Defining Hospitality

Dan: Today's guest is a partner who enjoys helping people disrupt the hospitality space. His 20 plus years of experience has seen him involved in all projects across the globe. He's represented billions of dollars in acquisitions in both the residential and commercial space.

He's a partner at Baker Hostetler and co leader of the hospitality industry team. Ladies and gentlemen. Jeff Diener. Welcome, Jeff.

Jeff Diener: Thank you, Dan. Great to see you again.

Dan: It's great to see you too. And then for those of you listening who love our hospitality industry so much, one of the things I love. I get to go to a lot of events and dinners.

And I met Jeff at a dinner that we were both invited to. It was a lovely affair in Los Angeles and Jeff was sitting to my left. And I know many men, what struck me about the meeting, and we can talk about this later. Um, I know a lot of lawyers. I've met tons of them. I have friends who are lawyers. When Jeff started talking about, His specialty in hospitality, he just lit up and I was like, wow, I've never actually met a lawyer who is so passionate about lawyering.

And a lot of it in talking to him had to do with hospitality industry. So I thought it would be a really interesting conversation to have him on and, and talk about it and share his excitement with all of you. So Jeff, thank you for sharing and putting yourself out there with myself and, and all the listeners.

Jeff Diener: Of course, I'm happy to do it as, you know, you and I talked about, we could talk hospitality all day long and never run out of things to chat about. And it is the thing that, that keeps me doing what I do.

Dan: most people, I would think when they think of lawyers, they think of contracts, words, litigation, um, putting deals together, um, and I'd love to hear what is the most exciting part about all of that for you, as far as your vocation with respect to hospitality. But first, if we could go back to that dinner and when you started talking about Why you love hospitality so much.

Like, what does it mean to you or how do you define it?

Jeff Diener: Well, the way I define it in the context of my business and providing service, it's creating the right combination of satisfaction, comfort, security, and enthusiasm for each individual client.

Dan: And how did, like, when you were going through law school or undergrad and you were, before you were practicing, um, before you took the bar, like, did you have any vision that you would be in the hospitality sector? So I guess the question would be then, how did you figure out this? silo, if you will. And when did you know that the hooks were in you and you, you'd never wanted to leave?

Jeff Diener: Yeah, I mean, this is not a career path that I think I could recreate again today. I mean, you know, there were so many twists and turns and I just sort of landed where I did. I mean, Obviously a big part of it is being prepared for each opportunity as it comes your way. But, you know, I did my undergrad at Cornell, which is, you know, is like the epicenter for all things hospitality.

Um, but I wasn't in the hotel school. I was actually in arts and sciences. But I did a lot of my coursework at the hotel school. I even TA'd a finance course at the hotel school. But as I was going through it, I had absolutely no idea that I would end up in the hospitality industry. And I had no idea I was going to end up as a lawyer one day.

So, you know, I, I, after undergrad, I ended up actually working for a small startup company that we were doing business in Russia and eventually Eastern and Central Europe, which had nothing to do with hospitality. And then after a few years of that, I ended up going back to school to earn my MBA. And the law degree was really, it was a tack on, frankly, it was something I was always interested in just from a purely academic, nerdy perspective.

I mean, I never really thought I was going to practice, but law school was something that always interested me. So when I went back to do my MBA, I ended up doing the joint degree program.

Dan: What's a JD MBA?

Jeff Diener: Yeah, JD MBA. Yep.

Dan: Okay.

Jeff Diener: By the way, being, being in school in Los Angeles for four years, you know, after having worked for a few years was not a terrible thing.

So, um, you know, the surfing and skiing was not all bad, but, you know, it's. You definitely have more of an appreciation for the academic lifestyle after you've worked for a few years. So to anyone who's gone straight through from sort of high school, undergrad, to law school, I'm always thinking, nah, like you're missing out.

Take a few years off and then go back to school, you know, like really appreciate the time out from the rest of, you know, your, your work life. Um, but so much of it came down to the people that were around me. I mean, every opportunity I had and every sort of career move It ultimately, it somehow revolved around the people that were near me at the time, right?

Or that I was in their presence at the time. And so, you know, I was going to grad school and I ended up summering at a law firm and, uh, I didn't expect to like it nearly as much as I did. And it actually had nothing to do with hospitality. It was mostly bankruptcy and restructuring. But the people who I was exposed to were great.

I mean, incredibly intelligent, really passionate about what they did. And it gave me pause to think about, well, you know, maybe, maybe this law firm thing, I'll do it for a year, you know, maybe to get some experience and then I'll go back into the business world.

Dan: Well, and that's, that's another intriguing thing because most of the people that I know that I grew up with that went on to law school or the lawyers that I knew earlier on in my career, they started practicing law. And then they got specialized into a specific, a specific business. So it's, I was also, it's also cool to see you.

Who's just so passionate about practicing law and overlaying, like making a Venn diagram of how the hospitality is world as well. So keep going on that thread.

Jeff Diener: yeah, well, look, I get bored easily, right? So hospitality is great because It's, it's a complicated real property asset, right? I mean, it's, it's an operating business layered on top of real estate. So you have all of the normal real estate issues that you would have plus an operating business on top of that.

So any deal that I tend to get involved in, I'm inevitably working with people who specialize in other things like IP, tax, corporate issues, litigation, employment. So I'm constantly getting to meet new people and work with different people By virtue of that, um, it was, it was the same thing that drew me to restructuring and bankruptcy when I started my career, which is, again, it's, you know, that's an area of law where it just involves so many different areas of expertise that you can't possibly know it all.

And, you know, not interested in trying to know it all, but it's great to be able to call other people. And draw upon their expertise and their interests and, you know, sort of what makes them excited about coming in every day. So the transition really from restructuring and bankruptcy to hospitality happened when I was a very, very junior associate and I was tasked to work on the bankruptcy of a chain of steakhouses.

We had like 56 steakhouses around the United States. So it sort of started with an entry point into the restaurant world. Um, and then. I mean, again, it's just totally unpredictable, right? So I was practicing in LA and then I really, I knew I wanted to be overseas. I was trying to find a new gig in either Moscow or London, both places I'd spent time in before, both markets that I had some familiarity with,

Dan: it's great cover as a, as like a spy also,

Jeff Diener: Oh, absolutely. I would, I would imagine. I wouldn't know firsthand, but I would think so. Um,

Dan: can tell me, but then you'd have to kill me.

Jeff Diener: yeah, no, I don't want to do that. We just got this podcast started. That would be a very short podcast. Um, yeah. So recruiter out of the blue set, you know, have you ever considered? And I said, no, I have never considered Asia.

It's literally probably the one market I know the least about. He said, well, would you consider it? And at that time I was a fourth or fifth year associate. And again, I had zero interest in making partner at a law firm. Um, it just wasn't in my mind. So I said, yeah, look, if there's a right fit with the right firm, I would definitely consider relocating to Asia.

I mean, I I'd love the experience and I interviewed with a few different firms. And at the end of the day, I flew out to meet with one group. I flew out in February and on the flight back, I decided let's do this. And by April we were living in Tokyo and did that for three years and it was tremendous.

And it was actually during that period of time. That I started doing more, um, hospitality related deals because our firm had a really strong, uh, you know, uh, expertise in that. So I worked on like ski resort deals while I was there and, you know, other deals all around Asia, hotel deals, golf course deals.

Um, and that's started the ball rolling right there. Oh, this is, this is interesting stuff. You know, this is, this is really. I could see doing more of this. And then when I came back to the U S in 2008, um, you know, that was when the worlds of real estate and restructuring were colliding, unfortunately, for most of, you know, most people, um, but I was really comfortable in bankruptcy court.

I knew my way around the bankruptcy code reasonably well, still at that point. And I knew my way around real estate, so it started, it kept kind of going and one of the big cases that I worked on was the restructuring of a W property in New York. Um, and then again, it just, it just kind of builds up from

Dan: Which one was it in

Jeff Diener: it was the one at, um, it was downtown. At, yeah, at,

Dan: Union Square.

Jeff Diener: Union Square. It's W Union Square. Yeah.

Dan: it's an interesting property right now for W, because, and for Marriott, because they don't own very many assets, right? They've divested them and, um, they're really focused on the brands and, um, the operations of the, Of the brand, but they actually bought that building to re imagine the W experience.

So it's like, it's pretty, it's pretty awesome. Anyway, carry on.

Jeff Diener: Yeah, no, that's, that's an interesting property. Talk about a great location, by the way. I mean, that's a really fun part of the city. Uh, I used to live a block away from there. So, I, I knew the area reasonably well. But, um, yeah, so that, so it just kept kind of growing from there. Um, and then, I moved to London, uh, for a few years, which it was another one of those funny conversations where, um, You know, we were still sort of in the recession and my boss came to me.

He actually came to me right before lunch and said, um, come, come see me after lunch, you and I need to talk. And of course, you know, you, you hear that and you're like, Oh my God, that's, that can't be good. Um, so, you know, I basically wait an hour and then go to his office. Uh, you know, you wanted to chat and he starts telling me all about his time.

in London because he had actually headed our entire real estate group for a period from our London office. And he just went on and on about what a great experience it was and how much he and his family enjoyed it. And that's great. You know, great. And, and at the end, he said, you know, so, so what do you think?

And I said, well, I'm glad it was such a positive experience for you. It sounds wonderful. And he kind of looked at me like I was an idiot. And he said, no, how would you like to go to London for a header group over there. Oh, that's what this conversation was actually about. I said, Oh yeah, absolutely.

I'm, I'm in. this is great. I'm excited about this opportunity. We're in, we're in and, you know, relocated the family over there. Um, and had three amazing years there. And again, you know, my time there, I actually chaired, or I should say co chaired, um, ULI's Hospitality Council, European Hospitality Council.

And my fellow co chair was also a lawyer. And people used to comment all the time that they were amazed at how well he and I collaborated and worked on stuff together. And it's just, you know, he's just another kind of like minded person where he enjoyed working with people rather than opposite people.

Um, and once in a while you get lucky with that. Um, I just got a note from a lawyer today. He and I just worked on it. It was actually a very contentious matter. He represented a tenant of, um, and my client was a landlord and his client Picked up and left, uh, basically abandoned the space at my client's hotel.

So contentious, um, but that said we got a settlement agreement done. I think it took us a week and a half, maybe from start to finish to get the whole thing done. We just signed it yesterday. And, you know, he wrote me this nice note saying like, you know. Our industry is filled with a certain type of person.

It's great to come across somebody else once in a while who just knows how to get things done or just gets it. And so you get lucky once in a while and you get the, it's sort of those few moments of ups that keep you going, you know, for all the other ones where you're working with people who don't get it.

Dan: So in many conversations with just other entrepreneurs and lawyers, um, you, I get the feeling that, and I've heard this said a lot, I'm probably going to say it ineloquently, but In, in the world of lawyers out there, there's deal makers and deal breakers. Right. And it from what, from what you just said there.

And the, and the deal make, the deal makers are more rare than the deal breakers. 'cause it's much easier to tear something down than to find. Those synergies and make it work. And what you just said right there made me think about that. So if you were to go back over your career and look at pre hospitality and now in hospitality, do you find that there's from the mindset of the, of your clients and all the stakeholders in the projects and the deals that you're doing, do you find that in hospitality, there's more of those deal maker types rather than the deal breaker types?

Jeff Diener: Oh, absolutely. Um,

Dan: why do you think that is?

Jeff Diener: it's a great question. You know, why are, why are the dealmakers drawn to hospitality and others? Why is there a disproportionate number of dealmakers rather than deal breakers in hospitality? Um, I mean, like in my case, you know, I came from a business background and business is all about relationships and getting deals done at the end of the day, even when you're Fighting over a, you know, a pie, right?

Like, you know, like in a restructuring context, you know, it's sort of between creditors and debtors, it's like, who's going to get what sliver of this finite asset, whereas in other transactions, you're actually able to create something better by bringing the two sides together, right? Like it's, you know, you've got your brand on the one hand and the owner on the other has this great asset and you bring them together and, you know, you can make so much more of this building.

Um, Maybe there's something about You know, the industry itself where, again, if you look at how people define hospitality, I think it's always in the context of service, like providing service, right? I mean, I would imagine you would know this much better than I would hosting this podcast. Like I imagine people's answers somehow always connect to providing service.

So it seems like it's sort of service minded people are drawn to hospitality. I mean, otherwise you're definitely in the wrong business, right?

Dan: Yeah, so in doing this podcast for 150 or 60 episodes, I don't remember what the count is right now. The definition is always moving and elusive. Um, I do think service plays a huge part of it. And it's like real, again, using that Venn diagram idea, there's a bunch of them, but I think a lot of it is also just service, empathy, and really meeting others where they are.

And as far as like being a deal maker. You really have to strive to meet the person across the table from you where they are. It's like a harried guest who just got in from a red eye or flew back to Tokyo from, you know, got in late, they're harried, they might not want to, um, they're not hairy. Well, they could be hairy, but they're like, their, their mind is other.

Yeah, they're fatigued. And, um, you know, maybe they want some extra service. Maybe they want, maybe they just want to go to the room and take a shower. But it's all about like, seeing that, recognizing that and meeting the others where they are.

Jeff Diener: yeah, absolutely. I think, um, like in the context of most of my negotiations, right? There are some easy softballs where there's a point that's very important to the other side and not at all important to our side. You give, right? It's easy to give that one up. It's a great, that's really important to you.

It's not important to us. Let's, let's accommodate you on that point, right? Then there are the more challenging points where it's important to both of us or if it's, it's binary, right? Like it's sort of one side can get it and the other side doesn't get it, right? Those are the more challenging ones to work through.

But again, I think it's a matter of trying to figure out, okay, we're looking at this in a binary way. Maybe there is a

Dan: when you say a binary way, is that kind of that idea of like, it's a zero sum game? Like, okay, there's only this much you. You're going to get this much. I'm going to get this much, but I guess maybe, and this is kind of where it's interesting is like in that deal making thing, it's, it's trying to find a place where everyone wins.

Right. And it's like a one plus one equals three or five or 10. And those are, that's really hard to do.

Jeff Diener: It's hard to do, but you know, if you're creative, you can figure it out. Um, and it's also, I think the longer you work with your clients, the easier it is to understand what they value, what their triggers are, what's important to them, where you can give and where you can't give on certain stuff.

So like in my practice, Rather than trying to represent, you know, a hundred different clients and doing 10 percent of each client's work, I'd much prefer to have five or six or seven clients where I'm doing 80, 90 plus percent of their work for them. where I could really provide more strategic advice to them, right?

Because I understand their business more holistically that way. I understand, you know, really what they're trying to accomplish from a platform perspective as opposed to like, you know, what we're negotiating for in a particular HMA or something.

Dan: an HMA?

Jeff Diener: a hotel management agreement.

Dan: Okay.

Jeff Diener: Sorry. Right. So in the, like when we represent, I, I'm typically on the owner side of the equation, right?

So I work with all the major brands. But I rarely represent them. Um, I had one great experience getting to represent Hilton on a matter, and it was really fascinating to, to sort of be, uh, under the tent with them on that. It's really helped me understand, you know, sort of things from the brand perspective, um, cause again, I'm

Dan: made it, what made it so fascinating? Hmm.

Jeff Diener: Because, you know, I'm in that context, it's like I'm, I'm constantly negotiating with them as opposed to negotiating on their behalf. So in this deal, I got to negotiate on their behalf and, and, you know, it's like such a reversal of roles for me when I'm, you know, almost exclusively on the owner side of the table.

So, you know, to kind of hear what, you know, what was important to the owners on that one. And there was stuff where we were like, Oh, yeah, yeah, I would, I would be making that point too. I would be thinking about that too. But it also just on a going forward basis, it was just insightful in terms of being able to provide, you know, better advice to my own clients.

Say, look, this is why the brand cares about this. Um, and this is why it's important to them. Where can we figure out a solution to this? How can we, you know, get to a place where it still works for us? We still keep the brand on board that, you know, you clearly want to work with, and we get a deal done.

Dan: When, um, as you're talking about that, it's making me think of constraints. And as annoying as constraints are, they're also very, they can be very instructive in helping find a solution. Um, so I've heard you say a couple of times, figuring out what's most important to them in, in the sense of meeting them where they're at. In providing furniture to hotels, hotels. Invariably, a constraint is budget. And I find one of the best clarifying questions is, okay, well, there's 10 pieces of furniture in this room. There's a budget issue. Like, what's most important to you? And then when you ask that clarifying question, I find it really helps prioritize or deprioritize all the other competing things where, you know, you know, it's like, we love, I love all of my children equally.

And that's the case where, you know, you have this one number, but then If it's what's most important, then you can, like, prioritize and make some less important. Children, if you're listening, I still love you all equally, so don't

Jeff Diener: My grandmother used to ask me all the time who my favorite is. And I used to

Dan: around others?

Jeff Diener: No, just turn me. Like, I know you have one. I know you must have one favorite. Who it, who, you can tell me. I won't tell anyone. I don't know what her obsession was with that.

Dan: Did you ever tip your hand?

Jeff Diener: Of course not. I love all my children equally.

Dan: Good, see? There, your children are happy now, too. But going back to that idea of constraints, um, I'm curious if you're Onboarding a new client, right? You have, you don't, you'd rather work with fewer clients. So it's, it's a new client that you're not, um, you're not familiar with. How do you? In onboarding them and getting to know them, how do you figure out or ask or clarify with them what's most important to them about them as a person or in a deal in particular?

Because again, that must shed so much light and help provide so much clarity in trying to find that not zero sum answer

Jeff Diener: Yeah.

Dan: an accretive answer. solution to what it what's all trying to get done.

Jeff Diener: Yeah. And my gosh, it's the most rewarding thing when you get to that point, when you You know, you know what's important to your client. You don't have to ask those questions anymore. And you could just push the ball forward on their behalf. They love that because you're taking that burden off their plate.

You're not asking a million questions anymore. You know, you've had, you've gotten your guidance, you know, where they want to go with things and you can check in with them and report to them as opposed to saying, you know, Hey, I need your input on this following, list of items. it's going back to them saying, Hey, You know, I've been pushing this forward.

Here's where we landed. Just wanted to make sure you're okay with everything. And they love that because everybody is so time constrained. But the way you get there, for me, it's, it's, I know I haven't even answered your question yet. Boy,

Dan: No, but that's

Jeff Diener: It's a lawyer thing to do

Dan: no, I knew I knew you were getting there. But like, as you're talking, I'm like, okay, so how, what's a way like for people who are listening, who are not lawyers, but they could they may potentially be service providers, like, what's a good way to find out what's most important? Because part of the thing that I love is also shortening other people's journeys.

So like, to hear your experience of how you Get to know that person or get to invest the time to get over that hump. I think it's applicable to everything really.

Jeff Diener: you have to spend time together. There's just no getting, you have to spend time together. And it's for me, it's, it's, it's that combination of informal time where you, you go out to lunch together or you have a drink together or you get your families together and you, you really get great insights about people from that time spent together without it feeling like an inquisition or very formal.

And then there's the more business side of it, right? Where you, you know, you have to, at least initially as you're onboarding a new client, It is just sort of being, being succinct about it, right? Where I'm not going to pepper them throughout a day and say, Oh, Hey, and I thought of this and I thought of this and I thought of this, it's like coming to them in an organized way and saying, look, this is the deal we're working on.

Like I know. You know, we're trying to re flag two properties that you just bought in Northern California. And I can tell from, you know, the, the flag that they flew under to the flag that you want to fly them under sort of where you want to reposition them. Um, so here's sort of the few things. That I'd like to speak with you about in order to make sure that as I'm negotiating these agreements on your behalf, with the brand, with your lender, um, you know, with any other vendors, this is what I need to know to make sure that I'm doing this right.

And then initially it is more checking in with these people, right? Like in the, in the sort of first deal I do with somebody, there's a learning curve to it. There's just no getting around that. And one of the things I'll do with my clients is explain that to them and say, look, on this deal, I will probably take more time, more of your time than I would otherwise like to.

Um, but just know that by doing it on this deal, you know, It will, it will make things go so much more smoothly down the road and the next deal and the next deal after that, you know, we can operate on cruise control together. I mean, I'm working with a group now, Ohana Real Estate Investors. They're, they're based right here in NorCal.

Um, I was recently introduced to them by one of my partners, Peter Fisher, who's an, he's a labor and employment attorney, but he's got a great relationship with Ohana. Um, you know, he knew that they're working on a variety of transactions. He thought there'd be good fit. Thankfully, he thought highly enough of me to introduce me to his client.

And it's been a great relationship, you know, I mean, since that first deal, I've helped them on a few others. And, you know, it's, it's getting to see more and more of their business, right? Like it's not just helping them with a management agreement. Now, now it's like management agreements, helping them on financings, potentially.

Um, if they've got a dispute, um, you know, with a tenant or with a manager, it's helping them on that. So it's getting more and more involved in their business. And, and like, that's where the joy is. Like, cause now I feel like I'm providing real value. I mean, like there, I think there are a lot of people who could probably negotiate a management agreement, but I don't know if there are a lot who could manage, you know, the relationship more broadly than that.

But I try to be very efficient about that. So it's not about peppering the client during the day and say, Oh, what about this? What about this? What about this? With multiple emails, it's about saying, okay, here's the nature of the transaction we're working on. This is typically how I do it.

This is, these are typically the things that I would care about. Um, and then I'll have. You know, three or four or five questions ready to go for the client where I can say, look, these are the things I need to know in order to sort of push the process forward on your behalf. Um, and then it's just, you know, over time, keeping them informed and coming back to them for input whenever we, you know, whenever we might need it to get the transaction to that next step.

But eventually, you know, you get to the point with some clients where you've done enough deals with them. You know what they care about. You can operate quite autonomously, which is, that's the joy of it at the end of the day.

Dan: Yeah. It's like that, that telepathic level

Jeff Diener: client loves you at this point, right? Because you've now taken that responsibility off of their plate and everyone is time constrained.

So you just freed up time for them. You know, nothing makes me happier than being able to do a deal for a client where I know, you know, they know they are comfortable. They have security, um, and confidence that the deal is getting done while they're doing other things with their time. That's the value.

Dan: going back to, you know, figuring out what's most important to your client and. Looking at going from more your bankruptcy beginning, bankruptcy law practice beginning, or more of that standard, um, although no, that's not like a standard law practice either, but in looking at that transition from just regular business law to more focused hospitality law, was there a client that you had or an experience or a project or a deal that Once you started getting into hospitality that made a light bulb go off for you on how to figure out that important part, but also really focus on building that relationship because relationships are so important in everything.

But I think in hospitality, extremely important.

Jeff Diener: I've been really, really lucky. Um, there have been a few along the way that keep me engaged. And it's sort of, you know, if your interest in whatever it is you're doing sort of, you know, at some point sort of wanes. Every time I'm getting to that point where I start to think, you know, maybe I should just try to do, look at doing something else.

I will be introduced to someone who's working on a project or, you know, they are just so engaging that you just sort of ramp back up again. Like, ah, I remember it now. I love it. Early in my career, I was fortunate to work for Chuck Feeney, who, you know, if you're not familiar with Chuck, this is a person who Warren Buffett said that Chuck is His and Bill Gates hero.

Um, Chuck started Duty Free Shopping, um, and he started Atlantic Philanthropies. So Chuck's whole goal was to die broke. And Chuck, you know, unfortunately passed away pretty recently, but his whole mantra was giving while living. So I was asked to help him sell two resorts in Guam and Saipan, um, so that he could basically take the proceeds and donate them to charity.

And he had this great GC, Bob Goldman, who actually used to work at the firm where I was then working. And Bob and I had to travel the world together, um, and we went to Guam and Saipan. They insisted that I go to the properties. They insisted that I work with local council in person. And then he and I negotiated.

The sale in Hawaii because it was a Japanese buyer and we were based in California and Hawaii was midway and we thought that was a fair compromise. So, you know, I got to work side by side with Bob who, you know, he's got, he has a few years on me. So. If he's listening to this, Bob, don't be offended, but it's true.

You have a few years on me. Um, you know, it was just one of those deals where it was like, it was, it was for all the right reasons, working with great people, our counterparts on the other side were really engaging and easy to work with, and we got the deals done. And they were, you know, I don't want to say they were super complicated deals, but they definitely had some hair on them.

Um, And we got them done. And then, you know, it was one of those things after the deal was done, Bob confided in me and said, you know, when you were staffed on this, we were a little concerned that we, you know, we got this kid basically when we thought we were going to get somebody more seasoned and, um, and he said, you know, it was great.

Like it was really, you know, it was a great experience working with you. And, you know, he and I still keep in touch to this day. And now, you know, like I mentioned, Klein Ohana earlier, I work extensively with another group based here in the Bay area, JMA. And again, it's just really, really good people with great assets too.

So, I mean, they own the Homewood Ski Resort here in Lake Tahoe. Um, and you know, the care with which they treat my family and me, when we go and visit that resort. It's, you know, it's above and beyond. It's, it's no client has to do that for me. Right. I mean, they're paying my hourly rate, but they embody hospitality.

They, they do it the same way. You know, I think they appreciate that. I try to take care of them, that I go that extra mile for them. And they, in turn, go way above and beyond for my family and me and make us feel like family, frankly, when we go and visit one of their properties. So, um. You know, it's experiences like that where you want to kind of keep going with it.

I'm also working with another client, great family. Um, totally unlike anything I've done before. Um, he made his money in the medical products industry and he just bought, I mean, a thousand acres plus back on the East Coast. And we're going to develop a world class resort there. And when I meet with this client, when, you know, I'm back on the East coast meeting with them, I don't stay at a hotel.

I stay at their home. And, you know, like this, it just shows you the level of, um, you know, it goes, it goes beyond the business, obviously, at that point, you know, that that's just, it becomes a special relationship when, you know, you wake up in the morning and your client is downstairs making breakfast for everybody.

And, you know, this, this is going to, we're talking. This is not a small project. This is, you know, billion dollar project. So, um, it's not just like a mom and pop kind of a thing, but you know, it can have that mom and pop kind of a vibe if, if you're open to it.

Dan: Totally. Um, it's interesting. I, thinking about duty free stores or DFS, I remember, um, I think I shared this with you when we were, we were talking, but it must have been 10 or 15 years ago before Apple was getting into the retail space. Um, I don't remember the magazine or newspaper I was reading, but it showed retail space. or retailers who make the most money per square foot per day, month, year. I don't remember what it was. It was, um, the top of us was Tiffany's. It was like 700 and something dollars there. They had like six or eight and, but, but DFS was in there also. It's a huge, a huge company. Um, and I, I forget the number of, uh, For Tiffany's, it was like 700 and something dollars a foot.

Jeff Diener: And DFS blew that out of the water, right?

Dan: No, DFS was below Tiffany's, but Apple came in, Apple came in to do their retail and they never had retail experience and they were like 1, 500 or 2, 000 a foot. So they basically blew that one out of the water. But, um, DFS is a pretty. Um, incredible business. And was Chuck successful in his dream to die broke?

Jeff Diener: As far as I know, he was, I mean, he lived incredibly modestly. I mean, for somebody of his wealth, uh, and his accomplishment, it was so important to

Dan: Did he, did he inspire, um, if you know, Warren, because Warren Buffett also, um, signed

Jeff Diener: Giving while living.

Dan: I think with, it was with a whole bunch of other billionaires. So him, Bill Gates

Jeff Diener: Chuck was the impetus for that.

Dan: Oh,

Jeff Diener: why I think Buffett and Gates, if I understand it correctly, that's why they looked to Feeney as their hero. Chuck also basically funded the Cornell Tech campus in Manhattan. I think he gave a 350 million gift. Chuck gave If I'm not mistaken, I think he gave close to, if not more than a billion dollars back to Cornell University, but he also gave to, I mean, it was such a wide variety of things that he contributed to.

But to, you know, this is a guy who flew coach, you know, well into his eighties, as I understand it, because he would rather take that money. And give it away to a worthwhile cause. And that is just how he was wired. It's incredible. So again, working for someone like that, it's inspiring. And then as it turns out, the people who were in his organization were fantastic people too.

Dan: Wow. That's yeah. I mean, if you look at the cast of characters who are. In the hotel space, developing, um, whether they're trophy properties or just to really deliver experiences, it really takes a certain mindset of really meeting others where they are and, you know, and that whole idea of putting the deal together and finding that 1 plus 1 equals 3, where everyone is winning.

You're providing jobs, you're, you, you, It's not just a real estate asset, there's a, there's an asset, there's a channel of business or multiple channels of business within a, within a hotel. Um, the layers of complexity become almost infinite. And I think that does attract a certain type of person or mindset that it's kept me in it for almost 30 years.

Jeff Diener: Yeah. I mean, isn't it great when you work on one of those projects where everybody just wants to make it happen, you know, and it doesn't have to just be a deal. Like I said, I just wrapped up a settlement agreement. But everybody just wanted to make it happen. Everyone knew it was the right outcome and we just figured out a way to get there.

Dan: and it's amazing. And I guess the other lesson here is. Okay, so you have all these kind of like minded or similar value driven people, and there's so many of us, and it's nice to be able to meet up with someone new like you at a dinner and realize, oh, okay, let's peel back the onion on what, what, and why we, we love about this industry so much.

Jeff Diener: Oh yeah, absolutely. That, yeah, that was a really great dinner. I mean, it was a good group of people that came together. What I found interesting about that particular conference was, and this is what back in January. I spent more time at this conference, um, with clients actually negotiating deals than usual.

Usually I'm at these conferences and it's just sort of more meeting people and chit chatting and finding out what's going on in the industry and, you know, taking that temperature, getting the feel for what's going on. But this time around, um, I found like, you know, there's a, Just a desire. Maybe it's still pent up desire from all the things that didn't happen during COVID, but, you know, people are just so anxious to get their deals over the finish line that I spent a lot of my time at that conference actually, uh, with face to face, you know, meetings, helping advance ongoing transactions.

Dan: And just so everyone knows, the conference is Alice the American. Lodging and investment summit.

Jeff Diener: Yes. Sounds right.

Dan: That's what it stands for. And, um, one of the things that I heard when I was there is that, and maybe this is a data, you just provide a data point in that to kind of validate it. And I don't know how to validate it, but they said in this count, someone said in this calendar year, there'll be more hotel transactions.

Then in the, and then any other calendar year previously. Are you seeing that, feeling that, hearing

Jeff Diener: We've been really busy. We've been really, really busy. Um, I didn't, it hadn't even occurred to me that sort of more than ever. Um, I just know that, you know, we're busy doing deals just like that. Um, mostly, mostly on the buy side at this point. Um, it's, it's definitely, I mean, 24 is off to a very strong start in terms of transactional work.

It'll be interesting to see if it continues that way. Right. I think we have a supposedly another wave of Maturity is coming up at some point during this year. I mean, capital markets are still incredibly difficult. Rates are still relatively high to what we've gotten accustomed to. So if we need to dust off sort of the restructuring skills and figure out, you know, how to restructure some debt and equity, you know, we can do it, but look, everyone's happier when it's.

New deals, right. And getting and creating new value.

Dan: And, and from your, let's just go with the thesis that this will be a busier calendar year for transactions in hotels than most others. Okay, we don't need to attach a superlative. In your experience, when those deals are happening, the horse trading, so to speak, what's the next action for the owner who acquires?

Are they just re flagging? Are they keeping things as they are? Are they doing a full renovation and reposition? Like, if you were to kind of

Jeff Diener: Hmm.

Dan: create a bell curve of like What a Recently acquired property would do, um, in your experience, and you don't have to be scientific, but what's your gut on that?

Jeff Diener: Um, look, I, I think each owner wants to bring their own touch to the property and their own value to the property. So they inevitably will bring some degree of change. I rarely see a client who's buying a property with the goal in mind of just keeping, keeping it as is and they don't see a way of improving it.

Right. There's always sort of the value add strategy. I think it's just, I think as you're pointing out, it's, you know. What's the, what's the range, right? Is it just, uh, you know, new paint, new carpet and, and something as simple as that, or is it, you know, let's get a new flag on there and really reposition this thing.

It's, you know, the, the market around that property has really changed and it can be much better as something else. I mean, for us at, at Baker, you know, I think we're seeing a little bit of everything in that regard. Um, I don't know that it's sort of one. You know, one more than the other, but in each case there's definitely, you know, a value add sort of, you know, they want to put their, their touch on, on the asset and do something special with

Dan: So there's, there's a value add thesis in most of them. It's not just, Oh, this one's really performing. Let's buy its cashflow and kind of just set it and

Jeff Diener: no, because the pricing rarely justifies that, you know, if there's a sort of set it and forget it. Um, I think the.

Dan: Is that unique to hotels where the pricing wouldn't justify?

Jeff Diener: Um, I think in hotels in particular, yeah, I mean, office, maybe you'll see more of that, you know, not, not so much office these days, right, but office generally, right, it's leased up, you know, what your long term cash flow is going to look like, it's a bit of an annuity, right? So it might attract a different buyer.

Um, hotels. Yeah, I mean, again, maybe it comes back to that hospitality mindset, that service mindset of, you know, yeah. That's a great property, but we could do something even better with it. Um, so, it, it might just be part of the, the thinking there, but again, I, you know, if you look at You know, I'm thinking about this in the context of how I provide service to my clients, but the way my clients provide service to their clients is returns.

So, you know, I guess they're looking at, you know, these different hotels and resorts and casinos and what have you, and they're thinking, okay, you know, we can do something special with that asset and create a greater return for our investors, for our clients. So I think, you know, maybe again, maybe it's that hospitality mindset.

And by the, you know,

Dan: I think. And it's also, it's the hospitality mindset. Um, also, like, in those 3 points that you made of, like, I think it was satisfaction, um, security and adventure, I think you said at the beginning.

Jeff Diener: your

Dan: it's that experience.

Jeff Diener: Yeah,

Dan: You're creating that new, um, you're creating that new experience, right?

Because guests are always changing. Markets are always changing. Locations are always

Jeff Diener: it's exciting. It's exciting to work on a hotel project. It's exciting to work on a casino or resort. Like you know that people are going to go and enjoy these places. And it's great by the way, getting to do site visits with your clients. You know, I worked on the city center development in Vegas and got to go to the grand opening.

It was fantastic.

Dan: Oh yeah. Wow. That was a big one. Um, if you think about, um, kind of, you've mentioned office, but think about the, the, the returns that your clients are giving or are striving for, for their investors. Is there like a rule of thumb on You know, multifamily to commercial to hospitality as far as what types of returns are satisfying to LPs.

Jeff Diener: Yeah. I mean, look, hospitality, um, depending on the asset class within hospitality, right, you've got stratification there too, is between, you know, sort of your trophy asset, which might attract an investor for one set of reasons, and then you've got limited service, which, you know, might attract a completely different investor, you know, trophy assets, it might just be about preserving capital, whereas, you know, the, the limited service, it's all about just, um, You know, that's, that's sort of more the set it and forget it kind of, of an asset, right?

But the returns on that could actually be much better than on a trophy asset. But some people just want to get to own, you know, the Peninsula Hotel somewhere. Um,

Dan: Hmm.

Jeff Diener: so I think, yeah, I mean, you know, it's sort of the usual formula of, you know, the riskier, the higher rate of return that's expected.

Historically, office was seen as a pretty safe. Because, you know, think about, um, your guests or your occupants, right? Like the guests at a hotel, it's a new, call it a lease every 24 hours, right? They're in and they're out. Whereas office, you know, you've got people who are in there for 5, 10, 15, 20 years. So there used to be greater security in an office.

Now it's, it's, you know, since COVID, it's kind of been shook up quite a bit that way. Um, multifamily for the longest time, everyone thought that was super secure, right? I mean, it's, we have a housing shortage. Um, but again, you're finding that it's really, you know. It's about the quality of the underlying real estate at the end of the day.

So, you know, just because you've built multifamily, if it's not the right quality, or it's not in the right location, you're not going to see your, your return on it. Um, I think. People who historically have also been very focused on one asset class versus another have now are more flexible about that. I mean, people have historically only looked at say office and not thinking, geez, this isn't what we thought it was.

Or it's, you know, certainly not in some places. We need to look beyond that. So like logistics, for example, right? Like that, that was super hot during COVID. Um, you know, I was working with clients who were buying up whatever logistics space they could get their hands on. And now that's cooled off. So

Dan: Yeah,

Jeff Diener: kind of, you know, it depends on the times.

Dan: it, yeah, it's interesting. I think, especially, you know, you mentioned interest rates before, um, you know, when you're performing out a an acquisition, and whatever those returns are, let's say they're 18 to 25 percent. They're somewhere hovering around 20, 20 percent, I think is a rule of thumb.

And then you factor in what the financing costs are right now. I feel like that's a, you know, they're, they're kind of three or four times what they were just a couple of years ago. Right. And, or the, and that really must put a lot, a lot of pressure on getting deals done too, because They don't pencil out as easy, as easily because of all the financing costs.

Jeff Diener: Oh yeah. I mean, there are plenty of deals that no longer pencil as a result of the finance bust. Right. Um, and. Deals like refis that maybe we would have gotten done in six weeks, I'm finding, you know, we're trying to get them done in three or four, because when you get the financing lined up, you don't want to wait around for the next market turbulence to happen that can upset it or prevent a closing from occurring.

So, you know, I've heard the expression, a quick deal is a good deal. And I think that's especially true in the land of. Finance, because, you know, these days you don't know, you know, what's in store. Uh, it's pretty unpredictable the last few years. So, you know, when we get a term sheet locked in, we just want to move and get it done quickly.

And sometimes that means putting pressure on our own clients to be responsive to diligence requests, for example, from the lender team and knowing. That, that right balance between pushing hard enough and becoming a nuisance, right? And, and doing what you can to make sure that the deal is getting executed.

Um, because the last thing you want to do is sort of, you know, lose your financing, especially if you got a loan that's coming due in the next, you know, eight weeks or whatever it is, you want to make sure it's done.

Dan: Yeah. I mean, we're all reading about these in the papers and we're seeing it in person. It's cool to get your first hand experience. Now with the turbulence and the increased, um, busyness and, and deal flow, as you're looking out into the future, what's exciting you most?

Jeff Diener: Oh, wow. Um, look, market, market turbulence always creates excitement, right? It always creates opportunity, I think, if you have the right sort of mindset for it. We've got plenty of great clients who, um, you know, they know how to capitalize on market turbulence, and they know how to take advantage of it as opposed to being frightened by it.

And I think we, as a firm, also thrive in that environment. Like, we try to stay in front of those types of things, too, where, you know, we see something coming down. It's all about getting information out there to the clients and saying, Hey, like, well, this is what we're seeing in the space. You know, how, how can we help you with this?

Or this is what we're seeing in a space. This is how we think we can help you with that. As opposed to putting it to them as a question, like being able to provide value up front. I think, um, look, hopefully it's the deal. It's, you know, it's the year, like you were describing earlier, which just about getting more and more deals done.

That would be great. If we, you know, if we saw that, um, Yeah. I think, you know, if interest rates can drop a little bit lower, I think that would help ease a lot of fears and help us get even more, more deals done. Um, so again, like we've got a great pipeline and, um, you know, we, as a group, I think we're, we're ready, we're prepared.

And it's, you know, I know we're working with a lot of great clients already, um, in terms of helping them execute on, you know, whatever deals they've got going on and what they've got coming down the. So it's nothing, it's, it's kind of, you know, it's, I couldn't even begin to predict at this point. I don't, I don't, you know, the odds of my getting it right.

Um, these days, it's like when I was, when I was more focused on restructuring. I remember thinking every time we would see a recession like, oh, this is going to be it, you know, this is going to be a really bad one. And you know, it turns out, no, like, you know, people might be able to buy assets for call it, you know, 85, 75 cents on the dollar instead of a hundred cents.

But you know, you're not seeing the, the 25, 30 cent buyer sales these days. Like there's just a lot of capital out there. There are a lot of sophisticated buyers. And you know, the flow of information is so strong these days that, you know, it's um, it's hard to find that sort of bargain basement 35 cent on the dollar, 25 cent on the dollar deal.

Dan: that's what I was most surprised about during COVID is, you know, hospitality got Slaughtered, right? And everyone, like, if you, if you look at where you would think the money would be going and the deals would be going, it would be fine those 25 or 30 cent on the dollar deals. I'm sure there were a couple out there, um, maybe in the commercial mortgage backed kind of

area where it's a little bit more difficult to

Jeff Diener: It was a very tight window of time when it looked like the world was coming to an end and you could get one of those deals, but it was really

Dan: How tight of a window

Jeff Diener: months.

Weeks, if not months,

Dan: okay, because at the other, on the other side of it, you know, if that was the, the quote, easy money, like, oh, we're going to pick up. You know, for cents on the dollar, some great properties. I, I heard or read somewhere that there was like a trillion plus dollars of cash that was on the sidelines, waiting to pounce on these deals, but they never really.

it never really materialized.

Jeff Diener: couldn't materialize, right? Because you had owners who didn't want to let go, right? They don't want to get, they don't want the loss. Uh, and you had lenders who didn't necessarily want to take the assets back because unlike 2008, where you really did have over leverage and mismanagement.

You didn't have as much of that during COVID, right? Like hotels weren't doing poorly because they were being mismanaged. They were doing poorly because no one was allowed to visit the hotels. There were no guests. That's not a problem with management. So if a lender were to take that hotel back, what could it possibly do differently with it, right?

So, or man, what were they going to do differently? There's nothing to manage. There were no guests.

Dan: Yes.

Jeff Diener: So, so it was similar to 08 and that is sort of, you know, um, extend and pretend, right, where you just sort of let it go out longer. So, to the extent that we were able to, like, we work with clients on getting.

three to six month extensions on, you know, loans and pushing things out. And we would sort of do it over and over again. Now, of course, our ask was always, look, let's just give us the 12 month extension to begin with, because we know we're going to be here three to six months from now. But, you know, lenders wanted to keep that pretty, pretty tight as well.

But the deals didn't happen because it's like real estate through so many other periods. If you could just hold on to the asset and weather the storm, if it's a good asset, You'll be fine at the end of the day. It's just a matter of weather

Dan: And I

Jeff Diener: and storm.

Dan: and perhaps 2008, if you think of like the invisible hand of Adam Smith and the free market, it kind of put the fear of God into a lot of developers and ownership groups because they didn't want to over leverage and overextend themselves and get into that. So in a way. the market kind of

Jeff Diener: Yeah, and even if they wanted to over leverage after 2008, it was a lot more difficult to do that with lenders. You know, lenders were far more disciplined since that experience, I think. So.

Dan: and they're part of that invisible hand as well. Right. In that free market. So it's like it kind of self regulating quote unquote, their, their risk and, uh, and, and how they approach the market.

Jeff Diener: I mean, like you go back to the peak of the, of the frothy buying, like 2006, 2007, right, right before the music ended, I mean, people were doing stuff that they shouldn't have been doing. They were buying stuff without properly diligencing it. They were leveraging. They were, I mean, leveraging to the point where it was absurd, where they were leaving themselves no margin and they were putting no equity into the deals really.

Right. So they had no incentive. Yeah. Yeah. If the times got tough to try to figure things out, it was easy to just walk away and say, Oh, we didn't

lose anything anyway.

Dan: could you imagine what would have happened if COVID happened in like 2009?

Jeff Diener: Oh man. Like a double whammy. Um,

Dan: Yeah, that would have been, because you would have had to, oof,

Jeff Diener: it would have been, it would have been something, I mean, you know, to have the financial collapse and then this sort of world collapse. On top of that, maybe, you know, maybe there would have been more buying opportunities. Again, you know, it's a matter of finding the opportunity in it at the end of the day, right?

And like, look at us now after COVID, right? I mean, hospitality has come back so strong since then. I mean, there was so much pent up demand. Now business travel is in the back as strong as, you know, uh, pleasure travel, but there's still room to grow then, right? I

Dan: yeah, with the limited inventory, it should be really good.

Jeff Diener: the pricing is out of control, right? I mean, I don't know, you know, like the last few times I stayed at places, I've, you know, bug eyed over the, you know, the, the rates.

Dan: oh, it's ridiculous, and the, and the rooms are thrashed also, right? Because they're not reinvesting in the, Uh, in the CapEx and maintaining and updating, but whatever, that's a whole other story. Um, you, from the time that you were at Cornell to when you figured out getting your JD, MBA, and then finding hospitality as a, as a specialty within your law practice.

Um, if you could go back in time to yourself in Ithaca and ask yourself, Your 19 or 20 year old self or give your give your 19 or 20 20 year old self some advice at the what was that? The hot truck

was that the place you'd go get like all your

Jeff Diener: Yeah, definitely.

Dan: So if you magically appeared in front of your 20 year old 20 year old self in front of the hot truck What advice would you have for yourself?

Jeff Diener: because it's something that I haven't figured out till much later in life, and that is really cherish the relationships that you have with people and put the time into those relationships that they deserve. Um, that would, it's both self serving, um, but it's also an appreciation that I think I discovered as I've gotten older, um, and I've been through different experiences, you know, I thought when I was at Cornell, just because I was a bright guy meant that I would just be successful, and I couldn't have been more wrong about what it takes to be successful. Now, I'm really lucky because, like, I've had great, great friends who just They understood that about me. You know, they understood I was just sort of a nerd and I loved learning and I would do really well in school and I was a good friend, but I didn't always put the time and effort into the friendships that I think I could have or wish I had.

I mean, that's something I would have done differently over time. Like my college roommates, I'm still super close with them. And now it's even better because I think I reciprocate. The relationship in ways that I didn't always do previously. And then I think back to like my, the mentors that I've had along the way and the people who are like really trying to look out for me along the way.

And I don't know that I appreciated it as much as I could have when I was younger or should have when I was younger, but in hindsight, I certainly do. Um, like when I first came out of law school, my first job, I worked for two partners who really had my back. And at the time, I presumed that if I do great work, people will always have my back.

You know, I'm doing great work, they'll take care of me. That is totally incorrect. Um, you know, certainly within law firms, just because you do great work doesn't mean people will protect you. And look out for you. So like, you know, like those two people, I, I didn't really understand how good I had it with them.

And when I told them I was leaving that firm so I could go move to Japan, they thought I was crazy. And, you know, now as a, as a partner myself, I better understand why they thought I was so crazy to, you know, pick up and reload, you know, not only change firms, but, you know, move to the other side of the world.

Um, it's not to say I would have done anything differently in terms of my career decision making. But I think I would have spent more of my time with people and then slightly less of my time sort of on my own doing whatever it was I was doing, you know, reading whatever it was I was reading or learning whatever it was I was learning.

I think I could have afforded to do slightly less of that and spend more time with the people because You know, I'm constantly, um, gratified by the time that I spend with different people. Like, you know, like our dinner, you know, years ago I would have skipped a dinner like that and just, no, I've got so much work to do.

I'm just going to go back to my room and eat at my desk and just, you know, knock out some more documents, do whatever I have to do. And it's taken a real conscious effort on my part to say, you know what? No, like I'm going to go to this dinner. I already know I'm going to know half the people there and I enjoy the time with them.

I don't know the other half of the people who are going to be there, and I might really enjoy it. Go to the dinner. Um, so that's not only advice I would give to my 19 or 20 year old self, it's the advice I would give to others at that age too, who are, you know, if they're like myself, more introverted and less socially inclined, um, take the time.

You know, it's, it's, you know, you stand to learn a lot from the people around you. Um, we just had our partner retreat in Phoenix and it was amazing. Um, you know, like. The Baker Haas Stetler retreat is great because it's so inclusive and it's so focused on bringing us together and, you know, I spent time with my partners there.

Of course, we talk about business, but it's so much more and it goes well beyond that. And then we had a speaker come in, uh, Christy Pink, who's with Ritz Carlton, and she talked about client service and, and, and, you know, service excellence. And. There's a really great, great talk. I mean, not only is she a great speaker, very succinct, you know, no sort of ums and ahs, she really knew her stuff, but the things she was talking about, as soon as that, as soon as her program ended, I pinged our managing partner and said, this should be mandatory for everyone at our firm.

And I don't mean just the attorneys. support staff as well. Everyone should understand what she was saying about the importance of client service. Um, yeah. And it was, it was great. And then I,

Dan: Did she write a book too?

Jeff Diener: I don't know, I don't know, but I pinged her. I reached out to her afterwards and it just to let her know how much what she was saying resonated with me.

Dan: you know what, that, when we stop, I would love to get her information because I, that whole Ritz Carlton way that, um, Horst Schulze came up with, ladies and gentlemen, serving ladies and gentlemen, um, I, I always say like, hey, Hey, We're in a, we're selling furniture, we're providing furniture, but it's really not that.

It's the service. It's like, how do you get all the stuff designed, approved, shipped, delivered, problems dealt with

Jeff Diener: absolutely. I

Dan: without causing stress to others and really meeting everyone else where they are? And I think, you know, and I think that applies to everything. That's why I think this podcast is really done.

So well and grown, it's because hospitality and meeting others where they are and that level of service applies to everything and it can all be very instructive to help us improve.

Um,

Jeff Diener: that's why I was glad that we had someone like that come in to speak to us because I think it's. It speaks to our core values as a firm as well, right? Like that you had our highest revenue earners all taken out of work for that two or three days, right? And an hour and change of that time was allocated to hearing this person.

Um, and that's why I thought like, you know, it's, if it's a part of our core culture, then it shouldn't just be the, the partners who are listening to this, right. And embodying that, right. It's, it's not that I work for Ritz Carlton. She was saying is that I, you know, I am Ritz Carlton right now. That's a little bit extreme, I suppose, but, you know, if you target that, maybe you'll

get really close to

Dan: 100 percent appreciate that. And it's, and it's, again, it all comes back to like, to values and like, what business are we in? What business are we in? And it's in hospitality. And I would even say every business, it's about service and meeting others where they are. Um, on that note, I. have loved this conversation so much.

And if people wanted to learn more about you or Baker Hostetler, what's a good way, uh, for them to get in

touch?

Jeff Diener: They can email me at jddiener at bakerlaw. com. Visit our website, BakerLaw. com, uh, we are not hard to find, just don't confuse us with the other firms that also have Baker in their name, we're Baker Hostetler, um, but yeah, I'd be happy, look, I love talking about hospitality, I love talking about the deals that we do, I love helping clients solve their problems, grow their businesses, so, you know, I'm always Thanks.

Happy to, to, to chat about any of those things. And again, I appreciate your having me on today. It was really great. Uh, man, the time, the time just flew. I knew it would.

Dan: I know. Well, I also want to thank Aggie because I know you were invited to that dinner. I had no plans that night and, um, Aggie invited me and I just said, yes,

Jeff Diener: He's great. We're working on a deal together. So we've known each other for a few years now. And we're working on a project together and it's, it's great. You gotta love that, right? Like when somebody you've known for a long time, and then you get to finally work together on something. So yeah, that was a great, there was a lot of people at that dinner that, uh, Keith Brennan was at that dinner too with Weitzman and, you know, he and I are working on this project side by side and it's been a fantastic experience.

And in the small world, I've worked with Keith's brother, Coley, you know, it's just. The hospitality industry is just one of those industries.

Dan: Well, I'm, he's in Chicago,

Jeff Diener: Uh, so Keith is in Chicago. Yes,

Dan: Yeah. I'm gonna, I'm, I should be there in a couple of weeks. I'm

Jeff Diener: should reach out to him. He's great. He's doing a great job on this, on this development project that we're doing. I can't wait till it's, uh, public so we can share more about it.

Dan: Awesome. Um, well, I want to say thank you to you. I really appreciate your time and the conversation and just sharing your journey and putting yourself out there. Um, so thank you, Jeff. I really appreciate it.

Jeff Diener: Thanks, Dan. Really appreciate your having me on. It's great catching up with you.

Dan: And I appreciate all of our listeners as well, because I wouldn't be talking to cool people like Jeff if it wasn't for you and the growth we have every single week. So if this has changed your idea on hospitality or meeting others where they are, please pass it along. We've grown organically through word of mouth and uh, please share, like, comment, all that stuff.

And we'll catch you next time. Thank you.