Defining Hospitality

DH 030 JoAnna Abrams
Dan Ryan: [00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.
I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality. Today's guest is an award-winning leader, entrepreneur, business strategist, and innovator. She's been named a hospitality industry innovator by Lodging Magazine. She's the CEO of Mind. Click Incorporated, ladies and gentleman, Joanna Abrams. Joanna, welcome.
JoAnna Abrams: Thank you. It is so nice to be here, Dan, and congratulations on the success of your podcast series. I'm so glad I get to be a part of it. Oh,
Dan Ryan: thank you. You know, hospitality is just so important to me in all the different stories that we tell, um, I think are just so important to as the glue that kind of binds this whole story together.[00:01:00]
Um, just for the guests, I just want to say, you've heard me say innovator a couple of times with respect to Joanna and I first met her, I don't know, in 2010 or 12 when mine click was getting, coming out of the gates. And what I have to say is it's taken 10 or 12 years for you to become an overnight success.
And I'm just so excited because my journey into the world of sustainability was, I became a lead accredited professional in 2008 or so and we changed our supply chain. . Um, but I got really disheartened because most of the, most of the, um, sustainability programs in the alphabet soup of everything that's out there, which we'll talk about in a minute, it didn't pertain to anything that if you turn the room upside down or the whole hotel upside down, whatever fell to the ceiling, didn't count in this.
But that's the stuff that's important to me and to many of the people that I'm interviewing on this, because that's what we're doing. That's the what, that's what the travelers are touching. [00:02:00] That's what the people experiencing this travel experience are, are, are feeling. So how did you get to this point with mind click?
Where and why did it take so long to get here?
JoAnna Abrams: So I'll, I'll start with the first question. Um, so at the time, um, one of my business partner was a woman by the name of Heather Gao. And we met at a, um, uh, conference in San Francisco and she was working on a book that was, I forget the exact title, but basically like green It for Dummies.
You remember that whole dummy series that was out there. And we had been doing consumer research at the time. We were one of the first companies to connect the changing climate and changing weather patterns with people's understanding of the impact of climate change. Um, and this was like 12, 13 years ago.
Um, our team had come out of work with Toyota, this whole, um, kaizen continuous improvement [00:03:00] kind of model, a tqm approach, right, where you're have key performance indicators and you are trying to move the needle. Year over year, and Heather described her challenge working for a building products company of being overwhelmed by all the eco labels and certifications that were single attribute.
And you, you understand what I mean by that? But for the audience, it's like you measure just one thing, right? It might be the material in your product or it might be the chemicals, or it might be. Packaging. Right? But you didn't, she didn't have a way of being able to look across the organization and understand, how am I doing overall and how do we keep driving improvement?
So a little bit naive at the time. I said, well, we can do that. That's exactly the same kind of work we were doing in a different subject area with Toyota. So we sat out on the journey to do this. And the way we did this is we looked at all of the globally accepted standards, the wri, the gri, the lead program, you know, the different, uh, sustainability certifications, [00:04:00] cradle, cradle, and the like.
And we literally spent a year just creating a series of questions and answer options that related to. Practices, like what are you doing when you think about materials? What are you doing when you think about chemicals and where are you on the journey? And we created this initially for a company to look at their own operations.
We tested it on organizations like Payless, shoe Source, Mara Tile, organizations like that, and we're getting some traction. And then I met Diana Dobin at a, um, sustainable Brands conference. One of the first, I think it was like the second one actually. And, uh, we, um, were outside at some evening event and started, you know, just chatting And, uh, she learned about what we, I was doing and our company was doing.
And she said, you have to come in and do this for, for our company. And as you know, valley Forge Fabrics has been on this journey, um, as long, if not longer than you have Dan, in terms of their, um, sustainability leadership. So,
Dan Ryan: oh, I think their move, their [00:05:00] first move or prime mover actually influenced me. To take this even more seriously than I had and actually do actionable steps.
So yeah. That's amazing.
JoAnna Abrams: Yeah, so long story short, we came in and did an assessment and I had been advocating for saying, look, the power of ratings isn't just what your rating, but it's also the rating of other companies in the same space, right? Mm-hmm. , because that then helps you understand how you're doing relative to your competition, helps your customer understand it, helps, you know, drive the needle forward again, following a JD Power, you know, Toyota kind of approach to things.
And, um, at the time it was not easy to, um, to, to see that. And after we got done doing an assessment of her company, um, it made complete sense. And, um, she also was dealing with the problem as were many other manufacturers of the amount of greenwashing that was going on out there and the challenge that customers were having and understanding the story they were [00:06:00] trying to tell.
And to your point, Dan, , there was this huge category of product that wasn't covered by the lead rating systems or any others for that matter. And you shake, turn the building upside down, shake it out. Everything that falls out for the most part isn't covered. So when you think about, um, new design and construction and renovations especially, that's what the vast majority of the product is, right?
Particularly in the whole hotel. So it made sense to us to focus on this very high volume, uh, process that exists in the hotel industry and one that is so visible to the consumer. And at the same time, we were doing this initial work, we'd done a research study with Expedia, 5,000 consumers globally to get them to tell us what sustainability meant to them when it came to hospitality.
And I can tell you it wasn't decline housekeeping or hang up your towel. Instead, we found a very clear correlation between consumers own understanding of [00:07:00] sustainability in their home with flooring while covering fabrics. I mean, we were shocked at how much knowledge consumers actually had, and were thinking about when it came to the products they were selecting.
So we also, so
Dan Ryan: actually, I, I actually wanna jump in here because as we talk about hospitality, and I know you're in a bunch of different silos, but as it pertains to this world of hospitality, what took. The 10 or 12 years from this initial vision and, and all the work that you've done to where we are now with this, all of this ESG money.
Because really, I think you said this in one conversation with me, it's like, okay, you gotta follow the money, but now it's important. So I'd love to hear what your perspective is and then I'll share you like a little anecdotal story that I, I've heard recently.
JoAnna Abrams: So, um, it's really complex. And I can remember talking to, um, folks who said, how in the world are you going to be able to take an upholstered chair and break [00:08:00] apart, you know, the chair from the fabrics, from the foam to come up with a sustainability assessment of a product.
Um, and we were fortunate enough to be able to partner with Marriott to help them green their global supply chain specifically in this space. And in doing so, we brought together a consortium that, um, included the US Green Building Council, uh, designers, um, manufacturers, and so on, to really take this, what we'd initially developed and expand upon it.
We got a lot of buy-in for that. And the same time as we were doing that, Dan, we. A lot of brands at the table. We had the Marriotts, the Hyatts, the IHGs, the um, winds, et cetera. And what happened? And the reason that, you know, we, and I raised, you know, venture capital funding as well, and we just hit a wall.
And the reason we hit a wall was because the business model is one in which the vendors are paying for their ratings. And many brands had a really hard [00:09:00] time with being part of it because how much control did they have over what the franchisees were Purchas. And that's the crux of the matter, right?
Because from a brand standard development standpoint, the, you know, Marriott is far stronger than others in terms of the alignment between what's in the brand standard and what the franchisees purchase and others, you know, and they have their wholly own purchasing company that um, uh, Dave Lip leads and so on.
So there was more of a connection to the vendors to see the ROI for being in our program to begin with. And then also more control over the ability for it to be carried through in terms of what got purchased for hotels. Fast forward to where we are today. So you could have leaders, you know, like the, like Marriott, be it on this journey and be in a position to influence heavily what the franchisees are purchasing.
So it made sense for vendors to be part of the program cuz it's the ROI at the end of the. Now fast forward and the REITs [00:10:00] and these property management companies are now being asked to report on esg. And that reporting includes their Scope three emissions, what's happening with their supply chain. And that reporting includes the choice of materials and you know, efforts to reduce waste and that kind of, that kind of thing.
And they need data. They need the ability to be able to quantitatively demonstrate that they are implementing these practices. So if you're just starting out today, And, you know, you're a high gate or you are a, you know, name any other company in that space, um, or, you know, management company, um, or reit.
How do you do this? It's really, really hard. And sustainability leaders typically aren't always associated with the supply chain. They're, they started with the low hanging fruit, which is operations. Right. So here we are.
Dan Ryan: Well just to jump in there. Yeah. For your solution in the low hanging fruit, what.
What I love is like as, as [00:11:00] humans, when we hold the mirror up to ourselves, sometimes we don't like what we see. Mm-hmm. . And I think what really is intriguing about what mine click is has done and the platform you've created is, okay, you know what, let's hold this mirror up and see really where we are granularly from cradle to cradle, cradle to great.
Mm-hmm. cradle to wherever and okay, you can see you're really good in some places, but then we can see, ooh, that's maybe not so good. And when you feather in like the overall idea of hospitality and these guest rooms where there's almost an implied engineered obsolescence in kind of what we're doing.
Cuz we have to keep things fresh, we have to keep inspiring and we have to keep impacting our guests. Um, to be able to hold that mirror up and measure and have a baseline is really exciting to me because Okay. We might not like what we. But once we measure, we can affect change.
JoAnna Abrams: Absolutely. But there has to be a reason to measure, and I think that's what's changed in the marketplace.
You know, you asked me why has it taken eight to 10 years, and that's the [00:12:00] why. Because you know, what reason did an owner who's, you know, the one writing the checks, have to do this? What was their incentive? What was the ROI for them? You have a few, a handful, one to 2%, maybe up as many as 5% that are doing it because they understand and and recognize the impact to our industry, the impact to livelihood longer term and frankly health for people in the planet.
Right? So they get it, but what about the rest of the 95%? What does it take for them to get on the journey? Then that's where the sea changes occurred. When you have, you know, Uh, Larry Fink from BlackRock, who has, you know, completely changed the game from the financial community. It's not political anymore.
It doesn't matter who's gonna be in, in the administration of the White House, it's the financial community has put their foot down and you have, all of the big banks have committed that by 2050, 100% of their, uh, lending will be carbon neutral. I mean, wow, that's [00:13:00] huge. And they're starting to measure today.
And so the financial markets, yeah.
Dan Ryan: Just going back to the Larry Fink front, because I've talked to a bunch of people and it seems to me that, uh, he wrote a letter to all of his investors and, and the companies that he invests in. So his, the CEOs of all the companies that they, as, as asset managers invest in, um, basically saying exactly what you said, it is so important to be able to measure it is so important to do here.
And I think from the conversations that I've had, um, That has been going around for a long time and need to do it. But he was really the tipping point. And I think one of the big voices of the tipping point was Greta Thornberg, I can't say her last name perfectly because I don't speak Norwegian, but just holding up that mirror to all of us and saying, Hey, we need to make a change.
And he did it. I think for, I think his intention really was truly, yes, there's a profit motive, but also more [00:14:00] than that, I think it really was, we have to change. We are on a path to nowhere.
JoAnna Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's absolutely right. And I would say that that Greta is the spokesperson for a generation who.
Um, grown up seeing things happen so quickly in terms of a changing climate and a, a changing world. And, um, they are much more informed and aware and are challenging in all of us to do something about it. And so it's not just, you know, Greta as an individual, but it's, it's a, a primary job, uh, a recruiting requirement, right?
If you aren't talking about the initiatives that you have underway, uh, and from an environmental and such responsibility standpoint, you're not as appealing to, you know, today's, um, the, the, the workforce of today. And it's not just about lip service. They really wanna see action. [00:15:00] And that's just a sea change.
And we're also seeing people that have risen into management roles now who share these same values. And now that they're in a position to do something about it, they are doing something about it. Yeah,
Dan Ryan: it's interesting. I was watching, um, I dunno, real time with Bill Mar or something the other night. Uh, and he, did you see this one I
JoAnna Abrams: love?
No, but I love that show. Oh
Dan Ryan: my God. He's, he was basically saying, look, Greta is the voice of a new generation, but is she really? Because she has 13 million followers on Instagram, and then Kendall Jenner has 150 million followers on Instagram. So really, like, what is the voice? And I, I, I think he was really just having fun with it.
But I really think that Greta's voice is so important and powerful and it, and as a spokesman, she really is kind of, I, I do feel people coalescing behind her. Um, But then I, so I wanna tie all of this back into obviously what this is about, hospitality. So how [00:16:00] do you, all the, this whole sea change has happened from ESG investing from the, the, the surprisingly well-informed guests that are staying at hotels that knew about sustainability.
It's important to them for the choices that they make in their home. How do you define hospitality? Knowing, knowing what you know about hospitality and how does all the work that you're doing and the sea change that's happening tie into how important of an impact hospitality has from to for travelers?
JoAnna Abrams: Well, so first off, You know, whether you're traveling for leisure, family events, work, the concept of hospitality is that there's an entity, people that are providing you, a place that provides, um, comfort, security. Um, [00:17:00] a home away from home kind of concept, right? That's, that's what it's been all about. And a base from which to, uh, either do the work that you're there to do, explore, enjoy family time.
And a huge, huge component of hospitality is service, right? I mean, it, it really is that that experience that you have is based upon, um, the environment that's created through a service orientation. And it was interesting in the research that we did, we, um, did a digital marketing campaign for a courtyard that was renovated in Southern California where we told guests about the positive impacts of products chosen for a courty.
Has a following, a renovation, both, um, environmental and uh, and, uh, social and, and, and health and so on. And we de we then looked at the research results and saw 150% increase in satisfaction and loyalty and all these key measures. And we interviewed [00:18:00] these folks who had seen the, the marketing campaign and, and said, you know, Talk to us about this.
Like, what, what, what would this mean to you? And over and over and over again, we heard that people saying, a hotel that has gone out of its way to choose products that are better for me and the planet is, is really taking care of us and that really stands out and I'm gonna choose that hotel over others.
And they really equated it with that service experience and the care that has gone into creating that environment from which to. Do their work, try, do their entertainment exploration, enjoy family and friends and the like. And I think that that is the power of the hospitality industry is that, you know, the people who are in this industry are people who care, who like to be together, who like to, to create these, these fun, enjoyable spaces and, um, occasions, wherever that is in the world.
And so the thought that goes into how we build these [00:19:00] spaces, how we, um, furnish and supply them and operate them, if we're really sticking to that concept of this service that we're offering people as they're traveling to create that foundation from which to have great experiences that should go into the choices of the products that are used and the impact that those choices have on our health and wellbeing.
And we literally had one of. Um, guests say, I wouldn't wanna think that I'm harming someone by my choice of where I stay for vacation.
Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm. , you know, when I hear you say those two words, this is the, in all the conversations, this is the first time I've heard them both tied together, but service and impact and mm-hmm.
if you think about the storytelling, the brands that do the best storytelling, um, they draw the guests in. I'm actually surprised that more retail companies and you hear a lot of big retail companies starting out and doing hotel brands because if you think about it, it's the completely the most immersive [00:20:00] experience you can do cuz you're actually sleeping there.
Absolutely. In the brand and breathing's. So if you think about the impact as. These, um, brands are serving others. And you can also tell in a very thoughtful, or weave in a very thoughtful story on sustainability, where many of these people, they don't stay in very well designed places. If you can take this design impact and weave in the story of sustainability, you can have legions of people go home and want to make a change as well.
And a company that comes to mind is like Sh Hotels in their one hotel brand. Yes. I feel like they are really an industry leader in that vertical. Um, but in them leading the vanguard, much like a Larry Fink may have done in the financial world. There's other people who wanna follow and do that. Um, not because of a profit motive, but because, oh my gosh, this is a layup.
We can really make a difference by telling that story and have people go home and affect change.
JoAnna Abrams: 100%. And we know that people look to the hospitality [00:21:00] industry for ideas and innovative ways to design their own homes or workplaces or, I mean, all the other sectors of the commercial world of design, um, look to the creativity, um, and vision that comes out of the hospitality industry.
And it really places, um, in, in places designers in a very interesting role. And, uh, uh, a year ago, um, Avi, uh, Roger g Oppel from the editor in chief of Metropolis Magazine. Uh, released a story on how, um, the research has shown when you look at the impact of the interior products in a space of, and the renovations over the life of that building.
And I think it was a study that was like only six renovations over the life. Um, the impact of those products from a carbon footprint was as big, if not bigger than the building envelope itself. And for lead and all these other building standards that have come out, the focus has been primarily on the, on [00:22:00] the physical structure of the building and neglecting to consider fully the impact of all those products coming in and out for every renovation that you do.
So his article was a real, um, called a Action for the design community saying you have a huge role here, and I heard a statistic last week, which is huge for every dollar that the consumer spends on products that are around interior design. And, and a typical interior designer spends $54. And a designer working for a top 100 firms, um, spends $110.
So when you think about the impact of their purchasing, not that they do the purchasing, but what they influence, it's unbelievably powerful. And designers have really struggled with being overwhelmed by all the eco labels and certifications that are out there. Those are really important, but how do you get your arms around it?
And that's part of the value that we're providing to the marketplace, is making it really easy for designers to create designs for hotels that support the health of people on the planet, um, and [00:23:00] in a way that fits into their practice of design. And so they can really be a part of this and really, um, uh, take the lead on the empowering role that they have.
One
Dan Ryan: of the things that I love so much about mine click is that when anyone is ever trying to renovate or build a new building, I always find that, um, perfect. Is the enemy of good. Sometimes people get so stuck in trying to find that perfect solution or whatever. But in looking at this holistically, I mean, okay, you have your corn shell kind of program that you're working with, whatever you choose, whatever alphabet soup you choose.
But on the interior and of the, what the interior designer is designing and specifying, there is an ability by what you've created and the platform of looking at it holistically. So, okay, you know what, this one might, this part might not be that great, but this part far outweighs that. And you can really look at everything holistically.
And what's really cool is if I play it out in my head, um, I don't know, once [00:24:00] you have so many brands on, or ownership groups or whoever, where at some point I envision them all going into a room somewhere and looking at all of their data and looking at the, the, the lowest hanging fruit of like, Hey, how can we move the needle and all get our heads together and like, let's invent a new way to package, or let's find a new way of transporting or a new, instead of using mbf, let's convert wheat into some kind of a board or something super innovative.
I feel like that is something that excites me in the future. And how are you thinking about that?
JoAnna Abrams: That's my favorite part of what we do. I mean, that's where I love the word innovation and um, I feel like we are really translators that are unlocking that potential for everybody who is involved in the design and, um, specification and purchasing of products.
Um, and one of my favorite stories I like to tell is about a signage company that recognized the challenge of the, um, pulling signage off the walls when you do a [00:25:00] renovation. And the problem is that the sign itself, Made of metal, for example, is recyclable, but the glue that is used for that to be adhered to the wall creates a real problem when you try to take it to a recycling center.
So they had created a solution, which to be honest, I don't know if it's actually fully implemented today, but the idea was that you would send out your new signage in packaging, that you could then put the old signage in, send back to the signage company, and they could use that because they have the capabilities of layering in new material on top of that material to create signage.
And it was actually cheaper for them to do that than it was to create it from the virgin materials. That kind of innovation, to me, is outstanding and I love it when that is happening and we need to encourage more of that because it's gonna take all of us working together to come up with the solutions that support this concept of circularity, right?
Where you, you move away from this throwaway world that you know has been such a big [00:26:00] part of, uh, of renovations. So,
Dan Ryan: Also to the iceberg. Right? And, but also, as you said that, it made me think of a time, do you remember when, um, there was that initial wave of anti dumping duties on, uh, wooden bedroom furniture coming out of China?
So in a way to kind of explore circumventing that I, I read about this product, it was called like wheat board or something. So instead of mdf, which is what the bulk of most custom case pieces are, it's, which is chopped up wood, wood dust in a resin. It was basically this, uh, Just wheat, cellulose fiber, bulk fiber that they would grind up and then make, uh, board out of it with, with different glues and ress.
And I submitted, I, I tried to get a, a waiver from the Department of Commerce and I, I hired a, a patent attorney and a customs attorney to see if this, even though it was like more than 90% of the weight, if this would be [00:27:00] possible, and then they said no, it would still be wooden bedroom furniture, even though it wasn't wood anymore.
It was something, yeah, totally different. And it just really, that just frustrated me because as innovative as we all can be, sometimes there's someone sitting in an office somewhere that just says niche, niche, um, um, . But I feel like we should re-look at that because that product does exist.
JoAnna Abrams: It does, and I think, don't quote me on this.
I believe there is a manufacturing PLA in California that is coming up to scale on that. Really? Um, yeah, I'll, I'll do a little digging after our conversation and see what I can find on it because I, I was at a composite panel association event. I was actually speaking and I believe that one of the audience members talked about that, so
Dan Ryan: Oh, great.
Yeah, that was 10, 12 years ago that I looked into that. That was super cool. And it was just, it was like a real kick in the gut when the government said, Nope, you can't do that.
JoAnna Abrams: Yes. Uh, the amount of times I've heard no , I would be an unbelievably wealthy woman. [00:28:00] Yeah. I've got a penny for every time I heard no
Um, but I, you know, somebody asked me one point, have you ever thought about giving up? And of course, I mean, I'm human, right? But every time I was at a point where I was like, what am I doing? This is crazy. This is so hard. There's so many other ways I can make money and contribute. Something would happen whether it's, you know, working with a vendor who their team was so excited about the progress they were making, or a designer who was super excited about having access to information or even, you know, a brand or what have you.
Just coming on board and it's other people who are equally excited about being on this journey and wanting to do something about it. I feel like unfortunately, there's so much doom and gloom that is used to talk, you know, in the conversations around climate change and sustainability and. And people feel helpless, like you wanna go hide in a cave, right?
You just feel like it doesn't matter what I do because these forces are so overwhelming. And [00:29:00] so we actually give people hope and a way to be part of the transformation that is needed. And that's what keeps me going because like I said, we're facilitating. I mean, it's the manufacturers, designers, I mean, they're the ones that are doing such hard work, um, to, to make changes to, to, um, help us all with a better future.
Dan Ryan: Well, the other thing, and when you first told me this, I really couldn't believe you. I just didn't believe you, I just didn't make any sense. But I'm not gonna try and pronounce his name, but the, the guy who wrote the article, or the gentleman who wrote the article for the Metropolis Magazine. Yes. The, I was so blown away that.
All the ff and e or the fixture, the fixtures, furnitures and equipment, for those of you who don't know that go into a property throughout the renovation cycle of the, of the his, of the life cycle of that property, far outweigh the ongoing operations of that building. Like that just blew me away. And when you [00:30:00] read that and that read that study, I just saw you light up so much because it really validates all the work that you've been doing for over a decade.
And how, how, yes. How is, how is that idea going to get into more people's head? Like how do we get that out?
JoAnna Abrams: Well, podcasts like this certainly help and talking it up everywhere we can. Um, and uh, also, you know, um, I asked, uh, Paul McElroy the question of how much of their portfolio's, new construction versus renovation, and his answer was 95%.
So when you think about the, you know, that, that, whether that's a proxy for all of hospitality or not, it's a, we can be sure that that number is very high, right? From the standpoint of more renovations happening than new construction. And in the new construction, there's so much focus on [00:31:00] the building envelope itself and the renovation much, much, much less so, like how many renovations do, involve a real, um, change out of that building envelope.
So we don't really have much of a choice but to focus in on. What's happening in renovations if we're gonna affect the change that we need to. So it's powerful.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. Two things on that front. And, um, I wrote an article on LinkedIn, I don't know, two and a half years ago on adaptive reuse and, you know, you spent all these time, or I spent all these times writing these articles and then, you know, a couple of people will look at it, but it was just a labor of love for me.
Yeah. Um, but the one on adaptive reuse, which is really just renovation, right. Taking the existing corn shell. Um, it really took off it, I don't know how many likes or views, but I was very surprised. It was like a 10 or 50 x, um, for all the, compared to all the other ones I was doing. So it's like, it's a thing, right?
Yes. And people really care about it. So that's just one [00:32:00] data point. The other one is, you know, you mentioned Paul McElroy, and this comes down to the power that we all have as individuals. Mm-hmm. , whether you're a Larry Fink, you're a you, you're a me, you're a Greta. Or appall, like the more people that are talking about this and can actually affect change, like Paul said, oh my gosh, do you know mine?
I said, yeah, I've known them for a really long time. He's like, you gotta talk to them again. Like, sustainability is really important to me and we're going to change at high Gate and we wanna lead. And I was like, okay. And then I was like, Joanna, we gotta talk. Like, let's, let's get this thing going again.
And um, I think that the more people can influence and speak about this from a personal experience, I think the better.
JoAnna Abrams: I would agree with that. A hundred percent. Um, and you know, even, uh, the topic, esg, I spoke with Susan Sohar, um, who's a, a lead designer, um, of [00:33:00] hdr. And, uh, she does a lot in their healthcare practice and she and I ended up speaking on ESG at NeoCon a year ago.
Nobody had any idea what that was. Right. This year everybody's talking about esg, so it's, you know, you've got people in influential positions. Having the conversations and pushing things along certainly has a big, um, big, big impact on, on making this a, a conversation that doesn't go away. But you're absolutely right, every single one of us has the opportunity to, um, make an impact.
And the more that people understand that, uh, they can have a seat at the table in this and that their actions do do matter, um, the more traction we're gonna get. It's not. Yes. Does big marketing and uh, you know, sales efforts and so on, um, help a lot? It does, but it's more, the longevity is there when people are understanding that the choices they make and how they make products and how they specify [00:34:00] products and what they buy really can go a long ways towards addressing our problems.
When you think about knowing the carbon footprint of a product based on where it's manufactured, and factoring that into your choice, And supporting, you know, uh, there's been a lot of conversation about local sourcing, right? But when you really step back and understand why does local sourcing matter? So when you think about the fact that that carbon footprint is, is, um, so much higher depending on how far away you have to bring the product in from, and then also what's the source of that energy that is being used to manufacture that product, right?
So those, bringing that and making that part of an ongoing conversation becomes a powerful way to really make a difference.
Dan Ryan: I totally agree. And that's the other thing is, you know, you come, I come across these cynics who are like, oh, well, you know, being human is not sustainable, blah, blah, blah. But then I'm saying the faster we can measure everyth.
The faster that we can make strategic decisions to affect even [00:35:00] greater change. And then the sooner we get to that Star Trek fu future, I just dream about where, you know, it's just like everyone is happy and living and limitless, uh, renewable energy and just, it's just being about people or, and living beings and respecting where we are.
Um, I know that you, in a, a minute ago, you, you said, oh, you don't want to get all into the doom and gloom, but when we think about, I, I wanna go there a little bit because from your advantage as far as what you're seeing and hearing in all of your studies, um, what's keeping you up at night the most right now?
And it, and yes, you can be as doom and gloom as you want, but let me, um, let's rephrase, let's refocus this into kind of our world of hospitality or development. What's keeping you up at night?
JoAnna Abrams: Um, Not being able to move as fast as I'd like us all to move. Honestly, like I just, [00:36:00] when people have goals that, you know, they're gonna be carbon neutral by 2030, even 2050, I mean, 2030 is eight years away.
Mm-hmm. , it is not very long in our lives. And, uh, when you, um, look at the impact that we're all facing now, one in three counties in the United States has been impacted by a climate change related event weather. Right? So whether it's the forest fires, the extreme heat, the hurricanes, the flooding, no one escapes this and.
I think there's been a lot of frustration at the pace in which government and global governments have moved. And, you know, the, as you said, you know, there's always somebody who's got, you know, that no , you know, particularly when it comes to, uh, a bureaucratic kinds of organizations. Um, [00:37:00] that's what keeps me up at night is that, um, we don't have time and we need to be really pragmatic and really focus on the low hanging fruit kinds of solutions that are out there.
And like you said before, I, it's my the saying all the time, my organization is don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good because, um, you mean nature isn't perfect. Nature continually evolves and adapts and we need to as well. And if we, if we wait until everybody feels safe, that okay, we can come out with this now, we can say this now, um, because we've checked all of our boxes.
Um, what's happened in that time while we're waiting? , right. Um, and being in the Pacific Northwest for summers in a row of just not being able to literally be outside because of smoke. I mean, when it affects you personally, I think it accelerates people's understanding of we need to do something about it.
We can't keep doing things the way we have.
Dan Ryan: I totally agree. And then, so you've been [00:38:00] on this crusade for how, how long, like when did, when did the idea of sustainability and footprint, like when did that first enter? I don't know your, your, your site.
JoAnna Abrams: Um, I think it was 2008 or 2009. And when we were working with Toyota and I got to work on the Prius account and it was the it car in, uh, I lived in LA at the time, and so it was the, you know, it was before the Tesla and um, I, um, I was born in California, but I grew up in Oregon, so it really just appealed to me at that point in my life that I wanted to do work that was meaningful, um, as well as, you know, make an impact and make a living.
Um, and so that's when it all started and I had no idea how hard it was gonna be. No idea. Um, nor did I understand how politically charged it was gonna be. Um, and you know, I think looking back on it and, and being much wiser for the journey that, that we're on and continuing on, you know, you're asking people [00:39:00] to do the hardest thing that, that there is to do, and that's change, right?
Most people are really uncomfortable with changing. Um, it's much more, it's sort of the enemy that you know, is easier than the enemy that you don't, right? Or the fear that you face today is, is easier than the fear that you don't know is out there. Um, and, but, but at the same time, um, when we can. Talk about this in ways that are supporting people's growth and innovation and, um, the, uh, um, ability to make a difference.
You can connect with people in a way that helps to overcome some of that, and that takes time. It's just not something that can be done fast.
Dan Ryan: So, and that, that lack of speed is also, you know, it can be the curse of the, of the entrepreneur because, you know, we have a vision, we see it there, we see the promise land, but like, how much gas do we have in the tank to get there?
Yes. What was your first entrepreneurial experience,[00:40:00]
man?
JoAnna Abrams: Well, it's interesting. Um,
My first entrepreneurial experience was working for entrepreneurial companies and I, I started very young, Dan. I was, um, 18 years old and I was, um, interning for Dean Winter Reynolds. I was a runner on the floor of the me until exchange and, uh, I mean, before I graduated in Chicago and before I graduated from college, I'd already worked with IBM and my first job was working for Arthur Anderson in, in financial consulting.
And then I went to Harvard for business school. And it was during that time of, you know, after Arthur Anderson and, and going to business school that I really realized I had this, you know, entrepreneurial bug, frankly, because I just had ideas about doing things in different ways and I felt stifled by, you know, the big corporate structure of this is how you do it.
And so I got heavily [00:41:00] involved in, in entrepreneurial organizations at, um, at Harvard and, and the clubs and so on. And my first job at a b school was actually working for, um, which people kind of thought I was crazy, but was working for a, a grocery called Bristol Farms, which was on the cutting edge at the time on, um, prepared foods.
And I'd done this whole study in B school on the emerging market for prepared foods. So I'm dating myself age-wise, which was just coming out then. And it was, you know, so many more women were in the workforce and the need for, you know, feeding our families in different ways. And so it was really eye opening for me because at the same time as I was doing that, I also was running right up against the world of private equity, venture capital and the role of that in, um, early stage c.
Uh, and I had, uh, experience with Wolfgang Puck Food Company with the same kind of scenario, um, and then was involved in a turnaround organization that War Pinkus owned, that was a leader in mediation and, and arbitration. And so I got heavily involved in this [00:42:00] world of early stage companies that were fueled by capital to grow very rapidly and the pros and the cons and, and how you, you.
Manage culture and how you manage growth and how you ultimately end up being profitable. So I took all that knowledge and when the internet really took off, my first company was focused on usability testing, um, and, and being one of the first companies to do research online, um, and leverage technology to do focus groups and all sorts of creative testing through the internet.
So, um, that was really my journey. I, I've had the benefit in my career of working for very large global organizations, Nestle, PepsiCo, ibm, Arthur Anderson, and then also being, you know, on the other side of the early stage companies till finally I was ready to do it myself and, and, uh, with the whole.com era and, and coming out with a, a research company that then morphed into what we are.
Dan Ryan: I find it so fascinating where you, you [00:43:00] know, from an 18 year old working at Dean Whitter to working at, you know, you named some of the biggest companies from ibm, um, I forget the other ones, but like these huge companies that you're working with. Um, and you're still calling that an entrepreneurial experience because really it's about how do you take an idea even in these big, huge companies.
That's right. How do you take an idea, execute it and implement it? You, it's really, that's really what being an entrepreneur is all about.
JoAnna Abrams: Yeah. You know, when I was coming outta B School, there were certain, um, organizations that had these training programs where you would literally start out in one part of these huge organizations and then move to others.
You might be in marketing and then you'd move into operations, then you move into finance, and these were all sort of the training to ultimately be in a senior leadership role. And I, I like to say that I did my own version of that , well, at the same time raising, you know, raising two girls. And that was part of the journey as well, right?
How do I do this [00:44:00] and, and still, you know, be there the way I wanted to for, for my daughters, um, my family. But, uh, that's the experience I was for, I've been fortunate enough to have, is being able to work with a variety of companies in different industries and do have different roles that have given me great insight into how big companies work and how, you know, the early stage companies can succeed in that kind of world.
Dan Ryan: When you were 18 working at Dean Whitter on the Mercantile Exchange. Like that's from Ferris Bueller's Day off, where they're like doing all the hand stuff.
JoAnna Abrams: Oh yeah. Right. Oh yeah. .
Dan Ryan: How many women were doing that
JoAnna Abrams: at that point? Oh my God. Like five . I mean, it was, there were very, very few of us and uh, you know, there were three things that you talked about.
Sex, drugs, and money . Right. And depending on the day, and the conversation would vary. And I was like a college student. It was, you know, internship. And in my college years it was [00:45:00] amazing. And I originally thought I was gonna go to law school and because of that experience, I was like, I love this world of business and I wanna understand what's making these numbers move.
Right. Why are people trading and buying and selling these, uh, these, actually at the time it was commodities that we were, I worked in foreign exchanging commodities, so, um, you know, it was an interesting perspective on everything.
Dan Ryan: Wow. That's. That's amazing. And then when you went over into to business school at Harvard, how many women were in your entering class?
JoAnna Abrams: 21 or 22%. So in, and you're in sections. There are 90 at the time. 90 in each section. And so we were what, 18 of us? 17, 15, depending on, you know, each particular class.
Dan Ryan: Wow. But that's actually all things considered in the world of, um, kind of female entrepreneurs and women in the workforce, I think, I don't know, but I feel like that's a, a [00:46:00] high percentage for if you were to do like a.
I don't know, a one for one kind of ratio. Right. So that must have been pretty awesome to be in that group of female leaders.
JoAnna Abrams: Yes. It's amazing on so many levels today I believe there are, I think it's something like 55% of those who graduate from college are women. Mm-hmm. , um, you know, so it's much more reflective of the population overall.
And I honestly don't know what the statistics are for B School. Um, but um, it's not easy. I mean, the time period in which. . You know, you go back to business school, typically you're working for three to five years and then go to business school, you know, you're mm-hmm. . Um, and so it, right in that time period of when, when you started a family and how to suspect your career and do you stay where you're at or do you, you know, take time out to go to be school and then, you know, step into another career, which is often what, what folks [00:47:00] do.
Um, but the women that, the people that I was at business school with are incredible group of people. And, uh, many of them are doing just amazing, amazing things that have global impact every day in the roles that they're in. And there are others who have chosen different paths and who are making that contribution more at a local level within their own communities, or, you know, just.
Within their own families and all of it's okay. But I do remember one thing that stuck out in my mind was there was a, a woman who was an executive with caught beverages out of, um, out of Canada who came in and talked to our, our cloud, one of our classes. And she went out of her way to talk to the women in the class and she said, you know, when you think about your career, don't think of it as the typical stair step, you know, uh, progression that women have an interesting opportunity to come in and out of the workforce, um, depending on, you know, where they are at with their life stage of managing family and career.
And I took that to heart. Um, and [00:48:00] she's absolutely right. I think that, um, there's just, when you have the mentality of you have to follow a certain progression of how things work, you limit yourself. And when you can think about your career in more circular patterns perhaps, or just more, uh, uh, connecting with the relationships that you have and being open to new possibilities.
There's a whole world that's open up to, to, um, all people, but certainly women who struggle with that. You know, how do I manage all of it?
Dan Ryan: That's incredible because to hear that as a choice and an intention to come in and out of the workforce instead of, um, oh, I, I am, I'm raising my family right now and oh, I'm, I'm, it's gonna be so hard for me to catch up.
But hearing a mentor say that, Hey, this is a, an opportunity to be intentional because I'm always. So flummoxed by look, half the population are slightly more than half the population are women. [00:49:00] Right. And if talent of any kind is uniformly distributed, opportunity is not. And even though I'm saying, oh well 20% in your business school was probably a good percentage, then it still has a hell of a long way to go and think about how much, think about how much brain matter is not given that opportunity.
Right.
JoAnna Abrams: Uh, yeah. It for for sure. And these are such challenging things to deal with. Right. And we're all, we've been facing it with the pandemic. I mean, a lot of people are really. Questioning why there's such a, you know, the great resignation and why there's been such difficulty in, in refilling jobs. And you have to look at women's role in all of that, right?
And the lack of, uh, child options because of the pandemic and, and the implications for, um, keeping your family healthy and safe and and alike. So I think we, we, [00:50:00] it has opened up the door to have different conversations about what a career path looks like. And when I say in and out of the workforce, you know, to be more clear about that, by, I mean, It doesn't always mean that you have to take those positions that you think are the ones you have to have in order to continue to advance in your career.
And um, that's really what her message was and that's what I took to heart. Um, and um, I think that uh, cuz there are times you just can't do it all. It is absolutely impossible, right? Yeah. And to say otherwise is fooling all of our, or fooling ourselves. Right. If you want to have, if you choose to raise a family in a certain way.
Right. Um, and, and for me that was, I just wanted to be there in ways that, um, certain jobs or certain careers wouldn't have made it as easy for. So I certainly don't have all the answers, Dan, by any stretch of the imagination. I just know the path that I've taken has, [00:51:00] um, allowed me to, um, step out of that kind of traditional, this is the way you have to do things.
And I, I'm, I was more open to it because I heard a, like you said, a mentor say you can think about things differently. And so every time I had that moment of like, oh my God, I'm not gonna get there because I've had to slow down or work differently in this, you know, five year period or seven year, 10 year period.
It was about working differently and recognizing that, um, you know, keeping, keeping part of the game, keeping the conversations and relationships going, being on top of what's happening out there in the workforce and the world, you could still do those things and, um, find opportunities that you might not have thought existed
Dan Ryan: a hundred percent.
And, and I think that is the real silver lining that is coming out of this covid experience. Right? I think we're all thinking so much about, okay, what does a hybrid workforce look like? How, yeah, how, how, what are all of the different options? How do we change [00:52:00] the status quo as far as. How we do work and what we work on, and how does that change how and where and who we recruit and where we find that talent.
Because before, where the talent was uniformly distributed with the opportunity was not, I feel like it's kind of flattened the curve on the opportunity. Right. It's become more distributed now.
JoAnna Abrams: Mm-hmm. . I would a hundred percent agree with that. And I think that we are all having to learn to work in new ways and to, um, collaborate in, in new ways and think about space in completely different ways.
I mean, bringing it back to the hospitality industry, I, I see hotels as the, in a great, um, resource for the kind of engagement that, um, you used to rely on having to go into an office every day for, there's nothing that's gonna replace that in, you know, in person ability to get together, break bread together, share some time together to build stronger relationships so you can [00:53:00] work effectively remotely.
Mm-hmm. , how we do that going forward is gonna look different than how we've done it in the past. And that's where I think the hospitality industry has a real. Um, I mean, many of the hotel lobbies that are out there today are fantastic spaces, really conducive to that kind of, you know, connection and the ability for people to come together in different ways, um, while they're, you know, experiencing what, what travel has to offer.
So, um, or even if it's local, right? Um, so I think that that's an interesting future and I'll be excited to see what designers and architects and, and, you know, visionaries come up with as, as we think about, um, that, uh, that particular possibility. .
Dan Ryan: And I know we went through a little period of, of doom and gloom.
We didn't get too much down there before, but , just hearing about this reimagined future, right? A new opportunity, a new, a new path of intention, like, and all the work that you're doing and where, where that's kind of like [00:54:00] percolating. What's exciting you most about the future?
JoAnna Abrams: I love that we are returning to a world that values the role of people as much as it does the role of profit.
And I think that that, you know, can be an overused expression. People plan a profit in, in this, you know, sustainability vernacular. But historically before Milton Friedman, that is the way business operated. Business understood leaders understood that they had a responsibility not just to the shareholder, but also to the employee, to the community, and of course the customer.
And we lost that. And, um, we lost that. And, and Larry think, and others have come out, you know about this as well, the business, the round table. Um, a lot of leaders have come forth and said, this has to be more than just about maximizing shareholder value. Um, you know, coming at it from the business standpoint, and, and I, a lot of it starts there because how much time do we spend at [00:55:00] work, right?
And the values that are associated with the places we work trickle into the values that are part of our everyday life. And so that is what I am most. Um, hopeful about, because with that change, um, unlocks, um, innovation and a different way of all of us partnering together in which there is an equal place for making money, which of course is our world, and you need to make money to make a living.
And uh, um, and then, but to do that we can't, we can no longer exploit, um, the planet and
Dan Ryan: people. And this is that whole idea of stakeholders rather than shareholders. Correct. Which actually some people like you read the Wall Street Journal editorial page and you know, they think it's tandem out to some kind of bolick revolution.
It's fucking, it's crazy, but it is. I, you know, when I think about Milton Friedman, [00:56:00] I think if he saw a way that it could, that you could keep the profit motive in there and also. Create this, this idea of stakeholders. Cuz it really becomes this huge flywheel if you do it the right way and in a thoughtful way.
I think that he might agree with it, although the Wall Street Journal editorial page may say no, but it's basically like creating its own marketplace.
JoAnna Abrams: Yeah. I, I think that extremism of any kind is a problem. Right. And I think that, um, there were certain reasons that that philosophy took such strong hold at the time that it did.
Um, and we have to be careful that we don't go so far the other way either. Right. But, um, as long as money is gonna continue to be the means by which we are able to. You know, feed ourselves, house [00:57:00] ourselves, close ourselves, take care of our families, and so on. We have to respect that, and we have to respect the fact that, um, there should be a reward for the, the hard work that goes into, um, what is, um, produced out there.
But, but equally, it it, like I said, it can't be done anymore in a way that just, um, doesn't give a value, uh, to the, the resources that are being used to make that happen. And I think that's where the great disconnect occurred. Um, one of my favorite classes in, in business school was a historical look at business.
And interestingly enough, there were many, many companies, and I think you could say that this is still true today with when you think about the targets and the three M'S of the world, that Minneapolis really had a culture. Minnesota really had this culture of the organizations that were there, big companies that were there where they really did think this way.
Um, and I think there's a lot of Norwegian history in that part of, uh, our country as well that may have played into this. But in any case, um, [00:58:00] they were, they could certainly prove that they were incredibly successful and can, and companies today, when you see companies that have the B Corp status or those that are, are performing under this lens of environmental, social, and governance, esg, they are outperforming the competition in terms of the overall financial performance and in terms of growth and in terms of stability in their various industry sectors.
So there is a, a tight correlation there. Um, but it is, you know, getting people to think differently, which of course is what's hard.
Dan Ryan: Well, you know, again, you mentioned these really big companies like a 3M for instance. But I was just on a call the other day with this guy, Verne Harnish. He started the Entrepreneur's Organization, which I'm a card carrying member of, and he's created this legion of coaches.
Uh, but the presentation that he had, and he's written all these amazing books, he's, he's fantastic. Um, but he, he was doing a presentation on compensation for entrepreneurs, right? Mm-hmm. , smaller companies, [00:59:00] and really this idea of equity and what is equity and who gets equity and profit sharing and all this, where it's been around for a long time.
But now in this hiring crisis that we're in, it's really how do we model out what that looks like? So we're all in this to win together. Yes. And again, it comes down to stakeholders. So from the big companies to. From the, even, even to the smaller companies, there is a sea change right now that is happening.
I'm seeing it. Um, it's a lot of different data points right now, but something is really happening and it's really fucking exciting.
JoAnna Abrams: I couldn't agree with you more, and I think we, we've been talking about this in our own organization as well. You know, if you think about the millennial generation especially, they've watched their parents suffer.
Uh, just unbelievably as a result of globalization and as a result of the lack of loyalty that companies have portrayed to, to their employee [01:00:00] base. And so they enter into our workforce and, you know, um, and the generation behind them as well. And why should they have any loyalty? You know, because they've seen that it didn't get their parents anywhere, and instead it created a lot of hardship in many cases.
So, you know, the idea that you would stay in a job for 20, 30 years is just crazy to them. And I'm not saying that that is the answer, but, but we need to come back from the extreme of like, oh, I'm here for six months or a year and I'm, you know, gonna get everything that I can out of it, make my, my impact and move on to the next thing.
Because, you know, I've got a, a lookout for, um, for, for my career. And I think we've gotta find a better balance around that, especially in the, in the knowledge economy, which is, you know, certainly the space we're in. But I would argue even in the world of, of manufacturing, it's very much about a knowledge economy too, right?
And so every time you have somebody who you've invested in, And they leave. It hurts everybody. And it, and I look at it [01:01:00] as it's not just hurting the owners, it hurts the team, right? The the other folks who are still there because they've gotta make up for it. They've got to, um, add to their work that they're already doing, uh, in many cases that they're already feeling stretched.
Um, and it takes time to bring on new folks. So I think we have to do a much better job as leaders and owners of organizations, of helping everybody who's part of that organization understand, you know, um, the importance of their role in that, in the everyone else's success, right? And kind of move away from a, a very self-centered approach, which you can understand why they have that, right?
So it's behooves us as leaders to really go out there and, and make it a different story for the future.
Dan Ryan: I think that that all comes from values and all, all these small companies and entrepreneurial organizations that I work with through entrepreneurs organization. It's all values, first values from leader down.
And it's also, [01:02:00] but you know, you feather in the stuff that Verne was talking about. It's also like, who are the stakeholders? How do we define them and reward them? And so that we're all a part of it and we're all growing together. And I, I think it's a, it's a really exciting time that we're in right now.
Um, if we go back, Joanna, to the 18 year old, you running the floor at Dean whi with Ferris Bueller up in the, up in the gallery with Cameron and Sloan and Abe from, and the sausage king. Uh, you're run, you're down there, you're running the floor, but then you, the Joanna of today, the overnight success after decades.
Right. Um, what advice do you give yourself?
JoAnna Abrams: Be patient, have faith. and stick to your values.
Dan Ryan: Awesome. See, values comes up again. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we all need to go through an exercise of dusting off those values and making sure they're not just [01:03:00] some poster hanging up on a wall and that we talk about them every day.
I know, I do.
JoAnna Abrams: Yeah. I, I think that's right. And it's not easy. I mean, we are bombarded by lots of others values, right. So to be clear about your own and be comfortable in your own skin, I mean, tell an 18 year old to do that. Good luck, .
Dan Ryan: Well, it, it's, it's interesting, and this is, this is probably a se a separate conversation, but whether it's the 18 year old you or the current you, uh, I recorded a conversation with, uh, a gentleman named Arnie Maim.
He's, he's written books on company culture. He was a speaker of mine at mit. If you have a chance to listen to it or read his book, it's called Worth Doing Wrong, creating this culture, establishing stakeholders, whatever it is, it's worth trying even if you do it wrong, because it's creative, it's iterative, and you learn from everything that you've done in the past.
JoAnna Abrams: I think that is a fantastic statement to make because, [01:04:00] and, and it's, it's a philosophy of we're on a journey. There is no perfect. Right? And it's this constant learning and, and striving and having the desire to do it better, right? To be better, to take in, learn from others, um, while still holding, you know, true to a core set of values, right?
I mean, that's your, that's your North star, right? But the ability. And the, um, not just the ability, the willingness really is what it comes down to, to be open to the ideas of others and the contributions that they can provide, um, because of, you know, their own 10 year overnight success kind of thing.
Right? I mean, we're all struggling with the same kinds of things and we can all learn from each other. And through that communication and sharing, we get to a better place. And, and I think, um, that also makes the journey, um, fun.
Dan Ryan: Totally. And we all stand on the shoulders of those before [01:05:00] us in every which way.
And especially that, um, gosh, that mentor you had were, it's like, be intentional and don't feel that you have to follow this progression. I mean, that, that is just so powerful. And we just, we all, and you know what? She probably doesn't even remember. Oh,
JoAnna Abrams: I'm sure she doesn't. No. And it was at the time when, you know, everybody was going into consulting.
Like the job, the it job was either you're going to work for McKenzie or going to work for Goldman Sachs. Right. And here I am going to work for Bristol Farms. Like nobody's ever heard of this. Right. And so, the willingness to take that risk and to do things differently, um, I mean, it allowed me to learn and get exposure and have leadership roles that I, I would've had a harder, much harder time getting to, not in any way to, to diminish the, the incredible value of working for a Goldman Sachs and a Mackenzie.
Right. But, but again, not easy to take, you know, take the [01:06:00] road, not taken , but that they're not often
Dan Ryan: taken. But then if you think of the work you did with, as far as the takeaway and planning the meals and to like really cater to the current state of a family, I remember, I remember shopping at Bristol Farm.
I didn't have kids, but they had great, an awesome food section that I didn't have to cook for dinner. So it allowed me to do other things and do that. But if you think about standing on the shoulders of others, that's probably given way to this whole idea of fast casual and the Chipotles and the Sweet Greens and everything else in the world, right?
Mm-hmm. where it's just all laid out there and simple for you and the whole foods. Yeah. Um, well, Joanna, this has been incredible. Like how do people connect with you?
JoAnna Abrams: So, um, the best way actually is to go to, um, design for Health, um, and, uh, mind click do design for health.dot com. And, um, and that's where you can get a flavor of what we're doing to support not just the hospitality industry we're working in, healthcare and workplace and retail and senior living in the lake.
Um, and [01:07:00] then you can always reach me at, uh, jay abrams mind click.com.
Dan Ryan: Wonderful. Hey, Joanna, I just wanna say thank you so much for your time. This has been such an incredible convers.
JoAnna Abrams: This has been so much fun and I'm, uh, fantastic that you're, you're doing these. I love the, the way you take conversations in this meandering way.
I think it's just, uh, it's engaging so it's so engaging for the, for the listeners and every one of your podcasts, I've learned something from. And, uh, it's been, it's been a delight to be listening in on, on the conversations you've had with others, and I'm really grateful to have a chance to have the conversation with you.
So thank you. Oh, you're
Dan Ryan: very welcome. And I think it all comes from the people I'm talking to, and we all have these great stories. It's just a matter of getting them out. So I just wanna also thank you, thank our listeners. Um, and I hope that this talk has evolved your view on hospitality and how it can impact, um, the future in so many different ways.
Um, and if this has changed the way that you think about hospitality, please [01:08:00] share the podcast and, uh, thank you. We'll see you all next time.