Defining Hospitality

DH - Chris Lenz
===

Speaker: [00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.

This podcast is sponsored by Berman Fall Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Today's guest is a visionary who came out of retirement to craft a hotel that acts as a living museum with strong historical significance. He is dedicated to creating independent hospitality spaces and is currently in the soft opening stage of his second hotel in Panama. He spent three years sailing on a boat

he made himself, taking his family to 42 countries where he eventually decided to settle [00:01:00] down in Panama. He's the founder and CEO of Lania Hotels and Resorts. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Lenz. Welcome, Chris.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Thank you very much, Dan. Good to see you again.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: It's so good to see you. I think last time we saw each other was in Bruce's Swamp in Southern Indiana years ago.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: maybe pre first hotel. I, I was, I don't even know if I'd started construction yet at that point.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: No, I think you were thinking about it. I think you

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Hmm,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: a plan and then you're like, you were in Panama. You docked your boat there and you're, I. son was going, starting to go to school there. I think you

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: that's right.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: your whole life settled and you're like, all right, we're going.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Yeah. It was one of those 180 degree turns of life's plans that you never quite know how it's gonna end up.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: and where do we ever know if, where life is gonna end up anyway, right.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: That

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: I want our listeners and watchers to know that I think I first met you in 1998 or nine in Hong Kong,

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: [00:02:00] mm-hmm.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Via Mikey and Diana Dobin from Valley Forge Fame. Um, but you are an entrepreneur at heart, uh, in a, a hospitality aficionado at heart. And that you had, I only remember one restaurant slash bar called Igor's in Hong Kong, but you had 37 throughout Hong Kong and into China as well, or just Hong Kong.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: I hadn int Singapore for a while, but

primarily in the end it was 37 in Hong Kong.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Wow, that's so unbelievable. And, uh, other businesses to support those 37 restaurants.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Yeah, we had a, we had a large food, food factory. We'd make 200,000 pieces of food a day supplying a, a coffee shop chain. I'm not gonna say the brand necessarily, but we, we supplied 123 stores on a daily basis. All our juices, salads, sandwiches, croissants, et cetera. So. 200,000 pieces of food, food import business, [00:03:00] 37 restaurants, 22 different brands.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: you are an international man of mystery on a sailboat. So like maritime law ruled you for however long you were visiting those 42 countries, but you're originally from the land of the Maple Leaf Canada.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: correct, I left Thunder Bay, Canada, north of Bluth, Minnesota, a little over 41 years ago at 18. I left.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: That was to go to Switzerland.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: That's right. Yeah. I went to work for summer in Switzerland as a waiter and never came home.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Unbelievable. Um, one other really fun fact, I would like to let everyone know, um, so this bar Igor's in Hong Kong, I thought I was there on a Halloween, but basically Igor every night was Halloween. So I wasn't, I wasn't there on Halloween, but they had this great cover band where remember all these dudes playing rock and roll in like these karate kid, um, [00:04:00] skeleton suits,

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: That's right.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Like the bad guys in the, in the like Cobra Kai guys in the skeleton suits. Um. They were awesome. Like, don't, uh, they were absolutely incredible. They, they sounded exactly like every band they played. I remember having a really fun night there, waking up with a very bad hangover the next day. But fast forward many, many years, that singer that I saw eventually became the lead singer of Journey.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: That's correct. A Prada.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Wow. And are you still in touch with him?

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We, um, he worked nine years for me, Igor's. That first restaurant I opened that was a horror themed dinner theater. I put, I actually put that band together and the band was called The Rolling Bones. And we'd hand out plastic glow and a dark bone RAAs. And, uh, yeah, he led that. And then ultimately he worked at another, um, nightclub venue we had in the bar district of, of Hong Kong.

So he spent nine years with us. He, um, he sang at my wedding

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: [00:05:00] Oh wow.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: and recently my wife's 60th birthday, we celebrated with our playing live in Toronto, which was, uh, super happy for the man. He deserved it. He is, he is, uh, incredible talent and he deserves all the success and fame. He's, he's, uh, earned for himself.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: well much on this, on a path that you could never, well, maybe you could imagine him. I don't know if you could ever imagine someone becoming the lead singer of journey, but I saw all those musicians destined to do O other great things

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Mm,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: careers. But I can only imagine of having founded and had 37 businesses, or 39 businesses, if you count the other

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: mm-hmm.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Under your belt.

You must have impacted so many people in so many profound ways that you must still get surprised. Notifications or updates from former employees or rising stars that are on to do these other incredible, um, I don't know, just being on an incredible [00:06:00] path in their lives.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: No, absolutely. I think, you know, at one point we surpassed a thousand employees in the company. Um, I sold out to a public company in the end and retired, and with that, the key personnel all got a very tidy check. Um, because at the end of the day, they were the ones who made the company. I don't think we kept building restaurants because of making more money. It was young. It was, I think we can, we were rambunctious A deal would come up and Hong Kong, it was all about the rent and we get a de a decent deal. And I was like, what, what could we put here? And it, you know, it's where my addiction, I tell people I'm addicted to fairy dust.

That's where I caught my addiction. And, um, I can't shake it.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: I'm real, I'm surprised by it makes total sense, but I've never heard that before. Land cost in Hong Kong is so insane. Um, when you're looking around or spaces are there. I [00:07:00] can't imagine that you would find very many good deals, but like, walk us through a moment when you just, you found a spot and you're like, oh, this is a great deal.

Let we have to do something. I've never heard it like where the, where the uh, is the green light or red light for whether a deal happens. Right. I feel like there's many other factors, but I, I didn't know it would just be that one.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: No, I think in Hong Kong, look, there's, there's certain mistakes you can't make. Wrong rental deal, unrecoverable, wrong location. Unrecoverable wrong concept is recoverable. I can change concepts in Hong Kong in two weeks. We could change from the Pink Flamingo to the Green Flamingo. It's possible in two weeks we could do that sort of thing.

But certain mistakes you could not make. And if you did. There was no recovery. Um, and a typical one is a location in rent in Hong Kong. Those are the most critical things. Obviously the venue had to have the right ceiling heights and the right [00:08:00] shapes. That, that it was plausible. But I can tell you, I even opened restaurants where we could only build an electric kitchen at a certain size, and that became a steak frit restaurant.

And the menu only had steak, frit and salad. That was it. So we could, the job in Hong Kong or the job, I think in, in expensive world class gateway cities is location, size, space, terms, and then the restaurateur's job. And this is what most get wrong. It's our job to put a square peg into a square hole.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Hmm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Many restaurateurs decide, or chefs decide, I'm gonna open an Italian restaurant, and they find maybe a good location.

There's five other Italian restaurants down the street. It doesn't make sense. It's, it's finding a location first with the right terms, and then looking at the market and going, what does this market [00:09:00] want? And that's what I'm gonna create. So customer driven rather than ego driven. Personal identity driven.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Wow. So when I've actually, that makes complete sense, but I can totally see how most people who are doing a restaurant, they are a chef. Like they have something, they have a vision that they want to go, and now they're that, that's the round peg. And then they're looking at what all the different spaces, and that's the square hole and Oh, wow.

I, I didn't think about that. 'cause even like, I'm not a restaurateur, never have been one, never Don't claim to be one. But one of my favorite hospitality books is Setting the Table by Danny Meyer. And he always looked at the lease. Obviously he would always go in these. Kind of ancillary neighborhoods are like up

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Hmm.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: And he would look at, he originally, when he was looking at these leases, it wasn't location and it was lease, he looked at it as a, a long-term liability. They'd be like 10 or 20 year leases. But in the book, his uncle was like, no. Yes, it is a [00:10:00] liability, but you actually have to look at that as your asset because that's really your fixed runway that you can build everything off of.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Uh,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: if he went into that Union Square Cafe about, oh, this is gonna be Union Square Cafe, or GRA or Gramercy Tavern. He went into that finding a place like, I want to do something here and I'm, I have to go back and look. But I'm sure that, that the bones of that restaurant spoke to him about what it would be.

But I do think he went into those with an idea for what the menu would be, because he was also like a real, a chef guy. He loved food.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: yeah, no, I, and look, that's what most do, um, and many succeed. And I, I think what happens with a lot of chefs. Is they open a one restaurant, they succeed. So they decide to open a second restaurant and maybe they still succeed. And then when they go for the third one, they falter. And it doesn't, it could be a chef, it could be a restaurateur.

Um, and why, why, why does that happen? [00:11:00] Because you're a good chef, doesn't mean you're a good businessman, but when you think you have two restaurants that are gonna be 50 50 in each one. No, it's not. It's 40 and 40 and at three restaurants, it's not 33% in each restaurant it becomes 25, 25 and 25, and the final 25% you're starting to run a company.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Yeah.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: are you good at running a company? Because those are two different balls to juggle. Um, so, you know, I I, my background was three star Michelin in Europe. That's where I trained that. I chef it, I waited it. Um, have I ever opened that or do I ever have any intentions of opening a restaurant at that level?

The answer's no. Um, 'cause what I learned there, I learned what I don't want to do in the,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: interesting. So what, okay, so what is it about that that you don't want to do?

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: I would rather own a McDonald's and eat in a three star Michelin restaurant than own a three star Michelin restaurant. Work like an [00:12:00] animal, not eat dinner and not realize I'm hungry until I'm driving home after my 16 hours and I go through a drive through at McDonald's because I need fuel.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Hmm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: And as revolting as that might sound, or as you know, juxtaposition, contrarian, that's exactly what happens.

The, to be driven to that level is an all consuming sport. It costs, it costs your family, it costs your, it costs, marriages, drug addictions, alcohol addictions, pushing to that level. I take my hat off to those gentlemen and ladies that do that. I respect them. I understand what it means, but like I said, I'd rather own a McDonald's and enjoy the three star Michelin as a customer.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Okay. So to be at that level of a three star Michelin restaurateur or chef, um, in many ways, you have to be an uncompromising [00:13:00] visionary, right? That's your vision. You're going after at the cost of everything else, right? That is your number one priority to be done at the expense of everything else and all for all those things that you listed.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Yeah, it's no different than than Raphael Nadel and tennis to, to perform at the peak of any sport or any industry to perform at the peak in the cutting edge of it. That's time in a saddle and absolute total commitment. And if you're lucky, you're gifted on top of it with creativity and you have a business acumen, many things in those recipes have to come together in order to hit that nail on the head.

Um, and it's not easy.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: So let me push a little bit here on that idea of the uncompromising visionary from whether it's an adult or a three star Michelin restaurateur. You told a little bit a, a little bit of a lie a few minutes ago. You said you retired, didn't retire, you got on a boat, you [00:14:00] ca you went to a country. You, I don't know if you've been to Panama before,

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Hmm.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: you know what, I'm gonna start a hotel.

You know what? I'm gonna start a second hotel. You know what? I think I want to do a third hotel. So at what point is that all consuming or how, how have you created boundaries with your wife who you mentioned, your son, um, and your boat, which is also part of your family still. Right.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: No, I, I sold a boat. I sold a boat.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: it. Okay. Um, but how do, so I would say that you are unc Uncom uncompromising in your vision that you're executing right now. You're in your hotel that is in the soft opening stage right now, up in the mountains above Panama City. Um, you, you, you wanna do a third one, but that how, how have you created guardrails so that you are able to maintain balance or are you not able to, like, what's the difference between what you're doing now and that three star Michelin restaurateur.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Guilty is charged guilty. Look, I sold my business when an offer came in to [00:15:00] buy it in Hong Kong. I remember I called some of the shareholders and I said, well, what do you think Chris? And I said, look, there was a time where I knew where every fuse was and what it controlled, and I got to the point where restaurants were being built while I was on vacation and I was coming back and saying, move that light up.

I want this little darker here. I want this little brighter here. I. And the reality was I was losing my edge. I was starting to trade the pleasures of life against my business. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it meant I was gonna be less and less competitive. The guy opens next door. Owner operator is going to beat me.

Now with 37 restaurants I had buying power, I had other things that could support and we were making

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: just to be clear, the owner operator's gonna beat you because he's in there living, breathing, knows where every fuse is and can optimize.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: and optimize the customer satisfaction if they're on the floor and they're in it.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: hmm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: So I was becoming less [00:16:00] competitive. My competitive strength, however, was my buying potential landlords willing to give me lower rents because of my girth, the size of the company, stability. They knew they were gonna get paid.

We couldn't really afford to bankrupt the restaurant and walk away from it even though we did it. For the first 15 restaurants, we had separate little limited liability companies. There was firewalls in between all of them that I could jettison something that was on fire if I had to, but at a certain size you can't do that anymore because your reputation's worth more than that.

The, the economic loss, um, business sold, uh, public company took me out. Um, and, you know, that whole private equity concept, sometimes I wonder if they paid me too much. I'll never admit that, but I think maybe they did. But on the same token, because they were trading at a mulch higher multiple, they made money too.

and then, yeah, yeah, of course. Then the, the boat trip came, I dove from [00:17:00] total. Driving a company into, I built my own boat. I built a building, I built, it was 104 foot aluminum sailboat. Uh, that was a three year project. Building a building and hiring a hundred guys. And I became a shipyard. I built my own shipyard, um, which said, they said it couldn't be done.

We did it and we launched that and sailed around the world. 42 countries. You're sailing around the world. I had crew on board. We had a teacher on board for our children teaching our children in Mandarin. so

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: I, I said son before, but you have children. I've only met your son before Cannon. Right?

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: that's right. Yeah. I have a daughter also.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: What's your daughter's name? Give her a shout out. I'm so sorry.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: No problem. Kiana. So we have Kiana and Canada of,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: I apologize. I apologize. I apologize. I look forward to meeting you.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: she didn't come to Bruce's Swamp. That's the

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: exactly.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Although she says she wants, she says,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: boys.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: she says she wants to come. Um, so the. Left full-time employment [00:18:00] and basically had a full-time job building a boat. And then sailing around the world is a full-time job. There's a lot of logistics, a lot of planning things to worry about.

Of course, coupled with a lot of leisure, um, that became an all consuming passion came through the Panama Canal. The idea was we were heading back to, to Asia and we get, we needed to get into the Pacific, back to the house we'd already built in Thailand on the golf course and a kid's school was gonna be nearby.

And I came in and looked at Panama City and I was like, wow, I did not know. And I, all your viewers should do this. Google a picture of the Panama skyline

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Oh, it's insane.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: most people think it's three to four story buildings and you know, some paved roads. It's a city of 2 million people with a skyline at rivals Miami.

And when I saw that I was, I was quite in shock. We had dinner with, uh, an old childhood friend of my wife from grade school in Hong Kong that they hadn't seen [00:19:00] each other in 30 years. And that night at dinner, I asked her what the best private schools was in the best shopping mall. And we go back to our boat.

My wife was like, what are you asking her about schools? And I said, I'm thinking we should stay here for two years. That didn't go down very well. Um, that required going to sleep. And, and I revisited it with her in the morning.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Wait, help me with your wife's name.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Vicky,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Vicky.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Vicky

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Vicky from originally.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Vicky's Indian, but third generation born in Hong Kong.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Okay, got it.

So

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: my kids are born in Hong Kong. Um, and you know, the kids grew up with speaking Cantonese, with, with her, she speaks Punjab in English, and then we put them into Mandarin mainstream. So by the time we got to Panama, the kids were fluent in Mandarin, Cantonese, in English, and reading and writing traditional Chinese, I.

I looked at Panama City, I was like, if they spent two years here and became fluent in Spanish, I can't get my kids to make their bed, but I can get 'em to learn Spanish through osmosis by forcing 'em to live in a country. Um,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: [00:20:00] Then they can communicate with 75 or 80% of the world.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: exactly.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Wow.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: That's the logic of staying. And it, it took a little bit of, um, it took a couple chats with the, with the Mrs but we all agreed finally it was the best thing to do and that, and that's why we stayed here six months into Panama. The truth is, I hated Panama. I hated the country. I hated everything about it.

And six months later I was having my morning shave, um, and I looked in the mirror and I asked myself, you hate Panama City. You hate Panama, or you hate the man in the mirror.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Ah.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: A very deep moment. It was the man in the mirror. I realized at that point that my frustration with Panama was not Panama. It was me.

I was bored. The boat was on the Atlantic side. I would see the boat once a week. I was li living in a rented home, basically with limited friends waiting for my kids to come home from school. So I went into the old city. [00:21:00] I realized we might need to stay two more years, ultimately three to get the Spanish perfect.

And I went into the old town looking for a little shop house, a little building something. It was gonna be a hobby job. Two years, I'll restore a little building and I'll either sell it or rent it and we get back on boat and we leave. Well, I bought a city block and everything changed.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Wow. And then, okay, so from, from renovating a, a small store or, um, to buying a city block, at what point did you say, oh, I've done 38 or 37 re restaurants in Hong Kong, but you know what I want? I wanna do a hotel here.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: yeah, I know, I understand. I understand the question. Look, I had a real estate agent and property was becoming very hot. The old city of Panama was a derelict city coming back. Um, it was a ghetto. It was being restored. UNESCO declared, declared a World Heritage site. And then you look at old San Juan and old [00:22:00] Cartena in Columbia and you realize where the potential lied.

But the potential here was much greater. We had a city of 2 million people lying behind it in the Panama Canal. So people with, you know, we have the most dynamic economy in Central America, the safest place, um, many attributes that made me really think this is a good place to invest the money. I was outbid on three different sites.

Um, I. And my agent one day showed me a city block and he said, look, he slid it across the table. And he goes, this isn't official yet, but his look, it's, it looks like this is gonna come onto the market. And I turned the papers over and I said to him, I said, what are you doing? You know, I want a quarter building, 150 square meters per floor, two floors.

That's the target. And you're showing me a city block. And he was like, I'm sorry, I just thought maybe, and he showed me a few other things. But at the end of the day, he gave me all the papers, which I then took home. And in my abject boredom, [00:23:00] waiting for my kids to come home from school, I would look at them and mull over them.

And I looked at the city block, and then the calculator came out and a piece of paper came out and a computer and a calculator. And I started to develop how big is this and what could it be? And I, I came up with a hotel, um, and then I researched more about the building, this, this building, or two thirds of it.

A convent from 1688.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Wow.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Now all we started with were exterior walls, floors had collapsed, trees growing out of the walls. But I fell in love. I basically fell in love with an idea of restoring a convent and

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: you fall in love or become completely obsessed? Because I'm sensing there's like

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: obsession.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: an obsession.

thing.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: it started with,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: maybe it's hard to draw a line between those two, but it's like, that's your, this is your uncom. The, uh, uncompromising inner visionary was awakened

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: yeah. And I [00:24:00] remember asking for my wife for permission, 'cause this meant a complete change of the game. We're not going back to Thailand. Thailand, we're staying here.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: and the house is built. It's done in Thailand

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Yeah. Yeah. It's on a golf course sitting there waiting for us. Um, so a complete change. And my wife said to me, she goes, okay, first I gotta ask you a question.

Have we spent all the money? Is it all gone from the sale of the other business? Is this why you need to go back to work? And I said, no, it's fine. And she said, well, okay, if you do this, you're gonna deploy our capital into it. I said, that's correct. And she goes, what if it fails? What about the rest of our life?

Then I said, well then it's, I've messed up our retirement. And she said to me, Sue, my decision here is we live comfortably ever after. If you do not go back to work, you go back to work. We change all our plans for the future, and if you fail, you're gonna ruin our retirement. And I said, [00:25:00] yep, that's about the size of this.

And she said, why? Why? Tell me why.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: So Vicki is a really good scenario planner.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Yeah. Well I think when it, when it affects our whole life everything's going upside down. And I went for a little walk and I came back and I said to her, I said, why do some men climb on Everest? Or some people. Climb Ont, there's no money up there. I said this is a once in 50 lifetime opportunity. If this was a Holiday Inn Express and nothing against Holiday Inn Express or uh, any limited service hotel, I wouldn't have done it.

But to restore a convent for 1688, you know, I could go buy an old manor house in Scotland where sheep walks past once a week, but to be able to buy a city block from 1688 with that sort of pedigree in an up and coming city, that's once in 50 lifetimes that something like that happens.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Yeah.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: And she gave [00:26:00] me the green light and well, that's that then, then the disease f set in and the rot and the passion and like it was an eight year project to, to, from that point to opening eight years of your life.

That's a long time.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: what was your original schedule?

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: You know, I, I think I probably thought I could get it done in about four.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Mm-hmm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: It took a couple years to get approvals. You know, this is a world UNESCO, world Heritage site, grade one. This is, this is, you know, it took about two and a half years to get the approval. Nobody wanted to invest. I in, when I say invest bankers, some bankers in Panama, when I said the World Hotel, Word Hotel, they heard a four letter word.

They laughed at me. There was a total oversupply of hotels. And everybody I spoke to when they said, I said, I'm gonna open a hotel, they were like, what? Are you insane? The hotel business is terrible. And I said, well, not only am I insane, I said, I'm arrogant and belligerent [00:27:00] too. I'm gonna build the best historic landmark hotel in Central America.

I'm gonna change the tourism of this country. Big statement. Right.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Yeah.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Um, you know, I have a thoughts on that. Sometimes when everybody tells me not to do anything, and you know, they think you're insane. Well, Albert Einstein once said, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome.

And that's what the hotel business of Panama is. Modern buildings developers build them, bring in brands to operate or manage or franchise them. And they're not selling experience. They're selling a room. And that scares the hell out of me. That's a mugs game that the price is driven by the internet, not by the experience, by the customer.

Um, the more that it opens, the less control I have. I don't like that at all. Um, but I sat in a dark room and I said to myself, if I listen to what everybody said or saying, I'm not really [00:28:00] making a decision, am I? I'm doing what I've been told to do. But how can those people tell me what to do if they can't see what I see?

It's wrong. You know, I'm opening a hotel. Yes. And my hotel, let's say cost $150 more than um, a five star hotel. You pay a premium. I'm not $450 or what do, I'm $150 more than you have to spend to get your clean, safe bed that you need to suffice your requirement to sleep so you can spend that money, have no memory and never recall anything about Panama.

Or you spend $150 premium and you have a memory for life. I believe that people are willing to do that, and I can say now that I'm right,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Yeah. Well that's also the draw to the independent hotel, right? And

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: absolutely.[00:29:00]

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Hospitality experiences. It's not about the room. The room has to be good. It's not about the public spaces, it's, it's not about the neighborhood. it's all those things tied together. And I think ultimately in many of the most successful independent hotels, there's that passion and vision or uncompromising vision of the owner, the owner operator. Um, and you're in there doing that. And now you're onto number two. So one of the things I was struck by is you built this one, it took eight years. It was a, the ultimate passion thrown into it. Um, it's a successful hotel. Now you're on to number two. Um, and now you have this vision of potentially doing three, but walk us through the one, the two, the three and what that means. Um, and yeah, I'd love to just share that, like how, what is your, your end game vision for this or visions.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Okay, I, I'm [00:30:00] gonna take you back in, in the story

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Okay.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: to where everybody said, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this. And I sat in a dark room thinking about it. My conclusion was very simple. I believe people will pay a premium for an experience. So my job is to do, to create the experience. If I deliver the experience and I create the food and beverage concepts and the, the service standard, and then complete the mission, it should work.

So I'm gonna go contrarian and I'm gonna go against everybody else's recommendation. 'cause what they have actually recommended to me, they said, don't do it. The reality is they gave me a crystal ball to see the future. And what do I mean by that? We all wanna buy stocks low and sell high, and nobody gets to do it, or not many get to do it.

And the reason we can't do that is we don't know supply and demand.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Hm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: That dictates pricing. Well, in this case, I know half the equation. I know the bottoms. [00:31:00] The banks won't lend, developers won't build new hotels. We bottomed, we've oversupplied the market by we, we grew, Panama Market grew by 110% in two years.

The number of beds, no city could absorb that. So we bottomed. So I know I'm entering at the bottom of the market,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Mm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: but I'm entering with a unique product. If I can survive now down the road, I have a very clean runway in front of me that no new hotels will be built until the complete industry stabilizes.

And the banks are gonna wanna see two years of that before they lend. And then we've got three, a three year build time. I have an 8, 9, 10 year runway in front of me. So that's one thing that was part of the reason I'm doing it. And I'm still answering your question, sorry it's a bit long-winded,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: I love it. Keep going.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: but. I sat in my dark room and said, okay, I'm going for it.

But I had this lingering doubt. The what if their right doubt. [00:32:00] If I built what I said I was gonna build and deliver the quality that I intended to do and it didn't work, that would mean I'm in a glass box and a glass ceiling cap was put on top, and quite frankly, it was put on top by Panama, not bringing enough people in willing to pay that premium.

The problem with that is we're now going to the water's, filling into the room, and it's gonna be the worst of any business because I'm going to die and I'm going to die slowly. I'm gonna bankrupt slowly. You don't have the money and the income to support your product. You have to cut costs. You can't sleep at night.

You make yourself sick and you die slowly. The worst of all businesses. I would much, much rather take a bullet and

get, you know, through the pain. I didn't like that concept, so I thought to myself, what do you do? If that happens? What [00:33:00] is the, that's the defensive, but what's the contrarian do? We're in an evolutionary world, we have to think about revolutionary businesses.

You're exposed. If you're an evolutionary business, you're exposed to danger from a revolutionary business. So what's the contrarian view? What's the offensive defensive? And I'm like, if Panama's not bringing enough people in, I need to change the country. I need to crack the glass so the air can slip in.

And my contrarian view was, I'll build two more hotels, two more smaller ones with their own runways. I'll create a circuit in Panama. The circuit could be hosted a trifecta, Perfecta, I call it. Could be hosted anywhere else. It could be in Costa Rica, it could be in Honduras, it could be anywhere. But if I started here, if LA Hotel in Costco, Viejo does not make it or struggling, I'm gonna throw more money [00:34:00] at it, bring more investors, and I'm gonna create my own country.

So that was the idea. Fast forward, we hit COVID. In COVID we're 90%, 80% built. What does the world look like post COVID? There was an idea that changed it to apartments. I overruled my shareholders, they wanted a vote and I said, I own a majority. I said, there's no vote. We're doing it. We're going. And they're like cutting the budget of the hotel.

I said, I'm not cutting the budget either. We're going for it. We gotta go for gold. Um, and we did it. And post COVID, little hotel started opening up around Panama, little six rooms, eight room boutique hotels that are 500 to $3,000 a night.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Mm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: And I'm seeing, I see green shoots all through the country in that luxury adventure travel market.

And those people are, they're looking for a new drug. They're looking for new places, but they want their 500 thread count sheet at the end of the adventure of getting there. So I'm seeing the green [00:35:00] shoots. I opened Laia we're profitable from our first full month.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Wow.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: There's no reason for Chris to build more hotels.

A year later, a couple too many glasses of red wine. I took over a 12,000 square foot mansion in the old city. I made a art gallery, a restaurant, it's called Ana, a jazz club and speakeasy. So now in the hotel, I have five restaurants and two bars and a block away. I have a 12,000 square foot mansion from 1924 with another restaurant and two more bars.

Um, the hotel.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: you operating those restaurants

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: I, I operate everything. Yes.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Okay, cool.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Hey, everybody. We've been doing this podcast for over three years now, and one of the themes that consistently comes up is sustainability, and I'm just really proud to announce that our sponsor, Berman Fall Hospitality Group is the first within our hospitality industry to switch to sustainable and recyclable packaging, eliminating the use of styrofoam.

Please check out their impact page in the show notes for [00:36:00] more info.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: And you know, there's their scale you run. Sometimes I believe five restaurants is easier to operate than one because I can afford stronger people to distribute their costs. Um, the new hotel where I'm sitting today, um, I bought it to flip it.

That's the truth. Uh, this was supposed to be a hotel flip. I renovate the place in nine months. I run it for a year. I get the profit up, I sell it at a higher multiple. And I finally learned the d the difference between earning money and making it.

this was, a hotel flip that was the excuse to my wife and my opportunity.

I get to throw a bit of fairy dust because quite frankly, my wife says I'm better at making babies and taking care of 'em

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Yeah. Okay.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: in a project sense. Um, my addiction is to creating new things. And this. Would allow me [00:37:00] to create and allow me to make money. That's the best of both worlds as far as Chris Lens is concerned.

And you know, by the time I was signing a deed to buy it, I thought back to that idea of the trifecta, Perfecta. I thought, wait a minute, what I'm doing with the second hotel, this is the first international hotel in the interior of Panama. This is the first hotel.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Wow.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: It's a big statement, right? Very big statement.

There is another, there is a, a Marriott property, but this is, that property is part of a major housing development golf course. Real estate development. It's not a standalone hotel. Live and die by the hotel per se. So I argue that this is the first hotel in the country live of, we're only 70 rooms, but it's a high unbound.

So this is the first international hotel and

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: then just to be clear, Panama City Company is Hyatt Unbound as

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: That's correct.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Okay. I

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: into that in a little while, but keep going with you.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: there is no comp [00:38:00] set. There's nothing that I could look at and say, this should work. I could in other countries in, in latam, but not here. The only thing I could look at as a comp set was the hotel I was buying. Very odd. So a bit of a risk.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: It makes flipping harder too.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Absolutely. Unless I can break, break the paradigm.

I

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: And show cash flow and then you,

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Exactly. Obviously I thought I could do that. I would've, I wouldn't have signed a check. But upon signing a check, it's like, wait a minute, if I do one more, I'm two thirds of the way to the trifecta per fecta. If I do one more, I can change the paradigm. And my wife is like, why? And I said, well, this is once in a hundred lifetime opportunity.

And it's not necessarily driven by economics. Although there is an economics beside argument, and I, let me explain both. If I do do the third hotel, it will be the [00:39:00] only three hotels linked with its own private air service with its own private runways. In all of latam never, this has never been done first mover advantage.

You get a old city experience, you get a mountain experience, and you get a beach experience, and I take you room to room within 40 minutes. I believe the traveler loves to travel, but we hate getting there.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Yeah.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Airports, if I can cut all that out and make it, you know, the, the pilot will say, I'm ready when you are that type of travel, this is jet set stuff for not jet set money.

I think that I could change the future of panama's tourism for forever. Only one person gets to make that claim and now it's my ego talking. Yes, but it's also relevant that I'm aware. I have an opportunity to make a significant difference that most of us will never see in our lifetimes.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Mm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: So having that opportunity and believing I have the [00:40:00] capability is hard to resist.

You know, I, I'm addicted to it.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Well, I think you said a minute ago you're, you're building your own country, right? The trifecta, Perfecta.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Yeah. It could, it could change the whole thing. And of course then you, you get into, we created something completely unique that major luxury tour operators, major luxury investors, high, we ultra high net worth individuals would wanna buy. This is a very marketable commodity. It becomes a significant exit strategy.

People can copy me. Sure. Of course you can copy me, but I have two hotels finished and I'm planning in the third. You need to build the three first.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Yeah.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: I got eight year mover advantage.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: But I also, uh, and that's that original run you were

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: yeah, yeah, yeah,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: For anyone to catch up. So the other thing I think that's really interesting. Is that you have that operator, um, [00:41:00] passion that you're putting into all these three. So you can, again, continue to be that uncompromising visionary and focus on the experience.

Right? So that's where this whole conversation kind of made a right turn was just on that independent idea

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: and experience, that whole cohesive thing. And I love the idea of having air service between them all. And you mentioned Marriott, because Marriott is somewhere up in the interior of the country as well, in a bigger housing development. But you chose Hyatt to ma to manage all three of these or two of the properties.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: they do not manage. No. The, it's, these are.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: operate.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: No, they do not operate. It's a, it's a franchise contract only. I operate, I operate the hotels independently. Um, so quite often you'll have a franchise, a hotel owner will buy a franchise hotel and then hire a third party independent manager that you've never heard of.

Company to manage, in this case did. I'm [00:42:00] owner operator. It was very unusual for Hyatt and they actually had to, they had to come down here and interview me and like, and obviously I passed. Um, so we're owner operator, um, and Hyatt as a soft brand. Really what we get out of this, we have access to the reservation network.

We have access to loyalty members. Those people have access to us. There's a, some sort of stamp of approval on our product. Um, but I have my. Almost total independence to do what I want. They're, they're, they're, they're very unforgiving on life and safety that has to be to American norm standard. Un they, they no compromise there, but they cannot commoditize unique and boutique hotels.

It can't be done. In fact, you don't want to do that. You don't wanna com monetize [00:43:00] a unique hotel because you would take its uniqueness away.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Hmm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: So ultimately, the big brands of the world, when the internet came, if I had come with my two hotels are totally unique and they're totally different from each other.

I can explain that in a minute, but if I had come with a restored, I, I call our city hotel a living museum. It didn't fit a Hyatt, it wouldn't fit a Holiday Inn. And pre-internet, no brand would've entertained branding that. But then the internet came and the world changed. And suddenly you could find a hotel in Tokyo with 14 rooms that was unique in boutique, and you'd book direct through through booking.com.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Hmm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: The big brands started losing market share to the independents, and in order to sort of claim that back, the market share they were losing, we saw things like unbound collection start, autograph collection, um, uh, luxury collection, all of these soft brands, [00:44:00] which is a way that I can interact with a big brand without losing my identity.

So I get the benefit of buying power of a big brand negotiations with online travel agents. I get, um, in and, and standards to a certain degree. Um, but we can both live in our in opposite hemispheres. But our water goes down the same drain. It just goes down in different directions, but we can do it peacefully and together.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: So I assume Hyatt wasn't the only brand that you were speaking with. What, what was it that drew you to Hyatt specifically?

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: first of all, the Unbound collection, I think, I think some of the other brands just want to sign hotel deals.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Mm-hmm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: I'm not gonna pick on any brand here, but when a, when a hotel doesn't fit into a standard box, we can throw it into the unique and boutique collection box. [00:45:00] I don't wanna be in a box with a bunch of other hotels that have varying standards from a, a two star to a five star hotels.

I what I like about the Hyatt Unbound Collection, if you study their hotels, they're all unique and boutique. They all tell a story. They're all special and. I am proud to be linked with them. You know, when they renovate the Scotland yard in London. I like being associated with that. I like being associated with quality of those hotels where some of the other soft brands are not maintaining their integrity, thereby would be damaging mine.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: And was it anything in particular about person that you were negotiating with at Hyatt that was able to tell that story to you? Or does, or had you done a lot of research and you're like,

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: No

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: oh, you know what, Hyatt, I think Hyatt's the one? Or were you, were you surprised along the process, along [00:46:00] the process of,

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: O other.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: all the soft brands?

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: I interviewed him all and I did my comparative chart. I did all of that. A lot of them were like young, 32 year olds. Come on, we got you. We got your back sign here, Hyatt. When we, I started talking business after coffee. And, uh, they said, cook, let's not talk about business yet. Let's go for lunch and have a bottle of wine.

Get to know each other. I wanna hear about what you wanna do. It was more curated and smaller. Um, Hyatt has grown dramatically in the last five years, six years,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: I also get the feeling and not knowing much about it, but they've grown tremendously, they also have a small feel to them. Right. And it's

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: they do. There's more,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: element of caring and individual individuality that, that you experience through even, even like a big Hyatt Regency.

Um, there's just, I don't know. I feel like you can pick up the phone and talk to someone.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: uh, yeah, I think so. And I, I think they feel part of their DNA versus other [00:47:00] brands is they, they care a lot more about food and beverage. And I believe that food and beverage, a lot of brands will actually, a lot of owners, in fact. We will lease out the restaurant of the ho of the hotel and somebody else operates it because it's less profitable, it's more headache.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Hmm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: I understand that when that's when a hotel becomes dollars per square foot, my definition of hospitality is very different. I'm old school. My, and it's all about the customer. It's all about our presence, our f and b in the hotel, that's our calling card.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Oh my God. I just realized something totally crazy. might be the first interview I've done in forever where I forgot to ask how you define hospitality. At the beginning I was so transfixed in the story and, and journey and everything that normally I ask that at the beginning. Wow.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: We

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: you for doing my job for me.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: look, I, I'm an old [00:48:00] world hotel.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Hmm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: in fact, I left the hotel business because I, I was made the corporate directive. Omni Hotels At the age of 30, I was in charge of Asia, and when I got to the corporate office, um, I saw a lot of people more interested in protecting their jobs than forwarding what we were doing in, in a development experimental range.

And, and I felt that my whole, my freedom of creativity was gonna be squashed. And I did that job for one year, 365 days to the day.

And then I opened a horror themed dinner theater, which was completely in the opposite direction of the corporate world. And I wore makeup every evening. Um, I believe very firmly in hospitality.

I remember I had to present, my last presentation I made to Omni was for a hotel, um, in Jakarta. It had five restaurants in it. And I asked my boss not to tell the president what I was [00:49:00] doing. So the first time the president saw it, we were all in a room with the Indonesian owner. And I said, I started my presentation saying to the owner, we're gonna build five restaurants.

Two, we're gonna go bankrupt in the first year. We'll have to change them. There was jaw drops around the table. That is not what you tell an owner, but I said to him, but the other three are gonna make so much money that you'll be happy to renovate the other two. And those restaurants are gonna create the DNA and create the reputation of the hotel because that's where locals go.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Hmm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: And then they've never seen a hotel room, but they, when you call and say, I'm coming, I'm coming to Panama, where should I stay? Stay at this hotel because I have a link to it. I know it, I know it's restaurant, I know it's soul. I, I, I felt its pulse. I've never seen a room. But I'll recommend you that hotel.

And I think a lot of hotels have forgotten about this. Because they've gotten into the commoditized room [00:50:00] selling business. That's not me. I sell an experience

and my local market, 65% of my hotel in a city's income is from food and beverage. That's unheard of in a hotel. Absolutely unheard of.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Well, I think you said it earlier. Um, it's not necessarily, uh, it, I think historically it's unheard of. I think if you talk to any general manager, it like, Hey, gm, what's, what, how, what's the fastest way to get your hotel to be profitable? They say, get rid of f and b,

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Hmm.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: the best. But in the independent space, I find that they're leading with the F and the B, and sometimes they lead with the B.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Yep. Absolutely.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: but, but it's very rare. But I think it only really has started happening more frequently in the independent space. And then. Going back to the original question of Hyatt. So in what, other than like having the [00:51:00] glass of wine to get to know you better, um, and really kind of so that they could put the finger on your pulse, right. How did they, how did you know that they would put, give such a level of importance to f and b? Or did, did they lead with that or did you have to ask questions to

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: No, no, no. In fact,

a normal soft branding deal is, is a percentage of room revenue is a royalty to the brand

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: mm-hmm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: And a percentage of f and b royalty to the brand. I said, and to me, I said to Hyatt, what are you gonna do with my f and b? You got nothing to do with it. I'm gonna do it. I'm not, I'm not gonna pay you. And that was a, that was a sort of a juxtaposition.

Um. And we had arguments about that or debates discussions. Um, but they're not running my hotel. This is a critical issue and one of the big points about Hyatt is their percentage of royalty is higher than all of the other brands, [00:52:00] but they charge it on what they deliver. be

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: how how do you define on what they deliver? Is that what's coming through their own booking engine?

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: exactly.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Ah

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: So you, if, if they were to drive 100% of my business through their, through their booking through hyatt.com, it would actually be one of my ch cheapest sources of bookings. So I would gladly have them put a hundred percent of my business through. The only way I can have it cheaper is somebody books directly with me.

Um, but that's not really how the world works. It does for corporate events and group bookings, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but that was a big driver for me for Hyatt, coupled with. They were conscious and clear that not every hotel that wants to is gonna be coming Unbound collection. You know, they, at that point, I think there was 32 hotels in the collection.

I think we're at 51 now. That's slow growth. It's meaning they're being [00:53:00] picky. And that brand was a lifestyle brand originally, and they've just elevated to a luxury brand. It's also very important. So they raised it to their level of, let's say a Park Hyatt. So they've recognized what they've, the group of hotels they put together is more than just lifestyle.

It's luxury. And they've moved their own brand up in their own eyes. So it means they're curating correctly and they're, they're being picky.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: That's interesting. 'cause if you, that's super interesting because if you think about if they had 31 or whatever hotels when they were talking to you, you had one, but that now you have two. At some point in there, you were probably five to 10%. No, probably five to 8% of their portfolio

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Correct.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: And I'm sure other conversations and in their curation with other people like you other countries, I bet that you are part of them helping elevate them the Unbound brand to more of a luxury offering.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: [00:54:00] Absolutely. Um,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Huh?

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: we have for three years been by their Ma Hyatt has their own, um, guest satisfaction survey

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Hmm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: That they administer, not us in the Unbound collection since day one. We are the number two hotel in the world in the Unbound collection. There's one hotel that keeps beating me in China. Um, the hotels.

What I like to say is we have, we've had for three years running, had the number one Hyatt Ho Unbound collection hotel in the Western Hemisphere.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Okay,

so now I have a question on the number one, 'cause it's guest survey, correct?

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: yes.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: in the comments that are coming back, what are, what are the top three things that the customers love about the experience at Lania?

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Uniqueness to the hotel. So we have 88 rooms. We have three different wings. We have an American colonial wing, we have a French colonial wing and a Spanish colonial wing inside a convent from [00:55:00] 1688. Our American wing, that those buildings are younger. Um, our French wing was actually, the housed is inside of what was a Jesuit university, the seventh oldest university in North and South America, that after the exile of the Jesuits in 1767 had a fire and burnt down.

Only left some remedial structure. The French rebuilt it when they came to Panama to build a Panama Canal. Um, so when we inherited that building, it had a French feel to it, so we decided to roll with the French. You know, Panama has sort of been colonialized by the Spanish, then the French and then the Americans.

So our hotels, when we say living museum, we have over 3000 framed images on our wall. I started with a library of 8,000 historical images. It took me five years to put that together.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Hmm

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: You imagine printing 3000 images and framing them, and where do they go? Just that, the logistics behind that. [00:56:00] Um, the five restaurants, the standard of service we bear and the authenticity.

It's a unique hotel, and this is, I call it the curse of LA company hotels and resorts, because I cannot build anything normal anymore.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Yeah. So when you found the flipper up in, up in the mountains,

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: It couldn't have been as unique as what you found in the old UNESCO

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: No.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Heritage Site. So how do you, how do you take that uniqueness and apply it? what you've done up in the mountains

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: yeah, this is what, you know, I, this is what I call a cursive laia. Um, if I had a decent, let's say, four star hotel branded in the city, and I opened the same four or five star, but a decent branded hotel, and I opened a mountain branded hotel, and you came to the first hotel, and then you're, you're gonna go see the sister property, most guests will be [00:57:00] happy if you come to LA and Costco and you spend days in one of the most unique hotels you've ever seen.

And then you go to our sister property in a mountain and find a regular five star hotel. You're not gonna be happy. It cannot be called Lania, but yet that's the curse. We cannot build normal. But on the same token, I don't have another convent from 1688, so I have to reach very deep into my bag of tricks to pull out something new.

And I tell people, when we opened a company in the city, we pulled a rabbit out of a hat. When we opened Villa a block away, we pulled a small hat out of a rabbit. This time I'm pulling a big hat out of a rabbit.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Wow.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: And the DNA of this hotel is found at, we call La del Va, it's location, an art and wellness house.[00:58:00]

So this time we have about 160 sculptures throughout the hotel. All in the, in the public areas, inside the hotel's shape of a u with swimming pools inside the building that we took over. Had a Tuscan feel to it. We've expanded that feel. We bought the property next door. We opened it all up. We have about 50 outdoor sculptures.

So we have a sculpture park. We have an art and wellness house. And we're currently, when I say soft open, we have 60 rooms available and three restaurants open. But we're about to, in about July, we're gonna open a 22,000 square foot spa. It started as 18. We just expanded it.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: that's huge. How many, um, like ma uh, service, what do they even call those

beds, how many beds are in there as far as like, uh,

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Uh,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: tables and treatment treatment rooms. There we

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: yeah, indoor four treatment rooms plus a VIP room for two. So two in two double doubles. Uh, three singles. Uh. We're [00:59:00] making quite a large area, outdoor, um, this area of nature. We have a very temperate climate and the part of the property we're building in, I'm actually making a humans bird nest park behind the spa.

These are birds nests physically big enough for humans to get into. Some two people can go inside. This is your meditating yoga Zen area of the property. This is where all the birds are. The birds wildlife here is incredible.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: And it's temperate because you're at altitude,

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: you got 700 meters, we average 26 degrees Celsius year round here.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Okay.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Um, so we're making about another six beds outdoor so you can hear the sounds of nature and be with nature rather than air conditioned cubicle. But the spa indoor, it's gonna be about 18,000 square feet in indoor where you go through. You'll leave a change room, go down a long tunnel, a brick tunnel to get to a round room with no windows, [01:00:00] and you'll look down into the ground.

You'll go down into the ground in a spiral staircase, and you, around the periphery of the spiral staircase, you're gonna see water glowing. You go down a staircase, the last five stairs are into water.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Oh wow.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Then you're about a, a meter deep of water. You, so a little over three feet. And you have a 47 foot tunnel in front of you, built at 90 degrees that you have to go through, and you arrive in underground Roman baths.

Um, there's a, an underground Roman baths. There's a second story underground with a salt pool where you float in it. Um, there's a whole sound, bathrooms, uh, salt vapor rooms, cold water, plunge, jacuzzi, steam rooms. This is mega. Um, and I'm not playing games. I'm, my intention is to build a best spot in Central America, period.

That's the goal. I won't accept anything less. And again, the nature, the truth is God did [01:01:00] 50% of the work up here. Um, the old owners of the restaurant next door that I bought in the hotel did 25% of the work. I'm doing a final 25% of the work, but I want a hundred percent of the credit. Um, but it's, I'm going to hammer home a uniqueness that is completely different than a city.

But yet the objective is to be just as inspiring and unique. And this is my problem. And a curse, which I've now renamed the curse because it sounds negative into the guiding light for the third hotel. That we don't do normal, we don't. But if I can deliver three experiences completely and utter, utterly unique.

But at the highest level, where else has that been done? You can see that in a week.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: I, I don't know, because the, the closest that comes to mind I, for my honeymoon, we almost did [01:02:00] this, but it was, there was a bombing in Bali, so we couldn't go in 2002, I

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: I recall. I recall

well.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Ed, the Four Seasons, ed, and then I, uh, Jim Bro Bay, I Jimon Bay, uh, where you could go stay at one up in the mountains and then they would act, when it was time to go down to the beach, they would pack your bags

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: you in like one of those old

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Bugs, colorful things drive you down. And then they unpack for you. I was like, oh, that's amazing. But we, we wound up not going. Um, but I've not heard of three maybe like those. I think they were luxury collection hacienda around Meida

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: maybe. But like those are all kind of the sa in the same topography,

right?

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: you know, the, the objective I have is much stronger that you call, you call to make a booking and we, you're interested in three hotels. You got a private concierge assigned to you. A zoom call takes place with you and your misses or your [01:03:00] spouse partner. We explain the three hotels, what we have to offer, and then we ask you what do you like?

Are you a beach person? Are you a mountain person? Are you a hiker? Are you horseback riding? What do you like? And then we'll cur we'll, and how long do you wanna come for? And we'll make a recommended package for you. We'll organize your tee offs. We'll organize everything that you need and your private concierge.

We'll meet you at the airport airside when you arrive, take you through VIP security clearance, and we take care of everything after that.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: almost got like a safari feel, you know? It's, uh.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Safaris are the closest ones where a large operator will have two lodges because of different game. Now fly you from one lodge to the other. Because here they have elephants in there, they have lions. Um, but I wanna show the beauty this country has and quickly, logistically, quickly,

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Yeah.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: We're flying over the ocean and we see a whale, which there's many, we have two whales seasons here, the pilot's gonna circle around to make sure everybody gets a picture.[01:04:00]

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Hmm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Um, but this sort of experience was normally would be viewed as a $2,000 a day experience. I believe I can do it a lot more cost efficient than that. Um, I've chosen the hotels that it's literally a 20 minute flight, 20 minute flight, 20 minute flight, but it's 40 minute hotel to hotel. But I changed your world in 40 minutes. And

that's the exciting part. And look, there's a business side behind it too, that if I can create this and nobody else has this. Somebody else might want it

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: well, someone else might want it. Pay a really healthy multiple that may happen. But then I'm glad you brought up Everest, Mount Everest before. Like why do you climb it? Because it's there. This trifecta, perfecta, let's say it's five years in the future, let's say it's done, humming

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: your

intra lodge, uh, airline is going, you're like, [01:05:00] you're giving all these experiences. It's complete. What's the next summit for you? The uncompromising visionary, and then what's the difference between that and that three star Michelin? Is, is it because you're going to bed earlier? I,

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: No. Look, I think the three star Michelin requires absolute commitment and personal attention. People want to see that chef when we get a little bit bigger. I said earlier, sometimes five restaurants is easier to run than one.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: mm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: As I get girth, I can hire better people to infuse my culture and push them to do it.

I still like to be present. My favorite job till this day is Waitering. Last night at 10 30, I was clearing plates in one of my restaurants. My staff look at me, they, they go, this is what you want, right? This is key to you. This is your culture. And yes, it's, I'm old world. I love that. My favorite job in the world, it won't be five years.

If I do the [01:06:00] third hotel, it will be three or I will not do it. And I'm 59 years old now. Time is a trade. And you ask me what I want. Do I wanna build another boat? I wanna go to the Arctic. And I Antarctic. My wife's not too happy about that. And I have a few other chapters I wanna write in my life that have nothing to do with this.

And I'm aware that time is a factor

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: And health.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Health. Yeah. I do not want to be building a third hotel. I'm 65, that it won't economically change my life.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Hmm.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: I'm not interested. I tell people, you know, if you think of, uh, was it Burlington Railway in America or, or Amtrak?

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: of 'em.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Amtrak. If a hotel chain is Amtrak Railroad or Burlington, I'm not interested to build that kind of railroad.

But if you ask me if I wanna finish with an Orient, express the answer's, yes, I see [01:07:00] an opportunity to create something unique and boutique and special, something I could hang my hat on. Maybe it's something that's generational for my children to take over. I don't know. and I'm not smart enough as a businessman to have that all figured out.

I've always said that I keep doing what I'm good at and the solutions will come.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: And maybe in the three years, or two or three years, when the trifecta perfecta is done, You have this new boat, you're going to the Arctic and the Antarctic. That's your pause for what's next or not next, who knows?

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: I don't know. I don't know. I'm,

I'm trying not to.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: are you going to freeze your ass off with your mom and dad is the real question.

I,

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: They better have a job by then and be working there.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: they'll be clearing tables

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: You got it.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Perfecta.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: They'll be doing something somewhere, but not with me. It's their time to work.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: Awesome. Um, Chris, this has just been a [01:08:00] fantastic conversation and very inspiring. And now I feel like I need to get off my ass and do another business. So thank you for energizing me. I'm sure you've energized and impacted some listener. Um, loved this conversation so much. It's so great to reconnect with you. Um, and I want to give you a wholehearted thank you for sharing your story with all of our listeners. I.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: My pleasure, pleasure. Hope I didn't talk too much.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: No, I loved it. And um, listeners, if you're like me and this like sparked a fire under your ass or you know, someone that needs a little a match lighting, please send this to them. Um, this has been one of my favorite conversations from a, I met so long ago in like a different life. So it's so good to reconnect, um, and hear the story in more detail. Um, but pass it along. Don't forget to like and subscribe it and if you have any questions or comments Chris can be reached at.

chris_1_05-28-2025_145955: Best way, [01:09:00] um, hlc panama.com or through hyatt.com. Type in Panama. You're gonna find,

ask,

ask for the Canadian guy. You'll find.

dan-ryan--he-him-_2_05-28-2025_155955: for the Canadian guy. Yeah. And we'll put all that in the show notes as well. So, um, I just wanna say thank you to our listeners 'cause without you we wouldn't be having these amazing conversations and being impacted by people like Chris. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And we'll catch you next time.