Defining Hospitality

DH - Spencer Levine
===

Speaker: [00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.

This podcast is sponsored by Berman Fall Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Today's guest is an architecture and landscape professional. With over 20 years of experience, he's developed a multitude of properties in the Western Hemisphere, some of the recents being the Mandarin Oriental Resorts and residences in Grand Cayman, zero Irving in New York City, and the Four Seasons Veil.

He's been an advisory board member for ULI New York and is on a mission to shape the future of the built environment. He's the [00:01:00] president of RAL, companies and affiliates. Ladies and gentlemen, Spencer Levine. Welcome Spencer

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Thank you so much for having me.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: joining us all the way from the downtown New York, right next to Wall Street.

It's good to see you.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: It's a pleasure. Thank you so much.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: I'm very excited to speak with you today, um, for many reasons. One, being a developer, two, if I look back over a lot of the older, uh, like some of the older projects in your portfolio, it seems to me that you've come in in distressed situations, like in market cycles. Um, and what was really surprising to me in our, in our conversations is that I often get this vision of, from like a Monty Python movie when there's distress, like the corporate Raiders, like the Wall Street buildings behind you start swinging out of offices like pirates, taking over, [00:02:00] uh, another company.

And, um. It's just not a really pleasant experience. But what was super surprising to me and where I'm super curious to learn from you and so our listeners can learn, is it seems like in talking to you, there's such a passion and appreciation for coming in in these difficult times, uh, and getting the whole team realigned and executing and delivering an amazing project.

And there's like such a, um, an opposite view to that pirate image in my head.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Very much

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Um, and I wanna learn more about that and I want our guests to learn about. That process and, and, and, and your kind of cycle, um, in your career and in your company's arc. Um, but before we get into that, and I think, I think this, your definition of hospitality will also help explain or untangle that confusion I have and also admiration.

So before we [00:03:00] get into it, Spencer, how do you define hospitality?

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: So in thinking through this, I was, I was thinking about the idea that hospitality and how it, how it resonates with me is my experience in developing hospitality. And, and from my standpoint, why I love developing hospitality projects and participating in hospitality projects is there's this tangible, very visual reaction.

There's a unique experience to everyone that walks into that space. Unlike some of the other programming that we work on, you know, we work across the board and residential, everything. Um, every user that comes into that hotel is a new person, new experience. Not every, but, you know, most, almost every accessing that is a, is a new experience. And you get this as a developer, you get this amazing experience to be able to see how people react to the work that you're delivering. So there's this, tangible reaction that you can feel as a [00:04:00] developer, and then that feeling, uh, and what hospitality and how it's resonating with that person is really, and, and what I, how I think it really into play is it's, it's, there's, there's a feeling that you've arrived at home.

It's, you know, obviously not necessarily your home, but everything's thought out. There's well-conceived spaces. The most successful hospitality is there's, they've addressed all your needs. They've, the, the spaces, the service, the experience, addresses your needs at that time, and everything's taken care of and thought out. Uh, and I, and that's what hospitality is to me. So that's why when I, when I speak about hospitality too, you'll find that I, it's not always just about hotels, it's, it's about hospitality resonates throughout all of our work, because hospitality is, this, to me, it is this. Process that has been thought out through the project and, and, and we've, and you've delivered all of, on all of these needs [00:05:00] or, um, or reactions at that time?

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: So thank you for that. And one of the things that I think. Has evolved with this podcast and also my thinking, my feelings of hospitality. This podcast started off as people who are owning, operating, developing, designing hotels, restaurants, bars, resorts. But it's grown into this other kind of entrepreneurial set and just other people who are hospitality adjacent.

I think like what you're saying is hospitality touches everything. It's, it's a core human function, right. To make others feel at home. Um, and, but I also think that our hos the hospitality you projects that you work on, and our hospitality industry has the opportunity to impact so many more people than a multi-family development, a single family home and office.

Because every night there's a new [00:06:00] leaseholder for a room. Right. And in a 200 room property at 80% occupancy, you're getting, I don't know what a hundred. I can't do the math right now 'cause my brain's not working. Um, but you have a lot of opportunities to create an impression and impact others. Um,

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: And I think as a professional involved in those projects, that's what makes them so special because you get to experience that. If, if you hang out in a lobby of one of your projects that you've worked on for, you know, 15 minutes at Prime Check-in time, you've got, you know, you might have as many as 30 or 50 new impressions of that space or that, that first, representation of the work that you've delivered.

And I think it's really a special feeling. You don't, you don't necessarily get that, with, with any other

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: just, I just fact check myself on the math there. It's basically, um, a [00:07:00] 160. New leases every night. If it's, it's a, if it's a one turnover, and if you multiply that by 365, it's 58,000. Let's say you, some people do multiple nights stays, let's just take it down to 40,000. You have 40,000 unique impressions that you can have.

And, and in this built environment that you're so passionate about to have those guests not only have an incredible experience or a moment, but then it's like, um, kind of like seeds of a dandelion. When you blow those, the dandelion, you know, it's like a diaspora of these people that go on. And, and I think hospitality more than other built environments has the ability to create legions of people with new experiences and a and a new way of thinking about interpersonal communication, about the built environment, about building and building lasting memories.

And so that's why I'm actually very. Excited that you [00:08:00] work on so many different types of real estate projects, but hospitality is one of your favorites.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Absolutely. The other interesting thing that of flows through hospitality is the idea that, um, I think as brands develop and as, as they, as properties get developed across the country, across the world, in different locations, there's a, a goal to be more authentic in your delivery.

Like, what are those spaces like, what is, what is, is that of the place? Or is it just any town USA?

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Um, and I think that's another way, you know, your, your statement about how hospitality has the ability to have such a greater impact. We can do that through our spaces, through our design, through our implementation and, and integrate that.

And I think hotels, restaurants, um, hospitality spaces be much. More authentic in their delivery of those [00:09:00] of the place. Because the uses of the place, it's not necessarily, you're not coming to that property to work in your office doing what you do. You're coming to that property to potentially stay there in a city to maybe do business or you're coming to that place to experience that place.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: So I think it's an interesting opportunity for us to do things that create these authentic and kind of really, unique experiences.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: in, as I'm hearing you speak, I'm, I'm envisioning a. A completed project where everyone's coming in, they're being inspired and kind of going out and there's a halo effect. Right.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Mm.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: But if you go back to like when you're brought into a project, right? Your company, RAL, has built a reputation for stepping in when things are complicated, um, and when other firms might walk away or be asked to leave, what makes you lean into those challenges and how do you bring your idea of hospitality [00:10:00] into the early stages of those projects?

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: if I go to kind of how we got started in this third party development world, how we, how, how that came about, um, leading up to the great financial crisis in 2008, uh, 2009, we had always focused really on our own development projects. And my first hospitality experience out of grad school was, I was working, we were developing the Capella Telluride, uh, the first Capella in North America. And we were

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: with

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: that with horse sch, schulze and

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: legend. Wow.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: And, and that was my first hospitality experience. And at the time I think I was probably a little immature and didn't realize the absolute legend that I was working with and learning from. Um, but I learned some really amazing things from him.

Like, one thing that I used constantly is that, service. Can usually overcome any shortcomings that you [00:11:00] have in a physical plant. And, know, don't let the one of his team members used to say all the time, don't let the perfect get in the way of the good.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: I love that one.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: the, because the service can really take it up to that perfect level. it really is very meaningful, especially when you're coming into projects that maybe, you know, aren't, aren't perfect. And there's, it's, it's gonna take a whole lot to get to that perfect. But we were set to open that, um, that project in, in February, 2009. The great financial crisis hit in 2008. And, uh, I was very young.

I was commuting from New York and, uh, learned, learned a lot about the hospitality process and learned that really, you know, you're, you're not just building something for the guests and you're not just building something for the brand, but you also have to be very responsive to the partners in the bank

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: What it does is it forces a certain amount of creativity because you've got [00:12:00] guardrails, you've got constraints from all these different directions. You want to deliver this perfect guest experience, but, and you want to respect the brand standards, but you've also got the realities of budget, schedule and all the requirements of your lenders and your partners. So it forces you to be really creative about how you deliver these projects. as we kinda worked our way through the great financial crisis, we had finished off our RAL projects, our portfolio projects, and we started getting calls from our 30 plus years of relationships prior to that from different banks and institutions who had projects or properties of all different food groups.

It wasn't just hospitality across the country. And at that time, we ended up getting involved in upwards of 36 projects across the country

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Wow.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: that. And some of them were very small and some of them were, you know, we need you to get engaged for two or three weeks to go figure out what, what is going on with [00:13:00] this loan that we placed in somewhere in the middle of America. was all to us, our greatest investment. It was, it was a realization that our greatest investment over 45 years was really, and, and my father who started the company, Robert always says this, his greatest investment over the 45 years has been in his people. And we realized we have this bench that can creatively problem solve, has no ego and just wants to deliver great projects. Um, you know, obviously when there are portfolio projects or when there're someone else's money, they have to work financially. in order for them to work financially, you gotta deliver them and you've gotta get there.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: So I, I'm, I'm very, I've been using the word bench for many years, and to me it means many things. It means people that are ready to, to ready to rock within the organization, but it's also, and I. You said this in our, in our alignment call, but it's all about the relationships and I, I think that's really what hospitality is.

And in that bench, to me [00:14:00] it's also like any professional sports team or college team or admissions to a, to any university. There's always a bench, right? There's always, who are you recruiting to be the backups to your bench? Not just as the organization, but also, um, key clients, influencers. They might not be the one decision maker, but you know, they, they can help herd all the cats to make a project come together.

Um, and I think now as people are just trying so many different vocations out, even within one industry, I think it's really important that all of us dedicate time. To build that bench and keep in touch with those relationships that at some point can step in and help lead whatever crisis or opportunity that we may be facing.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: I I think you bring up a really interesting point too [00:15:00] about the, everyone trying out all these different vocations. One of the, one of the greatest things that I think I've learned in the 25 years of full-time work here is that know what you know

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: know who to call when you don't

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Yeah.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: And um, so our bench is obviously our internal, internal organization, but we speak a lot also about our strategic partnerships

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: and our ability to react. So the reason why we can work on these projects that are across the country and into the Caribbean, again, some of these projects are, are our portfolio projects and some of them are third party. And we take pride in the fact that even our own internal staff doesn't necessarily always know, because it doesn't matter. A dollar's a dollar.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: is the work. It just needs to get implemented and it needs to be done well. but the reason we can do this work all over the country and into the Caribbean

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: in, when you say into the crew, you say, all over the country and into the Caribbean. just say All over the world. No, just say, all over the world.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: seems too grandiose for me,

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: [00:16:00] I know. Well, okay. Western hemisphere. All over the Western hemisphere,

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: But

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: I,

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: those strategic partnerships that allow us to really react.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: You know, I had a call yesterday where we were talking about a new project in the Caribbean, and I like working down there because it does really force, um, there are guardrails on those projects and, and there's constraints and um, you know, it's, it forces us to creatively not just, it's not just about a creative design, it's not just about a guest experience.

It's about how do you execute, how do you actually make it happen in a remote location, you know, what are the other resources you're drawing upon from the region and and beyond to make that

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Oh, that's interesting. So the guardrails in there is more, more remote places. They're not just the covenants and the balance sheet and the development schedule. It's also just the virtue of how remote the project is and people and, um, utilities and, I don't know, materials and everything.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Yeah.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: honestly in some of these locations, weather, I mean, you look [00:17:00] at, you know, weather in the Caribbean. Sure. It's

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: it's hurricane season now. Hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: hurricane season right now. Um, you know, weather and, and you know, you look at some of our projects out in the mountain west, um, you know, whether it be the Veil Four Seasons project, when we de did that, develop that for the lender, um, or, you know, currently developing a, uh, townhouse project that will have a hospitality component in Steamboat Springs, Colorado called Rowan Steamboat. Um, that, know, there we're not worried about hurricanes obviously, but we've gotta get concrete placed before winter comes, and winter comes every year.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: So Spencer, I wanna, I, I love how you mentioned that the Madeline, which is now the Madeline, but it was the Capella with Hors. I loved how you said um, what you learned from hors schutze was service can overcome any and all shortcomings. Right? And that was your first hospitality project. But then you've mentioned a couple times the Four Seasons Veil and I think I mentioned [00:18:00] the Mandarin Oriental Grand Cayman

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Yep.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: down in the Caribbean.

Um, so those projects don't just happen and I think that, if you could tee up like how you're brought into those projects from, from a lender? 'cause I think, you know, a lot of designers and architects listen to this and you know, there I find that most people get. Set up on that original caps stack and the original development plan.

How did, like, how does that, how did those projects, or maybe they're, they're both different projects, but like if you were to walk us through the process on how you come in on one of them, and then how you rescue and keep everyone happy and through your service at RAL overcoming any and all shortcomings, like walk us through, from start to finish, how you hear about it, how you come in, um, what are the biggest, um, roadblocks and how do you execute and deliver.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Yeah, absolutely. And they are two very distinct projects because the Mandarin Oriental is, we've been working with that team and on that, [00:19:00] on that team, we are the development partner on that team, uh, since will call it day one of the, the Mandarin iteration. Um, and that project is, you know, it's, it's moving great.

We broke ground on it in February this year, and, um, are looking for a 28 delivery and opening. So they, they're very different. But it, looking at something like the Four Seasons Vale Project or. I mean, I wouldn't say countless, that's probably a bit hyperbolic, but you know, many others. Um, we come in, we, we've been brought in at different stages of projects and, and you know, there's a different set of circumstances and, and, and a different approach, um, given what stage of the project.

But let's use Vail as an example. We had just finished, uh, delivering, developing the, the Capella, the Madeleine, um, and was a very similar size project. Um, that project, they were both the 400 plus thousand square feet. [00:20:00] They both had a large site component. They both obviously were luxury hotel operators.

Both had residential components to them. And um. We had an ex, we had a relationship with four, with the Four Seasons team. Prior to that, we had, we had actually spoken to them about Telluride back in the day. It was way premature for them. Um, but, uh, we, and we had spoken to them about other projects. In addition, um, the lender is usually in, in a lot of these cases, the lender or the financial partner is who ends up, uh, contacting us or introducing us to the project. often that happens at a, in a very soft way. Um, you know, it's, it's a in a conversation that we're having about another project where, know, there might be mention of, you know, issues or something, what they're looking for, or maybe they just need a, a bank level inspector [00:21:00] or a bank level presence in that project. Uh, and the Veil project, we were contacted by the lender. There were, there were concerns, just, uh, and, and I think those initial concerns were probably related most to the great financial crisis. Um, not necessarily to everything that we discovered or became part of once we got involved in the project. Um, but we, we initially became part of that project to represent the lender just kind of provide some oversight with the current development team. And as we got engaged, we actually, um, placed one of our full-time team members out in Vail. Uh, it ended up growing from there, uh, what our staff presence was. But, um, the other unique part of how we do this is, is our team members that are onsite are all professionals. Uh, so a certain level of experience that, that [00:22:00] they've gained in the industry prior to, prior to participating at that level. Um, and, um, so we put someone out there who was used to remote locations who had just come off of participating in the Capella project, and we were falling into, you know, in that case, these remote locations. Also, these small towns typically have very stringent entitlement processes, the permitting, the design, approvals, all that.

So this project was fully designed and approved well in advance of us getting involved in it. The foundation was in, uh, several floors of concrete were poured, and we got involved to just kind of be there as a presence. As we were there, we found that they really needed a lot more. and we're not the group that looks for problems.

We, we are totally solution driven, both on our own projects and our, third party projects. We're, we're looking for solutions, never looking for the problems.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: And [00:23:00] that project just kind of kept percolating. It was, it was a little bit of the game of whack-a-mole. There were problems with certain specifications.

There were certain buyout problems, there were actual execution problems with the construction. Uh, we got through that process and, and at a certain point there, the issues that were being discovered necessitated a change in the contractor. So not afraid to be the voice in the room to make sure that ownership and the people with, with the most risk at hand. know the facts. I mean, the truth is, is, is the key to making these projects happen. and that's how the transparency is what makes the teams work. So we talk about, you know, how relevant the brand is, the design team, the contractor. And what's most important in these development, these hospitality development projects, is that all of, there's someone that's liaising between all those different entities, [00:24:00] managing all of those different entities needs and choreographing the approach and the solutions.

And

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Mm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: what we do.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: And I just wanna also educate the listeners so that, um, just so everyone knows, and you probably already know this, but like when any development project is going on, there's equity partners and then there's the bank that gives the, the debt financing. And the debt is managed by contracts and covenants, and that is like the bedrock for how it goes.

So when the project goes sideways or is on the verge of going sideways, all the limited partners and the equity partners are, you know, you get a higher return than the bank might, but there's a more, there's a bigger risk to them and they could get wiped out. In some cases. There could be a workout where they get diluted, but the bank is holding the paper on that.

So when it starts going sideways and the bank comes in and says, Hey, we need help here, um. It's usually, it, it, it's about to get very messy for a lot of people. [00:25:00] Um, so I just want everyone to understand that. But I also want people to understand that you're not only coming in on distress deals. That's kind of like you've had a lot of opportunities to do that, but you're also a developer at the very beginning where you find the property, you model out the performa, you bring in the el, the partners and get the debt financing and go.

So I just want everyone to just be a little bit clear about that. 'cause I'm also learning as well.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: and that's why I was, I was saying that the, the Mandarin Oriental project is so different

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Yeah.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: than that Val Project and the Mandarin project

Um, because it does really what it does is it shows our, our kind of breadth of how, how we work.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Um, I will, uh, you know, it's, it's important that I, I always say if it doesn't matter whose project it is, if it's ours or someone else's, you know, the execution of that project is, is rooted in the skillset and the creativity and the solutions that it's gonna take to deliver it.

And that's how our team operates, and that's how I've learned to operate. You know, I, I [00:26:00] always say that my, my, my asset and probably my greatest liability is the fact that will never point a finger and say, it's not my job.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Mm

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: wasn't, I, I wasn't raised that way. it's all solution driven. So we get involved in a project and we deal with whatever needs to be dealt with in order

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: mm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: That project. and yeah, I think that's, that's. Kind of the underlying, so, you know, the Mandarin project, as you said, is, is, it was different. It was, we were introduced to the, the team who had put together the land. It's an amazing piece of property in Grand Cayman on the South shore. Uh, the only white sand beach on the South Shore, 800, 900 feet wide, 300 feet deep. and then Iron Shore, we've got, you know, I guess I think about a half a mile of shoreline.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: I mean, it is stunning. If you go to the website and we'll have the link in the, in the show notes, uh, if you go to the RAL website, there's, the renderings are freaking [00:27:00] amazing, by the way. It looks like it's really exists, and I know you just broke ground in February, so it's probably on its way to becoming that.

But the renderings are fantastic and the beach, and I mean it, it's really quite a stunning property of two different types of buildings, but they are speaking the same language, and you can probably explain that better than I can.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Yeah, that's part about, part of what our job is, is to put together that team, that figure out what is the overall program for the site. Obviously who's gonna be the brand and operator, um, but also what's the design language that we want to deliver here? And in the case of the Mandarin, The site is 67 acres in total, which is an enormous piece of property for Grand Cayman, um, with all of this beach and coast front. And what we wanted to do is we wanted the master plan to have the ability to, to build over time. So we knew, you know, the hotel core itself and the hotel towers are located at the beach.

That's kind of [00:28:00] the hub of activity, right? Everyone's gonna draw in that area. So you've got your restaurants, all of your lobby, and you've got this beautifully designed, um, hotel towers that include the 91 standard hotel keys and, uh, 20 residential condos up above. And this is, this was the all designed and concepted by Hart Howard, and they're awesome at what they do.

They're just really good hotel hospitality designers. Um, and

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: And who? Who's doing the interiors?

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: are by Meyer Davis

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: oh, I love them. Okay, great.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: the restaurants and the hotel towers. And then because the site is so big, we've got this, these, these opportunities to build some residential only properties as part of this.

So they're branded residential. Um, and we've, we've bifurcated the site now into what we call the beach house and the ocean house. The beach house is the area of that main [00:29:00] hotel core, all that activity. And then the ocean house is up along the iron shore, uh, on the other side of the hotel core. And what we wanted was, we wanted the design to be compatible.

We wanted it to feel like a family of buildings, but we didn't want them to be twins. So we, we referred to it as this idea that we wanted them to be cousins. We wanted a familial relationship. But we didn't want them to be the same. So we actually brought on a, a, a friend of ours and an amazingly talented architect, uh, Reda Amou, a W2, uh, based in Paris Reda and his team concepted the Ocean House and have designed the Ocean House.

And it's another 22 condominiums and branded, branded unit, branded residential units, uh, that will be part of the Mandarin Oriental. And, um, it's just a total, it's, it's a very different experience. It's a different site experience, but it's also, the design has different aspects to [00:30:00] it, and it kind of targets a different buyer and user.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: And that's through this, this idea that they're related, but they're not the same. And we

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: So

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: we wanted a diversity of product.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: I have a question on that. Um, so I know how the hotel development process works. So there was, the land was there, you came in and helped develop it from the, uh, post land deal. Right. I understand the um. Hotel development process. I, you, you can proforma that, you can do your fundraising on that, but on the branded residences are, are you, are there triggers that you wait for as a developer to like pre-sell so many?

Or is that typical? Are you doing it ap Like how does that work? 'cause it's almost like, it's not a timeshare, but kind of, it's like a, it's a condo that could go into a rental pool, maybe. Like how do, how do you explain that? 'cause I always have a hard time understanding the differences in those, in that model part.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: so we, we come from a world, another reason why we love hospitality work is we come from a world of luxury condo. Uh, we've done a lot of [00:31:00] luxury condominium work here in, uh, new build as well as conversion work. We were, we were doing conversions of buildings in Tribeca back before the word was cool. Um, and, uh, starting in the mid nineties. And you learn in, especially in New York condominium work, is that there's a very. Um, there's a, there's a tremendous level of responsibility that's put on the sponsor as the sponsor developer, especially in New York, tied back to the offering plan and, and the regulations. And it requires a real level of quality of delivery and design, uh, that that needs to be maintained through the process. In addition, what you learn very quickly, especially working through the cycles, is that you need to design as if all of the units will not be deliver, will not be closed on day one of delivery. Um, it takes time sometimes to sell out these units. So you, you try to strive for a timeless design [00:32:00] that reaches a broader audience. And it kind of goes back to the idea that, um, ano another horse schultze,

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Oh, keep 'em coming.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: this one was the idea that, um, you know, design is subjective, but quality is objective. So you might not love the design of every space that you go in, but you can sense and feel the quality of the delivery. And that should resonate with the guest or the buyer.

And they should feel and sense the, the thought and the quality that's been put into everything. And that very much resonates throughout my, my career, uh, and the career and, and, and the history of RAL as well. But coming from this condo world, we can, we fit very nicely into the branded residential atmosphere. Uh, we can, um, we, we work obviously in the hotel, we work very closely with the brands, but you also [00:33:00] very work very closely with the real estate sales world. Um. We, again, rely heavily on our internal design team as well as the designers and architects and, and that we hire for these projects to help us come up with that's, it's timely but timeless, if that makes any sense.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Yeah.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Um, it, it's gotta feel very much of the moment, but it's also got a feel of the moment in 10, 15 years without being able to predict that.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Right.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Uh, so we, we, and, and it's also, it's a very different user, so, the brand does get involved in the, in the branded residential development. So they're putting their programming and their hospitality and their hotel operations.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: are they bringing perspective? Owners as well, and you're marketing it there too. And do you have to get like to a certain threshold before you break ground or, or pour cement or whatever.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: So they are definitely, um, the brand does definitely bring [00:34:00] potential buyers, um, depending on the brand and the brand's relevance across the globe. Uh, in, in Grand Cayman, obviously Mandarin Oriental being a very international brand,

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Mm-hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: has brought it's, it's brought their brand and their re their relevance to that, to that island and to that project and, and people can identify the project and, and be interested in the project because of their, their participation in it. From a pre perspective, very dependent on the individual project, the location, the partners and lenders. Um, we have traditionally in, in less, risky locations, so the islands have traditionally been a presale environment. Miami, Florida, that is, that is a self-built. Kind of presale environment,

Speaker 2: Hey, everybody. We've been doing this podcast for over three years now, [00:35:00] and one of the themes that consistently comes up is sustainability, and I'm just really proud to announce that our sponsor, Berman Fall Hospitality Group is the first within our hospitality industry to switch to sustainable and recyclable packaging, eliminating the use of styrofoam.

Please check out their impact page in the show notes for more info.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: So those aren't getting, those aren't happening without a certain threshold of presale being met in the traditional sense. Okay.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: they're not, um, they get to a certain amount and then the financing kicks in. What's interesting about New York um, coming from a New York environment where

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: let me just jump in here. Is is New York more like Iowa in Field of Dreams where it's like if you build it, they will come?

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: very much so, but for a very specific reason.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Okay. Tell me.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: You can't use any buyer deposits towards construction. So you are not [00:36:00] relying on buyer deposits to be part of your capital stack. Because of New York's, um, attorney general laws and, and sales

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Really,

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: you can't use any deposits. So there's no, yes, of course there's a benefit to knowing that your project's gonna be a success when you get out of the ground and be able to deliver.

So having pre-sales, you know, we certainly pre-sale our projects in New York,

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: but the bank, the bank might look at those pre-sales, even though you can't use it. They may look at it like, okay, well this is like, there, there is something there. There's a, there's a foundation built.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: of concept early

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Okay.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Um, so it certainly helps

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Financing, but it's not part of your capital stack in New York, whereas in Florida and the Caribbean, the, um, out, out west, um, in, in Colorado, um,

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Oh, that's really interesting.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Buyer deposits towards construction. So you're actually taking, your, your loan is less, and they, and before a lender gets involved, they wanna [00:37:00] know. That you have, you have taken in a certain amount of

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm,

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: to fill that capital stack.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Interesting. Okay, so if I'm hearing you correctly though, in for, for the project down in Grand Cayman, for the Mandarin, there are, or not pre-sales or you don't need them, you're just doing the Oh, there are. And you're using that towards your overall cap stack.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: it, it depends on the sale. So there are both on island sales and off island sales.

But, um, So, but uh, there, there are presales there. We, we, we wanted to, you know, get out there and be selling and, um, I believe we're, we're very close to, if not, um, exceeding 50% pre-sales at this

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Wow. And, and, okay. And so they're looking forward to 2028. And then with the, with those branded residences, is there a rental pool component as well that that happens as well?

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: So

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: If they want it.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: we

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Okay.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: pool word.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Okay. Sorry.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: there, [00:38:00] there is a program, um, a, a, a rental program or management program that is available, um, on those units. And we do, we hope there will be a high level of participation. Um, you know, one of the things that you see more and more in some of these mixed use or mixed programming hospitality developments is that the residential units in those developments end up being the, the larger suite stock

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Yeah.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: The, in the hotel inventory. And, uh, we've seen evidence in Grand Cayman that, that that will hold true down there as well. Um, but there is a, there is a program, um, Mandarin will be, you know, can, can manage your unit or manage the rental of your unit as part of the hotel inventory.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: We have, as I said, there's 91 hotel rooms that are not for sale. and those include, you know, standard Kings doubles, um, as well as junior [00:39:00] suites, executive suites, all the, all the good mix that comes along with

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: But the branded resonances will be much bigger.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: And the branded residents there are much

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Multiple bay bi DA room. Okay.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: our, our branded residence is, uh, the, I believe the smallest layout that we have is a two bedroom and I believe it's a two bedroom plus. Uh, and they go up to five bedroom.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: And then, oh wow. And then with the, something like the bigger units, those are, you can book them through Mandarin Oriental or, um, maybe other OI don't know, other OTAs? Or is that, or does the branded residence thing go through like luxury, like vacation rentals and,

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: It's,

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Virtuoso or,

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: to the jurisdiction

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: and how the, um, underlying documents of the development are set up. So in that case, the, the hope and I believe, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with the hope is that, um, of

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Huh.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: rentals will be managed through Mandarin, uh, through, through the [00:40:00] Mandarin process and, and part of that inventory.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: okay. And then as a, if you do rent that for like a, a family reunion or a larger get together, um, you're still getting the housekeeping service and turned down, like turned down or whatever. Or I guess is it you can say, oh no, we just wanna be here as a family

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: No.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: service suite.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: it, it operates like a Mandarin hotel

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Oh, wonderful. Okay, cool. And that is an exquisite experience. I've stated a lot of mandarins over the years. It's awesome.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: it, it will be. It certainly is.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: And then Mandarin Oriental, I assume when this is done, that's probably gonna be. One of the nicest hotels on Grand Cayman. Um, what's the, and you may not wanna speak for Mandarin, but I would always imagine people, like you said earlier, is, is just the hardest thing to get right on any project.

And I would assume for that level of service that you would expect from a Mandarin Oriental, it'll probably be [00:41:00] difficult to find people on Grand Cayman. Do they have a specific strategy for, uh, recruiting, building their bench, so to speak? They must be building it now, training, um, showing them the Mandarin Oriental Way.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Uh, yeah. So in, in our discussions, um, there's certainly no stranger to remote locations or, or these resort locations. Um, they certainly have started planning early. Uh, they, but they do have a very localized approach. Their goal is to, um, hire locally where possible and train and provide the, the, opportunities and the skillset, uh, that that will be needed for people to work for Mandarin in Grand Cayman.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Mm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Um, certainly they'll probably have some off island labor that they'll bring in, but the, um, but. I do know that they do have the ambitions of, of trying to hire as much [00:42:00] locally as possible. It's, it's very similar, honestly. We've got a, we've got a decent road to get there with the, the actual construction and execution.

And it's a very similar strategy to what we're pursuing with the construction. You know, the, the best means is to local skill, um, or find local labor that can help implement, uh, this, this work. And, uh, so it doesn't, it's, it's interesting because obviously it's a very different, uh, employment pool, it's a, it's the same problem that we face during the development process that then kind of becomes part of the operation team's issues.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm. Cool. Um, thank you for sharing all that and thank you for educating me and hopefully our listeners. Um, I wanna switch gears and, you know, your dad, Robert Levine, founded RAL, and what lessons from him do you carry into every single project and also all listeners? I, we have been on warning that Robert May enter into the, [00:43:00] um, where he's recording right now because he just might do that, but

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: and I gotta be honest, he did walk

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Oh, he did?

Okay.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: won the most likely to walk into the room

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Despite the signage saying you're recording and

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: he does not as,

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: he does not keep out.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: does not have to acknowledge signage,

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Yeah.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Um, uh, but he did drop off a bowl of fruit on my

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Oh,

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: hospitality roles, it, it's very deep in our organization.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Good.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Um, um, you know, he, there there's so many lessons that I've learned throughout, you know, my, my siblings and I grew up in the business. Um, I'm the middle child. And, uh, I was always, I'm the most like Robert. but we grew up in the business and, you know, Saturdays were for checking jobs. Some days were for, RAL actually started as an architectural firm, and it was primarily focused on big box retail, supermarkets, [00:44:00] uh, and retail centers.

And so Saturdays were for checking jobs. Sundays were typically for supermarket openings, and that's what our weekends were. And we were part of it. We knew the team. You know, we talk about bench. And bench has been such an important part of my life. It's the people that I work with today you know, some of the, the, my closest confidants in the business.

We came into the business together, even though I was in high school when I started originally. but you know. I have, there's an incredible amount of respect that we have for bench and for people, uh, which is so relevant in hospitality, but so relevant in everyday life. And it's something that I'm trying very hard to, to teach my kids too. because everyone has a role in every project and in every part of life. And we talk a lot in this, in this company of leave Your, leave your title at the [00:45:00] door we're, there's something to learn from everyone on a job site. And, uh, that's something also my, my grandfather taught my father. My grandfather was a commercial painter. That's how my father got into the supermarket business actually. Uh, we, we painted supermarkets and we still to this day maintain a third generation, uh, commercial painting business. Um. Totally different conversation. They do not paint hotels. Retail is a very different painting job than, than a, than,

a hotel.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: I can imagine.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: but so, so the respect for people and the, the opportunity to learn from everyone on a job site is something that I have learned. I have, I am teaching my kids and, um, and something that everyone in our organization truly believes. Uh, the other thing is I, and I think I mentioned earlier this idea that you don't know everything. you know, you, it's as important to know who knows it is to know yourself

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Yeah,

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: putting together, it, it kind of all goes back to people, [00:46:00] which is, you know, it's kind of crazy. But, um, it's, it's knowing who, who's, the right person for the job, who knows you need to know. and then very important. you're not above anyone,

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: right.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: you can do everything. We, when we were, when we still joke about it to this day, when we were opening the Capella, Robert, we, we joke that project is not finished until Robert has hung the artwork on the walls.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Oh,

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: So when we were, when we were opening the Capella, not only did Robert hang the artwork in, throughout the resort, but, Vince from my team, who's been with Robert for, almost 40 years now, and I were hanging TVs and that's just what we do.

And if we gotta grab a

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: yep.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: finish off a project, we grab the broom to finish off a project. It's not, it's

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: I,

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: to get done.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: I love that. And that's one of the things I learned from a early mentor of mine is that, [00:47:00] you know, early in my career I was buying furniture for hotels. I was, I worked for a purchasing company for a couple years, and then when I was 26, I started a company selling furniture to hotels. And when I was 26, we were, I was running, or before that when I was purchasing, I was buying all the ff and e that would go into all these hotels up and down the west coast.

Um, and what I learned from our, my boss and mentor, Steve Higgins, who's no longer with us, and he's insane and I miss him, but he would get everyone down to that hotel when it's opening, like pre-opening, there's all the installers and everything else, but I'm carrying lounge chairs and ottomans down the hall wearing my, wearing the calluses off my feet.

And, uh, he would always, he would, he had this ability to. Get everyone to laugh, but also maintain intensity. 'cause he was so wild. But, um, it was, what I learned is that it's really, we're in the business of opening hotels. It's not that we're doing this one little job, and I've taken that into every other business I've ever been a part of or [00:48:00] started.

It's that we're in the business of opening hotels and that can be like one little vocation, but at the end of the day, hanging, hanging the TVs or, or hanging the artwork, it's all about everyone coming together and getting that damn thing open.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: And it, it goes back to what I was saying earlier about how we see ourselves, ourselves as facilitators. We, that's, that's, it's because it's all about delivering

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Mm-hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: It's, it's about advancing something. It's about delivering something. It, it's about working together to do that. Um, you know, we're not, we're not developers.

We're not spreadsheet developers. we

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: You're rolling up your sleeves and getting in there

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: we

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: on Saturdays and Sundays, you're checking the projects and going in and walking the retail stores as as a high school student. And then, so that actually leads me to my next question is, so having started in a family business, that's always challenging, right?

Especially with multiple siblings and you being the middle, the the middle child. I [00:49:00] assume that there were just family, families or families, right? And shit shit's what it is. But since you've become president, has your definition of success or a job well done changed?

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: you know, a job well done still, I'm still focusing on the, on the actual execution and the what did, what did we deliver. Um, and I don't think anything has changed with that. I think the, um, getting more involved in the actual business and administration end of the business, uh, as, as president and, and. Always being concerned about pipeline and having to not just focus on the projects and what we're doing, but also focus on the business

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Mm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: And, and delivering and, and ensuring that our bench is secure. Our bench is, [00:50:00] you know, we've got work for the bench always. Uh, I think that's probably how my views have changed most. It's because it's not just as you said, we're not, you know, we're not just opening a hotel, we're focusing on, know, a, a portfolio of projects and what does that portfolio today versus what is it next year.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Mm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: I also think there's a, a, an interesting, juxtaposition between. Our portfolio projects and the services work and both have different requirements from a business aspect and and how I see those and pipeline.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Okay. Um, we were also talking about, you know, your path of leadership through outside organizations, whether it be ULI or YPO and I'm sure there's other ones. Um, in your, in your community and since becoming president, what kind [00:51:00] of, how's your company culture changed? Or like what, where do you think your fingerprints are on any kind of changes in company culture or all that?

I call it Kool-Aid drinking stuff, but I also think that's the most important thing. 'cause if you get the culture right, and it sounds like you already had a great culture. Um, but are there any things that you're like new. Culture ideas that you're bringing that have your fingerprints on it.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Yeah, I think I, I mean I, we've always had an amazing culture here. We've always been about the team and about the projects and, and working together, um, to the point where, you know, we will often get the question from our partners or clients like, who is the point of contact? Who am I dealing with on this project?

And I'll say, well, you're dealing with this person, everyone in the organization knows everything about your project. And they're like, well, how could that be? Like, well, because God forbid something happens, the project's gotta go on

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Mm-hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: we've gotta be able to still answer your questions because you're still gonna call tomorrow. we've always had this very, um, [00:52:00] this, this very communal approach to how these projects happen. The other to that is you get the shared knowledge of everyone. You know, I may not have been through something. One of my colleagues has been through, and they'll be able to tell me how to address something or how to approach it.

Or someone might just, you know, some, someone might just yell down the hallway like, you know, have you thought of doing this? And it might be something completely crazy, but you know what, it might work if we try it. So I think from a company culture standpoint, we've always had this great company culture. The one thing that I think the market has more ch forced a change in than, than I particularly have

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm. So it's like all boats rise or sink and are rising or falling tide. Right. And you have to like, you have to adapt to each of those things.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: But, and I, and I think the, but the, the market, the market force that has really, um, changed is idea that, um, [00:53:00] accountability matters on our

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Mm-hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: The, on the developer, on the client, on the consultant side. I feel like there is a fear of accountability kind of more in the financial world. So everyone's kind of just checking all those boxes, but it's pushed that responsibility of almost so sole accountability onto the teams that are executing these projects.

So we are trying, you know, we, we've always taken personal responsibility and accountability for what we're each working on here, but I think, um, one of the things that we are more about is, you know, how do we document accountability and, you know, how do we make sure that, um, we are, we are remaining accountable, each of us is remaining accountable for the, the work that we need to get done and deliver. Um, and uh, something also that I, I believe has come out [00:54:00] of my experiences at YPO. And, and being part of that group and learning from other businesses, uh, you know, every business is built totally differently and definitely learned that in my, in my YPO days as well. But what I've learned is there's, there's, there's snippets of everyone's business or how things are dealt with, or how, you know, they might have a thousand person organization and I've got, you know, we're, we're in the 75 to a hundred depending on what's going on, but there might be of their business that become very relevant and resonate with me in conversation that I can try to implement as part of our of projects

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm. I would say, um, from my, I love that because everyone thinks their business is unique and special, but it all comes down to kind of similar functions, right? It's like having the right people on the bus. [00:55:00] There's a, a visionary, there's an integrator, there's a sales function, there's an operations function, there's a, um.

Financial function, and then how you organize that mosaic is different from business to business. And even being an entrepreneur, entrepreneur for, I don't even know, 20 something years or more, more than that. Ugh. I'm getting older and I forget. But, um, in smaller companies, in medium, medium-sized companies, there's always companies that are bigger.

They may have more zeros on their p and l and more zeros on their balance sheet, but we all face the same challenges because as through any organization, like there's just smaller departments, that you need that accountability. And it's hard to establish accountability without a clear vision. And it, that's that whole thing of just refining vision.

How are we getting to where we're going? What, what? So you're not just dead reckoning, you're like plotting a course and obviously you have to change your course over 10 [00:56:00] years, but it's then how do you get that vision? Disseminated to everyone and create all the circuit breakers and communications and ex and and escalation mechanisms to make sure that you're keeping that boat on the course.

And then you change course when the tide comes out or comes in. But it's, I don't know, I, I love business because it's just such a, um, it's like a never ending puzzle, right? And you're always having, I love tinkering and building mouse traps and to me it just, it's amazing, um, to be able to, and to have the opportunity to wake up every day and try and solve these challenges.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: What's, what's cool about you? What you just said though, is that's also the perfect, Explanation of why we love development, but also why we love hospitality development. And what I've, I've always said, I've talked to my kids about this, about hospitality development, is in hospitality development, there's so many pieces, there's so many voices, right?

There's so many different people that play into it. It's, you've got a much [00:57:00] longer list of consultants. You've got the brand and the different levels of the brand. You've got operations, you've got technical services, then you've got, obviously your partners and lenders and all that. Um, and putting those pieces together to get to what is that end project can, to kind of come full circle in our discussion and come back to this idea that all these pieces need to fit together into a completed puzzle,

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Yeah.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Becomes that unique experience of someone walking into that lobby or restaurant or, or building for the first time is super cool.

And it's, it forces, you know, I talked about us being solution driven, but it's really. It's creativity driven because

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Forces having all those different pieces. You know, when you're building a puzzle, you don't just grab a piece and put it down, you gotta turn it a couple times. You gotta figure out how it really

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: You gotta dig your hand back in the box and get the other piece. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: And, and it's that creativity, that constant, forcing creative solutions [00:58:00] because there are these constraints, there are these guardrails, there are these things that pop up the whack-a-mole

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Well, and that's also the constraints. People may look at businesses that are, have three or eight more zeros than they do. They have the same constraints. They're just different.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Yeah.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Constraints are crucibles. And I think I, I love, I love those crucible moments. It's a, that's where real creativity comes out.

Um, I wanna go back in time to your, your college. You got your, uh, bachelor's in landscape architecture from Cornell. And did you, was that in Rand Hall? Like right on the quad there back in the day.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: was a joint program between the art and architecture

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Oh,

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: and the Ag school.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: oh.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: based in the Ag school. We were in Kennedy Hall

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Oh, that's amazing.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: the barrel dome building across from, um, Bailey, where, where psychology is

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Oh, that's amazing. I didn't realize. So then you have the whole, you have the design, um, function of the architecture school, but also you're [00:59:00] dealing with like an incredible, um, agriculture or agronomy, what do they call agriculture? Agronomy. Oh, agriculture. Um, wow. That's awesome. And then you got your master's from Harvard for landscape architecture.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: I did.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Okay. And what was the name of the hall?

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: at Cornell was Kennedy

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Okay. Kennedy Hall. So I want you to go back in time to your time at Kennedy Hall,

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Mm-hmm.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: And I want you to magically appear in front of yourself just before you graduate. And what advice do you have for yourself?

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: I look back now, so it's interesting. I was having this conversation with someone the other day, because when I was, when I was about to graduate from Cornell, I was working on my portfolio, putting it together. I'm like, I'm gonna go work at one of the landscape architecture firms, get myself licensed and see what happens from there.

I never wanted to, I loved the family business, but I thought that it was. A bit of a, shortcut to join the family business immediately I thought I had to go out and, and work for a [01:00:00] landscape architect and, you know, prove out my four years there. Um, I had amazing professors at Cornell. Cornell was amazing place actually.

Often if someone asked me where I got my degree, I always say Cornell and it drives my wife crazy that I don't also talk about my Harvard degree.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Well, at least you don't say, oh, up in, I got my master's up in Boston. 'cause that's always the The big tell. Yeah.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Cambridge.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Yeah,

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Um, yeah.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: own it. Own it. It's great.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: so, but, um, I had a professor who said to me, you know, you should really consider applying to GSD for master's because if you go right into the working world, you're never gonna go back and do it. And she knew I had the opportunity to do it. It could. And, and if she knew also, she knew my parents.

And she said that it, if I told my parents that I was applying to Harvard, there would be no other option but to apply to Harvard. At that point, fine, I'll,

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Oh, ' cause once you told them that, they're like, yes.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: they were all in.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: They can't wait to tell all their friends. Love it.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: So, and, [01:01:00] uh, so I said, I'll apply and if I get in, great, uh, I'll go and if not, I'm gonna continue on my path in doing this. And um, I got in and I begrudgingly went. It was, it was a great experience for me because I'm a very technical person. So Cornell's very, is a very technical landscape architecture program, and I loved that about it. It was all about constructability. And at the time it was, you know, we learned how to hand draft.

It was before, you know, CAD was prevalent. and uh, Harvard, going to Harvard was this very philosophical conversation. It was very theoretical design. It was very, and I'd sit in these classes, I'm like, but you can't build that. And everyone would be like, you're not here to build it. You're here to learn how to design and think critically and all this. Um, so, I, know, I, I worked through my two years at, at Harvard, I graduated and that's. [01:02:00] That's the next part of the story. But I think I would tell my Cornell self that, um, definitely, you know, pursue the Master's. It was the right thing to do at the time. Had I not, I probably just would've, I'm a workaholic.

I love what I do. I would've gotten into a job and I probably would've just worked at that job or, or, you know, worked, for it. I never would've gone back and gotten this exposure to an amazing network of incredible world renowned designers and, and, resources. And tell you, the Harvard, for some, some r reason, the, uh, the Harvard degree carries clout in conversation when, you know, you know, it, it, it definitely you relevance. Um, I had that same conversation with myself at when I was about to graduate from Harvard, which was. I'm putting together my portfolio, I'm going to apply to a bunch of design firms, and I'm gonna go work as a, you know, as a, as a [01:03:00] worker bee in at an entry level position, landscape architecture. And this was in early 2005 I and, uh, the top of the real estate world. I was finishing up my portfolio about to send it out. And I looked at the stuff and I, and I looked at the projects that some of these firms were working on, and they're amazing projects. But then you realize very much you're, you're entry level, you're going to be there drafting all hours of the night.

And I, at the time, you know, I had a con long conversation with my father and we were starting the, develop the, the design portion. I, he had been through multiple years of entitlements on the Capella Project in Telluride. And there were the 360 Furman Street, one Brooklyn Bridge Park here in New York, um, these major projects that were breaking. And I said, I'm never gonna, I, it's gonna take me 20 years in the landscape architecture world to work on projects of that prominence, but I will, [01:04:00] I will have worked my way up and, and worked on them. what we came to the decision on is I worked my way up in the RAL business. I started as a assistant project manager. I was, for the first two years of, of my career, I was commuting between New York and Colorado. Um, and then I went through some major cycles. You know, we went through the great financial crisis. I, I spent, I mentioned the painting company earlier. I spent a year doing takeoffs for the painting company because it was just, it was work that needed to be done.

And, you know, the. That's, that was work that was available during that time. And I think, again, my, I, advice to myself would be conviction, but not ego. Like own it. Going back to what you were saying, you know, if you wanna do it is nothing wrong with entering a family business. Um, there was, it, it was not a, a [01:05:00] nepotism thing.

It was, you know, I was gonna come in, I was gonna work through these things. I was gonna learn from, at the time I was learning from our director of construction who was one of the best in the business. and I learned and I made the relationships and I worked on the ground and, and, and came to what we're doing today, which is really cool.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Mm

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: And gave me the opportunity to also crew, kind of build a, a piece of the business that we didn't necessarily have before, which is this third party work. We, you know, we took the bench and we. We deployed it to others' benefits to

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: So

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: these projects were getting done.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: if I'm hearing you correctly, the advice to your younger, younger self is own it. And what I mean, and what I think, uh, what I'm hearing you say in own it is like when you're gnashing your teeth and wring your hands over a decision. Which path do I go down, [01:06:00] pick one and own it. And with intention, like it's uh,

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Yeah.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: uh, um, a strength of intention in a difficult decision?

Just go. Because you can always pivot. You can always change course. And rather than like all the heartache and calorie burn over wrestling, like, okay, you wrestle, but then just fuck, own it and go.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: yeah. Own and, and I think the same thing goes for, you know, faced with decisions and all in development. Just, you know, you gotta, I've, I recently was told that I actually talk out. Out loud, verbally, both sides of an argument. And then there's a point, there's a clear point in a conversation where you can see my head pivot and pick one, I own it and I go with it.

And this just three weeks ago, one of my partners said, said this to me, he's like, you realize you talk it all out and, and I have to stand here and listen to both sides, which he is like, it actually benefits me in the long run. But you then there's a, there's a visible point and you pivot and you pick your side and you just [01:07:00] own it and you run with it.

And

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: I love that. And that's, you know, that's that whole idea. I, I love how you described design earlier, which is the, at the Harvard part, which is like really critical thinking. And I think that design should be taught much younger to kids and not, and when people think of design, they think of creating some kind of a, of a drawing or a building or a painting.

But to me it's really critical thinking. It's like, what are you, what are all the challenges? How do you talk them out both sides, figure out what it is and come up with a solution and go that way and then adapt as you go. And to me, I, I love that description of how you described design, and I think it truly is.

And I think if people thought of design as. And many people do. But if everyone thought of design as critical thinking, and finding solutions based on critical thinking, I think that that could be taught at a much younger age in schools. And I wish it was, I don't know why. It's not like you can take fine [01:08:00] arts or painting or, or drawing or acting, but it's not like design and really, 'cause design is, I think everything.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Mm-hmm. And design is not necessarily just beautiful,

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Yeah.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: is, like you said, it's, it's, it's making a decision and, and forging ahead with it.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: It's writing an essay. It's all these things. Um, Spencer, I've loved this conversation so much. Um, thank you so much. Um, people wanted to learn more about you or RAL, what's the best way for them to find out more?

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Uh, our, our website, RAL companies.com and companies is spelled that IES, uh, is a good place. I've started to kind of actively post some of our milestones on some of our projects just because I'm excited about them.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Mm-hmm.

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: And, uh, so those are, those are two good sources. There's, uh, the ability to contact me or contact the company on both of 'em and, uh, phone numbers and emails and all that good stuff.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: Awesome. thank you so much for sharing [01:09:00] your story, sharing your insights on our industry. I really appreciate it

spencer-levine_1_09-05-2025_095128: Thank you so much for having me.

dan-ryan_14_09-05-2025_095128: and thank you to all of our listeners. Without you, we wouldn't be talking to amazing people like Spencer and hearing his story and allowing him to take off the pirate hat and eye patch of coming in on distressed situations and understanding how care and hospitality can actually turn really messy situations into great things.

So thank you all for listening. If this has changed your way of thinking on hospitality, please pass it along. Don't forget to like and subscribe.