Defining Hospitality

DH - Ian Mills/Becca Roderick
===

[00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.

This podcast is sponsored by Berman Fall Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Today's guests are experts at project management, leadership, architecture, and interior design. He brings almost 20 years of experience working mainly in the south and on the west coast with previous projects, working with the likes of Four Seasons at St.

Regis. She also has 20 years of experience designing and managing projects with the likes of AvroKo, one Kings Lane, and many more. They're both executive directors [00:01:00] of architecture and interiors respectively. At Morris Adjmi Architects, ladies and gentlemen, Ian Mills and Becca Roderick. Welcome.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Hey Dan. Thanks so much for having us. Thanks, Dan.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: It is. So, it's so good to have you here and I love the challenge of multiple guests because mostly it's all one-on-one and I love it when I get uncomfortable, challenging my capabilities. So I want to thank you both for being here because I also think it's super incredibly important that we get an architect and an interior designer on the call because oftentimes there's conflict between the two.

But I find that that conflict often finds the best path forward that yields the greatest results. And I want to like dig into that because at ma, can I call it ma?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Yeah, always definitely.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Awesome. Um, it's really interesting that you [00:02:00] have both of these in-house and working in Congress. So, but before we dig into all of that, I want to just ask each of you.

How do you define hospitality? Becca, you go first.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I'll go first. I think this is the challenge, a little bit of working together too. When is it the right time to speak? So we're gonna, we're gonna practice our excellent, um, together skills and try to take turns on display

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: love it. Who?

Who packs the biggest punch? Interiors generally, or architects.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I think we take turns. Dan, what are you trying to do? We take turns. You're setting, you're setting this up for a sparring match.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Yeah. It's like that social media thing where the music comes on and then they both start fighting. Right. And then the good stuff comes out.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: ready, right?

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Yes.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Ready?

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: No, but Becca, you go first. How do, what does hospitality mean to you?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: we've been thinking about this a lot recently, I think, um, internally, and so I think I've a very clear sort of definition of it in my head. And I think when you, when you [00:03:00] strip everything back and peel things away, hospitality is really about caring for people and fostering community. And I think caring for people really, really filters down to this sort of sense of belonging and, um, sort of encouraging these sort of meaningful connections between people.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Hmm.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: by the way, I don't think that's necessarily tied to budget or exclusivity of an experience. It, it's, you can be in a fast casual or sort of casual space and feel very cared for and like you belong in that space.

And alternately you can be in a very high end space and feel equally as cared for. So

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Hmm.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: not specific to budget, uh, but it is really what it's all about at the end of the day.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Great. And Ian, how about you?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Yeah, I think, um, similarly, it's, you know, just sort of showing people a good time, uh, you know, just allowing for that to happen and, and sort of fostering that. But, um, you know, [00:04:00] and, and, and not being too heavy handed, and I guess we think about that, you know, from a design perspective of allowing that to happen or, you know, fostering that without sort of being too heavy handed, um, with, with your hospitality.

Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Hmm. Now I wanna go back to that collaboration and conflict and I don't know, like that recipe that I think makes for such incredible outcomes. So ma, because when I think of ma in the past, I know differently now, but when I think of ma from the past, like it's this incredible architecture firm that doesn't builds these incredible build designs, these incredible buildings.

But walk me through the, the thinking on. Getting and really bolstering that interior side of things. And in a perfect world, I know sometimes you may work on just the architecture, sometimes just the interiors, many times, both. Um, what's the [00:05:00] best possible outcome on a, on a project where you're actually, where you're doing both, and from like the entire client experience to how you set up and collaborate on projects to the end result.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I think it starts from the beginning with the sort of creation of the big idea for the project. The, the narrative, the concept idea, the sort of North star. And I think if, if architecture and interiors is aligned in that vision, which we are, if we're working together on a project, I think it becomes efficient for the client.

It becomes, the messaging is clear from an aesthetic perspective and I think that end user really feels that in their experience of the project. So I think, you know, that really is a sort of like. Pinnacle of where things start is that initial discussion about a project, its context and the, work that we're doing there and having that sort of alignment between architecture and [00:06:00] interiors in order to sort of, as you said, Ian, to foster that going forward, I think is just really critical.

It's a game changer That is like where the magic happens, right?

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Okay, so now we heard it from the interior side. Now, Ian is your ma. Is your magic perceived differently?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: That's totally different. No, no, I'm kidding. No, I, I think it's the same. Um, and I, you know, I'm appreciative of Becca, you know, joining the team and, and really like helping to, to bolster the, the ID side of the practice because I, you know, really there, there, you know, it's really critical to have both. And I, um, I think what she's saying is right where, you know, the, at the beginning of the project, it's like where the ideas are very. or just, you know, kind of coming and going easily. It's great to have both teams present at that point, and both teams like very invested and, and to really [00:07:00] establish that concept. And then, and then Id may, um, not work on the project for a while, but to, for that very focused early phase of the project where the ideas are really being established and like the, the North Star is being established.

It's really nice, uh, to have everyone at that table. And that's really hard to do when the, the architecture is separate from the interiors. So,

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Yeah,

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: no, I couldn't agree more.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: A trend that I've been seeing is many of these larger architecture companies that, and specifically to hospitality that don't have a hospitality com interiors component to them have been acquiring, um, interiors interior companies as like a bolt onto their overall service that they're bringing to the market.

And it's helping them win a lot more projects. Uh, what's interesting is that's through an acquisition model, but at MA you guys are building this up from within. So I'm curious, like [00:08:00] when did that strategy really become first and foremost at ma and what kind of successes have you been seeing since that has been implemented?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I think that was the, the impetus for success in introducing interiors as a practice in general. Right? It,

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Hmm.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: was really about, a desire to have spaces that on the inside that sort of matched the level of design work that was happening on the outside, which was sort of award-winning, fantastic architecture, and then wanting to sort of control that experience.

Mm-hmm. Um. Through to the interior. So I think from really the inception of the interior's practice at ma, that was always sort of the goal and we're, we're having a lot of success in the recent past with, with hospitality. But I think if you look from the very beginning of MA Interiors, which I think was 20 12, 20 13 ish, [00:09:00] um, you'll really see a lot of very strong projects, more strong than you might normally expect to see coming out of an architecture firm. I mean, we could talk about Wythe hotel a little bit,

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Totally.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: on the cusp of, of the interiors practice and was a collaboration with folks, um, at ma and outside of the office. But I think, you know, that's a project that's still really strong today from an interior's perspective. So I think it really. really is from the inception, this idea of wanting to have world class interiors to match sort of our world class architecture and, um, you know, building it from the ground up and sort of investing in the people to make that happen.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Now

I know when you say the Wyeth, um, is it Yif or Wythe? See my pronunciation Wythe.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Wyeth.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: It's one, one syllable

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: w

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Wythe.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Wythee.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: So going in that, and then if you were to, since 2012 or 13, what, what do you, just to frame it up for our listeners, what do you think the [00:10:00] three most impactful projects that you, that y'all have worked on?

I. That MA has worked on from an architecture and also incorporating the interior's perspective.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: That's a hospitality specific. I would say the Wythe for sure, which was the first hotel project we had and also was extremely impactful in that neighborhood, uh, of, of North Williamsburg. Um, I think the Good Time hotel, which which I worked on, and, we did not do the interiors on for better or worse. Uh, we, we, been nice to, but, um, and then the third, Forth, Forth, yeah, Forth, uh, hotel in Atlanta has been, has, was completed this year or last year.

And it, it's been, yeah, it's been really impactful and it was, um, yeah, that was a great, it's, it's a great, [00:11:00] uh, collaboration and even kind of juxtaposition between interiors and, and architecture. It's a, it's, it, they're very distinct, uh, designs that, that. you wouldn't think automatically would work well together, but they really do.

And I think it also kind of speaks to where we are in terms of those two aspects of the practice, really having their own voice and, you know, having the confidence to independently, sort of, um, or, or, or sort of somewhat independently and, and somewhat collaboratively. So

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Mm.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: really a great,

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Okay. And there, I, I'm glad you brought the Forth up, and I'd like to dig into that one a little bit more because I. I've spoken to many people who were architects and became interior's focus, and I've spoken to many people who are interior focused and then said, you know what? I want to do the architecture.

And again, going on the premise that where you're bringing both of these skillsets to [00:12:00] bear. You said something that there was an interesting duck juxtaposition at the Forth where there was like a conflict, but it, it turned into a really cool, um, presentation of what hospitality is from an architecture and interiors.

So imagine, and maybe we can take a photo and drop it into the YouTube version of this, but walk us through what that interesting juxtaposition is that I could maybe overlay a, uh, a photo, um, or a couple of photos that would describe it as you're speaking.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Do you wanna start with the architecture? Yeah. I mean, we started in that project, um, we started the architecture as we usually do it, and the operator, you know, the operator is the, is the, is a, is a partner in the whole thing that, that's important. And it's, they, they drive a lot of, um, you know, logistical but also aesthetic decisions.

And so, um, the operator, operator came a little bit later in that, in that conversation, but [00:13:00] the architecture was something that the client really wanted to be iconic and they wanted this kind of jewel box. Um, building that, that could be seen from it. It's in the old Forth ward in Atlanta, and it's Right, uh, on a, on a large, open space.

And so they, you wanted to be able to see this kind of great jewel box building from across the park and have it be this kind of, uh, icon really for this, this development. Um, and so, you know, that's where we came up with it, sort of dia grid structure, um, that, that would be a striking building. Uh, and then as we, you know, that was the first sketch we did, and that's one of the, one of the few projects where the first sketch literally, uh, is built. Um, and so we really didn't change much. There's a few little tweaks here and there, but, um, and so that strong. Sort of design was established very early on, and, and it's very modern. It's sort of Florida, you know, ceiling floor to ceiling [00:14:00] glass. Uh, and it's, it's pretty sort of, uh, spare. And then, when the operator got involved, who, whose method who we, we also might, might talk about more, um, they started to, you know, have a, have a sense of what they wanted, the, the feeling to be like, and it wasn't.

You know, it wasn't totally matching with the exterior aesthetic, but I think we're able to pair those, uh, really successfully. I don't know if you have more to add. Absolutely. I mean, I think, I think when you have the sort of strong juxtaposition the way we do there, it feels like it transports you, right?

You, you walk up to this building, it feels clean, it feels sparse, um, but very impactful. But once you walk through the doors of that project, you're sort of immediately transported somewhere else. And I think that there's something really magical about that kind of experience, particularly in a hotel.

You're, you're there to get away to sort of be in a new place. And I think if you can have that sort of moment [00:15:00] of transportation to another world or another way of being, as you sort of walk through those doors, the project's gonna be a great success. And I think it is very different on the inside, but I think that's, that's part of what makes it so successful.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Yeah. And I, speaking from my own experience, I was down, um, in Atlanta, I think in the fall for, um, an entrepreneurial conference. And I remember a group of the people were all like, they were trying to figure out what to do, uh, before dinner. They're like, oh, let's all go and check out the Forth. It's really amazing, um, from an architectural perspective and just go in and, and see what it was all about.

And it was, it's a, it's a really remarkable building. And how often is the first sketch.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Not often, but I mean, I, I think that it just boiled down to a very simple, you know, a very simple sketch. I mean, you could sketch it [00:16:00] in, you know, two seconds and that, that I think is the power, you know, oftentimes that those are the best projects where, uh, it's just a simple idea. Just, you know, sort of a, a dia grid exterior that, um, just created. lot of cool moments, you know, around the building and different, different ways to experience the building from below. You know, there's a big podium on, on that project too. So there's a lot of public space where you're very close to the, to the building and kind of, you know, getting these cool views of it.

And, um, so. Yeah, I mean, it was sort of a powerful, simple move that, that everyone was able to latch onto, like, like Becca was saying, of sort of like this north star, uh, for the project. And, uh, this was, I, I don't know that this was the North star for, for everyone, but it was just a simple idea that everyone latched onto that.

Like we couldn't, no one wanted to let it go. And so, uh, when you don't have an idea that's so, uh, simple, it's very easy to sort of get it, have it [00:17:00] be watered down because, you know, there's, you're not clear what the idea is. So it's sort of, uh,

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Mm.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: e more easily lost, uh, you know, sort of in the, in the progress of the, project, which is inevitably a very arduous and, you know, difficult journey to, to keep your idea intact.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Okay. So now speaking about that one, let's sh shift over to Brooklyn and the Wyeth Hotel. What's a moment in there that you feel does a really good job of addressing and balancing out that interiors? Versus architecture. What's, what's like that moment, um, within that project that stands out to, to you, Becca.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I think some of what makes Wythe so special is that it really was on the cusp of the development of Williamsburg to what it is today. You know, it was very early in sort of the development of that neighborhood. And we have one picture, which I think we could, we can share with you and flash up for the [00:18:00] folks watching on YouTube, but it has a picture of one of the hotel rooms and then an adjacent building with a vintage advertisement on it.

And I think that conversation between, you know, we're very contextual designers. Morris always says. You know, we stand out, our buildings stand out by fitting in, and I think there couldn't be anything sort of more perfect than seeing this hotel room bed and the adjacent building with this sort of vintage advertisement painted on the facade of the building that's coming in through the window of this hotel room in a really beautiful way.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Mm.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: we couldn't be more perfectly contextual than that. And I think that really speaks to the sort of language between the interior and the exterior on that project.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Cool.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: that also it also has a similar, um, sort of aspect to the, to the Forth where the portions of the building that are new are, are very clearly modern very clearly.

Um. Juxtaposed to the [00:19:00] existing building. Um, and so there's that kind of juxtaposition. And that also was a, ver was another very simple, um, kind of sketch. I, I don't, Morris has the sketch actually where he first sketched it, um, with the hotel sign going down the building. And, but the new, the new portion of that building, uh, being very sort of modern, it's, it's a sort of a very, you know, just glass sort of, um, window wall. Uh,

and, and so, and the interiors are, um, you know, they had to sort of work with both scenarios where it's like a punched window, a brick punched window, but also a full, you know, floor to ceiling, uh, glass window. And so yeah, kind of similar motif there to the, to the Forth.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: So now I wanna go back to the beginning of our conversation where I was asking like, what's the best type of project where a client of yours would bring on architects and enters in with intention straight from the beginning. Um, [00:20:00] walk us through like a situation where that happens, which I'm sure it happens more frequently now, but when you say setting it up and getting all aligned around the North Star from a process perspective, when you're kicking it off and the client is all all on board with ma hook, line and sinker from the beginning, like what, How do you kick that off together, and how do you do everything you can to ensure success, like in those other projects that we just spoke about?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I mean, I think we start with research always. That's kind of. basis of our design work. And, and that might be research on the city, the state, the block, the building itself of it's an adaptive reuse project. Or even the site, if there isn't a building there, what, what that sort of like, research exploration is really

critical to us and usually something reveals itself that we're interested in or want to know more about.

And I think [00:21:00] that that is always the start of the project for us. And I think, then it, then it's about sort of attaching ourselves to the right piece of that research or the right pieces of that research that are gonna kind of tell the story about the project. Um, and then I think you, you sort of layer in, we, we like the client to be in kind of involved in that too.

You know, they've, even when people bring us a project, they've often been working on making this project a reality for weeks or months before they. Engage us from a design capacity. So they also have sort of perspective on, on what the project means or little tidbits of history about the site or the building or the location that they wanna share with us.

And so that, that feels really critical to us just sort of, um, them involved from the very beginning and hearing their perspective. And I think, um. To speak of success. It's, it's really about kind of finding the right big idea and uh, [00:22:00] and feeling good about that from an interior or from an internal perspective. Um, and then getting the client on board and having them feel good about it. Um, there's a lot of players involved in, in creating a successful project. So I think if we can be really aligned with the client and they can buy into sort of what our big idea is, I think that's only gonna sort of support the success as you add layers as you add operators and, you know, maybe you have a separate designer for an f and b space, um, you know, there's, by the end of the project you've got loads of people involved.

So I think the sort of stronger out of the gate idea you have, the better off the project will be and the more buy-in from the really the key stakeholders.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: So when I hear you say, big idea and I look at your, you know, your catalog of PR past work, these are not standard. Projects by any stretch of the means, right? I mean, they're all architect. I would say architecturally significant and challenging and like [00:23:00] remarkable, right? So that doesn't apply to every single client that's out there, like to have a big idea and to be able to execute that from just being able to construct it.

Um, there's gotta be some real vision and investment behind it as well. So for these kind of like Marques projects that you're working on that are kind of architecturally redefining of an area, right? Um, that's not for every, every developer that's out there, they really, there's a certain level of commitment that they, they gotta buy in with you.

So like what

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: what are your challenges in finding those types of projects?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I think we've been very, and this is obviously a credit to Morris, but he's been very successful in carving out a niche, uh, for the firm where we work largely on, um, commercial projects or, you know, projects with developers that are [00:24:00] for-profit. Um, but they're with clients that really value design.

They're with developers that are very knowledgeable and very, uh, savvy about the value that design can bring and, and very respectful of it. And so when you say it's not, it's not, um, you know, for every developer that's true. I mean, there are some, you know, there are some, uh, clients that we have that, that maybe. Aren't fully on aware of, uh, or let's say we would like them to be more appreciative of the, of what, you know, we, we think the value is in, what we can offer. Uh, but we always bring that to the table. You know, we're always, we're not, uh, there's not like sort of marquee projects and non marquee projects.

We're bringing the same, uh, mentality and sort of rigor to every project because, I, I think because, you know, maybe foolishly, we do think that every project can change the neighborhood [00:25:00] that it's in or, or, you know, the sort of narrative of, of that street or, or the, or the people in the building. Um, so yeah, maybe that's naive.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Well, yeah, and I, I'd love to dig into that a little bit more because when, when did Morris start? The firm?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: 97

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: 97.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: yeah. Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: a, there's that, there's a book out there called the Founder's Dilemma, right?

And it's okay, so how do you keep growing and offering new products and services, but also stay true to that, those founding principles and working on those types of projects that are like, in this case, like architecturally, I would say significant. Right? So how do you like as on the receiving end of that and being part of this growth and team and, you know, Morris is involved, but really he's [00:26:00] trusting the next wave of people to keep growing and working on these projects.

How does he get his, get involved in the projects, but also trust that like, Hey, you guys are pretty freaking awesome and like go, go, go, go.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I think he's done a really good job at creating a of identity to the firm that's very digestible and very, I guess it's at the, it's at the same time. It's very easy to digest, but also easy to adapt and also easy to sort of, um, see where you could take it. Uh, I, I think that, and he allows that kind of, um, exploration in the, in the studio.

Right? So there, there are. Buildings that you're like that, that's an MA building. I mean, we get sort of, I get texts from clients all the time being like, this must be you. I'm walking down the street in Charleston. It's like, this has gotta be an MA building.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Yeah.[00:27:00]

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: and

it's

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: And was it, were they right? Were they right,

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Or did someone rip you off?

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: exactly. Were they right? Was that client Right? That's the, that's

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: exactly.

And so that is a total testament to, to Morris's, you know, vision about, about buildings and, and you know, and, and it's easy for people to grasp that and, um, ex outside of the firm, but inside the firm too. And I think that, um, yeah, that, that's sort of how I see personally, you know, that, that being able to be possible and also for that, uh, to be. a, a big, you know, sort of advantage of the firm is that we can, not, you know, like a Frank Gary or, or something like that, where it's like, it's clearly, it's his hand. Literally his hand is the one sketching the, uh, the curves. Um, you know, I think, I think our, um, sort of position on [00:28:00] architecture and interiors is more dynamic and I would say more interesting because it, it really engages, like we were saying, you know, a lot of, um, tradition.

It's a lot of, uh, tradition that we're really understanding and then, um, sort of commenting on, or, or, or building on. I

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: I love it.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: to Morris's really commitment to collaboration too, particularly in the office, I think. We have an incredibly collaborative atmosphere just at Pinups. He's very accessible to, to staff and to project teams, you know, to pull him in.

We meet with him weekly or sometimes daily, depending on the project for advice or sort of clarity. Um, but he's not sort of a top down, you know, sort of founder, I would say. You know, if he has a great idea, we're certainly going to go with it. But if, if somebody who's an intermediate designer has an amazing idea, [00:29:00] nobody is gonna say, oh, oh, but you're, you're junior staff.

We don't, we don't pursue those ideas. It really is about sort of getting in a room, talking things through what's the direction here, and the sort of about a project or ideas about a project can come from anybody in those spaces. And I think their voice is valued in that way. And I, I think that that's part of the magic that he's sort of created here is that type of environment.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Hmm.

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dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: And then, um, Becca, as far as your experience on the interior side of things, like working for many different, pretty awesome [00:30:00] interiors firms, and then what's interesting about your arc is that then you went into retail, right? And then, and taking all that kind of more hospitality and residential experience and then into retail, and now you're back into hospitality.

What was like, what was that detour into retail like for you and what did you, what was something that like super surprised you about that, that you're bringing on into your, into your career path and journey forward?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I think the biggest change for me in moving from AvroKo to One Kings Lane is I went from. know, many years of experience working in design studios where almost everybody on the payroll was a creative, right? You'd have a couple of people who were, who were sort of managing hr, payroll, accounting, but really, you know, the bulk of my career had been in design studios where most of the people employed by that company were creatives. And then I went to one Kings Lane [00:31:00] where it was the exact opposite. Almost everybody who worked there had a business background, a business degree, and then there was a very small percentage. It was a, it was a big company at the time, um, but a very small percentage of the people working there were creative.

So that was a real change, a real shift for me. And of course, I, I became very close with this sort of small group of creative people, and I think we understood each other really quite well and are, are still friends today. Um, but what the opportunity gave me is to really understand how businesses are run, how businesses

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Hmm,

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: money, how you have reach, how you, um, market things, how you speak about the work that you're doing. That was a, a huge learning for me and I think really changed the way I approach my work. It, I think it helps me. Understand my clients better. I think it allows me to give advice in my role here at MA in a different way. It

just

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Hmm,

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: of has expanded my perspective on sort of how to [00:32:00] exist in the professional world.

It's between these sort of two dichotomies

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: hmm. And, um, you know, looking at your path as well. I see you, you were at Mark Zeff as well.

And I wanna say from, I, I've been to so many design firms all over the country and the library that he has there, the, the palette, I don't know if he still has that library set up the way it was, but where it was just like, you walk into this.

Place of inspiration and creativity. I've never seen anything like it. It's really, really remarkable. Um, have you, did any, did that experience, like, has that, how has that influenced you going forward when you're starting to work on a project?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Well, I think a couple of things. First, I've been very lucky, but you know, I I working for Mark was my really technically my sort of second job after I moved in, moved to New York in the early two thousands. But the first job was, was a, was a little bit different. We were doing sort of historical renovation, so I would say. [00:33:00] I really credit mark with teaching me how to be a designer. You know, I, I cut my teeth working for him and he gave me a lot of responsibility. Probably a level of responsibility I wasn't really prepared for in my twenties. But, you know, he trusted me to sort of get the job done, but I didn't have anything else to compare it to.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Hmm.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I didn't realize, you know, vendors would come in, people would come in and say, oh, you have such a beautiful office space. You have an amazing library. But I didn't know anything different. I, I didn't sort of know that other places didn't invest in materials in that way. And I think it absolutely influenced me as a designer.

I think in a way that still happens here at MA and certainly with something that happened at ACO is that you step, you sort of, when you're exploring a project or when you're working on a project, you step away from the computer, you wanna be in the library, you wanna pull materials, you wanna put together sample trays.

That inform the project even at the most [00:34:00] early sort of contextual level. Is this about raw concrete or is it about polished marble? You

know,

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Hmm.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: what is the sort of playing field here? And I think it absolutely influenced the way that I work. And um, like I said, I've been really lucky to work in offices that really value that.

I know we do here at MA, we have a beautiful library and invest a lot of resources in it to make it feel like it has the right ingredients in there. But we also spend a lot of time in there and I think that's just really critical to getting off the computer and touching and feeling things. And I think, you know, something I think about a lot is how somebody gonna feel in this space, right? And if you can look at those materials and have them in front of you, I think that. Is sort of a bridge to how the space is gonna be executed. We, we spend a lot of time looking at things modeled on the computer, you know, looking at them in 3D and using technology. And I think there's a moment for that sort of analog experience of taking a step back and like, but what, what does this plaster look like? Mm-hmm.

[00:35:00] Is it

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Yeah.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Is it gonna be rough? How is that gonna affect you when you enter a space? I think it's really critical. I, I think it's, it's one of my favorite parts of the project, but yeah, I think it probably does stem from that experience

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: And then, and then kicking it over, uh, to Ian now, like, okay. I love that idea of everything is so digital, from renderings to drawings, to just project timelines, it, virtual meetings, everything. When you're starting a, a project, and through the life of the project, what are those analog moments for you?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Yeah, that's, we actually have seen a kind of resurgence of, of hand drawing, which I love and I trying to promote in the office. I think that it's also refreshing for our clients to see hand drawings, um, and there's a lot of nuance to a hand drawing that is very hard [00:36:00] to convey in a, in a digital rendering, or it, or it takes a lot more effort to get there in a digital, uh, drawing than it does.

Um, I. Uh, uh, analog. And so do, I, I think that early on we're doing more and more, uh, hand sketching is something we're, we're trying to promote, uh, like I said. And so I think that, you know, when we're just, you know, sitting down in, in a, in a, a group trying to, you know, think about massing and, you know, everyone is sketching.

Morris is continually sketching. Um, and then, but we're trying to, you know, bring that into, you know, keep that going so it's not just at the very, you know, beginning of the project and try and keep that sort of hand, uh, quality, um, going because, you know, separate to interiors, architecture doesn't have the same, um, Connection with, uh, materials [00:37:00] or it's not, it's not as sort of visceral. It's not like, because a lot of times, you know, you're building a, you know, you're doing a design that's, that maybe you will never touch, or no one will ever touch that or get up close to that material. So it's not so personal. And so, um, I think, you know, you know, keeping that connection with the hand drawing is, is, um, is our version of the, the analog materials library does

it.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Cool. And then bringing it all together, right? So you have this visceral, analog kind of interior component. You have the building this core and shell that people may not touch. Um. When you think about it through the lens, all bringing all those to together under one roof, and you think about it through the lens lens of placemaking, which like, you've made these really remarkable places.

Um, like how do you view those through the lens of playmaking? Uh, placemaking, not playmaking, [00:38:00] that's for football, but placemaking.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: How do we view our projects through the

lens of

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Yeah.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I, I think that's totally critical. I mean, I think that we're looking at placemaking from the macro to the micro, so we're looking at it from the city scale. You know, we're working, I, I don't know if we mentioned, but we, we have, you know, we have our, we have architecture and interiors as you know, the, the majority of our practice.

But we also have, uh, like sort of bookending that we have, uh, planning and then, uh, art services. So it's, you know, it's really a wide range of, um, design disciplines that we're, that we're working in and scales. And so where placemaking is like, I. You know, our, our main focus in all of those avenues or all of those disciplines.

So, uh, yeah, no, we're, we're constantly, um, thinking about sort of how our buildings, [00:39:00] you know, are inspired by and sort of can, can fit in, but can also contribute and maybe can push, uh, the neighborhood, um, or, or can have a conversation with the neighborhood in a way that sort of helps the whole neighborhood.

So it's not like it's standing out so much that it's, you know, just sort of like this icon that's not, it doesn't have anything to do with its neighbors. It's, it's more like we really want our building to sort of be contextual, like stand out by fitting in. Right. It's sort of like, it's contextual, but it also sort of pushes, uh, the neighborhood a little bit in a gentle way.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: okay, so now I want to keep pushing forward to the placemaking as it pertains to hospitality. And now Becca, you've been there for, I think just over four years. So you moved over there, just kind of, what is that? After the pandemic? Right.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Just after,

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: you're working on some pretty awesome projects as you look [00:40:00] at this platform at MA that you have with architects, interiors, and everything else that Ian just mentioned.

What's exciting you most as you look to the future?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I think something we've been talking about a lot in the office is thinking about branded residences. We've had a couple of successful projects in that sort of typology, and I think one thing that's really interesting is that a lot of folks look at branded residences. Like a hotel because it is often a brand that is associated with a hotel.

But what we're sort of discovering is that this project typology often now it depends, you know, there are nuances to every sort of project that comes through the door, but often branded residences are more closely matched with a multifamily project. And that you're layer then layering on sort of this brand experience.

But the sort of technical knowledge that you need [00:41:00] really is rooted in this sort of multifamily technical knowledge and experience, which is something that, you know, is a big part of our expertise. We've done a lot of those types of projects. You do also need to understand hospitality work and how to sort of bring the brand in, have a hospitality experience.

But that's sort of a layer on top of this function that I, and I think, you know, we're very uniquely positioned to sort of. and work with clients who wanna work on branded residences because we have these sort of deep roots and levels of experience in both sort of multifamily and, and in hospitality projects where there's a brand involved in sort of a, a big name brand that

wants to

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Yeah.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: across as well.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: I'd also say just for a brand that, okay, two things. One, I don't know why branded residences hasn't taken off more. Because to me, when you think about these big, multinational, luxury, E, it doesn't even have to be [00:42:00] luxury, just brands. The brand is really what drives the value. And when you think from a hospitality perspective, like it's a complete 100% immersion, I mean, you're listening and smelling and breathing and hearing all of your senses are just like.

Confined within whatever this brand is trying to convey. The other thing is, as far as the types of projects and the, the striking projects that you, you guys have worked on from an architectural perspective as well, many of those brands would need your kind of, I don't know if revolutionary is the right word, but like, like striking in very different, um, architectural perspectives to help convey and break through whatever their brand is into the built environment.

So one, I don't know why these don't take off more, it's starting,

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: is

starting.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: I don't know why it didn't happen 20 years ago. And number two is, I think you guys are really well situated for that. And like what kind of conversation, I guess those two points are, what kind of conversations are you [00:43:00] happening having out there with the brands of the world who are exploring these residences?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Yeah, I think you're right. I think, um, you know, there's a, there's an attraction, uh, to our design ethos, um, among the, the brands that we're working with where they, they liked our approach to like our sort of research based approach where, you know, they're, they're coming into a market and they want to be contextual and good neighbors and, but at the same time be distinctive and be true to their brand. Um, you know, they, they don't want to stand out like a sore of thumb or, you know, be. Uh, yeah. Sort of be an enclave separate from the city. They, they want to open their doors to the city and, and engage, you know, and, and, um, and sort of bolster the whole, the whole area. And so I think that approach aesthetically, [00:44:00] uh, has been attractive to, to those brands.

And so we've, seen that and heard that from, from multiple, uh, brands. And, um, and that ca that also carries through, uh, to the interiors. Mm-hmm. And so I, I think, yeah, I mean, we're, we're excited for that. And like Becca said, we're, um, you know, we, we've have a lot of experience in the, in the large scale multifamily, uh, space. And I think that's very, um, comforting for those clients. And, and, but infusing that I. you know, sort of like magic that, that you want in a hospitality space is not something that a lot of firms can do. I mean, agreed. It's really like one or the other. And I think that we're trying very hard to, uh, to do both.

And so I think we're, you know, we're, Becca and I specifically are very focused on that. Uh, and so we're very, um, we're very excited when we get an [00:45:00] opportunity to, to kind of show that and, and, you know, to kind of prove that we can do that. Uh, 'cause it's, it's, you know, it's not common that that can come from one, uh, firm. And I think you're right Dan, I think there's opportunity for this type of work, not just at the sort of highest level with sort of luxury brands. I think, I think people want experiences that sort of match their price point. Right. And it's not necessarily, you know, everybody can't afford a Lamborghini, but you can get a really nice Volvo, right?

You can drive a great Subaru. I think it's, it's, it's right. And be proud of it. It's applicable. Absolutely. Yeah. And it can meet your needs. So I think seeing this expand to other sort of price points or brands that aren't just sort of at the luxury level is a real opportunity for, for, for the industry.

And even the luxury brands are conversely, you know, focused on lifestyle. Mm-hmm. Right? Where it's not [00:46:00] only about, you know, what is, you know, how much can you be pampered? It's how much can you engage? the, in the, you know, in the city where you're in or, or sort of have these aspirational, um, lifestyle, you know, goals where the, the hotel can, can sort of help you, help you get there.

And, and they're not all about spending money, you know, it's sort of like about health and, uh, cultural awareness and, and, and so those things are, you know, things that, that we as designers can really help them, uh, sort of infuse into the, into the design from the outset. And I think that goes right back to what we were talking about at the start when you asked us what hospitality means.

It's about caring for people, you know, sort of fostering community and, and showing people a good time. You know, that fact that that's part of, sort of who we are and what we do, it, it really changes the game when it comes to those types of projects.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Well, let's just go back to the, the [00:47:00] Forth for a second. Right. And, okay. Architecturally really impactful building. Right? Um, and then I think that Ian, I, I, I think it was you Ian, who said earlier that the clients that you like, that you love working with are the ones that really appreciate design and are willing to invest in it, right.

For that type of project. Um, how has that, does the, does the Forth exhibit any, like, outcomes that, okay. Investing in that design actually help this become a, a financially, uh, leading hotel in the area? Um, is there like an ROI to for a client to invest in design that like that and construction?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I mean, you mean like numbers wise? I,

I don't

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Yeah.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: can give you the numbers, but Yeah. I mean, we repeatedly, over and over again are, yeah, yeah. Are achieving, uh, or exceeding, I should say. Our clients' performance. So, [00:48:00] you know, the, what the underwriting of the project is usually somewhat conservative.

And, uh, we've been, we've been fortunate to be involved in a lot of products, projects that are, um, sort of breaking the norm. And so there's, you know, there's a, it's a, it's a risk and it's an experiment, um, you know, by the client. So they, they think like, okay, I think we can, you know, perform at this level in this new market or bringing this new typology or this new sort of design idea or, um, product to this market.

Uh, and we've repeatedly, um, been able to sort of outperform, uh, the sort of, more of more standard product that are, that are the comparables in that market. And that's a hundred percent, attri attributed to the design. You know, there's, there's not, you know, maybe there's, the building is built for a little bit more money, but it's not. It's not so much more to build than it is performing above the, the competitors. It's [00:49:00] just thinking about what the spaces look like. Yeah. In a way. And I think, you know, that is kind of about layering on when it comes to our multifamily work, it is layering on this thinking about hospitality and sort of how do you welcome someone home a building that has 150 units?

How do you create moments of community for them? And people are willing to pay for that. People are very design savvy. They, they care about design. We, you know, this industry would not have had the growth that we've seen in the last 20 years if people weren't getting smarter and more demanding about what things look like. And I

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Hmm.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: you know, our ability to sort of respond to that and execute a good design, sort of no matter the price point shows over and over again in this sort of increase in a DR or. You know, sort of blowing out the expectations of the proforma and we're really proud of our track record from that sort of business perspective.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Yeah, it is reassuring. 'cause [00:50:00] oftentimes I hear, you know, and a developer will overspend on. Their hotel and then it just doesn't perform. But I've just heard through the grapevine that, um, those properties, especially, I think the, it was the Forth, is like outperforming other hotels in that area. And I don't know, just by virtue of me being at a conference that wasn't even hospitality related and people were like, oh, let's go check that out.

It's pretty amazing. Again, that's only anecdotal, not scientific, but I love it when people invest in design. And I love it when markets change and people are continually innovating. Um,

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I

mean,

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: so I,

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: you know, we're, we're also, we're so used to working on very tight budgets that it forces you to. to be creative and to, to have, to bring that value through design, right? So it's really, it's really a good exercise for a

designer to say like, your budget is nothing, or your [00:51:00] budget is zero.

What can you do? And so, you know, a lot of the, the multi-family work like that. And I, you know, there, there may be some hospitality, uh, developers that are just, are so well funded or so, you know, that they can just, they don't care what they, what they spend on the hotel. But that's not how we would approach the project anyway.

And, and we never, we never get those clients. Uh, you know, 'cause we don't want, we don't want a project that doesn't perform well and is, you know, out of touch with. The, you know, the market or, or what people want, you know, it, it, we're, we're very, um, sensitive to those budgets.

And also it, we think it's, you know, it's not, they're not a detriment to the project at all.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: but I, I also like looking at the Wythe hotel in particular as well. You know, you have this. Adaptive reuse where it's a brick base and then a lot of glass and steel coming up out of it. And I can only imagine, like, I can only [00:52:00] imagine what the budget is going into that. And then as you start doing demo and re and building into it and building above it, like what kind of surprises may lurk in the case of adaptive reuse, how do you, how do you mitigate many of those surprises that could come?

'cause I can only imagine

huge contingency.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: be some, yeah, there's always gonna be some, I don't know that there's more in adaptive reuse than new build. I mean, there's so many surprises in sort of executing a project in this environment that we're in and have been sort of since 2020. I think, you know, adaptive reuse is sort of one and I think with those types of projects, it's a little bit more needing to have boots on the ground because you're, you're really sort of see uncovering something and needing to come up with a solution sort of on the spot.

But I think the same sort of challenges come to you with new build. sort of like, oh guys, hey, this is the cost of raw material and we [00:53:00] can't afford that anymore. So what's our sort of, what's our next step? Or, or, you know, Ian can give a better. Architecturally focused example of this, but it is sort of like, okay, we thought, we thought laying these bricks was gonna be the right path forward, but it turns out we need to do to do a different execution, and how can we do that?

So I think it is a little bit, uh, more challenging. It's a different process with adaptive reuse, but I think just in the environment that we're in it, it's really important that we, we have some level of flexibility and plasticity and sort of our approach to ex, you know, once you get to sort of the execution of the

project. Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: I I have one. I have another question. So, if I were to appear in front of Morris and ask him, like if he could define which project that he worked on, it doesn't have to be hospitality, but just like which project that he worked on in his career that helped launch his, his practice and really did it, what do you think he would say?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: [00:54:00] mean, the theory building was the first building that we did.

Um.

In meat packing Yeah. In meatpacking. And the client didn't realize that it was our first building. I think he thought that we had done projects before, uh, and didn't matter. Uh, we, it was a great project. So I think that one, and then the Wythe came very, I, I, I think the Wythe.

And then, uh, the Samsung building, 8 37 Washington both

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Hmm.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: uh, right, uh, right after those. So, um, the, the theory building is a co completely ground up building, 8 37 Washington and the Samsung building, which is right on the high line. Uh, and the Wythe are both partially adaptive reuse. Um, and so I think those three, uh, were very high profile, um, projects that were very [00:55:00] impactful for their respective neighborhoods and also had. A kind of cohesive design, um, language and sort of ethos and I, and so I think that that collection of buildings and, um, kind of little portfolio of projects was very, uh, was very impactful for the

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Yeah, I'll try and get a photo of the theory in here as well. But if I do, thank you for framing it that way. 'cause I was doing a very bad job of like fumbling around to try and talk about how these projects are, like neighborhood redefining or defining, and when I think back to all of those that you just mentioned, it's, they're really, they've changed the trajectory of a neighborhood, like meat packing.

I, I think, I don't, I don't remember when the theory building opened, but it was like probably early knots aughts, early aughts, like 2000 something.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: definitely. Yeah.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: And that [00:56:00] was like that whole area just transformed. Now I'm sure it was a confluence of all these things and he happened to be there when it was happening, but like if you really step back with perspective and look at it like, holy crap.

And same with the Wythe. I mean, it's amazing and it might be too early to tell, um. With the Forth, because I think that just opened less than a year ago maybe. But again, it's like those are pretty cool chess pieces to have on the, on the board.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Definitely, I think, each I mean, you could say, you know, and then like Good Time was a project. I think those three projects and, you know, um, Scholastic is in there too. It Scholastic was, Des was done. Um, you know, it was designed by Alto Rossi who was, uh, Morris's mentor and who died. And so Morris, um, completed that project.

And, but the, the three I mentioned were really done, you know, by Morris. Um, and then, you know, uh, I think as we've been growing as a firm and our footprint expanding. [00:57:00] Forth and like good time are, are projects where they're outside of New York. And, you know, it's sort of, um, I, I think, you know, good times in the, is in my Miami, um, historic district, the, the art deco district.

And so that is, is a of our take on the, on the design, uh, the, the, the, I guess the Art Deco Miami aesthetic. And then similarly in, in Atlanta. Forth has a different, uh, approach that, you know, we're kind of like we were saying before, really, really catering that to the specific place, uh,

where it is.

And I think that's something that people recognize in New York, uh, as being very relevant for those specific places. And then, you know, as we do that more and more outside of, in different locations, um, you know, that that sort of theme just continues. Uh, and, and is I hopefully appreciated by, by the people that see them.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: fantastic. Um, this has been awesome. I really appreciate all of your time. And if, if people [00:58:00] wanted to learn more about MA or connect with you guys, what's the best way for them to do that?

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: I think they can visit our website at ma.com and they'll find a lot of information there about our practice and our portfolio, but we're also very active on Instagram and LinkedIn. So you can find us there too. And if you prefer email, you can email us at info@ma.com.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Perfect.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: have the easiest emails ever. Yeah.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: I I was just remarking like that, that, uh, URL is amazing. I, I, I shudder to think how much, um, you guys paid for that. URLI,

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: in early. He had a, he is a man with a vision. He bought it from Massachusetts.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: uh, wow. ma.gov. That's probably the other one. But, uh, wow. This has been so fantastic and thanks. Um, I don't know, it's just like so good to think about how impactful these projects were at that time and continue to be in those places. So, um, I just appreciate your, your time and [00:59:00] experience so much. So thank you.

ian-mills---becca-roderick---ma_1_03-24-2025_143603: Thank you so much, Dan. Yeah, thanks Dan. You had a great, uh, you were drawing out gems from us. Yeah, absolutely. Was fun for us too.

dan-ryan_53_03-24-2025_143603: Um, and also I just want to thank our listeners. Um, if this changed your thinking on hospitality, designing for hospitality, uh, the life of architects or designers, please like, comment, subscribe, pass it along to anyone who you think might benefit from hearing this. Um, I appreciate all of you. We're almost at 200 episodes, so, you know, it's just exciting to keep having these incredible conversations.

So thank you to all of our listeners too.