Defining Hospitality

DH - Nicolas Graf
===

Speaker: [00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.

This podcast is sponsored by Berman Fall Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Today's guest is an experienced educator who is taught at schools all over the world.

He's an advisor and founding member of TAM'S Incubator, the Travel and Meeting Society Group. He's a chaired professor and associate dean at New York University's, Jonathan m Tisch Center of Hospitality. Ladies and gentlemen, Nicolas Graf. Welcome, Nicolas.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Hey, thank you. Thank you for inviting me.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Well, I [00:01:00] would like to share with our listeners that I've seen you the LinkedIn sphere every year, sometime around May, June, promoting the NYU Lodging conference. Um, but we actually never met until we're both on the advisory board for, uh, the radical innovation, um, event that happens in October. And I was like, oh, I'm so glad to finally meet you virtually. And then I wanted to talk to you and share your story with everyone else about your experience. Being a professor of hospitality and also, um, this, or I guess being involved in the transition Of the NYU Lodging conference and shepherding its growth into, its, into what's next. And I'd love to get into, um, next.

And it's just so nice. And I think one of the greatest things about doing this podcast is I get to meet all these people who are to my world in hospitality. But what I've learned is [00:02:00] as we, I expand the view and get to meet all these people and get to know like yourself on a, on a more personal level, it makes this small, already small, industry that much more sm much smaller and so much more relational, which it always was too.

So it's like almost like pouring gasoline on all of my relationships within our industry and being able to share you with others. So I just wanna say thank you, uh, very much for, for being there and putting yourself out there.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Of course. No, it's a pleasure meeting you too. And um, I'm glad I'm here.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Yeah. Um, before we get into the conversation, obviously hospitality plays a very important role in your life. I guess firstly, what does hospitality mean to you? And then give us a little bit of your history about how you became a professor of hospitality.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: I think, you know, hospitality is really about, um, is really about two things. It's about, uh, [00:03:00] making people feel better and making people be better. Uh, when you think about hospitality and travel, it's about going to new places, meeting people, meeting new cultures, uh, that that's about, you know, me both feeling better and, and being better.

You know, the more you know about the world around you, the better you, the better person you are. I, I believe. And, uh, how, how did I get to where I am? It's, uh. It's a long story. It's a long journey. I'm gonna try to make it shorter, uh, today, but I, I'm a high school dropout, um, from Switzerland. Uh, I, early on in my life, I was not willing to take orders very easily, so I always wanted to do it my way.

So I dropped out of high school, decided to do what I liked, which was cooking. So I went, uh, and did a chef apprenticeship in Switzerland. Um, and then, uh, towards the end, the, uh, the, the chef who was the, the owner of the, the business, um, uh, had a divorce and he didn't want to give anything to his wife, [00:04:00] uh, and was an ugly divorce.

So he took the business down and, and went bankrupt. And so I kind of thought, you know, maybe I need to learn how to run a business too. So I went, I was able to go to a hotel school in Switzerland, uh, even though I. I was a high school dropout. There, there are ways and, and pathways that are built in the, uh, higher education system in Switzerland that allowed me to go to, uh, EHL, the Lauzen Hotel School.

And I graduated best in class. Uh, somehow, you know, I, I woke up my, my brain started to work better and, uh, and, um, and so I finished best students, uh, and the school offered me to do an MBA part-time for free. Uh, but I had to become a teaching assistant and, you know, I figured, uh, you know, a free MBA doesn't come along every, every day.

So I said, why not? And, and I did the MBA and uh, and that was fun and started to teach, which was also quite fun. [00:05:00] And, uh, and, uh, I met a faculty member who was visiting from, uh, from the US and he said, Hey, why don't you do a PhD? And I. Kind of said, you know, I'm not sure what a PhD is, but if it's with you, the guy was in inspiring.

He, he knew so much about the hotel industry. He knew, uh, he knew everybody in the business. And I said, okay, Michael Olson, uh, out of Virginia Tech in Blacksburg. And, and so I decided to go and, uh, ended up in Blacksburg. And a fun story is, I remember, I, I, I, the day I moved to the us, uh, my flight was diverted to, uh, Minneapolis, uh, because there was a, there was a blackout on the East coast and I was supposed to land in Washington, uh, DS airport.

And so I ended up in Minneapolis for the night and flew back to, uh, to, to uh, DC the, the following day and went to the car rental company, and I had rented the cheapest car right, for a week. And they [00:06:00] said, but you were supposed to come yesterday. And I said, look, all of the flights were diverted to somewhere else, so you should have known.

And they said, well, we have only one car left. And it was a yellow Mustang. And so I saw myself

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Dream.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: the American dream. And, and so I saw myself driving, uh, down i, I, I think it's I 95 and, uh, heading to Blacksburg, Virginia and going up and up and down the hills and, uh, and ended up there. And then, uh, the rest is history.

And then I went on to teach at the University of Houston. Uh, then, uh, decided to move back to Europe. Uh, taught at Essec Business School in Paris. Um, and, uh, which had a program, uh, in hospitality originally a joint venture with Cornell University, the hotel school. And, and then I moved back to Switzerland, which was a mistake, but, you know, we all make mistakes.

And, and then was hired by NYU and, and here I am. I've been here for about almost eight years.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Wow. Um. [00:07:00] So that's a very interesting path because most of the time, well, I don't actually, I don't even want to qualify, but most of the time as that business was imploding, where you were, where you were the, as an assistant chef or, or I don't know if you were assistant chef or just working in the kitchen. Um, at that point, without a high school diploma and the business is tanking, I would think most people would be thinking about how they're gonna make money next, right. To, to survive and, and like, what am I gonna do? And it's a very interesting pivot to go from there. And also reassuring and, and inspiring that you could go from that place to going into academia.

And then actually from the sounds of it, just staying in academia from that. And it was almo. I, I don't think you could have planned that.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: No, no, I, I think I've been, first of all, I've been lucky to be in Switzerland where the system was, uh, you know. [00:08:00] Designed to allow for different pathways. Um, and, and secondly, I I just, every time an opportunity opened, I just said yes, and I took the risk, you know, I took the chance. Uh, and I, and I think, you know, when I, when my students ask me for advice, I say, you know, in life, I believe you, you have to say yes more often than you say no.

Um, because I think the world is full of, of, of, of opportunities. Every, every place I've lived and, and, you know, my wife and I counted the other day, uh, we've moved over 20 times in our life. Uh, and uh, so it makes you focus on what matters to you because you can't move everything around. Um, and it makes you realize that there are so many nice places on earth and so many, you know, different communities that you can, you can thrive in, uh, whether it was in Houston, Texas, Blacksburg, Virginia.

Um, [00:09:00] you know, Paris, then I lived in Normandy, in France. Um, you know, I lived in the mountains in Switzerland, um, and now here in, in New York, um, there are great places. I mean, I loved living in the city in Manhattan. We've moved out to New Jersey now I have a little house in the Poconos. Every, every time you say yes, you discover something new.

And, and, and I think that's what I meant. You know, when I, we talked about hospitality and traveling generates, it's getting somewhere new and meeting new people, discovering new things. I think it just makes you a better person and makes you happier. Uh, and so that's what I did. I said yes. You know, when Mike Olson said, you want to do a PhD?

And I really had no idea what it was. Frankly speaking, I had never viewed myself as potentially becoming a professor. No. Nobody in my, my family has ever been a professor. My. My brother and I are the first, our first, you know, generation in, you know, uh, [00:10:00] college educated, uh, in the family. So you, you talk to my aunt today and she would still think I'm a chef, which is totally fine.

I still cook most of the days.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Um, one of the things that I find incredible about hospitality and also you working at NYU, which is one of the more expensive universities in the United States or the world, probably right? Hospitality, you can, obviously, you can work in the trenches and, and get that view. You can go the school route, whether NYU, Virginia Tech, uh, Penn State. Cornell, I mean, they're, I can't even name. There's scores of them hospitality schools, but it also offers, or it affords an opportunity for kids who don't want to take that debt load on to kind of go work in the entry level positions in the hotel space or even f and b space. But I find in the hotel space, you still hear so many of [00:11:00] those stories of who worked as a, a bell person or a front desk person or a housekeeper, and then they go up into middle management.

And I find, and you can probably speak to it more eloquently than I can, but just as a, as a fan of hospitality observing this, I find that this, the career curve is incredibly steep within our industry. If you get in there and, and to not be saddled with college debt also seems like, uh, a pretty awesome option for young people out there.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Absolutely. And, uh, you know, we, we've been, uh, we've been trying at NYU to do two things. Uh, we have our traditional bachelor degree, four year, you know, it's a four year program. It's expensive, it's really expensive, as you said. Now, the university, uh, president two years ago announced that every financial need would be met, uh, for every undergraduate student.

So if, if you, if your family earns less than than a hundred thousand dollars, then [00:12:00] nutrition will be covered.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: uh, I just wanna stop you there 'cause I wanna talk about that. But I also think maybe, I don't know when it was five or eight years ago, um, I don't remember his name. The guy who founded Home Depot. Langone. Langone. Oh yeah. 'cause the NYU Langone Medical, he said all medical students are gonna get paid or have their tuition taken care of regardless of need.

I believe. So I didn't realize that that is also happening for undergrads as well. And now Harvard, which is basically like a hedge fund that. us a couple classes. Um, they're actually, if you're mean means need or means based, if you're less, if your family makes less than $200,000, um, tuition is taken care of.

So this is actually a really cool trend and I didn't realize that NYU was doing that as well. So I'm sorry to cut you off, but I just wanted to contextualize it for

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: No, no. I, I think, you know, everybody knows about the, uh, you know, the. The debt problem, student debt, uh, issue in this country. And, uh, and, and you know, the Biden administration tried to, to find [00:13:00] a sort of solution. Now, now it's not a great solution. You can't just, you know, let people with debt and cancel the debt.

You just can't do that. In a way, it's not sustainable. I mean, it's a one-off, but, but cannot be sustainable. So university have, universities have to find other alternatives. And I, and I think there are two. One is, you know, fundraising and trying to, uh, to build an endowment that supports, uh, uh, need based.

Um, and the second one is developing new pathways, which is, which is something we just announced, uh, about months and a half, two months ago. We, we, we, we, we are launching a new associate degree that is, um, allowing for, uh us awarding credit for work, uh, based experiences. Uh, we are partnering with, uh, 2, 2, 2 groups.

We are partnering with the HNLA Foundation. Uh, they have an apprenticeship program. They have about 2,200 apprentice at the moment, uh, in their, they working professionals. And [00:14:00] the apprenticeship model is, is a competency based model. So in other words, uh, the, the, the Apprentice works and, and once they can demonstrate that they have, you know, acquired some competencies, then they move on to new competencies.

And so we've mapped their curriculum without curriculum and we'd be able to award. Uh, uh, a minimum of 18 credits for their apprenticeship. And, and these credits are free of charge because we award them. So the, the, the, the person works, they get paid for the work they do, they acquire the competency. We recognize them as, as part of our courses, learning outcomes, and we award credit for free.

Um, so that's one thing for ex current existing, you know, professionals. Uh, but we're also trying to partner now with the National Academy Foundation, which has a hospitality travel and tourism academy, uh, with 36,000 kids, uh, high school kids. And what we're trying to do is to offer them a, a, cheaper pathway to acquire or to, to, to [00:15:00] get, uh, uh, uh, an associate degree.

Associate degrees are 60 credits. And to them we will be, uh, um, able and willing to offer them up to 30 credits for work-based experience. Uh, so that's half of the tuition is taken care of, and the, the remaining 30 credits are highly discounted too. Uh, so I think we're really trying hard to provide different pathways.

Now, the other thing that I find extremely interesting and, and that that associate degree is supported by the j Willard and, and Ali, uh, s Marriott Family Foundation, um, they support us financially. Uh, but what I found extremely interesting, I was in, uh, the University of Utah about a week and a half ago where the foundation announced a major gift to the university where they, they're gonna create, uh, the, the Bill Marriott Institute of Hospitality.

But instead of having degree granting programs in hospitality, they're gonna teach [00:16:00] hospitality to every school at the University of Utah, every student

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: that's, that's what I was talking to you about before we, before I hit record, letting you know who the audience is and all this, it's, and this is what I say to almost everyone, is people designing, owning, operating, um. And brands of hotels and resorts globally. But also it's, there's been this weird of cool growth of audience That's uh, entrepreneurs because I think, uh, and this is my theory, that hospitality touches everything and makes everything better.

And if you think about it in business, just how you meet others and meet others where they are and hear and kind of set vision and strategy and growth. I didn't That's amazing.

I had, I had no idea about that. So tell us more about that.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: I, I think it's the future of hospitality education. I mean, I think, you know, whether you, you are going to a business school or an engineering school or a law school, uh, I would, you know. The more I talk to, to hotel groups, they say to [00:17:00] me, they say, well, you know, we're interested in your hospitality students, but we also need engineers.

We also need, you know, architects, designers, we need lawyers, we need accountants. Uh, some places they even need medical doctors,

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: They probably need it more than most of the other ones.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: That's right. And, and so they want these people to know that, number one, that they are career path for them in the hotel industry. And number two, they want them to have a mindset that's hospitality, mindset placing, placing customers and associate first because they are the ones delivering the service.

And, um, and I think it's really interesting the way that, uh, and, and, and the Marriott Foundation has been doing that already with the, the gift they made to Howard University, uh, where they, they created the, the Marriott Sorenson Center for Hospitality Leadership. Again, they don't have the, the Marriot, the, the, the scholars at Howard.

They don't major in hospitality. They, they, they major in different things, [00:18:00] uh, but they have the Marriott scholars. So that's they having interactions with, uh, executives in the business and they can see that they have different careers, uh, in such a rich industry.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: I have to share, like, one of the cool things about doing this podcast is, you know, I get to talk to a lot of people and hear their story. And one of the, one of the coolest outcomes of doing this, and un unplanned and just surprise is I get invited to different things now than I normally do, is just like providing furniture for hotels. Um, or I get to speak at events like at Radical Innovation. I'm, I'm MCing that event. It's such a incredible event that fosters, um, innovation. But I got invited to that ribbon cutting at the Marriott Sorenson, um, school at, um, at Howard, and I was just blown away. Those kids are freaking amazing. Um, all, everyone in that room was so great and, uh, and I did appreciate, although I think as a layman and not really understanding, I feel like even though all those, uh, students at [00:19:00] Howard are doing different, are studying different disciplines, but then there's like a, there's a thread of hospitality that. I think ultimately all of them want to get into hospitality. If what I'm hearing you say about University of Utah, which is diff and that's exciting and awesome because they're all bringing different sensibilities and um, perspectives, at University of Utah, what sounds cool is like it's not necessarily to bend people back to hospitality, it's to take the best practices of hospitality and then go on into their lot and march forward into their careers.

Is

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Yep, that's right. That's correct. That's correct.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: super. And then what's also interesting in talking to a lot of these, many of my past guests who work at large or interior designers, let's say, that work at really large global, um, architectural firms, if they're kicking off a new commercial project or an industrial project or a. I don't know, some other commercial that's not necessarily hospitality or aviation. They actually at the kickoff, the of the meeting when they have wanna get all [00:20:00] their ideas, they'll bring the hospitality person in so that it's almost like the hospitality lens or filter because ultimately that's about that gathering and bringing together of people.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Yeah, and, and you know, major, major office buildings today are running, you know, hospitality operations. Um. Um, it's, uh, you know, we, we, we have a relationship with Pyramid, um, hospitality group, and, and they're running a number of hospitality functions, uh, you know, for Fortune 500 companies, uh, for their office space, you know, their meetings.

Um, and, and you know, as, as that, you know, there is still that movement towards, you know, back in the office a little more, uh, the hospitality component is becoming increasingly, uh, important, uh, in terms of, of, you know, ensuring that employees are connected, ensuring that employees develop a sense of belonging with within the organization, and ultimately be more productive and [00:21:00] efficient, uh, as they meet and gather and, you know, do the, do the work.

Uh, so I believe hospitality is everywhere. I mean, you know, look, we, uh, you talked about NYU Langhorn, uh, at the moment, Langhorn has hired. The rout company, their, their consulting, uh, unit, uh, to help them improve their hospitality. Um, the, the, the whole experience within the hospital system and hospitals, as you know, you know, today they're, they're competing for reviews.

They're not competing for referrals anymore. You know, the, the referral system is gone. People check hospital reputations online, very much like they, they started to do 25 years ago for the hospitality industry. And, and so that transition to competition on service as opposed to competition on, you know, I'm the best surgeon.

Uh, yeah, that's fine. You know, but I expect the surgery to be successful a hundred percent of the time. So, so it's not that, that you're expecting as a patient, you're expecting to be treated well, to feel [00:22:00] well in the hospital and to get back home as quickly as possible. And so the, the hospitality component of hospitals of, you know.

Dentists, anything that has to do with caring for a patient or or a customer that's becoming increasingly important everywhere across the board.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: It also goes into a lot of these business books. An entrepreneur, I call them my business porn Behind me. I've read them all, but, uh, so much of them, and actually Danny Meyer in, I think, setting the table, which is like. It's such a seminal book for what? For what we all do. But so many of them say culture is the most important thing.

Building for culture, establishing values, coaching, mentoring, and, and ultimately hire for culture. Whatever the culture of that company or entity is. And it, it's different everywhere because it's all defined from what specifically they do hire for culture. And if the skills are almost there, you can always teach the skills, but hiring for culture is [00:23:00] the most important thing. As you look on your journey and actually even as a professor and like having a better understanding of the long-term trajectory of hospitality, do you think that this breakthrough at like for example, that what's going on at University of Utah is all about taking that ho, I don't know. I feel like there's been some kind of a. Of a seismic shift that find recently this idea of culture or corporate culture or, um, somehow is best distilled and learned from the lens of hospitality. Like has there been something or a bunch of things that have happened recently, um, that you might be able to put your finger on as far as a pathway for hospitality to teach everyone else.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: I think we, we, you know, it's seminal article was written back in the, in the, I think it was the mid or the late nineties, which was called the, it was called Welcome to the Experience [00:24:00] Economy, and Pine and Gilmore, uh, wrote that, that, you know, article and, and it was really about talking about what people were consuming today.

And, and they were pioneers because they saw that coming before we knew it was really happening. And now, now we, we are really into it. We, we are, no, nobody's just buying a commodity, right. Uh, you know, we, we bought

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: it's, it's Pine and who, I've never heard of that article and I probably should read that, so,

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Pine and Gilmore,

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: okay. I'm gonna track that down. Okay, great. Keep going. I'm sorry to interrupt.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: know. Totally. But I, I, I think when, when people go to, to a, a restaurant or even a store, I mean, when you look at. What people, uh, I mean you have the, alright, I need to buy socks. Okay, that's fine. Buying socks is something you, you, you may not necessarily want the, the experience there, but even then, if you prefer to go to a Macy's as opposed to X, Y, and Z, it might be [00:25:00] because of the way the whole store is designed, uh, you know, things you can see the, the, you know, and, and I was in Hong Kong back in, um, 2019.

I was in Hong Kong and, uh, I had the pleasure of meeting the, uh, Adrian and Sonia Chen, uh, uh, from the Chen family in Hong Kong and they own, uh, Rosewood Hotels, uh, there. And they, and I was talking to them and they, they, they had just opened the, um, and the by the river, the, the harbor, uh, can't remember the name of that.

It's a mixed use development, has a huge retail space. Uh, and Adrian was, was telling me about his. He created an art, uh, um, collection and he wants, he wanted to infuse art into the retail experience, and he wanted that retail experience. So he had performance art, um, uh, you know, paintings, you know, sculpture, et cetera, et cetera, in, in the shopping mall.

And he wanted to [00:26:00] create that for two reasons. One was like part of their value system and, and all that he wanted to teach the kids about arts and culture. So that was one thing. And where do kids go on weekends? You know, they go in the shopping mall. And, and the second one was really to create that. All rounded experience so that people would come to the shopping mall and not only enjoy buying something, but just enjoy being there.

And, and so that, that was incredible. And, and the second thing I visited then with, with Sonya Chang, was the Rosewood at the time, was we were like really new. Uh, and the way it's designed and the way people, so you're talking about culture, but the, their employees there, they go every day. They clocking in the morning and they can choose from about 10 to 15 different designer clothes as a uniform.

So they don't have the same uniform every day. They can dress the way they feel that day. So it's, it's, you know, they cannot wear anything, but they have like 15 choices of designer [00:27:00] brands that they can choose from every day. And the second thing that I thought that was, um, so that's, that's about creating that culture.

You know, I'm not a servant, just like, you know, I'm. I'm someone that is stylish and I can afford to be stylish because I don't have to buy it, but I wear this, you know, it makes me think back to the Ritz, you know, with gentlemen, uh, ladies and gentlemen, serving ladies and gentlemen, and, and, and that's what they, they're really trying to do.

The other piece was from a design standpoint. So I was going through the floors of that building and I noticed the size of the corridors between the doors, and I asked her, I said, wow, the, I've never seen corridors that huge. I mean, think about it. So you have one door, one bedroom, a door bedroom, and, and in between it's like 25 feet.

Uh, and in the middle you have like a collection of books. It's like a library on every floor. And you have some, some, some people that are, some of the, some of the employees that are coming with little, you know, [00:28:00] drinks and, and, and snacks and, and they just go through the, the floors. And so they wanted to create on each floor and experience so people don't have to stay in their rooms.

They can just go on the floor. They don't have to go in the lobby. They can stay on the floor and just read a book and, and experience the, the luxury of, of, of Rosewood. I thought, you know, how do they try to create that experience? So we are reading that experience economy, uh, the way people travel today.

People want a genuine travel, uh, uh, experience. When you think about hotel brands in the eighties, remember a Hilton room had to be the same around the world, so that travelers had that sense of safety. That was really about trying to, to, to ensure safety. Now nobody wants the same room. When, when you travel to to Brazil, you want to have a local experience.

When you travel to Italy, you want to have a, a local travel experience, and you want the design of the room to represent that. Uh, so we are really now in, in the experience economy [00:29:00] everywhere, everywhere we are. Think about an Apple store. The Apple store is all about the experience, right? You buy online, but it's all about the experience.

And, and that's everywhere now. I, I believe now, now you think about banking at what, what is it? That bank that has a coffee shop inside, uh, uh, capital Bank. Capital One, I think.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: maybe. Yeah.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Yeah, capital One. They, they, they, so you don't go banking, you go for a coffee and you happen to bank.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Oh,

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: It's very different.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: I just, the other day, actually, it's funny you brought up at the Apple store, I, I just recently recorded with a pair of a gentlemen and we were talk, I, I was trying to get at like what. future? Like what, is there any kind of radical change that they're seeing in the f and b space? 'cause they're more f and b focused. And then I brought up this idea of Apple. How I remember in the, I don't know, 2000 8, 7, 6, somewhere in there I read an article in Wall Street Journal Investors Business Daily. And [00:30:00] it was talking about, um, just retail leaders. So it had, like, Tiffany was, Tiffany's was at the top and then, I dunno, they had like six or eight others.

And Tiffany's metric was, uh, sales per square foot, I think And it, let's say it was $700, I don't know if that's a month, a day, a year, whatever. Um, and then everyone else under like of the top 10 was from 700 to like $200 a square foot. And then Apple came outta nowhere not knowing anything about retail Zero. they were like 1500 or $2,000 a square foot. are you seeing anything out there? That's just a revolutionary new take on it, or are they, or, or is it just like more of a slow, um, evolution to, and that fully embraces this experience economy?

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: it's a slow evolution. Uh, I think some people I've, I've seen some people try more radical stuff. I mean, I remember I was in, uh, I was in Tel Aviv. Oh my God, that's a long time ago. That's probably 15 years ago. [00:31:00] And there was a restaurant who tried to just sell the experience without the food, so you have to come in the restaurant.

They, they just wanted to be a social gathering. So they were only, they were only serving drinks, but you would have to buy, uh. An imaginary steak. So they would bring you the plates, but the plate would be empty and they would charge you for a steak. Uh, and, and they thought it was so pushy, they said, but you're here, you're not here for the food really.

You're really here for the experience, for seeing and being seen. And I was like, guys, you're crazy. So they went bankrupt within three, within three months. Um, the other one that I thought was, was, was interesting. They, it also didn't work, but, so the, the, the menu pricing was, uh, was kind of, uh, moving like the stock market.

Uh, so it was a, a, a supply and demand pricing. And people would say, okay, alright, I'm buying this now. And the price would go up so you could sell your stake before it was served [00:32:00] and make money out of it because someone else bid a higher price than you did. So you could, you could still, you, you, you see what I mean?

So you would say, alright, I'm spending $15 on the Caesar salad right now. Now, you know, it's gonna take 10 minutes to be served. So during the 10 minutes, the, the value of that Caesar salad would, would increase or decrease, and you can sell it to make a profit and someone else would, would eat the casar salad that you ordered.

And so that didn't work either. I think they lasted maybe six months. So anything that's too radical, I think, um, I think they, they, you know, they have their head in the right place. But, but, but I think people, it's, it's a gradual evolution. Uh, but we're getting there. We're getting there. You know, the, we, we had, um, the CEO of Norwegian cruise line, before the pandemic, he came to talk to our students.

And, and one of the thing he said was, you know, he, we asked him what's the best kind of, what's the best size for a ship? And he said, the bigger the [00:33:00] better. We asked him why, he said, well, the bigger the ship, the more entertainment I can put on board. And people come, they come for the entertainment and they come for the experience.

They, they don't come for, for, you know, just lying out on the deck and watching the sea. I mean, very few people do that. When you look at how ships are, are, are, are built cruise line, I mean, you don't have enough space outside. I mean, you may have enough space outside for 30% of the passengers. Most people stay inside and enjoy the cruise.

I mean, think about it. Why go on a cruise? Well, because it has, everything has a casino, has, has a, you know, a theater has, you know, entertainment for the kids and so forth and so forth.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: and I think that the cruise ship is a great example of, there's an experience for everyone. I've been on a cruise once and it was cool, But, it's not, not my cup of tea, but some people are just diehard cruisers. I would rather be on sailboat with my family, cruising from [00:34:00] point A to point B, and then cooking our own food. And then, uh, my kids can put on a show that hopefully. It doesn't annoy me, but you know, it's a, it's a, it's a small confined, um, ship.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: it's interesting what you're saying because everybody has different, everybody's seeking different experiences and so the, the challenge now for the businesses, and when you think about, you know, Marriott announced last week, the acquisition of Citizen M and citizen M is a very interesting concept.

Uh, and it's different from any of the brand that Marriott has, but that probably brings Marriott Num brands portfolio to what, 30 thir. 30.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: six or seven or eight or something. It's almost 40 I would

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Yeah. And, and so, and, and every year at the, at the hotel investment conference, you know, the CEOs, every year I think someone asks the question, how many brands is too many?

And every year they keep repeating. They say it's never too many, because we wanna be able to meet the customer where they [00:35:00] are. And people, same customer may want 10 different experiences during the same year, whether on business or on leisure. On leisure. Uh, they want a different experience.

And we wanna be able to, to, to meet them where they, where they wanna be, and keep them within our loyalty program. That's really what it's all about.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: And thank you for bringing up Citizen M because I do appreciate that product that citizenM brought to market it. I think that that was radically different than most everything I'd seen before in that it's. A attendant list check-in. Right. And then the room actually reminds me of a cruise ship, and I think That's why I didn't actually like it very much, but it is actually really cool and compact.

Like the bed is at the end, you walk in, the bed is there in the window. They develop this new bed so that it can lift up and it makes it easier for the housekeepers to make the bed so they don't have to climb over there. But they wanted everything to be in one line and almost modular built. And it was cool because they were, they built the wet area of the room [00:36:00] with one factory and then all the other ff and e with other factories and they were trying to find someone, I don't know if they did, um, 'cause it wasn't really my cup of tea, but that could make the entire thing as one encapsulated room that could then slot in. And then it's one purchase order. Um. Just one thing to manage one point of accountability and liability. Um, but I, it wasn't for me, but I really appreciated how they, they were actually really looking at things, um, much differently. And I totally appreciate that. As far as, again, that cut, that echoes with what everyone is saying or most of the guests, almost all the guests. it's about meeting others where they're at. Right. And, and making that space and time and, and just taking that pause what's important to that other person. It's putting others first. Um, I wanna go back to that idea. I love how you brought up these different pathways, right. Um, you said something that I, I [00:37:00] want to get to, but it was that you made a mistake going back to Switzerland.

So I wanna, I want to dig into that one. But what we go to Europe as a family, 'cause we have family out in Austria. And I remember over the years I started a business in high school. I've started a couple of businesses in my career, um, through. Like as a grownup. And I remember, you know, sitting at family dinners or whatever, and mo most of the, most of family members were like, wow, how do you do that?

Like, it's so interesting that you can just start it where in Austria, and I think Europe at large, you have to have like a certificate and you have to be studying in a certain way. And everyone is kind of, not everyone, most people are in this mindset that they have to be going down this path to be something.

But I found that your path seems very different in the sense that you didn't graduate high school, you started working in a kitchen. It's almost like kind of American in a way. And that you're like, okay, well yeah, I guess I'll go to school and I'll try this other thing. So your pathway was [00:38:00] very different from a typical European path. so I, that was my, that's my observation number one. So please me wrong or not. And then does that tie into why you think it was a mistake to go back to Switzerland, or what was the mistake all about.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: So I, no, I think you are right in, in a sense that The workforce development system, if you want, in Europe is, whether it's Switzerland and Austria, Germany, uh, France to a degree, uh, not too sure about Spain or Italy to a degree as well, is designed around occupations. And, and, you know, in, in, in Switzerland and Switzerland is, is always within the top five when a, any kind of ranking like, you know, competitiveness, ranking, uh, GDP per capita ranking.

So it's a, it's a country that's doing and has done well. but it, it, you know, only 20% of the population has a college degree in Switzerland. Uh, the, the rest, [00:39:00] the rest have an apprenticeship, uh, which is certified by the government. And, uh, the, so, so you go through that apprenticeship to learn a trade and whether it's.

It system analyst or something, or whether it's, uh, an engineer, you don't necessarily have to go to college. You can, you can do that via work-based, uh, moderates. Uh, but what it does, it tends to limit you to that occupation and that trade. You see, when, when, when you are in the US you tend to have an occupation, uh, uh, sorry, an education that's, that's more, generic.

I mean, when I think about our undergrad curriculum, half of the credit, our liberal arts general education courses, which allows students to learn something different than their trade. And, and so that probably allow people to be more nimble and flexible in going from one occupation to another But the, [00:40:00] the advantage of the, the European model is it's very good to integrate migrants. So when you have migrants coming, maybe the, you know, the parents, maybe they have, they've already learned a trade in their home country. But the kids typically, and we know that migrants tend to be, tend to have low income when they come in a, in a country.

That's true everywhere by the way. So, so when you have migrants that come into the country, the kids can immediately get into a trade and have a good job, a good training, and get a good life. And very often they can create their own business, like a plumbing business. Right. A p plumber, uh, in Switzerland, when if, if you own your plum, you know, your company as a plum, um, you're doing quite well actually, even if you're first generation, you know, like, just came in.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: say in the United States as a plumber or HVAC tech or some, you, you can do quite well. And I, and maybe actually as you're saying that, and again, I'm not an expert in any way, shape, or [00:41:00] form, but that whole apprenticeship route seems pretty amazing in Europe. But there's also, you, you kind of, I would think maybe many people feel like they get stuck on a track and it's hard to jump and try something else. Whereas in.

the United States, okay, Yeah, you can try all these other things, but I think, we could use more of an apprenticeship track or a more robust one. Um, I don't know. Again, I keep coming back to hospitality because anyone can kind of get into hospitality as a food server. A housekeeper, uh, back a a, a a line cook or whatever, and then you can quickly get onto a very steep career path.

But it's, I don't know if it's very, I don't know if there's like a lot of recruiting from high schools into there, but I feel like maybe there's some happy place between the two that we're still evolving towards.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: I've been talking about that with many, you know, companies, associations, and groups, and even the, I. You know, the city in [00:42:00] New York, I'm part of a, uh, a group, uh, trying to, uh, connect high schools to, to the hospitality world. And, uh, what, what, what we have is the hospitality industry has a brand problem.

Um, it's, it's a branding issue, uh, in terms of of, of, you know, career pathways. Everybody thinks that, you know, you're in hospitality, you're never gonna make a good salary. Well, that's not true. I mean, you can, you can relatively quickly become the general manager of a limited service hotel and, and do, do, okay.

Um, so I think we need to change the narrative. We need to change the narrative about the industry, and that's really what, what we've been trying to do. Uh, with NYU. We have also, you know, collaborations with, uh, Johnson and Wales. We, uh, we run an event, uh, earlier this, uh, uh, in March, uh, March 1st, uh, which was a celebration of black leadership in hospitality.

We had. Both business leaders, including Cheap Wade from Union [00:43:00] Square Hospitality Group, uh, to celebrity Chef Marcus Samuelson was there. And we brought kids from, uh, from the CIA, from Johnson and Wales, from Cornell, from NYU. We had high school kids who came to see that they, they have different pathway to be a leader even for, for black kids.

Um, and so we're gonna do that for, you know, black, brown, Latinos, white kids. You know, it, it doesn't matter. We need to show that they are great ways in this industry to actually have a fun career and actually do quite well financially. And, and pretty quickly, I had a bunch of former students, uh, that, you know, became general managers within, within five to eight years after graduation.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: I think what's also interesting is just seeing that really steep path, career path within ho a hotel. Um.

if what you're saying with that University of Utah model is happening, I, I assume that [00:44:00] is happening intentionally or just by happenstance in other universities around the wor, around the country and world. But even if you're on, if you start in a hotel entry level and then you get on this steep, steep career path, if all those other companies, like in, in 10 years, 20 years. Or people that went through that University of Utah school or other places, and they see this importance of hospitality. Those people who go from room attendant to room exec to a assistant general manager, I bet you those other companies out there in other verticals will be like, oh, hospitality on their, CV or resume. You know what? You wanna get out? You've been in hotels long enough, you wanna come in and work for us in x, y, Z company? You have the experience. Come on in and teach us. I feel like it's a great breeding ground, um, for other, I don't know, other careers as well.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: and, and I've seen people, I had the uh, uh, uh, gentleman called me. A [00:45:00] few weeks back, and he is, uh, he's actually running a, uh, a building, which has condos, uh, like one of these huge sky skyscraper overlooking, uh, central Park in New York.

And he is running the hospitality operation there. Uh, and he was a GM before. Um, so he can run, you know, buildings, you can run office space, you can run hospitals. Uh, you know, I, one of our former student was, uh, the chief hospitality officer. For the hospital, uh, for special surgery. Um, you know, you have all of these, uh, spaces.

I also remember 10 years ago, a former student give me a call and says, Hey, I, he was the, um, uh, the, the, the rooms, uh, division manager of the Ritz in Berlin. And he said, I received a call from Apple Store and they want to hire me to become the, the, the area manager for all the Apple stores. He said, what do I do?

I said, remember, say yes more often than you say No. You know?

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: [00:46:00] Yeah.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: And so he, he did that, and I think now he's back as a GM somewhere else for a hotel.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: And I bet he learned so much from that Apple experience of what he liked and didn't like, and now can bring it back to somewhere else.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Yeah. Yep.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: that's true. Like it, the future is so unknown. for me, I'm always a fan of saying yes because I love experience and each yes offers the potential for a radically experience.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Yeah. Well, though, yes. So you asked the question, uh, the mistake in Switzerland.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Yeah, I, I was gonna come back to that. Yeah. What was the mistake?

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: So we, I had a good job, um, at the business school in Paris. I had a sabbatical year. I worked for a year as a kind of a consultant to acas the, the celebrity chef. Uh, and after that I had the choice, either I could go back to the business school, and then I was approached by, um, a French private equity who had just acquired two hotel schools [00:47:00] in Switzerland.

And they offered me, uh, the, the job of the chief academic officer for Leros in Switzerland. And at the time. I thought, you know, my parents were getting older, you know, getting back closer to family was probably a good id. The pay was good. Um, it was a, a very nice location, you know, a big job title. And I said yes.

And I moved there and, and then after six months, I had, the first six months were great, but then after that, you know, it's a private equity. What did I think, you know, I should have known better my PhDs in finance. I know what a PE does. So what they did is they started to cut costs. And, you know, in, in a, in, in a school, it's easy.

The economic model is relatively easy. Cutting cost is what we have. Infrastructure, so they did sales and sale and lease back of the buildings, uh, which essentially puts the long-term future sustainability of the business, uh, uh, at [00:48:00] risk. Because, you know, sale and lease back transaction puts you at risk on the long term.

Second thing is you increase class size, more student per faculty. Right. Uh, you know, it's, it's simple math. Is it good for the student? Not necessarily. Um, and then you cut support staff, you know, why do you need, uh, an academic advisor? Well, to advise the student. Well, can an academic advisor advise twice more students, you know, I mean, that's simple.

So after six months of that craziness, I figured that the PE goals were not aligned with my goals in life. And so I quit. And, and luckily a friend of mine had given my name to the search firm for the job I have now, and I was hired three months later. So, so that was the mistake, you know, misalignment of goals and values, I think is the, the biggest mistake you can do, uh, in, in, you know, associating yourself with someone.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: and I [00:49:00] think is actually a good transition into speaking about the NYU Lodging conference because again, you found yourself back in New York and you're now, you're in this place where your values are aligned with what you're doing, and that's, it doesn't, when, when you, when you can check all those boxes and create that alignment. It doesn't feel like you're working, right. You're living your passion. Um, but you've been shepherding this NYU lodging conference for a few years that you've been at NYU and it was just sold. Right. And how has NYU, how has NYU looked at this NYU lodging conference as an incubator for ideas and a, and a, a collision or a crucible for collisions amongst leaders in our industry?

And even though it's sold it and it's transitioning into a new direction, does NYU continue to benefit from that and vice versa?

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: The, the, the reason I decided to sell that conference was really to [00:50:00] ensure its sustainability. Um, uh, over the years I realized that there were really two critical people, uh, in, in ensuring the success of the conference. And none of them was part of NYU, and, and the two of them were not getting any younger.

So I thought about succession planning, and I realized that I had none, uh, uh, uh, realistic succession plan. And we as a school were not designed to host events of that size by, by ourselves. So I realized that in order to ensure the sustainability of the event, I had to find a partner, and the partner became Questex.

Uh, Questex has a long track record of, of running, uh, successful. Conferences in different industries, but they also run, uh, the largest European conference, uh, hotel Investment Forum in Berlin, uh, which I attended couple of [00:51:00] times. And it's a great event. Uh, and, and so we, we, we found that this was also a way to ensure when I, when I say the sustainability of the conference, we also have to realize that the constraints generated significant, uh, uh, uh, profit that we were putting back into an endowment to provide scholarship to students.

And so I wanted to ensure that you know, kind of profit would be sustainable in the long term. So the sale of the conference is not a simple transaction. They are multiple payments over multiple years that ensure that we keep growing our endowment. Um, Questex run the show. Uh, they're better at us to do in, in doing so, we continue, I continue to have.

Significant inputs in the programming, in, in the branding, in the marketing. Um, we took, I took every week with the head of Res Tex, uh, just to ensure that we are aligned in terms of where the, the event goes. And we have a [00:52:00] licensing agreement, uh, that, that runs over 20 years. And so that's the, the real reason is it's such an important event for our industry.

That's really where a lot of businesses is done. That's where people come to listen to the, the top executive in, in, in the industry. Um, I think it's the only conference in the world where you have all of the CEOs of the top five, you know, brands that, that are there on stage. Um, and, and with that, we were able to also ensure the legacy of Jonathan Tisch and the legacy, the legacy of Dorothy Jennings, who were the two, the two people I said were so critical in, in, uh, ensuring the success of the event.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Wow. And so in a way, in in essence, it's not a, it's not a traditional sale where it's sold and you walk away. There's an, there's an earnout, but a continued. Um, feedback loop that you've created, uh, [00:53:00] between the university and this really important event.

that happens every single early June. I mean, it's always in my calendar and I, it's, I love it because I have so many, uh, and other industry leaders that are always in town, either before or after.

And obviously they're busy during that, but I get to see a lot of friends that come into town right around then. So I always try and not travel from New York City, uh, right around then as well.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Yeah, it's really a, a gathering. Uh, and I think in our discussion with our partner, it's, uh, you, you asked me where it's going. Uh, we we're trying to improve the, the networking opportunities. We are trying to also, uh, ensure that. We have relevant and new content that is presented. Uh, these are really the two, the two goals is improving, improving networking opportunities and ensuring that we continue to have very relevant, uh, and new content.

Uh, because now, you know, content, I mean, you, we all have [00:54:00] access to, you know, forecast about interest rates. We all have access to forecast about RevPAR, about inflation, about this kind of stuff. So we, we need to generate new novel content, uh, to ensure that whatever we, we put on stage is of value to the attendees and, and to the sponsors and, and, and increasing the networking opportunities is really because of what you just said.

So that's where you meet a lot of your, your, your friends, your clients, your, your, your partners. You know that that's what we want to offer to, to the attendees.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: and just so all the listeners know, the, the main center of gravity or the, the rotational axis of this event. Is the Marriott Marquee Times Square? Correct.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: That's right.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: And I, this is where most of the people I talk to are architects, designers, people involved in hospitality design. Um, but I've been a real, I've been very curious about, and also like kind of awestruck by this ho host [00:55:00] hotels and resorts partnership with Marriott in that Marriott transformational capital program. And they, they basically have taken, know, 10 to 20 really key spaces, whether it's rooms or public areas that could use a big capital renovation. Um, and it's really driven by, they're very metric based and it's very ROI generated, but that Marriott Marquee, the lobby area has always been kind of a grand space. But as putting your um, NYU lodging conference hat on, how do you think that that lobby area that they did that huge renovation on has impacted. U lodging from a before to after perspective.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: the lobby is on the eighth floor and it's always been, uh, a place where attendees and non attendees would be able to meet and discuss. So we had a lot of people who would actually come to, to the Marriott, Marques, uh, without paying, [00:56:00] uh, the, so, so it's always been a little bit of a problem for us because, you know, we, we couldn't really manage that.

So, so, but at the same time, it was great for, for people who couldn't afford, you know, to pay for the conference, like more junior people. And, and I think, so I think with Questex we're trying to solve for that and, and ensure that it's a little bit more organized on that eighth floor and that people can.

Book places where they can meet with the people they really want, have a little more space. Because at times it was really so crowded that, you know, uh, now the interesting thing that they've done is on the ninth floor where they've added significant space. They used to have just like a, uh, like a bridge, uh, over, uh, over the eighth floor lobby.

Now they've expanded significantly that space, which we, uh, we, we are using for, uh, networking, uh, as a networking space. Um, but it, you know, the, uh, the renovation of the hotel has been, uh, has been a long, I mean, it was [00:57:00] really during covid that they decided to, to push the button, uh, you know, and, and, and do the renovation.

Uh, and, and I think they've done, I, I think they've done a great job. I think even the, the elevator system now works, you know, they, they've changed it. And, and, and I. It's so important for them, that elevator system and, and, and now it's working I think really beautifully. Uh, uh, never have to wait as much as you used to in the past.

Uh, it kind of almost emotional that, that that hotel I, you know, we, uh, I was talking to to, to David Marriott and he was telling me about his father bringing him there during the construction of that, uh, building. And, and, um, and so many stories around it, you know, that the company Marriott at the time was the, the, the host and, and, and Marriott worked together, right?

I mean, it was before the split, uh, was in the seventies and, uh, times Square was just full of prostitution and drugs and, and, and that investment almost bankrupted the [00:58:00] company. But Bill Marriott had that vision for Times Square becoming a, a tourism hub, which, which it is today. Um, and, and he was telling David about all of the things and the reason why they put the.

You know, the, the, the lobby on the eighth floor is because of safety and security concerns. Uh, at the time, uh, he was also telling me about taxi drivers. Taxi drivers would not come unless they were given a free lunch. So they had to give free lunch to the taxi drivers to come pick up the guests.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Oh my goodness.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: that was how bad Times Square was at the time.

And, um, the other cool feature of that hotel, which I really love, is it's the only theater that actually has a Broadway address. Can you believe that all of the other theaters don't have a Broadway address? They're all on, you know, different streets.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Oh, wow. Although it is set a little bit, I mean, it's in the footprint you enter through Broadway, but technically it's like a

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: That's right. That's right.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: cool. What, what's playing [00:59:00] there now? Is that where Wicked is? I always forget there's something that's been there for a really, oh no, the Lion King was there forever, I think. I don't know, as we kind of wrap, I was wondering, you know, as a. As a student and professor of um, what is, is there a, a book or a framework or a human that had the mo the largest impact on you as a expert and, and, um, as a professor of hospitality?

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Well, I, I think you named that book from Danny Meyers. Um, you know, setting the Table. I think that's, that's certainly one of the most important one. Um, and then the other one, I mean, I have my, you know, my mentor who unfortunately, uh. Passed away a few years back. Michael Olson from Virginia Tech, he wrote a book on strategic management in hospitality industry.

And, [01:00:00] and he's, uh, his framework that he developed over the years is all about co alignment and the co alignment of, you know, things that industry do in relation to a changing world and a changing environment and, uh, and, and how you implement. And you talked about the culture and all of that. So his book is really talking about how companies are, are, you know, strive to maintain an alignment with a changing world.

And I think companies like, you know, Marriott International's been extremely, Hilton's, been extremely successful in, in the, the, you know, the evolution of the, over the past few years they've been trailblazers, uh, in many different ways. Uh, so these would be the two books I would, I would recommend.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Um, okay, good. I'm going to, well, I've read one of them, but I, check out Michael Olson. And then you went from Switzerland to Blacksburg,

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Uh, yes.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: You drove down, and then was that your first time in the [01:01:00] United States?

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: No, no. I did, um, I did, uh, two things. I, I was an exchange student, uh, in, um, San Francisco for a little while. And, um, and I was young. I was 17, I think. and, and then I went to do an internship and I did an internship in Newport Beach at a hotel. And that was, that was the nicest internship. And the guy who hired me was the director of Food and Beverage.

I said, why did you hire me? And he said, well, the only reason is because we have the same birthday. Well, I had, I had another, I had another moment there. The general manager was French. He had a, he had a sports car, and one day he comes to me and says, Hey Nick, uh, I need to go to, uh, LAX to negotiate the, we had a, we had a contract with Air France for their crew, and it was a big contract.

And he said, I need to, to [01:02:00] renegotiate the contract for next year with Air France. I'd like you to come with me. And I was like, yes. Finally, I'm recognized as a good negotiator. And so we drove, we drive, we get to LAX and he said, oh, you can stay in the car. I said,

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Huh?

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: So why did you ask me to come? He said, well, so that we can drive on the, uh, high occupancy lane.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Oh, get save time. Oh, carpool it. What? But you know what? That's why saying yes to things, right? You said yes to all this and it by putting yourself out there, you never know if someone's gonna have the same birthday as you or like the glasses you're wearing, or just want to get in the carpool lane.

to get there faster. No matter what. You got to spend two hour, or, I don't know, two or three hours in the car with that person, and probably you weren't silent. You probably learned so much just driving back and forth with them.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Yeah, no, that's right. And you know, when we got back he actually said, well, I'm gonna ask you to, you know, have a look at the numbers and tell me what you think. So he, you know, he, I [01:03:00] think the conversation was useful.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Yeah. Say yes to more. Okay. So now you've had this in, oh, before we get into my closing question, what did, did you ever go to a Virginia Tech football game? Because I hear that stadium, the electricity and is just like nothing to be missed. It like it rivals. It's among the best football experiences. I don't know if you like football at all, but it's one of the, I hear it's one of the best sporting experiences in the United States, if not the world.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: I've never been able to find a, a spot. I mean, it's crazy. You, you, you have like a five year waiting list for

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Oh, so

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: tickets?

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: get to go to a

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: No, no. I, I tailgate it, but I, so I could, I could hear the crowd and the, uh, and, but I always watch the games on tv.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Oh wow. Okay. Um, well, you've ha and again, I'm gonna steal that use of the word pathway or that metaphor pathway. Um, you've had, you've been on an incredible journey and [01:04:00] path your, for your experience, um, as you of take stock and look back, and now this NYU lodging conference is on a new path, education is innovating right now about all these different pathways for, for students and apprentices and, um, I don't know, there's, there just seems to be like this exponential explosion of entry points into the hospitality industry. As You look back and now as you look forward, what's exciting you most about what you see?

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: You know there, there's one thing that's always been exciting for me, When you can positively impact someone else. And that's probably why I am doing what I'm doing, is I see so many of my former students every type of students. I, I remember one from the University of Houston u, university of Houston back then, uh, you know, was really for first, uh, uh, college generation students.

And I had a [01:05:00] guy, I was teaching a financial management course, and I had a guy who was a veteran. He, uh, came, he was in the military for many years and he came to the school, you know, they, they were able to have discounted tuition and he was taking my class and I was teaching them about investing in, in stocks and things.

And so going through the mathematics of, of things, and I was trying to get him to do it on Excel. Uh, and he would never do it on Excel. He always asked me to do it on the calculator and he was a pain in the neck. Um. Fast forward 10 years later. That's right, 10 years later, he calls me in France and I was like, how did you get my cell phone number?

It's not out there. He said, well, I found it. And he said, well, I wanted to check with you. I think I, I need to go and do a master in economics. And I say, why? He said, well, I've been investing a little bit since I graduated and I've made a few millions. I said, what, what? And he said, and I [01:06:00] just wanna make sure I really understand what I'm doing, and I don't think I have the foundation in macro economics.

And I was like, okay, well if you've made a few millions in 10 years, you know, maybe you don't need to go back to school. But anyway, so having an impact on, on people, making them better, making them better financially, making them better as better persons. Um, I. You, you know, that's what excites me most. And, and I think going forward, I think we'll have even more opportunities to do that.

And I think, um, as we look at the world around us, it's, it's, uh, it's complicated. A lot of things are very complicated. Uh, it's a reordering of the world at the moment, and there's a lot of tension, a lot of fears. So anytime we can, we can positively impact someone, I think we should do it. And that's really what excites me is if, if I can make someone feel and be better in the future, it will continue to excite me.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Yeah, and that resonates with me [01:07:00] so deeply because I think That's.

most rewarding channel of feedback I get from doing this podcast. Like I just do this for two or three hours a week. Um. By putting it out there and talking to great people like yourself, so many people who are either students or interns or just starting their career path, and even some who are long, like 20 years in or 15 years in, they're like, oh, know I could do that. And it, it impacts them in such a positive and like, well, not necessarily pos, it's just kind of, it's like a redirecting impact. And it's like, hey, they'll call me or email me and say, oh, I love that person. Can you put me in touch? Because I, you know, I was considering changing to X, Y, Z. And to, for me to be able to have that kind of impact and shorten their journey, it just light, it lights me up so much.

And again, it's like, it's always being in these positions where can say yes to as many things as possible. And you know what? Oftentimes you get no said and no is [01:08:00] okay too, right?

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: That's.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: is just a piece of information. This has been really fantastic, Nic. Um, I thank you so much. If people wanted to learn more about you, NYU Tams or NYU Lodging conference, what's the best way for them to get in touch or learn more?

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Uh, they can, they can, uh, check me out on LinkedIn. It's Nicolas Graf. I think it's, it's easy. I'm easy to find as a profile and they can, they can email me too. And, uh, it's an easy email. It's ng67@nyu.edu.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: Perfect. well, I Thank you. a heartfelt Thank you. for here with me And, I look forward to working with you on, uh, radical innovation and getting to know you better. And hopefully I'll get to see you, um, in early June down in New York. So thank you for sharing your story with all of our listeners and watchers.

nic-graf_1_05-05-2025_093844: Thank you. And, uh, it was a pleasure, Dan. Thank you for inviting me.

dan-ryan_63_05-05-2025_093844: And, uh, you're most welcome, uh, [01:09:00] and a, a heartfelt thank you to all of our listeners and watchers. And I wouldn't be here talking to pe amazing people like Nicolas and hearing about his journey through our awesome industry, uh, without you and your positive feedback and encouragement. And, um, if you think that someone could benefit from listening to this, please send the link to them.

Don't forget to like, and subscribe and leave a comment and all that good stuff. I appreciate you all very, very much and we'll catch you next time.