Defining Hospitality

DH - Aggie Zamir
===

Speaker: [00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.

This podcast is sponsored by Berman Fall Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Today's guest is a seasoned leader and speaker in the world of luxury hospitality. She's active in many industry groups such as A HLA and is a guest lecturer at SCI Arch in Los Angeles. She's a Vice president of National Hospitality and Gaming at Cumming Group. Ladies and gentlemen, Zamir. Welcome, Aggie.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Hi, Dan. Thank you.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Welcome all the way from the [00:01:00] beautiful sunny city of Los Angeles. It's great to have you there.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: thank you.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Well, I know it's been, this has been a really long time in the making and I just wanna say it was at an industry event in Los Angeles, Alice, I believe it was maybe two or three years ago. I don't remember exactly. And on a whim you just said, Dan, what do you have plans for tonight? And I said, nothing. And I, you, you invited me to this wonderfully curated dinner in downtown LA of just such a great, incredible mix of people from our industry, from designers, other outside finance, other consultants. And it was like such a, and it, we really didn't even talk about what we did at that table at all. And it was on the roof or in like some enclosed area, like up high in the restaurant. And I just remember having the most lovely time and it was just so inspiring [00:02:00] be part of this great spot and not talk about. Really what we did, but it's like why we do what we do. And it's really been inspiring to me as I think about this podcast and I could take it next.

And I think a lot of it has to do with these smaller, more intimate, um, gatherings or salons. And, um, I, I just wanna thank you for inviting me to that and b, showing me how such a well curated dinner could be such a incredible success on so many different levels. So thank you.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Well, you're welcome. And that was at Redbird in downtown LA

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Yes.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yeah, and we were in what I call, and I don't know what they call it, but I call it their chef's kitchen. And if you remember the, the chef was behind us making dinner for us right there. And it was, it's always a fun group. We, we put together a fun group of people and some, I mean, we try to say that work [00:03:00] is, work talk is not allowed.

And, but there has to be lots of laughter. And, and I think it comes through and it's fun and relationships, like long-term relationships have been forged through those dinners. It's a, it's a fun thing to do.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I, and actually a lot of guests, um, on this podcast from the past came through like on the

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: the law side, on the owner

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Um, it was people that I'd never, it was, it was, it was really like, so being so passionate about our industry and people who I normally would never talk to like other consultants in birthing a project, um, really fantastic and, and eye-opening for me.

So I just say thank you. Thank you. And

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: are welcome, welcome.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: that dinner with the chef there at Redbird in that Chef Chef's kitchens room, it was really, you know, there's so many different ways to perform. [00:04:00] Except be a part of some hospitable experience. And that was a, a really memorable, hospitality experience for me.

You know, and there's like, it's such a broad spectrum of, of how you can experience things, but I mean, it was very memorable. And I, and that's a great segue into Aggie, what does hospitality mean to you?

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: I was waiting for that question. Um, you know, I'm from the south, so southern hospitality is ingrained in me, you know, my, from my great-grandmother on down. And, um, I think one thing that draws me to our industry and is the definition of hospitality for me is welcoming. You know, you, you welcome your guests.

You welcome. And by guests I don't mean hotel guests. I mean, you're welcoming me on your podcast and I'm welcoming you at my dinner. [00:05:00] And in any given conversation, whether it's with my coworker in the office next door, I'm welcoming them into my world. Right, in some sense. And so it's, to me, it's, it's a sense of welcoming a person by allowing them to be seen and allowing them to be heard, um, and giving them space for that.

And then also really building community through it. Um, you know, I grew up in a really small little town and we were welcome in every home, no matter what. Like as kids, you just run through some random person's back door. I mean, maybe not random, but we'd always go running through our neighbor's back door.

And there was a sense of community built from that and around that. And that to me is hospitality. And that's what keeps me here.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Um, it's interesting, I'm, I'm always fascinated by as far and, we'll, [00:06:00] we'll talk about the what you do at Cumming and what Cumming does, but to be seen and heard and felt and like to build this community. Often in many of the things of our vocations is at odds with what we're trying to accomplish, right?

It's like, I need to open this damn hotel. I see you. I hear you. But like, we gotta get these heads in the beds. We have to turn the keys over to the owner. I'm acting as the representative for the owner. But I think a lot of that and stress happens on every single project. But I have a feeling, and this is where I guess you could share Cumming does as far as like being an owner's rep, also a project management office, which is a term I'd never heard about before speaking to you, or A PMO, which sounds really cool. But I guess a lot of that has to do with surprises happen. And I find that the teams that you have community with [00:07:00] and that you build for any particular project, oftentimes will minimize that stress. Stress still happens, but it's like it's having that trust. So how do you, how do you balance that and seeing and understanding and building that community, but also. Handing the keys over to the owners at one point. Once the new hotel is built or the renovation is complete.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: look, you said it, it's trust, right? Like you build a team around, you're our guys. Um, our technical team builds a team around them of consultants, of, of people with incoming group that they trust and that demonstrate what best is, right? Like we are always asking ourselves a question and pushing out what is best, what is, what does best look like.

Um, and, and so we surround ourselves with people. That demonstrate what best looks like and in that relationships are formed. And I [00:08:00] can, I can say that I had heard a, a conversation earlier this week where a GC selection was being discussed, and, well, if this guy is gonna be on the team, that's the team we're gonna go with, right?

Because of a relationship, past relationship that was forged on a, on a previous project. And there's trust built in that. So it's relationship and trust is, is how that community, I believe your question was how is that community built in those stressful situations? And I think that that's a lot of what it is, is trust and relationship.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: if I'm hearing you correctly, it's all about setting up that team to do a project with trusted relationships. Right. But I think also a lot of that has to do with the clients that you select as well. Right.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Absolutely.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: and, and I

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: I.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: that you guys have grown, had like meteoric growth from before the pandemic to now through the pandemic to where we are now.

Um, a lot of growth through acquisition also, uh, finding [00:09:00] new clients, new new projects to work on. as much as it, as important it as it is to set up the right team to execute the project, how important is it finding a similar, I don't know, a client with a similar mindset? Like how do you curate that?

Like imagine that was the dinner and you, you know, you had to all these different owners, a spectrum of owners in front of you, and how do you determine like which one. are the best fit for you at Cumming Group?

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: I think for us, and you're right, we've grown significantly and a lot of that is through organic growth, right? Like we, um, have a huge repeat business percentage. Um, and, and so our organic growth is, is massive. And part of that is, like you said, picking the right ownership groups. And I think for us it's.

Finding a group that appreciates and values our services and [00:10:00] what we do, and wants to find a partner that will grow alongside them and with them. So you're not looking at, obviously we love the one-off projects, but our real, um, passion and what we're really looking for are ownership groups where we can do a project with them, forge a relationship, build that trust, and then we grow alongside them.

So as they're growing as a, as an ownership group, we're, we're right there with them and helping guide them and partnering with them along the way.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: okay, so now this is where I, you taught me something new in speaking, before we had this b before we started the recording, I've, I know that there are owner reps, there's owner, owner rep groups that are acting as a fiduciary for the owner as an outsourced kind of of their organization to deliver a project.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: You're, you're looking at a project as an owner. [00:11:00] Um, then there are project manager, project management groups that might not be necessarily be an owner's rep, but as an owner's rep you have functionality of management. A whole suite of other construction management, quantity, surveying, everything that you can imagine as an owner's rep. but then you brought up this idea of being a, or not an idea. It's a, it's a thing which I didn't know about 'cause I don't know a lot of things, but it's A-P-M-O-A project management office.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: If you could kind of explode those different things

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Sure,

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: and get to why being a PMO is like your ideal role in, in a project or with a client.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: sure. And PMO in hospitality is, uh, the right language and not a little bit the right language, but I'll explain what it is and what I mean. Um, so for us owners' representative. Um, is a [00:12:00] representative of the ownership that controls cost, schedule, and risks, right? Mitigates risk. And for us, it's not one, it's not a, it's not a one person does it all right?

Like an ownership group. You have an accounting team and you have your development team, and you have like, you have the different buckets within any organization. So for us, an owner's representative is not one person that covers that entire bucket. It's a suite of services, right? So we have our project managers who run the day-to-day.

We have our cost managers who are often also quantity surveyors. Um, we have our scheduling team, uh, and then we also have another suite of services that kind of. Can sit within owners, the owner representative definition, but really kind of sit outside of it, which is dispute resolution and energy and sustainability.

Um, [00:13:00] and so if you break that down further, a project manager can, can be a construction manager who's just boots on the ground running a project during construction, is overseeing a smaller project and where he's not, um, pumping out or, or offering real cost estimates in the way that our cost guys would, but is just more of a general overseer.

if you take that to a higher level, if you take owner representative up a notch, we can do program management where a company, for instance, we had in hospitality, we have a group in Europe where we are overseeing. Their entire, any project that comes up for them, they put us on, right. We're their go-to.

We have a great relationship. This form has formed over many, many years, and we do each of their projects, take it to another client here in the US and we have what we say is A PMO or what I call A [00:14:00] PMO, and that is we, we are embedded in their design and construction team. We are essentially their design and construction team.

So we are working hand in hand with their financial guys who are looking at, um, their five, 10 year runway of CapEx programs, any acquisitions they're making, any future plans. We are helping them and looking at that alongside them. We're putting best practices in place across their entire portfolio.

We're even putting templates in place across their deliverable templates so that if. We aren't the third party owner's representative on a single project, and somebody else might be, their processes are aligned with what our client expects, right? Like we are putting those processes and stage gates in place for them.

And so while we are [00:15:00] delivering a lot of their projects, we're not delivering all of 'em, but we have oversight and we're making sure that their assets and their portfolio, um, is being run in a way that is, um, that aligns with their expectations across the board.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: I, I, I think earlier you said something to the effect that like, look, we'll love, we love doing the one-off project, but we really want to build this community and relationship to get to that PMO type relationship where you're really, as you said there, the outsource design and construction team.

Right.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Right.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: being a part of it and

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Forward, seeing what their, their capital needs are. Capital expenditures are over the next five to 10 years, so there might be a hotel ownership group. Or a real estate ownership group that has a segment dedicated to hospitality. Um, walk us through like a [00:16:00] great example and you don't have to use names or anything 'cause I respecting that, but where you do that one project as coming group and then they're like, oh wow, this has been a great experience and let's try and do more.

And then you, you're trying, 'cause there's like, you could set up a master service agreement to just third party project

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Right.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: But this is like, that idea of A PMO is really interesting to me because to start with that one project and you delight your client, how does that give us an example of like how that grows and how they slowly, that community and trust and all those things that we said about that redbird dinner kind of grow to where you're like, oh wow.

Okay. Now we are their outsourced, um, design and construction team.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Okay. Yeah. So I can,

I can tell you a, a, an example or a couple of examples of where that conversation is happening currently. Uh, I'll give one example and I'm not gonna say names 'cause obviously we are under [00:17:00] strict confidentiality agreements and, and, you know, trust agreements.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Got it.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: let's take one client where we started on a project several years ago.

In Florida. And, uh, the project has grown and grown and grown and we've grown with it and grown with the client and have faced many hurdles in the project from all sorts of hurdles and have navigated those waters with the client. And our client then moved us and hired us for a project in the central region and where the project was having a lot of issues and, and we are right sighting that project, take it a step further, and the client realizes that they are, um, they're growing really fast, they are well funded, they want to continue growing really fast, but they don't have the internal staff to manage that.

So the [00:18:00] discussion becomes, with a lot of these groups is, and, and it's a lot of family office too, right? You see it a lot in family office, not just. The, you know, the institutional or, or, or our other ownership groups? they are,

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: on the, the family office side is actually probably, this is probably a really good fit.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Like as allocators of capital, they wanna keep their team super, super lean. As,

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Correct.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Really institutional, um, larger organizations usually have to build out infrastructure within it.

Ah,

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Because, you know, you have to find people in all these places, and we are, that's what we do. You know, we're a, we're a large, we're the largest, um, pure play project management owner, uh, owner representative group in the country. So we have offices all over the place. We have people all over the place, and so they don't have to go [00:19:00] looking for people.

If they, if they need someone tomorrow, we can help them source it. We have that infrastructure in place and, and they're not also having to carry the costs and the risks of, you know, hiring someone in a state like California where you, you can't, it's hard to let somebody go, right. If it's not working out, you know, they can just tell us and we'll deal with it.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: So then, so that's a, a situation where you've kind of evolved together. They're growing, growing for them, servicing them, you're delighting them along the way, and then it's like, okay, PMO or whatever, um, let's, let's really establish this. And we've already had the trusted relationship. Now let us be your outsourced owner

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: design. Right? Right. So now we, the conversation turns to, are they, do they wanna build that infrastructure within their office or do they wanna outsource it? And outsourcing. What does that mean? Does that just mean that we will take on all of their projects and [00:20:00] have that MSA? Does it mean that we are going to put best practices in place for them across their entire portfolio so that if we're not on a specific project, they still know that, that they have the correct processes in place so their projects don't kind of get misguided?

Again, like, like in the central region, I mean, we go as far as Dash, we, we create dashboards. We have a technology team that can create a full on dashboard that shows, say you have 50 projects, right? Or a thousand projects or 10 projects. The project managers, the local project and cost managers will work within Procore, whatever program, Excel, whatever program they're working in, and we just make sure that their templates are set up.

Correctly, uh, and in line with what we're the information we're pulling and we're pulling that information on a daily basis into our dashboard so that then [00:21:00] that office, that ownership group can see what's happening on any given project. And depending on how much, you know, obviously it's a paid service, so how much, how, however much they wanna pay for it, it can get down to the decision maker that's causing the schedule delay by not approving something, a change order.

Say a change order isn't being, isn't being, um, signed off on who's not signing off on it. And then we can go to that person and say, why.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: So I'm very intrigued by this idea of like this institutional, where they may have this infrastructure built in. And then the family office, they're both allocators of capital. They are both in many different assets. And in the real estate world, a segment of that would be hospitality, which is where. Where you and Cuming group would be working? Um, I find in my experience with family offices and people that I know who have family offices, [00:22:00] hotels are very sexy, right? And they have experience and, uh, many family offices, they might not treat it as a pure real estate play. Like there's some extra passion involved in there and they want to have like a fingerprint on what the hotel will be if it's an office building or a multi-family, a little bit.

But hotels seem to like get a lot of owner input from the family office side of

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yeah. Yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: going, going back to the Redbird dinner where you set up this wonderful group of people and now take that as a project, setting up a project where you're, you are as the PMO are hiring designer, consultant, engineer, construction, I don't know everyone at the table.

Lawyers. Um, how do you. The family office may come in and say, oh, I wanna work with X, Y, z designer. They're amazing. They've never done a hotel report before. But I love this retail experience [00:23:00] they developed in Milan, and let's use them. Like, how do you, how do you balance that to set, make sure that the table is set, and obviously you wanna make them happy, but how do you make sure that they fit within everything?

Has that happened before?

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Oh, absolutely. It's happening on a project. Right now.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Okay. So how, why, like, how do you manage those expectations? Because obviously you, you, you have this trusted relationship. They like, you respect their vision, they're successful, they've had this experience, they wanna bring it, they want, like do you, how do you manage that? Because you're very good at setting the table, but when. There's a straggler. Let's say I wasn't invited and I just showed up. How do you, how do you manage the risk and manage the expectation for yourself?

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: look, I'm not on the technical side, so for me to answer that is a little outside of my, um, runway, let's say. I can, I can tell you what I have seen, um, in that. [00:24:00] You can partner there. I, I've seen it done a few different ways. You can partner the designer with another designer, right? So you have the, the design team, and then you have an a OR or someone that's coming in and acting almost as a consultant to that design team, right?

Um, I've seen it done. We have an in-house, uh, design team that comes from an architectural group. Uh, they all come from different architectural groups and they can help. They're not designing by any means. We, that's not what we do, but they can give input. The brand is also there helping guide programming and guiding all of that.

So again, you take a community and you build it. Here. Here's the kind of, um, the, the odd man out, right? And not hospitality, but let's build community around this person. And build 'em up [00:25:00] and it has to be finessed. I've seen it, you know, I've seen a lot of finesse around that. Um, but again, I'm not the technical person, so I don't wanna speak outta turn, but those saying that, those are things I have witnessed and, and how our guides do it,

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Well, I think it's also a testament to that relationship with that family office, with a client.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yeah,

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: You know, you, you're seeing them, you're hearing them. I assume it's a two-way street, and it's like, okay. We, we'll give you a shot like, we'll, it's your money. Like, obviously, but it, let me just draw upon our vast experience

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: absolutely. That's the first conversation.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: are the pitfalls that may happen.

These are the things that we like the, and again, that's all communication. I find that so many projects, and I guess as a third when you, when you do take on that first time working with someone as a third project, third party project manager, I envision like a tube of drawings slamming down on your desk, a bunch of [00:26:00] binders, and it's like, okay, get it done. Whereas in that PMO, like once you have the trust you're involved in, in all of those decisions and building and, and seeing, and hearing and setting that table, I love the table metaphor where even if there is the odd person out, it's like, okay, well let's, let's break bread first and like we're not just reacting.

We can be very proactive about how all of this is working.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yeah. And, and that's where we, those are the types of clients we really are looking for, where we can be more proactive and, and they really do value us for that, right? Uh, 'cause projects are the most successful. If the projects are the most successful, if they're set up from the very beginning, pre-development the correct way, and that's where we can really add value.

And, and so those are definitely the, the clients that we're looking for. And going back to the, the, the conversation around the kind of odd man out, you're right in saying that we [00:27:00] always start with setting expectations,

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: mm

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: right? Positive expectations or risks, right? Like we're gonna set those expectations from the very beginning and be completely transparent about it.

Um, and, and that's an important kind of add on to what I said before.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: If you look back at your portfolio, since you've been with Cumming and through all the organic growth and or just the repeat business growth, um, you guys and from, as an outsider looking, tend to play more in that luxury slice of the spectrum of hospitality. Um, was that always the case or did you, how did you guys steer to that place and why?

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: So, looking back, and again, I, I'm gonna give my personal perspective on this, not necessarily speaking on behalf of, you know, speaking [00:28:00] for coming group. Um, I've seen since I've been here, um, I see both luxury down to mid-range. Um, not as much mid-range, but but more on, and, and you're right, more on the luxury and ultra luxury.

I've seen us, and part of what I have done with my own business development in, in, and our team of business developers and, and working, um, with our seller doers is putting a strategy in place that aligns with the market, right?

Where we thrive and where our guys really, um, show the best and, and we just thrive in it. And so we have put a strategy together that aligns with that mindset. Does that make sense?

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Um, it does. And because that, that was like my leading question into going, you, you said [00:29:00] earlier, actually before we spoke, uh, you mentioned that. You have a lot of repeat business and but you, you've also grown very organically as well and you've also acquired a lot of companies over the past couple of years. Um, how as being the biggest at what you do in North America? Um, I don't know about globally, but you said in North America a few minutes ago. Right.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: we're very large globally, but we are in North America, the largest pure play owners representative group out there.

Speaker 2: Hey, everybody. We've been doing this podcast for over three years now, and one of the themes that consistently comes up is sustainability, and I'm just really proud to announce that our sponsor, Berman Fall Hospitality Group is the first within our hospitality industry to switch to sustainable and recyclable packaging, eliminating the use of styrofoam.

Please check out their impact page in the show notes for more [00:30:00] info.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Okay. as you're trying to meet and grow organically with new family offices and other institutional investors and to get to that dream state of PMO, right? It's like it's a small kind of pond to find those types of people. Right. And how do you. Differentiate yourself. 'cause some pe I'm sure some people will say, oh, but you're the, you're the biggest.

And how am I gonna get that? I don't know, white glove service or, or, or emotional, um, community, kind of trusted relationship going. But it seems to me that to get to that level of being a PMO, you, like, you can't be, be perceived as the biggest. Right. You ha you have to, in a way, be perceived as the people that could only develop these trusted relationships and make sure that the table is [00:31:00] set.

So how, when people, if people say, oh, you're too big. How do you manage that?

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: a project team is not big, right? And so our project teams are individual people. They're not a corporation. It's people like you and me

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Hmm.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Who have the backing and have the tools at their fingertips that other companies aren't gonna have because of our strength, right? They're gonna have a technology team that can build a dashboard for a client if they need it, right?

Where another group wouldn't be able to, but they're still individual people. They're still creating a community within that project and within that ownership group. Right. Like just, it doesn't matter how big a company is necessarily, it matters the people that you're interacting with within cummings group.

Um, we have, we're across all vertical sectors, right? Well, and we we're getting more and more into infrastructure in the us We're very much into it in UK and, and Europe. [00:32:00] Um,

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Oh yeah. Let me just interrupt there for a sec. So everyone, we're talking about hospitality mostly to this point, but coming group is like in all these different verticals, from commercial to residential, hospitality, industrial infrastructure,

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: K through 12, higher ed data center, advanced manufacturing life sciences, we're very diverse. Right.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: I have no idea about anything about. So,

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Me neither. And that's what's so great about, about us is like. Our hospitality people, our hospitality people, and our data center people are data center people. Right. They, they all have their expertise. And we're not trying to put a hospitality person onto a data center project. 'cause it's just the lang the, the language is different, right?

Like

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: comfortable data center though.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: it's gonna be a very fluffy data center, but the language is even different. So I wouldn't know how to go out and speak to a data center person. I have no idea. But that's, that's, you [00:33:00] know, where we also bring value. Um, and, but, but within coming group, our hospitality team here in the US is around 250 people and spread across the country.

They each have their own individual teams locally and they act as individual teams locally. Right? They are the mom and pop shop. In that region, but with a backing of technology people and economics team, energy and sustainability, people who they can call, pick up the phone and call at any given moment for advice.

Right. Or for help. And my job, part of my job internally is to make sure that those, um, communication threads are open and, um, people are communicating. We're celebrating each other. We're building a community. So you've got your mom and pop right. Offices, like I like to call 'em [00:34:00] like in la you know, we have our LA team who are go out together and, and are, are a family, right?

I mean, I hate to use the word family, but you know what I mean.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Yeah.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Um, community. Yeah, they're a community. And you have our New York community and you have our Denver and our Dallas and our Seattle and our Hawaii. And. So they each have their own individual communities and in somewhat culture. Right. And my part of my job is the hospitality people within those, within that, those different communities, I'm connecting and I'm making sure that they are connected and part of the hospitality family as well, or community as well.

So I have open communication channels. We're chatting together all the time, we're celebrating each other and celebrating wins. Celebrating, opening, celebrating milestones. Um, if someone is excited because they just had their first kid and they wanna announce it to everybody, they do, [00:35:00] you know, like it's, it's a very, um, the culture is very important.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Okay, so that actually circles back to having met other people of, of the, coming group team or around the world who, who worked for companies that were acquired. Um, the people that I've spoken to love it. Like,

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yes.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Fantastic, and now I can focus on doing what I'm best at and I have the support here. And, um. If you are looking, let's say, of that map of North America specifically, let, let's say that you're, you, you don't have as much coverage in that one place. Is that something that you, but there is a team that maybe is a competitor. When you say mom and pop, are those many, like, have you acquired many of those quote mom and pop teams within North America?

And if you do, and I know you're not on the acquisition team, is that more of a okay, we're in the same space, [00:36:00] looking for more support, or to exit or do whatever, um, but we need more, we want really good people there. How do you determine, like you said, the culture is the most important thing.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: we have a, a merger and acquisition team and, and they can speak to the metrics that they're looking for, right? Like, I, I, I can't speak to that. I, I don't actually know what they are. Um,

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Whatever they're doing, it's been working.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: what I do know is that in the project management world, in the development world, I know people at my competitors, right? I, I know people at all of my competitors and I know what they're saying about their office. If they love it there, if they don't. Like, we all know each other, we all know kind of what's going on.

Um, so we know culturally who's gonna fit and who's not. Right? Um, to some degree. And so culturally, I think it's a huge one for us to, to make sure that it is a cultural fit. I think [00:37:00] another really important part is entrepreneurial mindset across their team. It's not necessarily, it's looking for people who, who do want to grow and who do want, who are looking.

I'll give you an example. Joe Sat camp, uh, who sits in our Nashville office. He, um, came out of TRT holdings. He, he built that, he was part of building that. Their design and construction team, they own Omni. Um, he then moved to Nashville, went on on his own, and we acquired him in 2018, 2019.

When I asked him why, he said that he had clients that wanted him to grow with them and he didn't have the infrastructure to do it.

And so instead of building that and going through the growing pains himself, he found a company that he culturally aligned with that had the growth, same growth [00:38:00] mindset he did, that he could, felt like it was a good partnership. Right. Same kind of going down the same road, the same direction. And so we, um, acquired CapEx, his company, and he is now head of project management across the central and west regions.

Um, and his, the, the guys that came with him with CapEx have, are all still with us. And they each are doing what they dreamed of doing or what I hope what they, what they have wanted to grow into. Um, another example of that is Gavin Middleton. He came out of our layer acquisition in New York and he's now our global COO.

Um, Gavin ran design and construction at Starwood Capital before he joined Lair. Um, so there are many stories like that of where people wanted to grow and wanted that backing and that support, and to [00:39:00] be part of a, to be culturally aligned,

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Hmm.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Um, and, and goal related. Same, the same goal goals in mind, and, and I think it's worked well.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Yeah, I can speak to that for like,

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: I.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: my experience of having become a part of a bigger company in Berman, Falk. It's just been awesome. And I don't have to be the chef, the bottle washer, the cook knows chef and cook are the same chef, bottle washer, you know what I'm saying? The waiter, I don't have to do, I don't have to do everything.

And being part of a much bigger team, that, that is so much more aligned and like, having similar strategy, it's been a real unlock me. Um, and also for, for Berman Falk and, and it's kind of fun and interesting how all those things happen and come together. But I think part of it is just being open-minded,

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yeah,

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: and open to whatever, open to the journey.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: and we learn things from our acqui, from the, from the [00:40:00] people that come with our acquisitions and they learn from us. It's not a, you know, it, it, it's a, it is a partner. It's, it's a real relationship, right? It's not. We are looking to, we're, we're asking the, we're constantly asking the question, what does good look like?

Right. And, and Joe brought some of what good looks like with him and our next acquisition will do the same. Um, and, and so it's a constant conversation.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: One thing I'm really intrigued by with you is as being a guest lecturer at S Arc in, in la um, so obvious, like we've been talking about acquisition and grow and like setting the table of all these people and the odd man out, but I, I know that you're mentoring kids and, and young. The younger folk now that I've just turned 50.

But, um, I think that's also an important way to just grow organically and,

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: They come work for you or whether you just make a nice connection [00:41:00] and kind of plant these seeds and say, oh, you might wanna talk to this person or that person. If you want to get into hospitality and really introducing people to the hospitality world, wearing your hospitality hat. Tell us about that. Like how did, how did that happen for you and what are some of the really cool outcomes that you've seen from being a guest lecturer and mentoring, um, people at places like s and I'm sure others.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Well, it, it came through my personal life. Um, my much better half was chair of the board of s Ark for several years. And through him I met a lot of people at S Ark. A lot of professors and have become friends. They have become, they're, they'll be lifelong friends or they are lifelong friends. And you know, we, one of the, one of the professors we had, uh, her, her daughter's, um, quinceanera at our house.

I mean that's, you know, like we, we. We've [00:42:00] become friends through it. And she, um, she's an architect, uh, obviously at S Arc, but has her own architectural practice and, um, has worked with Cumming group before. Her practice has worked with Cumming group before and wanted to do a studio this past semester on hospitality and called me up and said, how do I do this?

So we connected, I connected her with, um, another friend, Channing Henry, who I think, you know, I think she was actually at that dinner. Yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Yeah.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: And Channing, um, is, runs the US for PKF. And Channing had a client here in LA who had a piece, who has a piece of land that he's developing a hotel on. And, um, worked with Florencia, uh, my friend at S Arc and built out a kind of a plan for how the kids would look at, I shouldn't say kids.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: I

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: would,

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: everyone.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: look at the piece of land and all of [00:43:00] the, everything that goes with development and design something. And they each were tasked with designing a hotel on this plot of land with all the different constraints that come with it. Not all of them, but they picked out several that they could, they could, um, use as, as the, um, guidelines for them.

' cause obviously you can't get into, you know, everything in a semester. Um, and part of the class was understanding development, understanding hospitality, understanding that Marriott doesn't own all of their properties. So when you see a Marriott, it, it's not owned by Marriott, who's it owned by? What does the financing look behind it?

Look like behind it. Um, why is, you know, why is the budget what it is? Where is it coming from? How are they finding it? Um, uh, you know, everything. Programming, um, brand standards, how to work with the [00:44:00] brand, all of it. So I worked with Channing and Florencia on, on that program and helped throughout the semester, not only teaching hospitality, what I call the basics of hospitality or hospitality 1 0 1, but, um, also critiquing and redlining their drawings and doing the final review at the end of the semester.

And it was really fun and I think the kids enjoyed it. Um, uh, the, the students enjoyed it.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Look, I don't know, like as I get older, everyone becomes a kid to

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: I know I hate it too, because I used to be that kid who hated to be called a kid, and I'm like, well, I'm old now, so.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: call me a kid. I love it.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Um, and, and I had two or three of them come up at the end of the semester and say, so I've fallen in love with hotels and hotel design, and can you introduce me to some [00:45:00] architecture firms that might be taking interns for the summer or might be looking to hire people just outta school?

And I did,

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Mm

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: I haven't, I don't know if they were hired because it's, you know, not that far back, that that process is still going on. But to me it was so rewarding seeing a bright, young face, really interested in what I do for a living

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: mm.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: In my industry and getting excited about the things I'm excited about.

You know, good design. And what makes a person want to stay in a hotel and the programming, and, you know, some of them will end up being interior designers or interior architects, right? Not, not design architects on the full scope, but seeing their faces light up and, and talking through, um, the [00:46:00] program and going, and then, and you, you could see light bulbs going off, right?

You could, and you could see the excitement. And then the next class, they'd come back and you could tell they had worked like through the night to get it done and to kind of get what their vision was out there. And that was really cool to see.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Yeah, I, I, I've said this a lot through here. One of the, get a lot of really incredible feedback from just interviewing great people like yourself, and over the past, I don't know, four years, but the most rewarding feedback are from, I'm gonna call 'em kids in college who are in design school or just out of college.

Um, young professionals, kids, um, who. Didn't even know that hospitality design in that world exists, and whe and whether it exists not just as a designer or an architect, but management owners, rep finance, the, they, they just don't [00:47:00] know. And, and the feedback that I get from them, and it's definitely more than three times a month and it's probably, it's, it's just often, and I, I love them because I get and like, oh, I, I was thinking about this.

Can you introduce me to So andSo or any ideas on who I should talk to, to, to be an engineer? I was like, I don't know any engineers, but I can introduce you to someone who knows the engineers or a project manager or design or, or whatever. Or I didn't know, Hey, I'm studying design. I didn't know that I could get into business development or do all of these other things or, and it just shows that there's no. Straight line, right? It's if, if you're open and open to being invited to sit at that table that you invited me to sit at, it just kind of puts you on a, a different path.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Absolutely.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: And I love the impact that this podcast has with those people. also maybe even in the middle stage of their career, they're like, oh [00:48:00] my God, I've been down, like boards or coming up with, I don't know, doing graphics or branding, and I want to get into this part of the industry.

And, and then they do it. And then, and then you. If, if, and when I ever see them in person, they're like, oh my God, thank you. I had no, and I'm like, Ugh, you just made

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Like it's amazing.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: yeah. And, and I think it's on us. The onus is on us as an industry, right. To spread the word and to mentor those young adults and to show them what's available or at least put 'em on a path where they can figure it out. Right. And, and for a lot of kids in architecture school, there are obviously schools where they have sector driven classes, but a lot of it, they just have no idea.

They don't know they're being taught architecture. But you start throwing in programming for a hotel and, hey, [00:49:00] is this a pet friendly hotel or a not pet friendly hotel? And how are you dealing with those pets? You know, their minds start going and you can see the creativity start to just flow and it's really cool to see.

But, but that has to come from us.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Yeah. Well, okay, so on one aspect, there's that mentoring at at S Arc, but then I've also been a big believer in just. Getting involved in many industry groups or

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: can. I mean, we still have to do our jobs, but, um, in any way so many of these industry groups, of them are volunteer based, um, many of them and the ones that aren't, are helping really drive and shape policy and, and, and like help make all of our lives better, um, through, through navigating like the big leviathan of whatever government is. Um, but really you get out of it what you put [00:50:00] into it. And oftentimes, like a HLA for instance, um, they do so much for our industry that many of us don't even know about. And like, how did, did you say yes to that and then start helping out there?

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: I live in Los Angeles. Let's just go ahead and say that we're, um, our industry right now is really not being welcomed in, in a sense, by our civic leaders, right, by our gover, not civic, by our government leaders. Um, and I think it's important, and I saw what a HLA has been doing over the past few years to try to help that, um, relationship.

And to me, I can use my voice in a positive and constructive way. And so I, uh, I [00:51:00] wanted to align myself with a group that was compassionate and empathetic to the world at hand, and also trying to help our communities. And I found that in a HLA, um. And it's, it is a new, a newish relationship for me. And I, I hope that it continues to grow, but I do think that, um, you know, getting out there and, and helping in any way you can, um, whether it's industry or in my personal life, I, um, you know, that I have multiple sclerosis.

So I'm, I also am a big advocate with MS. Society and helping my commu my MS community. And I think that that just happens to be where I like to live is, is in that kind of, how can I help, right? That kind of, how can I help mentality? And, um, I love la you know, I, I go to, [00:52:00] um, I two out of seven weeknight during the summer.

I'm at the Hollywood Bowl. I go to Musso and Frank's, which is one of the oldest restaurants in town, I'm there every Tuesday night. You know, I love our city. There's the Dodgers. I have, um, I'm at every single Rams game. Um, we have a great city and I want my two communities, my, the community I live in and my industry community to adore each other and to work well together, right.

And all aspects of it. And so why not get in there and be part of the conversation?

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Agreed. And I think that that's also really important for everyone listening. There are always opportunities to get involved

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: whether it's volunteer organizations, mentoring younger kids, um, kids again, um, I, I've earned that. I've earned that. Um. [00:53:00] And also just industry groups where, you know, oftentimes they're, they're operating on a shoestring and they could use the extra help and it's not like a full-time job or anything.

I, I, I dunno, I always believe that everyone has 5% of their time that they can devote to making their communities better.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: It's just a matter of doing it and finding it and then just being open and saying yes. And I'm sure a lot of those things for you it just happened by saying, yeah, I'll try that.

Yeah, I'll do that without an outcome in mind. You're just like,

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: I love that idea, how you made your hands come together. You want your community where you live and your industry community to adore each other.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yeah.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: I think that that's really powerful and, but that coming together is not gonna happen without a passion you have.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Yeah. And, and, [00:54:00] um, you know, what I do as far as advocacy, is my own personal thing, right? Like it's personal to me and it's, you know, I feel supported in a lot of ways throughout my life in, in doing it. Um, and I think that everybody can participate in their community or participate in the industry or mentoring, whatever, in their own personal way, right?

It doesn't, there's no prescription for it. There's no you must or you should or anything like that. You know, some companies are like, okay, sure, but it's not gonna be part of us. Like some are more adopting of it. It, it's a very personal, it has to be personal. Like it, it has to be personal for it to really work.

And, and for me it is personal. I was a, um, I was a casa for many years, which is a court court appointed special advocate, within the foster care system. I'm no longer doing it because there was real burnout, emotional burnout there.

Oh,

Um, [00:55:00] but it, um, opened my eyes, right? Like it opened my eyes to what, to the world that I, to a world that I didn't know.

And, and, um, it made me want to mentor kids. It made me, um, want to be part of a bigger conversation. but it was personal to me. It had nothing to do with our industry. It had nothing to do with la it had to do with kids for me at the time, at the time, I really wanted to advocate for, for children. Um, but it did open other my eyes to other avenues that I wanted to enter into.

Once I got that, that emotional burnout hit.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Yeah, well I think that's one of the reasons why I've been drawn to you and this, that idea of building community, it's

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Passionate about and helping out our industry and our communities where we are and bringing everyone together. Um, and as a testament to [00:56:00] that, just going full circle back to that table you set, um, and inviting such a great, vibrant group of incredible people. Um, I just wanna say, and I know I say this to you every single time I see you, but like, thank you. That was freaking awesome. And the more tables that any and all of us can set in all of our lives. Just for our communities and our industries and the what we do and the why we do it and bringing all that together.

Um, I think Aggie's just been a great example of that for me. And I just wanna say thank you for being on here with me and all of our listeners. And if people wanted to learn more about you or connect with you, Aggie or Cumming, like what's the best way for that to happen?

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Um, I would love for folks to reach out. You can reach out to me directly through my email or look at our website at cumminggroup.com. Um, but yeah, any any way you wanna reach out LinkedIn, feel free.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: Great. And we'll be sure to put all of that in the show notes. [00:57:00] Um, but Aggie, thank you. Thank you for

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Thank you.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: With all of us and our listeners. And like I've really enjoyed this tremendously and I know it's gonna impact someone out there where we can bring industry community and set that perfect table.

So thank you.

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Well, thank you for being part of my community, Dan.

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: You're very welcome. Most welcome from the heart and

aggie-zamir_1_07-17-2025_091953: Alright,

dan-ryan--he-him-_5_07-17-2025_121954: else. Thank you for listening. If this has changed your idea about setting the table or creating community, or just drilling into our industry a bit more, you think someone could benefit from this, please share it. Don't forget to like and subscribe. All this information will be in the show notes and thank you. Thank you. Thank you.