Defining Hospitality

DH - Aimee Sanborn
===

Speaker: [00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.

This podcast is sponsored by Berman Fall Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Today's guest is an experienced architect with 20 years of experience. She is a i a and NCARB certified, and she has a special interest and passion for adaptive reuse. She is the Senior Vice President of Architecture at Premier. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome Aimee Sanborn. Welcome, Aimee.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Hi, Dan. It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: It's so good for you to be here and I'm very intrigued. [00:01:00] Premier, so much so that you are the second person defining hospitality from Premier. The first being your CEO Hector Sanchez. And what I am most intrigued by with your company is how you are vertically integrated. you own, you design, you develop all under one roof, and there's not very many like you. Do that really, really well. Um, so I wanna dig into that because I'm very, um, curious about at what point does a company like that decide to integrated? Um, also of our most popular. Podcasts have been, when we speak with others about adaptive reuse, and I know that that is a tremendous passion of yours.

So for all of you, architects and designers listening who love the challenge of adaptive reuse, Aimee is here. us know. Let us know why she's so passionate about it, [00:02:00] because I love working on them too. But from my experience as a vendor, they always take so darn long because there's always a lot of gremlins lurking around which delays overall project.

So I find the people that I've interviewed that really, really love adaptive reuse are seem to be like puzzle masters. Um, and a lot of people, I would say the vast majority of people don't like working on them because of all the, all of the gremlins that lurk around the corners. Do you think that's a fair assessment?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Absolutely. I mean, you have to do so much due diligence within the Adaptive Reuse Project. Um, it's really a fun to figure out every building it own unique challenge. Um.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Um, what do you think in your. Life has, like what experience really was your first experience with adaptive reuse and what is like the, the gravitational [00:03:00] pull that pulls you there?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yes. My goodness. Well, I, um, graduated from grad school in 2005 and, um, landed in Dallas. I had moved from Tampa to Dallas and I was just very fortunate to move into downtown Dallas at a time when. Um, so many buildings were abandoned, right? There was very low residential occupancy in Dallas. I think there were maybe 800 residents downtown.

And the firm that I went to, you know, we were just very involved in the rehabilitation and of downtown, and, um, began to convert a lot of office. Buildings into residential and hospitality. And downtown, especially downtown, uh, Dallas, Inc. You know, we're just major players in this initiative and, you know, it really evolved over the subsequent 20 years.

Uh, and so today I believe there's like 15,000 people who live downtown in Dallas. It's even difficult to find a project, um, you know, to, [00:04:00] uh, rehabilitate and, um. Of the projects that I think, you know, I had touched 20 years ago are now, uh, being renovated again.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: That's always something that I love and hate

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Right?

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: cycle, because I'm like, oof, that means I'm getting old.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Absolutely. Yeah. Two years from being myself, so.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: And usually I, I call it like the turn of the zodiac because it's like every 12 years is like the new. The new Zodiac or you get back to Dragon or Pig or whatever it is. Um, oh no, Zodiac, that that's more Chinese, but there's only, there's 12 of them. Also, it's a universal thing. Um, but I'm always amazed excited, but also a little depressed when I make the cycle. Um, when you think, okay, so another thing that you said there that I'm really intrigued by. Dallas, been there many, many times.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yes.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: I'm shocked that. In 2005, there were only [00:05:00] 800 residents

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: living downtown and now there's 15,000. And I know a lot of that had to do with some addition of some museums, sports teams, like a real downtown, I don't know, reinvigoration. Um, but

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: The Arts district was really,

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: is?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: yeah, I mean I think there were just so many initiatives in downtown. The arts district is the largest contiguous arts district in the United States, so I think that was a huge success and brought a lot of new buildings, a lot of density, you know, a lot of office to downtown.

Um, you know, I think there is a great stock of historic projects. And what was really instrumental to the success of those projects is the historic tax credit. The historic tax credit for taxes, I believe, was implemented in 2014, but the federal tax credit had been in place and. You know, in combination state and federal, it's a 45% of your qualified [00:06:00] rehabilitation expenses.

And I think that that was certainly a big driver and impetus to having a lot of the historic buildings be adapted to other uses and. Office buildings. Right. And as you know, with office we had a major, you know, boom in the eighties with the oil industry. And so there were several large scale million square foot plus office buildings that were constructed at that time.

Um, and then post COVID, you know, there's a lot of those buildings that are now available.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: So one of the big ones that you worked on is the national.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yes.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: And that, and there was some superlative associated with that, and I don't, I want to fact check myself, but it's the second or third or second biggest adaptive reuse in the history of the United States.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: I believe that's correct. It's either second or third. I was doing a little bit of research trying to determine that, but it is 1.5 million square feet

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: just call

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: and

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: It's a Okay, No one's.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: let's do it.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: it's the second [00:07:00] largest. It's the second largest. There's no rules in podcasting, so let's just call it the second largest. We won't call it the first, the biggest, but I'm, I am curious, what do you think the biggest was?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Oh my goodness. I think it's in Chicago and I, I can't remember the name of it right now.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Okay.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: It's, I believe it's just over 2 million square feet.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Okay, so you're definitely the second because you were at 2 million.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: This one is 1.5.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: 1.5, almost 2 million.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yes.

Almost.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: like, I'm stretching a little bit there,

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yes.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: but regardless, you're the second largest adaptive reuse in the history of the United States. Okay. So for all the listeners, whether you've, you're the listener who likes working on adaptive reuse projects or. Detests working on adaptive reuse projects because of all the gremlins and surprises. Um, one of the things that's really important to know on these super large scale adaptive reuse, there's a commercial [00:08:00] component like office. There's usually a residential, there's a hospitality. There could be some other, uh, public arts, um, segment of it. I'm sure I'm missing some more, but there's a tremendous, a lot of amount of programming that goes into these. Um, and what I'm curious with you, especially coming over to Premier, how does hospitality, well first of all, what does hospitality mean to you? How do you define it? Obviously it's the name of the show, but then how does that thread of hospitality inform how everything within that Master plan, adaptive reuse, orchestrates

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: So, right. Yeah. I think the branding is so integral to that and really defining and tying together the entirety of the building. Every use, you know, within a vertically integrated mixed use. So I think the hotel component really sets the stage for the entirety of the project. Um, and that identity needs to be carried throughout.

Um, but, you know, hospitality, to me, it's [00:09:00] about making people feel connected, you know, to a place, to a story, and really to a bespoke experience. Um, when it comes to historic buildings, you know, it's about bringing new life to the spaces in a way that reflects their past, what makes them feel fresh, uh, and, and welcoming.

You know, it's about thoughtful adaptation and I think that that's really key. It's really taking the building for what it is, celebrating it for what it is, and, you know, celebrating what made it special in the first place while adapting it. So purposeful preservation.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: And if you were to use the national as an example,

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yeah.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: what do you think about that development best personifies that idea of hospitality?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Oh goodness. Um, you know, it is such a unique experience. It is a full city block within downtown Dallas, and, uh, that block was completely defunct and it had been, um, derelict for, I believe. Five, [00:10:00] 10 years. And the ability to reinvigorate that, you know, with life and make it welcoming, not just to the guests, but to the public, I think is just so key.

And you know, it was really a curated experience that really capitalized on the architecture of the building. The architect was George Dah and Thomas Stanley, and very prominent architect in Dallas. He had such a prolific career over, I wanna say 60 years. And, um, that building just has such a great aesthetic.

You know, it's white marble, it has this, um, pinstripe exterior curtain wall, and it was indicative of a men's suit, right? And it had a very mass. Skill and aesthetic. And so when Thompson was brought in by the developer taught interest and know who really had a great vision for the building, um, but I thought that that was such a great symbiotic brand, you know, for the building because it was very masculine.

Um, and it really celebrated kind of this mid-century [00:11:00] aesthetic. Um, and then we really kind of introduced some very feminine kind of detailing onto the interior, but it just worked. And then, you know, that identity, uh, was really carried through the full project, um, with the architecture and ID team and the procurement.

And I thought it just was a really consistent delivery. Um, you know, and aesthetic throughout. So it really just told a story and that story was crafted, um, you know, by the ID team. Gail Mall led the ID team, who's was our VP when we were at our previous firm. That project was completed, uh, while we were both at our previous firm, and she is now over here as well.

Um, so she's just a great storyteller and I thought it was just a tremendous, uh, curation of that story and ever use within the building.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Wonderful. Shout out to Gail. Um, I've, so worked a little bit and have some partnerships, um, in the hotel development side of things, [00:12:00] what I found just from clients and other projects I'm involved in, um, you wanna buy a property, well, you want to make a financial performer that shows. an 18, 20 plus percent IRR to all the investors that come in to do it. And oftentimes there's very little margin for error in those types of standard repositions or new developments. The tax credit that you mentioned earlier, which I, I think was like 45% combined. What gives you a margin of safety in those performas to be able to hit those IRRs for those gremlins or surprises that might lurk around the corner.

Because as, as much due diligence as you do, you're still gonna find some crazy things that need to be done. Um, so like for me, who's an idiot, but like a fan of hospitality and I [00:13:00] see some of these struggles that my clients and other. Interest that I have going through like, do you like approach a project like this?

And is it safe to say that those tax credits not only boost recurrence, but also act as a margin of safety?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Absolutely. And you know, the cost of these projects is so difficult, you know, to make pencil. Um, you know, several of the projects that I've worked on and that Premier has worked on, you know, it really is a complicated cap stack including, you know, the historic tax credits because these projects are so costly and have so many gremlins, like you said, I mean, you know, the asbestos.

Is one, right? Um, making sure that it has significant enough utilities. Right? Um, so there's always, you know, civil improvements, several utilities u usually get upgraded, uh, to meet the new demands of the new use. Um, you know, the building envelope [00:14:00] typically needs a lot of rebil rehabilitation. Um, we have one project right now, you know, where um, there's mold remediation.

Um, so. There are so many facets to it that make it so difficult, you know, to pencil that, you know, the tax credits are such a necessary piece. We're so fortunate to work in Texas because we do have a total of 45% tax credits, unlike several other states, um, that federal tax credit.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: In Texas, you eat asbestos for breakfast too, right?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: I think every building you have has some asbestos in it to be remediated, right? It's like step number one, okay, what are we doing here? You know, phase one immediately. Um, so, you know, I think it's so necessary. Um, but along with historic tax credit, you know, I think in order to make these projects pencil, um, you.

Do need additional incentives, you know, whether that be, um, tax increment, increment financing. Um, like, uh, there's a couple [00:15:00] programs out there nationally that we're looking at, like RIF and tia. Um, you know, there's Antico grants, there's city grants, but it really takes, you know, multiple layers to make these pencil.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: before we go into the multiple layers, you said Griff and Tia, I don't know what that

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Oh

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Can you like e explain that it, so one of the things that I've learned in having a lot of friends that are doing development and dabbling in it myself is that it's amazing how much capital is out there, different pools of capital looking to help. Achieve different outcomes, right? Whether it's providing housing, rehabilitating things, abating, asbestos, doing it like C PACE financing for sustainability. And it's just a matter of finding those pools and directing them to your cap stack. So does Griff and TIA

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: this is above my head. I'll leave this to the development team, but, um, they are in federal incentives, um, that came about, I believe [00:16:00] a few years ago, and they had to do with. You know, investing in projects that are close to mass transit, both of them have kind of a density and a mass transit requirement.

I think you have to be within half mile of a light rail, um, or a high speed rail. And so one of the projects that we're working on, um, you know. Kind meet some of criteria, so I think it is something that they continue to pursue, but

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: but actually that's really interesting because one of the things, you know, as we're all talking about, um, housing costs and, and bringing a.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: mm-hmm.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: residents to downtown areas, not just Dallas. Um, one of the things that I find solves so much is density.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: while so many people and, and neighborhoods are against density, it becomes this flywheel.

Once you start bringing density in, then all the light rail works [00:17:00] and you can extend it and there's less people on the road. And it just, it, it just makes for a better run, in my opinion. City and urban landscape.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: And you can think of, you know, a large scale adaptive use project, 1.52 million square feet. How do you take that down? Right? It has to be vertically integrated, mixed use, and the only way you're gonna support that many uses in a building on one city block is to be located, you know, in a very dense area that's very active and very successful.

I mean, I think that a, a successful tower could be a catalyst to generate more density on surrounding blocks, but it, it is a symbiotic relationship, right.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: When we spoke before, we, we recorded about a month ago. You referred to the national, I think as some, as a unicorn of some kind, as as a project.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yes.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: I know that you walked us through how hospitality and a narrative makes it a very special place, but why, why is the national such a [00:18:00] city redefining project that, that you call a unicorn?

Like what makes it a unicorn?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: I mean, I think what's so interesting about it, I mean, is it does occupy this entire city block, right? And, um, you know, it was just, it's so, uh, it's fascinating to me just the verticality of it, right? We have retail, we had this opportunity to introduce detail to the ground floor, um, and really reinvigorate that city block.

There had been nothing there for. Probably a decade. Right. And, um, there were several very successful retailers that are there. Lou Casey, um, uh, Chick-fil-A actually is, uh, a good prominent corner. Uh, and you know, then we had kind of common lobbies where the public, you know, could mingle the Thompson lobby.

Um, we were able to put in events. Space on the lower levels in the podium. Um, introduce a parking garage. Um, coming up to the, uh, upper deck, there was this massive amenity deck. It was 75,000 square [00:19:00] feet and we were trying to figure out how would we program this, right? and we were able to do amenity spaces there that were both shared by the luxury residential in Thompson Hotel.

Um, but there were so many fun little aspects to that, you know, deck and historic discoveries that we were able to really celebrate there. And then above that you have 218, um, residential, I'm sorry, 218 hotel units, 324, uh, residential units. Plus some penthouses as well as, uh, Monarch. Um, Monarch has been a very successful restaurant, uh, downtown.

I think it was started by a two star Michelin star chef. Um, and, you know, and that, that goes to the, uh, developers, you know, vision, right? I think it's, it's just very holistic approach. Um. I think the opportunity to develop a 1.5 million square feet, it's just so enticing and such a challenge. Um, and, you know, we're about to redevelop Rent Tower, which is across the street.

[00:20:00] It's 2 million square feet. And you know, I think Ashford's vision for it is exceptional. It's very exciting. Um, it. Going to be an even more daunting project with more uses, um, and, you know, a, a more difficult floor plate to contend with, right? It's, it's a wider footprint at 33,000 square feet per floor compared to the national, which was 19,000 square feet per floor.

Um, and, and so it does create a little bit more challenges and more opportunities.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Okay, so will that the number two spot from the national as far as adaptive reuse?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: It may take number one. I've gotta go back and look at those. Uh,

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Oh, so like really, because it could be more than, well if you add new square footage, does that count towards the adapter of reuse? If you're adding new square footage.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: let's.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Okay, good. So you're gonna have the number one and potentially number three going. Okay, [00:21:00] good. Um, you mentioned, you just used the word verticality and I want to loop back. how that works with Ashford and Premier and you guys, your company being vertically integrated. So I understand the verticality now better of an adapter, reuse, large format, master plan project. Um, how does that work and what's been your experience as far as how that relates to Ashford and then Premier?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Sure. Yeah. So, you know, Ashford is our parent company and there are two REITs associated with Ashford Ashford Trust, Andray Mar, and those REITs, I think Ashford owns about 90 hotels. Andray Mar, approximately 15. So basically Premier was born to support those projects, right? The renovation of all of the hotels, you know, that were in the re portfolio and we, uh, were formed about 30 years [00:22:00] ago.

Uh, but the company just evolves incredibly fast. Uh, it's been remarkable. I've only been here for about, uh, a year and 10 months, and it has been a fun and wild ride. Um, but. Premier has architecture, interior design, project management, procurement, uh, corporate engineering, uh, and development, you know, under our umbrella.

And we're 150 people in our office here. We're based in Dallas, Texas. Um, and it's just really interesting because, you know. The departments are not siloed, right? We're very well integrated. Um, you know, we work very well collaboratively together. There's a lot of amazing talent here. Um, and we're just growing our teams so rapidly, uh, and evolving, you know, towards the direction.

Of doing more ground up projects and more development projects.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Uh.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: So we started initially just doing kind of renovation pip work, uh, and now, and, and really [00:23:00] truly at first, just for Ashford. Um, but now we were just going through the revenue and we're doing 60% of our revenue is third party clients.

On the architectural side, and I think it's very close on the ID side as well. 40% is Ashford and we're just, you know, we're gaining a lot of momentum. Uh, and it's just, it's incredibly exciting. Both on the renovation, adaptive reuse side as well as ground up projects?

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: That's amazing. 60% is third party.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: That's correct. Yeah.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: No kidding. Because actually in a, in vertically integrated, having between Braymar and Ashford of over a hundred hotels, 105 plus, that to me is where at some point, I think an ownership group that has, know starting somewhere in the 50 to 70 I don't know, there's not many that have over a hundred. But at that, that's at the point I think where the scale makes sense to. Become vertically integrated because then you can staff the great team that [00:24:00] you have and that Hector is, you know, CEO of and, and collaborating altogether and not have to deal with the lumpiness of everything we do. Because like if you have 10 hotels, it gets very lumpy and then you, you can't really support the team that you have the entire time. Um, one of the things I found interesting about my conversation. With Hector from a while ago, and if you, if people haven't listened to that, I definitely suggest do. He comes from oil and gas, like he's, he was building like freaking oil platforms and I don't even know, crazy industrial, um, projects.

And to go from that to hospitality seems like so incredibly different. But really my takeaway from him was, it's really about. As it always is, shocker the people and collaborating and having a vision. So I'm, I'm curious how, you said that you [00:25:00] guys are very collaborative and not siloed. How do you physically, so many different channels,

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yeah.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: on a day-to-day basis?

Like how do you break through those departments and make those dotted lines work?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yeah, I, you know what? I, uh, it's a great question, but somehow it just flows naturally here, right? We're all on one floor. Uh, Gail's office is next to mine. Hector's office is just 10 doors down here. Um, the development team is adjacent to our office, so we really just are in the office and we're talking every day.

Um, you know, at times we're running across the office to go to talk to one person or another. But we're just very mingled, right? It's an open door policy. Um, I think it's a very welcoming, you know, environment to work in.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Mm

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: you know, we're very solutions driven. So if there is an issue, you know, Hector Franklin, um, you know, everybody on the team Johannes, they immediately just roll up their sleeves and they're like, how [00:26:00] do we solve this?

Right?

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: mm.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Um, everyone's willing to pitch in and figure it out. Uh, so I think it's really a mindset, you know, and, um, a cultural value that is just exed here. And, you know, that starts with Hector, right? Um, so it's, it's just a really cool place to be.

Speaker 2: Hey, everybody. We've been doing this podcast for over three years now, and one of the themes that consistently comes up is sustainability, and I'm just really proud to announce that our sponsor, Berman Fall Hospitality Group is the first within our hospitality industry to switch to sustainable and recyclable packaging, eliminating the use of styrofoam.

Please check out their impact page in the show notes for more info.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: I am glad you're really busy because one of the things I would say for our industry in the hospitality design world. far as renovating, repositioning, building new hotels, I'm saying that we've been in like a [00:27:00] five year recession since COVID, since

just after COVID, right. Once all that work. So it's really slowed down the, the number of projects is much, much, much less. Um, I also think um, my metaphor is like there's this lake of CapEx and new builds that is, is up here and. Waiting to get done and stuff is getting done from some PIP stuff here and there, et cetera, et cetera. But there's like a dam holding it back. And the dam could be interest rates, it could

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Of the election, the outcome of the election, tariff uncertainty to make things pencil out. Um. some point that dam has to break

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: sitting in your seat right now and looking at what you're looking at and doing 60% third party and all these cool, um, other projects, what is your take on that metaphor, number one and number two, what do you [00:28:00] think still needs to happen for that dam to start releasing some more water?

So we get out of this recession?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yes, absolutely. I mean, I do think interest rates right are a key factor here. I think that's the biggest factor that we hear about. I mean, it does seem to be a lot of

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Labor

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yes, labor costs, I mean. I don't know that we've seen the end of that. Right. Um, you know, one of the things that I find interesting is we do have a lot of clients who are looking to potentially switch to more modular construction because they fear, you know, labor shortages.

Um, and I do see that as. Likely going to occur on a few of our projects here that are multifamily or hospitality. We have one concept that we developed, uh, the first one's going into Tennessee and you know, we were studying how we would adapt, you know, that concept for other sites and potentially utilizing modular.

So I do think that that is one trend that we're going to see trend emerge out of this difficulty with potential labor shortages. [00:29:00] Um, but yes, I mean, I do think interest rates. You know, we do have quite a bit of ground up going on, and there seems to be. A lot of movement. Um, and it's, it's like very specific, you know, groups of clients, um, that are very aggressive right now.

I mean, they're scouring the country looking for, you know, sites, um, gearing up on prototypes, you know, to, um, place across the country. And it really is interesting the markets, um, because it is so. Diverse. I mean, there's a heavy concentration kind of in the southeast, you know, specifically Tennessee for us right now.

Um, you know, a lot of movement in Texas. Our development team is really focused on the Texas market, which I think is very exciting. We're very fortunate to be here. Um, and then, you know, we do also have a lot of development in California, uh, Colorado, um, you know, in terms of some of the third [00:30:00] party work.

So, you know, it, there really, there really hasn't been a specific market though

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Hmm.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: that we can pinpoint besides, besides Texas, you know, um, it's, it's so broad and it's multifamily and hospitality. Uh, and, you know, uh, some other, you know, miscellaneous projects, hospitality suites and other things.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: So I'm, I'm actually surprised, like I have seen modular construct modular hospitality projects happen, whether it's the entire building or elements of it, like the bathrooms, and I see it, it, it, it comes and fits and starts and then it. it's never really taken off, but to me it just seems like because you have scale and repetition in hotels, it should, I hate it when I use the word should, but I would think it would take place more often than it actually does.

What do you think, um, is making it seem more viable now, in your opinion, [00:31:00] and what do you think has held it back from more wide scale adaptation?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yeah, I think it's a great question. Yeah. I too have experienced that in my career where there's been fits of it. Right. Um, and we've gotten very excited about it at times and then backed off and really not utilized it, taken projects through DD and then backed out and unconventional construction. Um, I do think it is that potential labor shortage, um, you know, that, that is what I'm hearing.

Right. And just the cost of labor and, you know, being able to produce these very. Quickly, um, with a lot of precision, right? If you go visit some of the factories, they're really exceptional. It's so interesting. It's very robotic. Um, they really generate them quickly, very cost effectively. I think, you know, some of the projects where we've had some issues with it is, is that we're doing a lot of, you know, podium projects, right?

And, you know, I think that they thought it would be cost effective if it was truly, you know, five [00:32:00] stories of modular, not over a podium. Right. Some of the difficulty, two lies. And I have one client who's very intriguing because they've really done a lot of study about locations of various manufacturing plants and the, you know, radius around it and done a lot of cost analysis regarding shipping to specific sites.

And they even hone in on, you know, specific multifamily, you know, sites. You know, think areas where there is a need or where land's already zoned for multifamily. And I do think that's such a smart. Approach. Um, and I do think we are going to see more of it. You know, we are studying it for a few projects now.

Um, full modular versus like what you said, either just a kitchen or a bathroom, um, you know, and that has a, an adaptive reuse application, right? Where if you remove a segment of curtain wall or exterior, you know, skin, and you can, you know. Modular unit that is just a bathroom that's replicated on the OR kitchen and be able to [00:33:00] them.

And then there is also application for that in,

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Yeah, I found that. The challenge in that seems to be like the, with the older buildings, they tend to settle in interesting ways then as and designers want very little tolerance built in everything, they want it so

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: yeah.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: You have to really like over eight or 20 foot runs like account for some major changes in elevation, which causes some big gaps to emerge in other places. And, uh. Oftentimes I've, well, I've found that in a, in two or three instances, that those gaps become surprises when everything starts getting installed.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Uh,

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: And then that's a whole other gremlin. um, on the Ren tower, you said that the, floor plate is 33,000 square feet versus the national was how much?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: It was [00:34:00] 18 600.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Okay. So this is another interesting thing because obviously we're all reading about the office and commercial that's going on at the extreme Ries vacancy rates, and one of the challenges with converting the office buildings that are out there and not as occupied the

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yes.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: the footprint because the interior

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yeah.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: don't get light or you have to put plumbing or it just, they, they're real challenges. What are the. As you are approaching with your architect hat on Ren tower and and doubling the size of that footprint, how are you addressing those plumbing elevate? I don't even know all the things for that, the interior spaces.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Sure. Yeah. I mean, a lot of large scale office towers just present some huge challenges. Right. One of the things that's interesting though is we typically find that they're over elevated, right? Um, I mean the national had [00:35:00] I think 26 elevators, right? Various banks, and they are Toronto banks and you know, Renaissance Tower is the same, but that also creates an opportunity.

I think there's 20. I think there's 24 passenger elevators at Renaissance Tower. And then in addition we have freight elevators and jump elevators and. The opportunity that that provides though is the ability to allocate specific uses to specific elevator banks, you know, and that enables you to secure it at the ground floor, create designated lobbies, um, you know, prevents kind of cross, you know, circulation between uses.

Uh, if I'm buying, you know, a luxury condo, you know, I really don't wanna cross the public domain, right? When I go from my parking garage, you know, to the public condo lobby, I mean the condo lobby. Um, so there is a lot of opportunities with these large scale buildings that you typically would not have in small scale buildings, though.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: from a, I don't even know what to be like a community [00:36:00] board or local legislation perspective. are those organiza, I don't even know. Are those like organizations, whether it's a community board, a planning and zoning committee, or some other entity within the city or town, are they, are you finding that they're really open to. Converting office spaces into hotels or residential,

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yeah, I think so. Especially post, you know, COVID, right? There's so many buildings that are underutilized and you know, they just sit empty. So it's not creating a tax basis, you know, for the city. Um, it's just incredibly underutilized. So I think typically in Dallas I think has been very good in my experience.

Um, you know, with the. A HJ. Um, and some of the codes, you know, in Dallas are a little more flexible even for conversions than other locations. You know, that being said, you know, with the International Building code, when you change [00:37:00] a use, you know, you do trigger life safety, compliance and compliance with several other aspects of the code.

So there are a lot of challenges. As soon as you change the use from office to, you know, which is a be occupancy to. Assembly, um, which, you know, of course you have assembly loads, you know, in your hotel as with event spaces or food and beverage spaces. Um, you know, and then you have, you know, R one and R two, which is hotel and multifamily residential.

Um, so you are changing the occupancy whenever you move and convert, you know, from an office building into a hotel or multifamily residential. Uh, and I think the most challenges that we face typically are when we go to put, you know, event spaces, um, you know, ballrooms, right? Large scale event spaces, you know, within the body of a tower.

And, um, you know, you have all sorts of challenges, you know, with high rises. But specifically with the national and um, with [00:38:00] Renaissance Tower, they are super high rise because they're over 420 feet above grade. Right? The highest level of occupancy exceeds 420 feet. And so that creates another set of challenges, you know, on top of it just being high rise high.

Um, so just with assembly loads, you know, egress right? You, you typ typically only have, you know, two or three stairs to egress in an office building and you're increasing the occupancy. So you do have to add additional egress and structural reinforcing, 'cause you're going from, you know, a live load of, you know, 50 square feet with an office to a hundred square feet with an assembly load.

So there are several challenges to contend with, and that goes back to the additional costs that, you know, I. You know, you carry with an adaptive reuse project and why the projects are difficult to pencil.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: And aside from the engineering challenges of doing that, um, in converting a an office and increasing those loads, like you just [00:39:00] mentioned, are the local jurisdictions open to having there be larger assemblies and. And larger, um, I don't know, ballrooms, et cetera, et cetera, or, or they, do they think it will increase traffic and like what kind of pushback if they're not into these conversions, what kind of pushback would you typically get from a concerned community board or a planning and zoning

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: I think, you know, traffic is an interesting one. That is true. Depends on the jurisdiction, you know, um, downtown Dallas recently passed a, um, a rule that I think no additional parking is necessary, uh, in downtown, um, within. Specific districts, I believe, I think it has to do with, you know, density requirement, but they've always been very forgiving about parking quantities downtown.

For buildings that were older than I believe initially there was a role like be, they were built before in 1987, um, and then also for specific uses, but you. Do [00:40:00] re regardless, when you're adding parking spaces, you are adding traffic. And so traffic studies are typically, you know, required. Um, and, you know, it depends on, you know, the location.

Uh, but you can potentially have to study, uh, traffic for a wide radius. You know, it could be up to, you know, a half a mile. I've seen a half a mile. I think I saw a mile in one instance. So that is certainly a concern of the city. Um, you know, but life safety in general, right? I mean, life safety is, you know.

Our number one responsibility as architects and, um, you know, it, it does, we do have to ensure public safety, right? So it's really important that we study the building and we, um, look at. The placement of all the assembly loads and how we can contend with it. But there are options, right? You know, we've added additional stairs and projects.

We've looked at using occupancy, evac, elevators, um, you know, areas of refuge or horizontal, you know, assemblies, um, you know, to be able to assist in [00:41:00] egressing that occupancy load.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Okay. So, in your career, aside from asbestos, um, an adaptive reuse, what was the biggest OMG? How are we gonna deal with this Surprise you've, you've ever had and how did you, o how did you, uh. Did you have to like raise additional capital or did that, did that tax incentive give you a, a good margin of safety? Like how did you navigate that?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yeah. Yes. I mean, there were so many, but the largest one was when I was working on the national, um, the exterior facade. It was a white pentelic marble from the battlefields of marathon and Greece, and it was. It was so cool. It was so incredible. Right? And you really wanna preserve that. You're like, you know, we can't replace that in kind.

There's no replacing marble from the battlefields of marathon in Greece.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: That's

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: And it was delaminating from the building and we [00:42:00] were looking for a solution and no engineer would really like sign off on a blind concealed pin. And because it was a historic tax credit project, we were trying to preserve that marble and um.

And we weren't allowed because of the historic tax credits to show like a penny mechanism on the exterior of it. Right. And we were really trying to find a solution for this. And what we came up with is we worked with a company, I think it was Honeycomb and we. First of all, we laser scanned the entirety of the podium of the building, um, and took every measurement of every marble panel and then removed all the marble panels, sent them to China and sent them to Florida.

And they were veneered?

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: a panel while they were

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Oh, yes, there were several, several shattered panels. Just, I mean, just because they were so deteriorated.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: you know what that reminds me of? And I, they're coming out with a new history of the world, Mel Brooks movie. in, in the [00:43:00] first one, Moses came down with the 15, he had three tablets. I have the 15 and he dropped one. Oops. 10 commandments.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yeah, absolutely. But you know, the developer did right by this because it was a very costly, you know, expense,

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: hmm.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: it was the right thing to do and they saw it through. Um, but uh, each panel was veneered and then reapplied with epoxy to a honeycomb panel and mechanically rehung on the building in the same dimension.

Right,

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: backside of it.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: exactly. And. So if, if you look at before photos and after photos of that project, it's such a remarkable improvement. but um, you know, we pursued historic tax credits for that project, so state and national had to approve that and they actually were so pleased with the solution that we actually, I spoke at a couple conferences about that solution, um, with, um, Texas Historic Commission, so.

You know, I think, like we said, [00:44:00] where there's a will, there's a way. I mean, granted that was a costly expenditure, but it was the right thing to do and it really restored just the beauty of that building,

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: And did you have to recap beca after that? Did you have to recast the performa or raise additional capital or were you still within the margin of safety?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Oh, I can't recall.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Okay. Oh my God.

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: There was a, you know, an ample contingency, you know, on that project. But as you can imagine, I mean, there's so many things that come, you know, that surface that you have to contend with, um, that you were never planning on. So that was one of many things, you know.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Or it could just be like the British and go back to Greece and like, just steal all the battle of Mar or the, the, all the marble from the Battle of Marathon and put it in your, in your new museum downtown there like the Elgan marbles. Um, wow. Okay. And then actually on the contingency side. Is there a rule of thumb from, of [00:45:00] contingency percentage of overall budget on a new ground up development building versus a, um, an adaptive reuse or historic preservation?

aimee_1_07-31-2025_125449: Yeah, that's an excellent question too. I mean, we typically see kind of 5%, right? Although with adaptive reuse, I think we always recommend 12, I mean 10 to 12%, but I think it's rarely been carried, you know, just depending on the size of that project. Right. Um, you know, I, uh, with our team, like, you know, with Premier, we've done several historic projects and you know, I know there have been some very big.

Difficult surprises to contend with. Um, and, you know, I, I would love to go get those figures and send them over to you. Like what contingencies like we've carried on those projects. Um, because we have done, you know, some incredible difficult projects. Um, you know, LA P. New Orleans, uh, LA Meridian and downtown Fort [00:46:00] Worth, I know was a difficult one.

I know there was some structural, you know, repair that needed to be done there. That was a significant cost, you know, that too. Went through a massive abatement project, um, and then autograph collection in, uh, key West. Is really a truly stunning Spanish colonial revival building. Um, and you know, that one I know had significant repair and you know, have been battered by many hurricane.

dan-ryan_1_07-31-2025_135455: Yeah. Oh, I can't imagine. Oh yeah.

dan-ryan_2_07-31-2025_144643: are there any additional questions you wished I would've asked you?

aimee_2_07-31-2025_134636: I think

I would love to just briefly talk about, I was trying to think, um, through, you know, some of our projects, you know, and really what makes them special. Right. And capitalizing on that architecture. Um, you know, one of the things is, is that some of our projects were really designed by some spectacular architects like Philip Johnson.

and I think what's so fantastic about Premier's body of work on the adaptive [00:47:00] reuse side is, you know, the ability to really like, have rigorous preservation but yet adapt it. Um, and it's like this adaptive layering, right? Like just transforming and converting underutilized areas and really.

Celebrating the architecture for what it brings to the table. Um, you know, and I think, you know, we did that very well. Um, in the Notary for instance, um, the Notary is a classic revival, uh, building. It's located in Philadelphia's historic center, and it was initially designed by Philip Johnson. So you can imagine, right, you have this iconic architect with an iconic building, um, and you really wanna make sure it's preserved, you know, and I think.

You know what I love about adaptive reuse too is just the compatibility with the soft brands, right? Um, the flexibility to really create that story and celebrate aspects of the architecture, um, and just integrate it into the adaptation. Seamlessly, [00:48:00] you know, so that building really respect, all respected, all the architectural framework, um, and then just utilized it.

So you're, you're really not, you are really working with the building and you're not. It, you know, you're just looking for solutions, right? You're studying each space and determining what uses, uh, you know, and what brand criteria in terms of program programmatic elements would be situated best in each of those locations without having to manipulate the architecture.

Um. You know, I think we did that extremely well there. And then, you know, the autograph, another autograph is, uh, Laconia in Key West and we just completed that project and it's really one of my favorite projects. You know, it's a Spanish colonial, it's right on Duval Street. So very energetic street, very public facing, and.

You know, previously it was very closed off to the street and you know, I think we saw [00:49:00] the opportunity to really like, celebrate the Latin roots, you know, of Key West. Um, and also like really adapt the public facing areas, um, and really open it up. Uh, and so there's a, a new bar that was created there and it really captures, um, you know, this feel of like Hemingway, right?

Um, it's just very kind of whimsical and playful and it's just got this really great like Cuban heritage that's saturated, you know, in the lobby. And then a new little cafe that, um, is, uh, capitalizes on the Cuban, like dominoes. Um, and so this theme is kind of carried out, but each, what's fun about it is each space is so drastically unique in terms of the interior design, but it all tells the same consistent story,

dan-ryan_2_07-31-2025_144643: Hmm. Did you import six towed cats?

aimee_2_07-31-2025_134636: yet there's a few on the property, we just imported them from next door.

dan-ryan_2_07-31-2025_144643: Yeah, that's just the [00:50:00] weirdest thing, like six towed cats. I didn't know that was a thing. So cool. Um, well, Aimee, I mean, this has been just a fantastic conversation to talk about, just. A vertically integrated company, vertically integrated projects, um, and dig in a little bit more so I could learn.

Selfishly, I want to learn more about adaptive reuse, so I thank you for helping me out with that. Um, if people wanted to learn more about you or Premier, what's a good way for them to get involved or learn more?

aimee_2_07-31-2025_134636: Yes, you can go to, uh, www.premierpm.com or find me on LinkedIn.

dan-ryan_2_07-31-2025_144643: Awesome. Um, well, I wanted to take just a couple seconds to just say thank you. Thank you, thank you. I really enjoyed this conversation but yeah, thank you and, um. Thank you to all of our listeners. Without you, I wouldn't be learning about adaptive reuse and talking to amazing architects like Aimee, um, and vertical integration. Um, something I think we could use [00:51:00] more of. So thank you. And if this changed your idea on hospitality or how to deliver it or change it or adaptively reuse it, please pass this along to someone who you think could benefit or learn more.

We're all about impact, so thank you.