever level they're at and whatever they're doing, they're putting their true heart into it and paying attention to detail and putting aside their own personal feelings for the greater good in this case of the entity that they're working for and the team that they're working with.
Dan Ryan: I, when you, when you said how difficult and, and [00:20:00] hard that apprenticeship was, and it was the hardest you've ever worked. And I think this has come up a couple of times in conversations recently, I'm drawn back to the. Documentary Jiro dreams of sushi. I think that was the name of it, where there was one apprentice who would make tamago, which is the, the omelet and fold it and you'd have to fold it, get the heat just right.
And all the ingredients that's right. And for years, and finally, like after three or five years of trying to make the Tomago every night Jiro comes in and says, well done. And I think the guy started crying if I remember correctly, but there was such a pride in working in and just getting to that point.
Um, I'm hearing that come out of your story.
Andrew Benioff: Yeah. And there's, there's such a high level of detail and attention to detail and perfection in Japan that, um, and once again, there's a good and a bad to this, and I'm not going into the bad right now, but the, the good of it is that you, you, you have a very, uh, high level of either [00:21:00] service or product that is produced.
Um, it's amazing. I've never seen it in other, you know, other countries. Um, and it has to do with the national culture. That's for sure. I remember when I was at the, um, neo-con in Japan, our head chef, and I worked in the kitchen there for about nine months or a year, I think actually, um, and the head chef at the kitchen in the, in our kitchen was not a really old guy.
He was, you know, sort of middle-aged, but, but very accomplished for his age. Um, and he was tough to work with. And as a foreigner, he let up on me a bit because, uh, he couldn't expect as much from me because I was a foreigner, but there was a young kid who was, who was starting, who was above me as an apprentice.
He was a full-time employee there. Um, but still just learning. And, um, he would, so in Japan, in your house, uh, the, the bath is called a futile. Um, and you, you usually heat the bat. You, you put hot water into the bath and heat it up, and then they put like a little, um, [00:22:00] Uh, like a couple of planks of wood over the top to keep the heat in.
And then when the, when the, when somebody gets in and they take those planks out and they get into the bath well, that's that? So the, the, the, the, um, it's like the lid on a, on a pot that, that, that, that, uh, those planks of wood, so that, but there's nothing more useless than those planks of wood when they're taken off is all you can use them for is keeping the heat in.
But when you're not using the bath, they're just sort of useless pieces of wood in the corner. So he would, he would call this kid when he was doing stuff. And it wasn't when he would ask them to, I dunno, peel carrots or, uh, uh, get the lettuce cleaned or whatever he was doing, peel potatoes or mashed them, or whatever, whatever he was using for the food.
If it wasn't done right, he would call him a lid on a bathtub, which meant that he was useless. And so it would, and over and over again, And this kid [00:23:00] was working as hard as he could. Now. Obviously there's a lot of, uh, you know, negative things con uh,
Dan Ryan: the HR department involved in
Andrew Benioff: that there is no HR department there.
So exactly. So it's, so for here, people would be like, oh, you can't call me that you can't do. But of course, we also don't aspire to this level of perfection here in the United States. No matter what you say. I mean, yeah, there's some places that might, but, um, so negative, there's negative parts of that as well.
But this kid eventually became an amazing chef and created amazing things. And it was only because of that hardship that he had to go through, that he got there. And in Japan, that's part of the culture as well is going through hardship and accepting it, no matter how hard it is and persevering to get to this higher level.
And it's. Um, for good and bad, once again, I sort of look at it both sides, but we don't really have that here in the U S that much, there is some, there are some, but not at the level that you have it there in Japan. So I'm [00:24:00] on the good side
Dan Ryan: of that going from the apprentice and cleaning the toilets and helping out in the kitchen and working so hard to becoming a hotel manager in San Francisco.
What are some of the good parts? What Infor, like what inspired you along your journey to become one of the managers at, uh, the hotel Niko in San Francisco?
Andrew Benioff: Sure. Um, yeah, I had management positions at the Penn Pacific in San Francisco at Nico in San Francisco and at Ritz-Carlton in San Francisco, all amazing hotels.
And one of the things that I think that going, going from the beginning, cleaning toilets, uh, Uh, getting beds ready, checking in people, checking out people dragging bags. I, um, I manage the bell team and the, and the valet staff in, in, at the Nico in San Francisco, uh, checking in big groups of folks is I could [00:25:00] really understand what all the, all of the folks that worked with me and for me were going through because I had done it all many, many times myself.
So that was of a huge, a huge help to me and sort of empathetically connecting with them. And they knew that I had done what they were doing. And I also knew, you know, I knew what, what, what, how much they could do and what they couldn't do. And tried to be very careful of asking too much of folks doing anything that I wouldn't be willing to do myself.
So, you know, if we had a big group checking in, um, uh, you know, on a boss or something, and I had three doormen there or a bellman to take all, you know, the 80 bags off of the bus or whatever it was. I would hop down there and help them myself, because I thought that that was important to, you know, when they're going through that hardship, I wanted to be a part of that with them.
So I think that that is something that you, you definitely learn. And I think it's a valuable experience. Being able to go through it, [00:26:00] you know, listen, nobody wants to clean toys for the rest of their life, but at the same time in Japan, people take great pride in that. If they're the toilet cleaner, for example, if they're the person doing that or cleaning the hot, the, the, the hot spring bath below and scrubbing it out every morning for those guests, they take a lot of pride in that because they know that the guests are going to really have a wonderful experience there later.
Um, it's not for everybody. Uh, hospitality is something that you. You either have, or you don't and, and, uh, if you have it, it's something that hopefully you can, and you can enjoy the problem. I think
that's
Dan Ryan: a great launching point because as you're speaking, I'm going back to originally where you were talking about Danny Meyer, how he bifurcated, um, hospitality from service and on the hospitality side, it was really that feeling of empathy, right.
That, that you can measure. And a really empathetic person is going to be very good at hospitality. And as you were telling the stories of checking in or cleaning toilets, and you said, [00:27:00] I wouldn't have anyone else do something that I wouldn't be willing to do. It's almost as if, and this has come up in conversations again, we're in a hotel, it's really a, it's a standalone business where you can try out anything and really see if you can succeed or fail or what you like or don't like, but it's really what you bring to the table.
And it actually, as you're speaking in a, as I'm hearing this and connecting the dots in my head, I really feel like that's a lot of the culture that you've brought over to ILC. Because again, it's like, you're doing all of this, you're creating all these great little moments, but also it's open for anyone else to come in and help help you drive the bus.
So to speak.
Andrew Benioff: Yeah, I guess one of my philosophies and in business and why I enjoy being an entrepreneur is that I've learned over the years to be, I don't think I was this way in the beginning, but I've learned as I've gone along, not to be fearful of, um, [00:28:00] of, uh, failure and, uh, That that is, that's something that's that if you don't try out new things, if you don't, uh, explore new ideas, um, you sort of just have the same thing going on day after day, year after year, et cetera.
And you never, never get to the next level or the next plateau, et cetera. So I think, I think it goes equally for the independent lodging Congress and what we do there as well as in the hotel and hospitality projects that I work on, you have to be constantly, uh, open to new ideas and creative and not fearful of something will, um, If something's going to fail.
So you're walking down the road of your main business, your main businesses, the road, and you can see a couple of spurs going off to the left and right. Are little, little paths going off left and right. Which are new. I possible new ideas. [00:29:00] And I certainly let my team at the dependent lodging Congress and others that I work with.
I let them go and explore those little paths. I think you should. And some of them are going to just Peter out into the woods and not go anywhere. That's failure. Okay. Drop it and move on. But some of them turn out to be fantastic ideas of new things that we ought to be doing. Um, and I mean, one of those is, uh, one of those is something that we're working on with you, Dan, which is the, your, your affiliation with the opportunity network and thinking of how we, how we connect underprivileged, uh, minority.
Uh, kids, you know, in college and high school to internship opportunities in hospitality where they, they don't have those connections. They've not grown up with those people, but, but we have lots of connections. And how can we put hotel companies that need interns together with a more diverse group, uh, of both diverse racially, [00:30:00] culturally and experientially group of people that can add to their hospitality, uh, operation.
And that was something that was just a quick little spark of an idea. And you brought Brian Weinstein in the, the founder of that. And then we talked about it and it's been sort of percolating for a little while, but I think it's now starting to coalesce and hopefully that's gonna, that's going to produce something relative in the relatively near future.
Have a really great opportunity for ILC to be able to give back and to connect with opportunity. That's just something that we explored and sort of thought about. And if you don't, you never have that opportunity for a new, new venture like that. And
Dan Ryan: again, I think thank you for that. An opportunity network is amazing and they're really making very impactful differences in kids' lives.
Um, because talent is uniformly distributed, but opportunity is not. Um, and I think the more help that we can give to give anyone [00:31:00] opportunity, it's wonderful. You're shortening other people's journeys. That's like why I get up every day, but what I will say with ILC for the congresses and the con fabs and all these, the meetups that you haven't even been on the advisory board, it's almost as if it's an open source code, right?
It's not like you're, you're keeping other people out. You want to bring in speakers to inspire that might not have anything to do with hospitality. But it gets us all thinking differently. Then we have these ideas and then we'd go out in the lobby. And then our ideas I've said this before ideas have sex with each other and they birth new little ideas and cool things come out of it.
That's why it's like, you're, it's almost like you're an incubator for these ideas to collide, to create new things.
Andrew Benioff: Yeah, no, I, I agree. And that, that's one of the reasons that we, that we do, uh, ILC in and why we're interested is because of those really interesting conversations and the fascinating people we meet and, and hang out with.
And by the way, all those speakers who have nothing to do with hospitality, they [00:32:00] may not, their business may not have anything to do with hospitality, but it's certainly something. If I wouldn't have them, if I didn't think that there was an opportunity to use some of those ideas, what there was a kernel of something that you could bring into hospitality.
So if you continue to only look at the same businesses, like most of the other conferences in hospitality, do, they constantly have the same speakers, the same subject matter. Um, and only people who are directly connected to the hospitality business. Those are the only ones who go and are asked to speak.
Then you have a full circle of you're going to be talking about the same stuff and never, um, create something new. And for ILC, we believe that too, you know, independent hotels are the hardest type hotels you have to pay attention. You have to put more effort in because you're not in one way, choosing a brand is being lazy.
You don't really have to think about it. That's why a lot of people put a brand on their thing. They don't want to have to. They don't want to go the hard route. Constantly thinking about programming and experience and, [00:33:00] and new ideas and who they're gonna do in the restaurant, they'd rather just make it easy and put the brand on.
They don't have to think about it. Um, and I get it and that's that's right for some deals and not right for other deals, but for us exploring those new things is I think super important. And, um, the, I guess the last thing I'd like to say on that is for a long time, the word exclusivity has had a real, has had a really positive connotation.
And you know, that it's like, you know, Hey, if I can join this exclusive club, um, in with, um, with, uh, everybody else and you know, you have to be, you have to be a member it's exclusive. So not everybody's allowed and that's love know that's great. That's what I want to be part of. But the, the, the more I've spent time in business and definitely for ILC, we strive not to be exclusive.
We actually try strive to be inclusive. So, you know, to the extent we can, we want to invite others there, whether they are. Um, part of another brand, we have, we have some of the major brands, [00:34:00] uh, uh, as part of ILC as well, or they're fully independent, or there are a construction of design firm or whatever that you're all welcome to join us.
Um, we're not the biggest by any means, but definitely we want to be inclusive and welcome other people in so that we have these conversations and, and come up with these new ideas and can increase our level of creativity.
Dan Ryan: Because I also believe that I LLC, as you've set it up and how you've structured, the leadership and all the speakers, it's not a zero-sum, it's not a zero sum game.
It's all additive. We're all trying to get to that place where the independents are influencing the brands. The brands will teach things to the independence. You'll get outside speakers from music or fashion or entertainment that talk about. Their successes and usually their successes have to do with their vulnerability and empathy, or they're serving others, [00:35:00] which is all comes down to what we talked about as hospitality and it's transferable to anything.
Andrew Benioff: Yep. That's it? No, that's exactly right. Transferable and anything. That's, I'm a big believer in that and you know, I'm not going to have, um, uh, w w we won't invite somebody who is, I don't know, talking about car tires, uh, you know, at ILC, because that's, unless I found something that was directly a triple, but I might, I might, I might invite the designer of luxury vehicles.
They, you know, they designed the interior, these luxury vehicles, or a designer of a luxury cabins in airplanes to come and visit ILC and talk about the design process of that, because there are things that we could learn and maybe they flow over into the design of rooms in hotels or design of.
Restaurant booths or, uh, private dining rooms or anything else in, in hospitality. So I, I think it's, um, there are things that are sort of disparate, uh, fields that, that do have connection to what we're doing. Um, [00:36:00] we probably spend, I probably spend way too much time curating the panels, um, and the discussions that we have at ILC.
Uh, I don't think, I think most of the major other larger conferences in hospitality spend very little time and I, and I say this to a lot of people and they say, you know, they ask me, what's the difference between what you do. And you know, I'm not gonna mention the names of those larger conferences, but you know, the, the, the other conferences.
And I say, well, if you look at those other conferences and you look at that, The titles of the panels and the panelists on those conferences. And I show you an agenda from 20 20, 20 15, 20 10 and 22 to 2005. And I take off the years. I bet you can't tell me when those happened or the difference between those events, because they're essentially the same, same people, same discussions, um, which is too bad because I think you're really losing an opportunity to learn and, and, uh, evolve the industry, which is what we want to do.
Dan Ryan: Well, the curiosity of [00:37:00] the culture of curiosity that you've created and the ability for people to kind of get outside of their normal network has been amazing and just inspiring for me. Um, I want to go back to up from your Japanese experience as far as some of the worst deliveries or the, those worst details.
And when you think about those bad details, that from your experience in hospitality, how have they. Uh, propelled you into a different direction.
Andrew Benioff: Um, can you, can you, um, I'm a little unsure what you mean by worst details. So,
Dan Ryan: um, you were saying that there's the good details and the bad details, and I didn't want to go into the bad before, but you know, I want to use that now is okay.
Well that was bad or shocking or not cool. And this is it's actually helped propel me in a different direction. And I've learned from that much in the same way that you're like, don't feel failure. It may [00:38:00] have been a terrible experience, but it will inform a trajectory for you.
Andrew Benioff: Yeah, I understand. I understand.
Yeah. So I would say one of the things is that, um, in Japan, um, change is not something that they, uh, that the Japanese culture comes to very easily. Um, and so they, they do things in the same way and the way that they've been doing it in Japan has a very, very old culture. So I'm not talking about like a hundred years or 200 years, we're talking, you know, hundreds, maybe even more than a thousand years of doing things in a certain way.
And so, um, even though Japan, Japan is an interesting culture because it's definitely a first world country for the most part in a city like Tokyo or Osaka, but the other, you know, out in the country and in some of the other ways that they do, they live their lives and do business. They're like a third world country.
So it, it's a really interesting dichotomy of, um, how they live there. So, so the, the inability to change quickly, the inability, uh, is something that I think, you know, [00:39:00] is, uh, is, uh, a downfall, um, and something that, um, you know, would be useful for them to look at. So they don't change or, uh, New things really quickly.
So, you know, thinking if you have, oh, something happened and we now have to change, it's hard for them to not do that, even though there's an issue for them to change out of the way that they've always done things is, is very difficult for them. And often they won't, they'll still continue to do sort of the same thing.
Unfortunately. How have you
Dan Ryan: taken that observation to fuel your path? Yeah,
Andrew Benioff: I think, I think it's, um, exactly what I've, what we've talked about with, um, uh, looking at the different, uh, branches off the main road that I'm going down and exploring, but, but, um, trying to be open to, uh, it's okay. To be open to failure.
And when I, when I get there, uh, uh, something that I learned more in hospitality and in the U S especially at a [00:40:00] Ritz-Carlton, um, I worked for a, um, Uh, a difficult man, uh, you know, a very difficult person who was very difficult to work with work for, excuse me, but, but an extremely effective, uh, manager, um, good and bad working for him.
Um, he unfortunately used fear as a motivator, which wasn't, I didn't think it was the best way to do it, but he was also super effective at what he did. And one of the things that he sort of showed us was, you know, like if you have an issue and we don't have the, the proposed solution for it right now, it doesn't really matter.
Figure it out. And we, we, we had carte blanche to, uh, spend money, not, you know, not go crazy, but spend money or figure out what the solution is and do it quickly. Um, because you know, guest satisfaction and guest experience was of paramount importance. So learning to sort of get out of that box of, oh, this is the way we do things.
And we can't do that. I can't tell you how many times I've had people who work for me, but also experiences when I go to a hotel [00:41:00] and I asked for some. That is not a difficult thing. And people say, no, that it's not our policy to do that, or no, we can't do that. And it shouldn't be that difficult to figure some of these things out.
Um, especially when they're, uh, with, when they're within the power of the employer or whoever's, whoever's dealing with it. Try to be more flexible in your thinking. Try to be a little bit softer and say, okay, we don't normally do it this way. Let me see how I can figure this out. Um, and, and, uh, there was, there was a time at the, at the Nico San Francisco, when we had a guest come to us, we had a small gift shop in the, in the, uh, hotel, but it was run by a separate vendor.
So it wasn't actually in a hotel employee. And the business was, they were just renting from us and we had a guest go down there and wanted to buy cigarettes and put it on his room account. He didn't have cash, but since it was a separate business, the employee down there had no way of putting it on the room.[00:42:00]
Um, and so, you know, that that employee told the guest, I'm sorry, we can't charge her the room in case you have to pay with either credit card or cash here, it's separate. And that the guests went absolutely ballistic. I mean, literally started to scream was totally red in the face was practically spitting on her because he was just so angry.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. It's kind of like that whole battle between having a policy or like a guideline. Right. And how do you be,
Andrew Benioff: right. Exactly. No, exactly. Right. So, so I, I, uh, I, um, as the manager got the guests, got him settled down, understood said, Hey, here's cigarettes from the, take the cigarettes. They're yours. Don't worry about it.
They're there on the hotel. You don't even have to pay. Not much less. And if you want more later, let me know and I'll get them onto your room account. No problem. And then I went and took her out of petty cash, whatever it is, $15 and paid the gift shop. And I said, next time, if the guest does that come up to the front desk, [00:43:00] we'll put it on their account.
We'll pay you out with it. And we didn't have any, there was no policy to do that up until that time. And I said, great, I'm making the policy here. It is. It's not that difficult. It was an easy fix. Nobody was losing out. We just didn't have a policy and, and employees get very. They're worried they might lose their job if they don't have the right.
Um, you know, if they don't have the w you know, if the, if what they sell doesn't match what's in the till. And there's all sorts of issues. And, and I understand that the employee was, was fearful of that. And then the guest doesn't understand at all. They just want a smooth experience. They're like, I don't care about any of this other stupid stuff.
Give me my fricking cigarettes and put it on my, put it on my bill. So yeah,
Dan Ryan: really speaking my language on that one, because resistance to change or change in particular dovetails into one of my five core values, which is adapt and improve. And we, you know, as one of our five core values, like that's how we give feedback.
We give praise, we give criticism, we hire, we fire based on adapt and improve. We must be [00:44:00] that as an entrepreneur, as an entrepreneur.
Andrew Benioff: Absolutely got to do, got to do it. So, yeah, no, I think it's, I think it's important. So that that's, uh, going back to your original question, that's one of the things that I think is.
A negative point that I, that I learned in Japan, but it also helped propel me to a new way of thinking and has made me more flexible to that, which is good. Well, and
Dan Ryan: also if you think about that resistance to change and doing things the way that they were done forever, it's also helped them get so deep into making the perfect tobacco tamago or, or ma or making the perfect mashed potatoes or whatever, whatever it is it's going deep.
You, you, you get to that super, I don't know, nuanced level of artismal. I just made
Andrew Benioff: it. Yeah, absolutely. And by the way, if you'd like, um, if you'd like, uh, uh, Jiro dreams of sushi, which is a fantastic, that mirrors my experience in Japan. Exactly. By the way, I did a lot of that and worked in that exact same environment.
Um, and, uh, if you'd like another [00:45:00] suggestion of another Japanese movie, um, that I, or a movie about Japan, excuse me, that I thought was fantastic. It's called the birth of. And it's about a, a D a distiller in Japan. And there it's about one season of, uh, they're, they're one of the last handmade, fully handmade, not automated sucker distillers in Japan.
And it's an amazing movie. It came out, uh, I don't know, three, four years ago,
Dan Ryan: definitely going to add that to my list.
Andrew Benioff: It's fantastic. You'll love it. If you'd like children's and sushi, I think you'll love it.
Dan Ryan: That's great. I'm going to definitely watch that now, staying with that metaphor of change or the idea of change and going through art, going back into our industry and kind of what we've been through with the pandemic and what we're still going through outside of the pandemic and where we are and all the things that are happening now in real time, what's keeping you up at night as far as things to adapt to, or not adapt to right now.
Andrew Benioff: And you said [00:46:00] outside of the pandemic,
Dan Ryan: outside of the pandemic?
Andrew Benioff: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's a hard question because right now, at least for me, for ILC, uh, this Delta variant is really on our minds and that seems to be affecting us a lot. Um, outside of that, I'm, I'm very interested personally in, um, travel that connects us to nature and wilderness.
And so I've been focused on, um, uh, development in that area and looking at those kinds of projects, I'm also really fascinated by the tiny house movement here in the U S and across the planet, um, and how that can play a part. And I think that, um, because of COVID certainly, but eventually when we're past COVID, I think it will still be of a really strong interest for a lot of people.
People are exploring certainly here in the U S more U S [00:47:00] locations that that can connect them to nature so that they can. They can disconnect and really experience it, but also be comfortable. And there are lots of different monikers. A lot of people call that glamping, but there are other, there are other forms of hospitality that are not necessarily glamping, but there, there are lots of different forms that that takes.
And a lot of great companies that are exploring it in their own different ways and their own distinct formats, which I think is lovely. And, um, I use this time of difficulty to explore it for myself and to work on a project that I'm, that I'm noodling on, which has been
Dan Ryan: wonderful. And, uh, bringing it back to Japan as well.
I've been reading a lot. I haven't done this yet, but this idea of nature bathing as well and how it kind of reinvigorates the human mind, body and spirit.
Andrew Benioff: Yeah. It's amazing. Um, one of the great things Japanese culture is based on seasons. Everything has to do it. Matter of fact, you know, in traditional Japanese [00:48:00] home, Um, the, the art on the walls has changed four times a year to reflect the seasons as well as, as well as like flower arrangement and other things.
So the food is as well, everything is extremely seasonal. Um, you know, you're not eating a pineapple in the winter in Japan. It's just, it's not, you, you eat things that you eat, fruits and vegetables and fish and meat that is based on the seasons, what is good in that season? And so there are certain things you just, you don't eat in the winter that you would have in the summer.
Um, and I think that that's, um, an amazing part of the culture. Really great.
Dan Ryan: Awesome. And then what's exciting you most about the future? So let's say Delta variant remove past your we're doing all this nature, tiny house stuff. Um, what's exciting. You most about. What's out
Andrew Benioff: there. I just, I, the longer I've done ILC, the more I become interested in indie [00:49:00] hospitality and indie hotels.
And, I think that the indie space is fascinating for so many reasons in that, it takes so much more attention to detail to work on one of those projects. And it also takes so much more of a connection to the community and the area that the project is in. And so I'm working on a number of different projects that are all indie focused, and I just, love them because each one of them is so distinct and different.
And I love that focus of really digging into community. I'll. I think a lot of hoteliers don't want to deal with that. Don't want to think about it. They'd rather just, uh, put a. Uh, holiday Inn or a Hyatt place or a Fairfield Inn or a Hampton Inn or, um, whatever flag on a property, build it, get the management team in there and forget it and collect the check and I get it.
[00:50:00] And that's cool that, that, that works for that person. But I actually want to spend the time and effort and really dig into the community and understand what's going on and, uh, how that, how that hotel or hospitality project fits in there and, and spend the time tweaking it and figuring out stuff and failing at certain things and recreating them and try and understand it.
I think, I think that that's a fascinating, uh, uh, experience and, and that's what I enjoy doing. So that's what I'm working on.
Dan Ryan: Wonderful. At the beginning of the pandemic, I had a conversation, a couple of conversations with horse Horst Schultzey who was like a founder of Ritz Carlton. And. He repeatedly said that once we get through this, and once this is over, this is the pandemic.
This will be the time for independent hotels. He really, he said it was from such like a, a visceral belief. And I really [00:51:00] want to get him on here to just kind of pull on that thread a little bit more. I mean, he said it over and over. This is the time for independence.
Andrew Benioff: Well, for those of us who worked at Ritz-Carlton, we call him Mr.
Schulty. Um, and I could never call him. I was not at the level at rich to call him Horst or horse Schulty. So, uh, I had the pleasure of, um, escorting Mr. Schulty once when he was at the Ritz-Carlton in San Francisco to his room and around the hotel a little bit and spent a little bit of time talking with them and he's an absolute inspiration.
And, um, he bleeds hospitality. There is nobody who I've ever met, who just being with them in the room. You feel like. He is, you know, his soul care is the guest and the guest experience and how things affect them. And it was an absolute inspiration for the very short and he will never remember me. I know that, but, um, for the very short time that I, that, you know, 30 minutes or an hour that I spent with him one day at the Ritz [00:52:00] Carlton in San Francisco was just amazing.
Great guy. Amazing. Yeah, he was, I
Dan Ryan: call him Horst because he was introduced by it. I was introduced to him by a friend, Michael Bedner who's just known him forever. And I don't know how many Ritz-Carltons he's designed, but it was just a very friendly intro. But all of those things that you just said transcend to my mother-in-law, who was actually working at the Ritz Carlton half moon bay as a concierge for a long time.
And all of those things that you just described, they came through her. Right. She really heard that that culture just kind of lived on way past forced horse involvement in, um, Absolutely.
Andrew Benioff: That was on the opening team. I was on the opening team for the Ritz Carlton half moon bay, which is an amazing property.
While I was at San Francisco. I was sent down as a task force manager on the team and, uh, amazing, amazing property. And I have a picture in my office actually of myself and my wife and our first born standing outside of the Ritz-Carlton half moon [00:53:00] bay. So that's a great memory.
Dan Ryan: It was someone playing back
Andrew Benioff: while you were standing there.
They weren't, but it looks like every, when I show people that picture, they, everybody says, where were you? Scotland or Ireland? And I say, no, that's in, that's the Ritz-Carlton half moon bay. It looks like that. It looks like
Dan Ryan: it's such an amazing place. And, um, when that, when that fog rolls in, when Carl, the fog rolls in it is just amazing.
So eerie.
Andrew Benioff: It's a beautiful, beautiful property. If you get to go
Dan Ryan: awesome. Um, when you're traveling and I know you haven't been traveling as much, but when you're traveling, what's something that makes you feel at home. What do you miss the most.
Andrew Benioff: Uh, that's a, that's a really great question. Um, I think really the, the thing that I miss the most, whenever I'm traveling is a good bed, because so many times just we're in our trip this past time, out of the five nights, we're away, four of those nights, we had not great beds and, uh, it it's, it's suffering not comfortable.
[00:54:00] And I wake up in the morning and I'm tired. And the last night that we were, uh, that we stayed, uh, we, we had a really lovely bed and just that, that great sleep that I got from the wonderful sheets and the I'm a firm mattress guy. I don't like it too soft. So that firm mattress, maybe there's like a feather top mattress topper, but it was, the mattress was from, and we got in and I was just like, oh, finally, a good bed.
And I woke up the next morning and I was totally refreshed. That was. That was just wonderful. I was just wonderful, but I will tell you that coming back to our little town here in Eastern Pennsylvania, Southeastern Pennsylvania, outside of Philadelphia, that's very green and our little house, our house is not grand and it's not fancy.
Um, but just being here with, and listening to the birds chirp, and, um, it's very quiet where we are is just lovely. Never, never, never gets old coming home.
Dan Ryan: You think that all for me, from my experience, when I'm in a hotel I'm spending, you [00:55:00] know, I'm not in the room very much. I'm spending 75 to 95% of my time sleeping.
You'd think that there would be more effort put into the beds.
Andrew Benioff: Yeah. Uh, for anything that I do, my focus, anything that I'm developing or investing in my focus is on two main areas for the room. Um, and they have to be super relative. Everything else can be. Great and well-designed and whatever, um, and have to work well and stand up to, you know, a lot of use, but the two things that have to be, you know, at the highest level, and it doesn't mean they have to be made out of gold or marble or silk.
They just have to be comfortable work well, is one an amazing bed with amazing sheets. That's number one has to be. And then number two is an amazing shower with good water pressure. Those two things. If they work well, they solve a lot of the other ills in a hotel as far as I'm concerned. And when they [00:56:00] don't work well.
Oh, what a terrible stay.
Yeah.
Dan Ryan: Um, how old were you when you started and finished your apprenticeship in Japan?
Andrew Benioff: Oh gosh. Uh, I was, um, in my mid twenties, so early twenties to mid twenties, this one, I was probably like 23. 26 or something, I forget. Okay.
Dan Ryan: So I'm teleporting you right now, back to Japan. You're standing in front of your 26 year old self.
What advice do you give yourself?
Andrew Benioff: Oh boy, uh, be patient and have an open mind. Um, because I was very focused on doing, you know, one thing is I had this dream and I wanted to do this and it was very, you know, I didn't didn't have a lot of, in my mind, there weren't as many options I wasn't as open-minded or patient.
And so I sort of went down one path and it was good and I got a lot of great experience and it's turned out to be okay. [00:57:00] But I think having a little bit more of an open mind and not deciding this is the, this is the one way things need to go. Um, and, and letting things come, giving things a try if it doesn't work out trying something else.
That's okay. I think it's almost more important. This is advice that I give to a lot of mentees that come to me for advice, which is. It's almost more important to know what you don't want to do, uh, than it is to know what you do want to do. Um, there's a lot of people come in. They're not sure what they want to do.
And I say, great, well, do you want to be a nuclear scientist? And they say, Nope. I said, good. That's one thing we've crossed off. Uh, you know, do you want to be a race car driver? Nope. Uh, okay. Another thing we've crossed off. So try to try to try to have a general area you think you want to get into, but just because you want to be in commercial real estate or just because you want to be in hospitality, it doesn't mean you need to know today.
What part of it you want to do? Give it a, try, try one thing and it's okay. It it'll tell you [00:58:00] whether you like that or not. And some of the things, certainly when I started some of the things that I tried didn't work out and things that I thought I'd be good at. I wasn't and things that I thought I wouldn't be good at.
I was great. So, um, it's a lot of experience experimentation. I think there's a lot of pressure on young people today to know exactly what they want to do and they're pigeonholed. And I think that they're given a lot of pressure by their parents, which is unfortunate.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. It, it, it, what you're saying right there ties in perfectly to that.
What you said earlier is don't feel don't fear, failure.
Andrew Benioff: Nope. Can not feel failure. Right? Totally. Even when you're young and especially when you're young, I mean, it's, it's the time to fail and try and figure stuff out. And generally it works out and I know, I know I'm coming from a place of privilege and I had a bit of a backstop because of my family situation.
And some people don't have that ability, so I totally get that. Um, but it still doesn't mean you, uh, I'm not saying you should work [00:59:00] for free and you know, not on, you know, get a job. Try it, and it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be your last one or you have to do that. So just because somebody told you, you should be accountant, because there were a lot of people that were accountants, great.
Get a job as an accountant and try it and you may hate it. And if you do like it, great, keep going. If you don't like it while you have the job, look for something else and try something else. It's okay. It's okay. Yeah.
Dan Ryan: That suffering can be very illuminating, right? Absolutely. The point is just get out there and do it.
And one of the, uh, uh, an important signpost in my life is, you know, I was in the middle of failing and, uh, I was on a bus and there was this woman sitting in front of me. She had a t-shirt that said failure is just unfinished learning and it reframed the way I looked at it. And. Failure is an incredible teacher.
Andrew Benioff: Well, a friend of mine told me this, and I'm not sure if this is his quote or not. It might not be his quote. I think he might've gotten it from somebody else, but he said, um, which [01:00:00] I always loved this quote it's, it's a definition of experience. And he's always said that experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.
So I love that. Um, and, and, uh, so, you know, you may not get the job that you wanted when you, when you started, but you got a good experience and in trying it out, um, and then you gotta keep trying something. And, uh, that's how you build up your experience is a lot of failure, a lot of things that necessarily weren't perfect, but that's okay.
Give it a try,
Dan Ryan: because if you try, sometimes you might find you get what you need. Rest in peace. Charlie Watts, right on Andrew. Yes. Andrew, where can people find you?
Andrew Benioff: Uh, they can find me. Most of my stuff on social media is. Uh, I mean, I have, I have accounts on, you know, all the major social media things, the best one would be, um, on LinkedIn.
Uh, and you can find us@iolcongress.com, uh, stands for independent lodging. I [01:01:00] L congress.com, but we're also an Instagram, um, Facebook, LinkedIn, and I have personal accounts there too. Feel free to reach out, always happy to chat.
Dan Ryan: Great. And I think your LinkedIn is a Len rock group Benioff as well.
Andrew Benioff: Uh, that might be, but if you just type there's only, I don't think there are any other Andrew Benioff's.
So if you just start my name and you'll find me.
Dan Ryan: Okay, awesome. And then, uh, everyone, I, I highly suggest you check out, um, independent lodging Congress on Instagram. There's so much great content and recorded conversations from a bunch of like top leaders in the hospitality industry and Andrew, that whole library of content that you've created is just amazing.
Andrew Benioff: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff. It's all on the website. We have, um, we have almost 30, uh, podcast episodes and we're going to do, be doing more going into 20, 22. Um, and then we have, uh, I don't know, 125 or 150, something like that. IgG live interviews. And then a bunch of other video interviews. It's all on the, all accessible on the website.
Dan Ryan: [01:02:00] Wonderful, Andrew, thank you very much. I'm so grateful for your time and your friendship.
Andrew Benioff: Okay. Thanks very much. Daniel was really a pleasure. Um, I appreciate you having me on and I look forward to chatting again soon.
Dan Ryan: Wonderful. And also thank you to our listeners. I hope this talk is evolved your view on how to deliver hospitality.
Uh, I sure learned a lot today about Andrew and it's influenced how I'm thinking about things now. So thank you everyone. And we'll see you next time.