Defining Hospitality

Dan Ryan: [00:00:00] today's guest is an inspiring entrepreneur. He's the founder of death and co he is the CEO at gin and luck. He's the coauthor of three books, death and co modern classic cocktail. Cocktail codex, death and co welcome home, which actually just came out on November 2nd.
Be sure to check it out. He is the father to a beautiful aria, a 20 month old pandemic baby. He's the co-founder. He's the co-founder of an exciting new hotel management company called midnight or tour. He's also a close friend and a former neighbor for many, many moons ago. Ladies and gentlemen, David Kaplan.
Welcome David.
David Kaplan: Thank you. What an intro? It's gotta be tough to
Dan Ryan: beat. I know it's a lot of words and, um, but you've done so much and I always feel. Like you are so much younger than me and you've accomplished so much. And just being a friend and watching your rise and all the great content you're creating and all the great moments of connection.
I'm just [00:01:00] proud to call you a friend. So thanks. Thanks,
David Kaplan: man. I feel the same. I feel the same. Not, not that, not that I ever feel like friendship is transactional. I feel like I've gotten so much out of our friendship and grown so much because of our friendship. So, um, it is, uh, you, you are your friend, but it is also just a pleasure to be here and on your podcast and in this pseudo work capacity and getting to hang out with you.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. And actually, as you say that, um, I knew this before, but it just popped back in my head, the first panel discussion that I ever moderated, which was kind of many, many moons ago, but led me to the path of being on this or having this podcast was we did a, uh, a panel at BDN. Y I don't know if it was eight or 10 years ago.
And it was re-imagining the hotel law. And you were one of the panelists. And it's funny if you think about that signpost or that point of time. I wish I could remember what year it was to where we are now. It's been a complete [00:02:00] pathway and like a mission of yours while you're doing bars, but it's also the public spaces of hotels and lobbies that you've, re-imagined, it's freaking awesome to have in some small way.
Been a part of that.
David Kaplan: Yeah. And hotels are more and more a part of our world. And, and we'll, we'll talk about that when we talk about an editor. Um, uh, but yeah, uh, our, our friendship and, uh, now longstanding kind of collaboration, um, has given me so much insight into, into this world that we play in more. And, uh, now you went from moderator to celebrate it podcast hosts.
So I'm a amongst the many other things that you do. So I love it.
Dan Ryan: Thank you for celebrating me. I appreciate it. You're making me blush, um, When I think of a bar or a Tavern or, or a place to just kind of come in, drink, have a bite to eat. It's all about connection. And I've found that in many [00:03:00] hotel lobbies, oftentimes that connection is absolutely missing.
And how did you put your death and company stamp into the hotel lobby and how did you come up to that inspiration? And like, what are you seeing. As a result of that.
David Kaplan: Yeah. So first our, uh, our kind of mission and purpose. Um, I have, well, that's somewhat of an aside, but both you and I kind of geek out on the business operating side of things and you actually turned me on to EOS entrepreneurial operating system.
Um, and so our mission purpose is, uh, we, uh, create connection, uh, or we create experiences and connect people through cocktail, anchor and hospitality. So it's right there and kind of our masthead in, in what we do, how we do it, how will you really approach everything? And it's almost kind of like a filtering mechanism or the guideposts in which everything needs to fall with.
And [00:04:00] so when we were lucky enough to, uh, be on the receiving end of just this very, very short, I actually went back and found it very short email from Ryan Diggins. Who's the developer owner and operator of the ramble hotel. Um, and if you're, if you're watching this, instead of listening to this, my, my green screen is showing a part of the ramble hotel lobby, beautiful 50 room hotel, where death and co Denver takes up about 12,000 square feet of all of the public space.
Um, so I went back and found the email. It was literally two sentences, two sentences. He was like, would you be interested in, you know, in an opportunity in Denver? Um, and I try to answer every email and, uh, take every call. I'm just interested to see what's out there. And so we were really lucky in that he already had a very, uh, shared ethos and vision, uh, in almost every respect.
Um, and so, uh, we, we definitely pushed both the design and, and him a little bit. And in terms of. How much more we could do with the lobby space, but he was already [00:05:00] thinking that the check-in desk, um, would be a very, very, very small footprint. And really this would be this kind of thriving lobbying experience.
Um, and we, and we use that term now within midnight, utter, uh, quite a bit like surviving in terms of like it's, it's, it's always, always active, always busy, always has energy to it. Right. And so we do that through being leverage anchored, but you do that through, um, through the floor plan and through space planning first and foremost.
Right? So not having this space broken up, having every space have some sort of. Purpose and, and activity to it. Um, and so those are the ways that we believe that connections can be made, even if that's and you and I spoke about this before, even if it's a level of connectivity that's, that's inward facing, right.
You still almost want to like warm yourself by the fire, um, of activity. Like I always think of bars is like the whole. Right. And so like, you, you, you need that, you need that warmth emanating out, not just the glow of the backbar, which of [00:06:00] course I love so much, but like the activity and people making something, um, and, and that kind of point of inspiration, um, also acts as a phenomenal point of self-reflection you can sit there and just be, uh, inspired in an office space.
Um, but yeah, that, that's, that's really, you know, how it came to be within, uh, within death and go Denver. And then we've just kind of pushed and progressed that from there. Like, what else can we do? How can we grow? How can we best service the hotel guests, the guest journey and our mission and purpose. And we're excited to continue to grow that kind of tinker with the ideas and a bunch of times.
Well,
Dan Ryan: okay, so you used the word tinker and I have a hard time with that because what I'm seeing, like, actually, I'm very surprised I I've been and stayed at that at Ryan's hotel in your hotel on separately, his hotel. Right. But it's says you're a huge part of it, but I've stayed there a couple of times.
And when I think of my experience there, it's totally not that lobby check-in [00:07:00] although I know it's there and you're right. That's such a small part of it. When I think of Denver, it's walking into this massive, totally engaged, exciting bar. It's just, it's. It's awesome. And then I love that you say the idea of the heart, because as I'm having more and more of these conversations, it's really when I think of hospitality, it's that feeling of warmth, right.
And the hearth, I think really symbolizes it and, um, I just loved that. You said that, because I think as through this exploration, it's, it's pointing me closer and closer to the hearts. So when we talk about hospitality and your experience and kind of the path that you're on, not tinkering, but kind of really breaking things and turning things over, I think.
How do you define hospitality?
David Kaplan: Yeah. Well, before I jumped into that, you know, I, I love that you kind of take umbrage with, with tinkering. For me, like tinkering is [00:08:00] really like Walt Disney had one of my favorite quotes and it's very long. And so I sort of paraphrase it, but essentially he said, um, she really fell in love with the parks and Walt Disney land.
Um, I would argue even more than, than his movies, um, because he could constantly, and he called the plusing, but he could constantly grow and refine or evolve that experience. And you get to work on it every day and over the course of years, and for something like Disneyland, for instance, you like, they have these big, beautiful trees and landscaping, and those are just going to get better with years, years in time.
Right. Um, but his, his quote. Uh, you know, essentially to the effect that, um, he didn't, he didn't like the finality of movies because once it was done, there was still so many improvements that you would want to make, but it's done it's out there in the world. And for the most part, you never mess with it again.
Um, with some exceptions from Spielberg and George is coming back and messing with their movies, but with the parks and with what [00:09:00] we get to do within hospitality, we can constantly evolve and improve it. Right. So, um, that's what I mean by tinkering, like really constantly making it better and finding ways to improve it.
Um, which I think is just so much fun. Um, and then how do I define hospitality? We've already touched on it a little bit, but I think, um, hospitality, uh, for me and for our company is defined by creating moments of human connectivity, moments and stages for those humans, for that human connectivity. And again, that can be.
You know, it doesn't need to be person to person for us. It really starts with, um, uh, our teams, our staff, our investors, forming a community and connectivity within those folks within our worlds, and then extends out to our guest fans followers. Um, and it doesn't always have to be people in the room. They can be, you know, fans or followers on Instagram, et cetera.
Like, you know, that those are moments of hospitality. Those are our spheres of the hospitality, and then [00:10:00] cascading that connectivity out into the community. And how do we become great, um, community members, uh, right. And how do we help to drive that forward? Um, and so, sorry, go on.
Dan Ryan: I want to stop on that one, because you said fans, followers and community.
Um, there are very few bars that are out there just from my experience in, I. Great experience and frequenting bars. That might be my Irish, uh, background in last name, not to make every Irish person, a bar hat, but embrace it every once in a while. Um, you've developed such a Legion of fans and followers and created this community, not just through the bars, but also through the publications and a language.
And, you know, you were definitely on that researching forward edge of the wave of this mixology and often, and like handcrafted cocktails. Um, I know that you'll say you weren't the first, but from my [00:11:00] opinion, you were definitely on that coming in wave. And one of the things that I find so incredible is that when you think of, as you said, the investors, you mentioned you did a round of fundraising to grow deaf and company, but not through like the standard.
Way to raise money through accredited investors and all this, you basically open it up to your raving fans and your communities and your, your followers, and really raise some money and it allowed you to do some cool expansion. And I'd love to hear more about that and how, what your thinking behind that was.
And then also see, like, where's that going? How, how does that tie into midnight on tour? Cause I think that's a really exciting story.
David Kaplan: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, so crowdfunding, um, is, is still pretty recent. Um, you know, it's still pretty new in the states. It's, it's a bit around, a little bit longer, um, over in Europe.
Uh, and so it, it really [00:12:00] wasn't on my radar so much in the beginning, we were talking to a couple of massive family offices, um, you know, all of them with, with big capital bees, um, but behind them and, uh, um, w which is to say, you know, billions probably obvious, um, and, and Billy's, uh, and, um, You know, AF after finding my way into these really incredible rooms that just have surrounded by just the wealthiest of, of wealth.
Um, I realized, I was like, who, who really are we to these people? Like, why is this of interest? Like it's flattering? And it's amazing. And it's humbling that there were in these rooms and that they know of the brand and that they're interested and that they believe in some future here. And I did feel like I wanted that.
I, you know, I, I've always kind of felt like the, the little, the little guy, like the little engine that could. Um, and so it, it was really amazing to, to kind of get that for me, that, that kind of seal of approval. Um, and around the same time, [00:13:00] uh, someone approached us from SeedInvest, which is a crowdfunding platform that we raised on in 2018.
And we're on again right now. We're currently live in a fundraiser right now. And, um, I, you know, I went in with probably similar ideas and trepidation that a lot of people would have. Um, and I quickly fell in love with it. Um, and people ask me all the time, every webinar that I do, people ask me, you know, why, why are you in the crowdfunding space versus a traditional, you know, VC or, um, family funds, et cetera.
We're definitely big enough that we can kind of address. Not whoever we want, but we attract a lot, really interesting and compelling conversations. The reason I love the crowdfunding space is, you know what we just said, well, there's a couple of bullets to hit here, but, um, our fans, followers or guests, that the reason why we're alive and kicking today, the reason why we're, you know, again, to use the word thriving, um, it's not an easy industry.
As, as we all know, everyone who listens to this podcast knows we're 15 years in. Um, and each of our doors does better than the year [00:14:00] before we're constantly growing, um, both our NOI and our rev. Um, but by all measures, uh, it it's, it's a great business. The only reason is because of the guests that come through the door and because of the people that buy our books because of the people that follow us on Instagram.
So to be able to offer, to open this up and to offer, um, our fans, followers and guests, real equity in the company, they've helped us get this far. So why not allow them to help us grow and actually. Be able to grow the company with them. And then, um, if all goes as planned and all continues to be able to deliver them a great return on their investors.
Well, having them participate in this thing. So that's my, that's my biggest reason. That's why I love and champion this. It is just so, so cool. And both accredited and non-accredited investors, um, can invest in. So our largest investor invested over a million dollars in the company. Our smallest investors invest a thousand dollars and everyone in between people invest 2,500, 5,000, 20,000, whatever it is.
Um, some other reasons why I love this space is [00:15:00] because we've been open book for awhile now. Um, you know, I read the great game of business, got really inspired and said, we're going to share everything with our company. We also run EOS as we just touched on. And so we try to be very transparent internally.
And crowdfunding, you have to be transparent externally, which is absolutely terrifying, but really exciting. So why not put your intentions out there? And so it is in line with the way that we believe a business should be run. And then as part of that, our intentions are put out there in term, in addition to like the economics and how we run our business, our intentions in terms of where we want to go, how we want to grow, what we want to do, what we're doing now, they're all out there.
So we get some really exciting conversations and opportunities because people are just aware of it and it's publicized. So we were in, um, uh, we were in the New York times, we're in forums where, um, wall street journal, we were in, uh, you know, all of these different, different publications. Um, uh, and then people call us up and say, Hey, I read about you and this and this, I have, I'm a developer here.
I own some [00:16:00] buildings here. Um, and so it can be kind of a catalyst or a springboard for additional growth. So those are kind of my three reasons, three kind of like what really excites me about this space.
Dan Ryan: So. I think what in just talking to you, what excites me so much about what you're doing is, um, before the pandemic, if I talk to any general manager about, Hey, what would make your hotel?
Not any, but most general managers of a hotel, Hey, what would make your hotel really, really profitable? They would say, get rid of all the F and B, right? Because it's, it could be such a, a drain. Um, what was really cool you shared with me is that, especially at the ramble in Denver, I mean you, because of your leading with the FMB and really the B of the FNB, the bar component, you guys are scratching at some of like the top rates, uh, in Denver.
Tell us about that. That's [00:17:00] amazing.
David Kaplan: Yeah. You know, so, so part of this it's, it's absolutely, you know, there, there are two parties involved, um, largely two parties involved in, in Denver. Um, Ryan also there, there's kind of a separate restaurant as well with a fantastic local operator. So the building itself is very activated.
Um, but within the hotel experience itself, it's really the ramble and us, right? So two parties there. And so both of us contribute meaningfully to driving the business and Ryan, um, I always call him a partner, but we lease all this space. He's a partner in an editor, of course. Um, but he's always acted like a great partner in that.
He's understood that we drive, we help drive rate so he can optimize based upon. The attraction mechanism or that certain kind of the guest attraction mechanism that we are this, this, this lobby as being a beacon to the hotel. Um, and in addition to that, we have, uh, we have our lease deal. Um, and then there's a percentage rent deal over, [00:18:00] uh, over our, you know, um, uh, fixed kind of basement, uh, rent costs.
And then, uh, there's a rev share on events. So the more, the better we do, obviously the better he does in addition to it driving rate. So Ryan has gone in, and he kind of looks to optimize rate and ADR on, um, on a very regular basis. So he's been very creative in that. And then we understand that everything, we do benefits him and everything, he does benefits us as well.
So it's a really mutually, um, I dunno, reciprocal and beneficial relationship. And I think, um, you know, most hotel operators, and this is one of the reasons why we got, why we started midnight, a turf, most, uh, most hotel operators, um, uh, don't love F and B operations. It's a different business, you know? Um, it really is even, even though they're, I think very complimentary it's a different business.
And so, um, us having the FNB. With the strong view there. And then Ryan having, uh, this document with running a [00:19:00] small to medium hotels, we feel like we can be this unique differentiator in the marketplace and know that we can find great margin with an F F and B. And he also understands Ryan's background is in real estate development.
So he understands. Um, if you optimize an entire building, right? The more rev you can create from building the higher sale price, uh, that the building can fetch, um, when you look down the line to sell it. So from a real estate side, from an owner operator side, from the hotel management side, he understands kind of the 3d chess of how this all works together or can and should.
Um, and so the folks that say, get rid of FNB, um, you know, there are, it's just obviously what they're not passionate about. You know,
Dan Ryan: I love the idea of the 3d chess, because first of all, I love star Trek and I had a star Trek, 3d chess set when I was a kid. But if you think about the top level of the three-level board on chassis, that top level, as far as how you're speaking about it, it's really.
You've managed to [00:20:00] break away from cost plus to really find the value and like charge people based on how much they value the experience. And that's a super difficult thing to do. What do you think is driving the success in that? And also as it pertains to the small to medium size properties, you know, that 50 to 110 room property, which are often overlooked because I think Natalie overlooked now is the time for independent hotels.
And I think that it's really exciting if you can tap into that value driver and deliver that, like, I'm just, I'm just really curious about how you found.
David Kaplan: Yeah. You know, I, I think we, the truth is we find all of this stuff through, um, being very self-reflected. I was going to say self motivated and almost selfish, but self-reflective um, is probably the nicest way to put it.
Um, I think that everything that [00:21:00] let me step back the best hospitality feels really authentic because it is right. And so when we went and when we created death and co. Um, it was very much like I set out to cast myself in the like selfish, starring role of the customer at Def co what did I want? Right.
And apps definitely absolutely was not created by me and me alone. And anyone who says that I think is, you know, crazy. Um, these things are, are, are the manifestation and realization of so many brilliant creative people, but it, it should be really honest and it should, you should be your target demographic to a large degree.
And there are some business books out there that say that that's the wrong or dangerous. I completely disagree with that. And so the ramble, the hotel experience, the size of hotels, these are the hotels. These are the types of places that Alex, Devin, Ryan, and myself, these are the four, um, uh, folks that really make up midnight, a chart.
These are the types of places we like to [00:22:00] go. The types of places we'd like to stay. Um, the size feels really intimate. It feels like you're almost, and I know you love this term and you're almost an innkeeper, right? It's almost a bed and breakfast, but you'd have a certain level of anonymity that I think is really sexy with the hotel, right?
Like I don't want to, um, I don't want to feel judged when I go into a hotel. I want to feel that level of escapism, whether it's ordering room service for breakfast and not leaving your room until noon, or whether it's like having an extra drink at the bar or whatever you want to feel a little bit of that anonymity, anonymity that you don't necessarily get with the Ben Brevard bed.
Breakfast, we got there. Um, but you also want all of these amenities, right? Um, and all of these personal touches, so that that's ultimately how we got to like this size of hotel, this level of service, um, it's what we want and how we want to experience travel.
Dan Ryan: So if you think about it, there's a book actually, that kind of [00:23:00] touches into this.
It's called little giants and it's just basically, Hey, instead of being so big, let's just do what we do the very, very best and own it. And when I think about that, your 15 years of success at depth and company on sixth street in the east village, the thing that struck me strikes me about it is no one's ever standing.
Everyone always gets a seat. You've managed to create this feeling of, I don't want to say like velvet rope, exclusivity without a velvet, rope and exclusivity. Somehow the guys who are greeting everyone outside, it's like, let me get. Go hang out at this bar right next door, have a couple beers and I'll let you know, as soon as you're in and it's, so there's this exclusivity, but it's totally not exclusive in the sense that just wait your turn because we want you to come in and have a great experience.
Hey, you know what? You might wait a little while for your drink, but just know that these guys up there are putting your heart and soul and passion into those drinks. Tell us about [00:24:00] that. And then also how you're creating these larger spaces, but still keeping that intimate feel of not of non exclusivity.
David Kaplan: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, you, you, you hit it exactly. Right. You know, we try to create really inclusive spaces that are ultimately small and somewhat exclusive, and that we're limited by capacity. Um, and so one of the things that we understood very early on is that, um, th the cocktail space was pretty intimidating.
It's still pretty intimidating. Um, I do this. You can't
Dan Ryan: say that with someone like Alex by your side, right?
David Kaplan: Well, well, I say this in that, like you go to most bars and still I hear today all the time you go to most bars and they're a little arrogant, um, Mo most cocktail bars, they're a little arrogant. Um, there's so many spirits that you've never heard of.
There's so many spirits that, like I said, I do this every day and I taste through tons of spirits. That's not my job anymore at all. It was barely ever my job. Um, but I [00:25:00] still, you know, am around this constantly and introduced to new spirits all the time. There's still stuff on our menus that I have no clue what it is, you know?
And so they're, they're intimidating. Um, and so we knew early on that we had to create something that was super, super welcoming, super inviting, really warm, very gracious. And we wanted to, um, inform without, um, people feeling like they were being taught or being spoken at. Right. Um, and we wanted to have this tonality run across everything that we do from the books to Instagram, to of course the indoor experience, um, or in store experience.
So, um, it starts at the door. Right. And so we think a lot about like, what is the language around, um, saying. We're not saying, no, you can't come in right now, but you can come in just in a little bit. So let me take your name and number. Um, we want to protect the integrity of the experience. We want to make sure that you guys are having a phenomenal experience, not waiting for cocktails, and it's really able to enjoy, um, your night, once we get you inside.
And [00:26:00] people have been really understanding throughout the 15 years. Um, and so we've looked to not necessarily replicate that, but understand work within the spaces that we have. So our space in Denver, we do have some standing, but we'll still manage the door in the same way first come first serve. We do accept some reservations there, but not many.
Um, and then as soon as we hit a certain limit where we feel like it's no longer, very gracious and comfortable in terms of standing versus seating, et cetera, um, we start our wait list. And then in LA we actually built it into the concept. So we have a little bar in front called standing room. Um, and then the main, which obviously as the name would indicate, allows for some standing is much more casual, is a different kind of side to the personality.
And then we have death and co, which is all seated. So we try to find ways to, um, have the highest level of hospitality possible. Well, um, while still being really warm, easy and inviting. Um, and one of the ways we did that in New York. Yeah. This is the location itself. So I always said, I want a [00:27:00] destination with convenience.
So. No, no false entrance, no nonsense, nothing like that. So we don't want to make it difficult or overly, overly intimidating again. Um, and, but we also want to have a little intention, so it's fairly nondescript. It's on a side street. It's not on a corner, it's not on an avenue and you have to have a little intention to go to the place.
Um, but as soon as you're there, we want it to be near a lot of places. So we're telling you, you can't come in yet. Table's not ready yet here. A ton of places in the neighborhood, go grab a cocktail at any of these and we'll message you. And if you can come back within a 15 minute window, great. And if not, we're going to see you again.
Another night, we'll always be here. So we try to find a way to do it the best way possible in every door. And it's different in every door. We try to make each death and co unique and every menu is unique. Um, all the cocktails are unique, so we try to express different sides, different facets of this, you know, little gem that we keep kind of polishing or plussing or tinkering with.
Dan Ryan: And I think that whole experience. [00:28:00] Hey, there's all these other places go. You said before you create this really understanding experience, like, Hey, we get you. We want you to come in. You're welcome. But just head over somewhere else. If you think about, um, well not, you think about what I see right now with all everyone.
So short-staffed people traveling, flights, getting delayed check-in experiences, being messed up. How do you think that everyone can learn from that little bit of understanding that you create an expectation management where it's like, yeah, we want you in just not right now. And here's why it's almost like a bedside manner of making them feel good about waiting somewhere else.
David Kaplan: Yeah. I mean, it seems relatively easy, but it's, it's not, I mean, so much of it is, is, is culture driven, right? It's internal language. It is, you know, um, it is top-down and bottom-up and all of these things in [00:29:00] between, you know, I, I, I have said, and proselytized every opportunity. I said, look, we don't, we don't just wake up every day and, and get to be this thing, this idea of death and co you know, that this, this w whatever people hold us up to beef, we have to earn.
Every single day we have to live up to that. People have always waited a long time to come in. We can never take that for granted. It may feel like Groundhog groundhogs day to us, especially in New York where almost every single day is busy. Almost every single day has a weight, but to them, this is their, this is their anniversary.
This is their first date. This is the place where they got engaged. This is, these are where memories are made. And again, human connectivity happens. Right? So how do we make sure that we're supporting our teams in remembering how special this is and remembering that it is challenging to come in? It is not the best thing.
It's literally the worst thing to be greeted by a door instead of, you know, a [00:30:00] closed door instead of an open door. So how do we manage that? How do we communicate that and how do we change the culture and turn. Um, that's tough. And you S you see it. Um, I mean, you and I travel quite a bit. You see from airline to airline.
Um, I think I, I'm a Delta loyalist. I think they have phenomenal customer service and they put a lot of different things in place to recognize and reward and be incredibly gracious to their most frequent travelers. That's the way they do it. I think they do a pretty good job with everyone, but of course I travel just a ton.
So I see different side of it when I go and I travel on a different airline, um, I'm like, man, they just don't really care about the customers. I might as well be on a bus, you know? And so the, from, from the culture to the, to the, uh, the things that you put in place to support that culture and those efforts, um, it it's, it's fantastically complex.
It really is. Seems like it should be simple. Just be nice. It
Dan Ryan: just be nice. And also let them know, you're trying as best as you [00:31:00] can on both sides. Like you want them to have a good experience. I want the people inside to have a good experience. And actually as you brought up the airlines and it actually for anyone waiting in line anywhere, whether it's a death and co at an airline at the DMV, I think the tremendously missed opportunity is when everyone's in line and the agent or the person at the door is helping that one person.
Do you know how much better it would make me feel if they just, if the people behind the counter were just looked up and be like, I see all of you waiting there. I want to give you the same experience where I'm here.
David Kaplan: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and again, I hate to hammer it in, but that's, that's connectivity.
That is a level of connection. Right. Just looking and saying, I see you. I appreciate you guys. I'm just going to finish this conversation. I'll be one moment. I'll be right with you. And just, you know, that allows people. To, to shed that anxiety and to kind of calm and level set, right? Like we're naturally very anxious, you know, [00:32:00] creatures.
I think I know I am. And so the more we can do to kind of address that, for instance, in like in, in, in a webinar, I just, I just finished a little webinar. We like a webinars seminar. We like to lay the groundwork. Right. Cool. I'm so-and-so, I'm going to be talking to you about such-and-such we're going to go about 45 minutes, nearly 15 minutes for Q and a.
We're going to make sure we get to everything. Okay. Now I'm at ease. Now I can listen, you know, and the same thing is true in these moments of hospitality where it's like, I see you, um, even just looking up and engaging in a quick smile, that's a level of connection and then finishing your task and then resetting and getting to them.
Dan Ryan: Yeah, I it's it's it just seems so simple and it's lost in so many different ways. I want to go back to that idea of. Little giants and just being small, embracing that size and just delivering the hell out of everything that you're doing for your team and for your customers. Um, if you were to take us like to take [00:33:00] defin co in New York city, for instance, if you were to look at the square footage and seating capacity of that, and you look at the number of drinks or covers, I don't even know how you do it in the bar and look at how many you do in a night versus another bar that you just cram them in.
And you're just turning them and turning them and turning them in a way you're, that must be very stressful for you as an owner, because in a way you're not maximizing the revenue, but you're delivering profits and experience in other ways. So how do you like deal with that stress of maybe like underperforming, but dealing the best that you can, or, or maybe you're just like, I'm just, this is exactly what we want to do.
How do you re how do you balance.
David Kaplan: Yeah, that's a great question. You know, it's, that's kind of the fun of the game, right? And that, that is w you know, if you're in this business long enough, um, you have to fall in love with the business side of it. [00:34:00] Um, and so the first seven, eight years of my career, um, I was just like, absolutely obsessed about, and I still joke and say, oh, we do is poor, you know, cold liquid into pretty glasses.
That that's literally all I was obsessed with. And then in the early days, not even early days, first half of my career, I was just like, how can we have more interesting menus, more dynamic use crazier products, like just push ourselves. Um, and it was much later. That I fell in love with kind of, uh, the, the creative challenge of the business.
And that's exactly what you're talking about, which is, you know, we, we, as operators, we have so many levers and mechanisms, various inputs and ways that we can continue to kind of, um, evolve, change, improve our businesses. Right. And it's all supported kind of by the P and L um, by day. And, uh, we know that, um, we want to maintain the integrity of experience, right?
So that's, that's, that's paramount, right? That's that's over here, but then how can [00:35:00] we make sure that we're making our revenue, making our numbers and making our margin, which is, which comes down to your question. And so if it's not a volume game, which we still want to kind of push volume, so we want to make sure that we're maximizing how many people that we get through, um, in any given night, well, maintaining the integrity of that experience.
But then we also look to other things like how can we, um, all in the effort of hospitality, how can we offer them? And what, that may be many engineering. So how can we create more kind of a thoughtfully diverse menus where there's just more interesting stuff to offer? How can we, um, have people add on things to a certain drink?
Um, whether that's food or whether that's just, you know, when we expanded a section or when we extended to offer, you know, what we just, for lack of a better term called luxury drinks, we were like, well, our drinks are already relatively expensive, but why not just offer people crazy baller stuff? We have so much fun stuff.
And if we make drinks with it and they want to order why [00:36:00] not? Um, and so. We're not pushing people to a price point that they're not comfortable with because we have other things on our menu within other price points. We're not, you know, we're not a dive bar. Everything's relatively expensive at death and co um, but you know, you can order a $35 cocktail or you can order a 16, 17 or $18 cocktail, um, or you can order an even cheaper beer or cheaper glass of wine.
Um, so you can find a price point and that's offering them a higher level of hospitality while also, um, increasing your best check average, um, increasing your overall margin, um, uh, and, and revenue. Um, and so finding ways to kind of manipulate all of, all of these kind of various different inputs and variables, you know, you're fine tuning the machine to get the numbers that you need.
And I
Dan Ryan: love that because I have normally I would resent ordering a $35 drink, but you, your team makes it. So like, this is a really special thing about, and I'm like, you know what, that's freaking the craziest thing I've ever heard. [00:37:00] And I'm going to try it and it's my choice. It's not like that's my only choice.
And that's the other thing is every time I've gone in there, I've always had such a great experience, no matter what the end of the bill is. And I've had people go in that are just like, they all, everyone's able to find what they're comfortable with, but you can drive that value. You've really tapped into the value.
And I think that's just so amazing.
David Kaplan: Yeah. I mean, again, that's, that's kind of the, the energy that we now bring to this or the, the, the thing that I love is, is bringing a ton of really smart and creative people around a table and say, okay, how can we solve for X? Right. We have tons of different ways that we can solve for X.
We know that we want to get to whatever it is, an 18% NOI for this business. And we know that we want to drive from 2.2 to $2.4 million next year. How can we do it? Um, do we need to sell more events? Do we need to expand our offers or our hours of operations? Do we need to, uh, expand our offerings? Do we need [00:38:00] to raise menu prices slightly?
Do we need to cut down on our menu, total offerings to consolidate our inventory? Like there's so much you can do, um, to solve for whatever your ex is in that situation? Not, it gets to be really fun. It's not just the doldrums of business operations. It's like, cool. Like there's. Always a way to do it differently and almost always a way to do it better, which is exciting.
Dan Ryan: And I think that that's, what's exciting me about this, where we go next, because I was going to say like, Hey, what excites you about the future? But I want to, I want to temper that by, in this space of 50 to 110 room hotels, which are often overlooked, or even just regular select service hotels about what you've created with Def FinCo and also what you've done at the ramble and through all these fundraisers, um, and the current fundraise that you're doing, what's most exciting about what [00:39:00] you can bring through midnight or tour into these often overlooked property sizes to the owners of them, the development groups of them and the management, or I guess the onsite staff that's there as well to help them.
David Kaplan: Yeah. I mean, I think the most exciting thing for me in it is, um, is really taking a holistic approach, um, and being able to be guided, um, almost completely by, you know, what is best for what is best for the teams what's best for the property and what's best for the guests. Right. Um, without almost any limitations.
And so, because we participate in the ownership of the building. Right. We're trying to drive, um, uh, we're trying to drive value that we're trying to, to, um, to improve the position of the building holistically. Right. And then, uh, for our [00:40:00] teams, we no longer have to have a hard line separation between hotel ops and FNB ops.
Of course, there's going to be individual management and, you know, um, uh, you know, the, the. We'll speak to everyone's area of expertise in areas of operation, but we can say, okay. Um, you know, if it's, I was about to say, and I'll just say it, if it's good for the goose, it's good for the Gander. Right. I feel like as soon as you become a dad, you start saying like really embarrassing.
I don't know, just really embarrassing
Dan Ryan: and making jokes just for the halibut. Just keep that over. There you go. Just
David Kaplan: keep going. Oh my gosh.
Talking about stuff. Um, and so, you know, we, we can think, okay, what's the in room experience and how can we improve that from an FMB perspective? How can we have each thing compliment each other? You know, one of the things that we kept butting up against in, um, in the ramble, because they are separated is, [00:41:00] well, gosh, well, yeah.
How do we integrate FMV into the check-in process and how do we integrate like exciting moments of kind of like delight and surprise into the guest journey. Um, and it's hard to do that when you're, when you're relegated to separate PNLs. And it's hard to do that when management is, is different and there's that kind of push and pull and friction.
Um, and now going in with midnight, a term and saying, okay, as, as a consolidated ownership group, we can go in and make decisions that you might otherwise not make. For instance, Um, what does F and B look like at check-in? You know, so we're going to put draft lines in as one very specific and small example, we're going to put a couple of drop lines in, at the hotel check-in and so it's easy for, um, uh, like almost completely effortless and seamless for, uh, uh, reception.
While they're checking you in to just hand you a cocktail, hand you a, you know, a beer cider, um, whatever it is that we want to have on offering [00:42:00] or whatever rotating elements there. And so to just have these little moments built into the infrastructure itself, I think is really cool and something that very few people are doing because ownership doesn't usually for these new properties ownership, doesn't come from both an FNB and hotel side of it.
Um, and having that representation around the table to make all these decisions I think is really, really exciting.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. I love the idea of the draft line for, uh, Uh, cider or a cocktail or a beer. It sure. Beats like the, I mean, I love getting the cookie when I check into a DoubleTree, but you know, I'd rather, I'd rather get a beer.
Give me my cards in a different form.
David Kaplan: Exactly.
Dan Ryan: Um, as you're thinking about the future and doing this race, like, uh, for midnight on tour, like tell me about it. Like, how much are you looking to raise? What, where are you looking to expand? Like what, what's your, like, what's your tenure?
David Kaplan: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So, um, I'll, I'll tell you, um, uh, our 10 year vision [00:43:00] for, for, and luck, and then because you know, Jen and luck as the parent company for kind of everything we do within our world, including 50% of midnight utter.
Um, and then I'll tell you what the 10 year vision looks like for midnight at Tura as well. Um, The, uh, we're currently at, um, as of this recording. So by the time it goes, go slide, we'll be more, but, uh, we're currently at 3 million, uh, at, uh, out of a $6 million raise. Um, and we're likely going to close out our res, um, in mid February.
And I do believe given the track that we're on and the pace that we're on, we will likely cap out. So we'll likely be fully subscribed or oversubscribed. So we'll hit that $6 million mark. Um, uh, the, the largest use of funds are going to our own, uh, brick and mortars. Um, so traditional lease spaces, reactive and opportunistic deals, largely death and co, but then opportunities.
Uh, like when we found in Portland, Maine, where we bought a second generation bought into a second generation restaurant space. So we essentially paid. Took over the lease [00:44:00] liquor license, et cetera. Um, 250 K key money really well built out. Some only have to put a couple of hundred K uh, into it. So we'll be able to open up a new concept for a 5, 605, 600 K as opposed to near death.
It goes, which typically costs between 1.25 and 1.5. Um, and then within, um, uh, within midnight utter, uh, we're looking to strategically grow a portfolio of hotels. Uh, uh, largely, uh, in the U S if we find any are international deals, great, but those will be reactive or opportunistic. Um, we, you know, we're, we're staying us operations driven, um, uh, and for the use of funds or for this rate is, um, we're allocating funds to, uh, to EMI capital.
So the ownership of the real estate side, and then min editor hotels will be the management solution. So no investment from an editor hotels will continue whether it's our, um, real estate acquisition and a capital's real estate acquisition, or another developer that brings us in [00:45:00] we'll participate through MNA capital in the ownership of that building as well.
And the developers we've talked to so far really excited about this, because it sounds like to us, most other management groups, aren't thinking this way, and again, thinking about kind of the 3d chest and saying, well, yeah, we'd like to put our money where our mouth is, and actually. Um, participate in ownership of the building.
And so having alignment all the way across from ownership to hotel, to FMB operations, and then what our 10 year vision for this is now it's really kind of our seven year vision as we created it a number of years ago, um, on the gin and luck level it's to become the most sought after cocktail company in the world.
Um, and that starts first and foremost as being one of the best recognized as one of the best companies in the world to work for, not just within the hospitality space. So that, and I think is, you know, an endless pursuit. Um, and one that's really exciting and I think ultimately speaks to the quality of product that we'll be able to create.
If we're the best company to work for, we're going to have the best talent we're going to have some of the best product. I think it's it's inherent. Right. [00:46:00] Um, but to us, it also looks like over a hundred million a year in annual revenue. Um, uh, uh, over 40 properties, um, uh, or 40 brick and mortars, and that includes hotel on the hotel side of things.
Um, uh, it's our ambition within a ten-year timeline to have, uh, seven projects open, uh, 10 projects, uh, total, so three additional in development, um, and all of those, uh, would have participation from the MNA capital side. So we would have ownership of some of those we would spearhead, um, to, uh, out of that seven, uh, three out of that 10, um, and have a really unique and desirable portfolio of boutique hotels, uh, across the U S uh, all of them, uh, would be maybe not obvious.
I was going to say, obviously would be independent. Um, the ramble doesn't carry any flag and, and we believe that's ultimately worked to our benefit there so that we can create our own brand standards instead of subscribing to others. [00:47:00]
Dan Ryan: I love that. And then, you know, to hear. Seven to 10 properties over 10 years.
I just feel like that's completely achievable. And I think if you are even able to scratch the performance that you guys have done at Denver, um, I wouldn't be surprised if you know, that's two or five X, whatever that was because you know, you have a track record. I dunno. It's really exciting to see. And I, and I love this independent.
David Kaplan: And we, we love the idea of creating legacy properties, right? So, you know, I think the ramble is even though it's a ground up new build, it looks like it is part of the fabric of, of Denver. Um, very intentionally. So Ryan sourced, um, he kind of went on a mission sourcing brick that looks like old Colorado brick.
They don't make this brick in Colorado anymore. He said he sourced from three different, uh, brick manufacturers in the U S so trying to replicate that look. Um, and so the, the [00:48:00] level of detail and, and the cost, um, that, uh, he put into it, uh, or the costs associated with it, um, are really amazing. And so we want to look to, um, uh, do exactly that.
And every, every new building that we do, every new hotel that we open, we want this. Um, and we just keep saying this word, this, this idea of these kind of legacy properties, these, these things that are absolute jewels and they don't have to be in major markets. So we have kind of defined our group as being, um, uh, urban or urban adjacent.
So it doesn't have to be like, for instance, right in the heart of Denver, it can be 10 minutes outside, um, of the heart of Denver. We believe that we can create destinations, but we want them similar to death ringtone, New York, 15 years ago, destinations with convenience. Um, you know, so not looking at like the bearish model with some of their new properties where it's like a standalone resort where you're really going for that resort experience.
We do want some compliment. Uh, with [00:49:00] the local markets that we're in, because we want to, you know, again, have these kinds of thriving FNB models. And those have to be made up from more than just hotel guests. And I think from a hotel guest perspective that makes it all the more dynamic because you feel like you're tapping into something, right?
So like I'm sitting at the ramble, it feels like I'm staying in Denver and participating in Denver, not just like in this little snow globe looking out. Did,
Dan Ryan: did you ever see this off topic? Did you ever see the movie things to do in Denver when your dad? Oh my God. It's like one of the best movies from the mid nineties.
And I remember you were probably just being born right around then.
David Kaplan: It was important in the mid nineties. How much younger than you? I
Dan Ryan: know, just kidding. But, um, I think its 30 year anniversary is, uh, Andy Garcia was in, in a couple of like great casts. It's uh, 2025 will be its 30th anniversary. I think you should have a 30th anniversary union with Andy Garcia [00:50:00] and cast from things to do and never when you're dead.
I think you should watch the movie first. It's freaking awesome.
David Kaplan: I will watch the movie first and then we'll and then we'll think about the 30th anniversary party. And plus
Dan Ryan: I think in your next book, you got to come up with a new drink from that movie. Um, they had this thing where they were in prison and then they would, they would always hold each other's hands up like this to each other and they'd say boat drinks.
Cause that's how you would you'd have to like touch each other through the prison glass. And that was like their dream to get to the point where they could have boat drinks. So I think that, uh, I see a boat drink in the future, definitely company menu. After you see it and have the 30th anniversary.
David Kaplan: I'll I'll uh, I'll let you know how it goes.
I'll I'll, uh, I'll give credit where credit's due if we, if we manifest this into.
Dan Ryan: Awesome. And then, uh, you know, you mentioned the little engine that could before, which actually is, I think maybe one of my most favorite books, um, One of the things I love it. It was always this belief that, you know, I think I can, I think I can.
I think I can't and then [00:51:00] it changes too. I know I can. I know, I can't. I know I can't. When did you first realize that you could go from, you think you can to, you know, you can,
David Kaplan: that's a good question. I mean, you know, we, we probably don't have time to get into it today, but, um, you know, if any listeners are compelled, um, to, to pick up the first book and read the intro, um, uh, you'll, you'll learn about kind of our early struggles and death in cone, New York, um, and that we were, um, uh, kind of hit by the, by the community board.
Um, and then by the state liquor authority and really kind of felt like it was without rhyme or reason. And it certainly felt, um, beyond my understanding and comprehension, but we were really fighting to survive. For quite a while there. Um, and, uh, you know, it, through those years, it was definitely, I think I can, you know, I think I can survive.
I think I can hold it together. I think I can, I think we can get there, you know, we were closing at [00:52:00] midnight and we have a brief, we had abbreviated hours, we were not making any money. We were kind of just breaking even. And it was, it was a two year, two year fight. Um, and I think I was, I think I was 25.
Um, when I essentially, you know, I kind of had to Sue the state liquor authority and took them to the New York Supreme court. And I was like walking up the stairs and I was like, where am I and what is going on? And how did it lead to this? And what is. Um, but at the same time we were, uh, you know, and it just kind of all magically went away after a couple of filings of reconsideration and me changing, um, our liquor attorneys, a couple of different times.
Um, the, you know, just still, still a really wild experience. Um, but even through all of that, we were just so buoyed by the reception. Um, we were constantly impressed and recognize as this great place to go when people were there every single night, we had a wait list every single night. And so it felt like, I wouldn't say we were doing something important, but it felt like we were [00:53:00] doing something that people cared about and it felt like we were doing something that people want.
And want it to survive. Um, and Frank Bruni was the New York times food critic at the time and bars are not reviewed, but he wrote in his blog. Um, uh, I forget what the title was or it's escaping me at the moment. But, um, he wrote kind of like a love letter to, to death and co to us essentially saying like, um, like your future is in parallel and, and I hope you survived the, because you know, what you're doing is wonderful and, and, and needed.
Um, and so once we kind of got past that, um, once we got past all of that, it felt like we started to gain momentum and it felt like we had sure footing, um, But I, you know, I would even say we kept that chip on our shoulder in a good way for years. Um, and I think, I think that self doubt and that desire to [00:54:00] almost prove oneself is really been one of the great entrepreneurial manifestations or drivers within my life.
Um, and so to, like I said before in this podcast to try to earn it every day, um, I know I can, it feels like a level of self-confidence that I'm not ever willing to necessarily say. I know that we can produce great things. Um, and I know that we can try harder tomorrow.
Dan Ryan: I love that. Um, you said in that story of going up the steps of the Supreme court, where I hope Jerry Orbach from law and order was walking up next to you and there was music as you were going up, and then you were just, before you were talking about the Frank Bruni part, you said.
I think you said something like you're not doing something and that's important, you're doing something that's meaningful, but I say that's bullshit. You are doing something important. You are delivering, um, experience and inspiration and [00:55:00] connection in that warm hearth. And so I, I challenge you to remix that you are doing something important and it's something that's been important since we've been fermenting anything as, as people, right?
Yeah. And it's, it's creating that. So I challenge you to that. Um, okay. So now you're the Dave Kathlyn. We all know and love the overnight success. After 15 years of trying, pushing,
David Kaplan: and going and going. That's how overnight success works.
Dan Ryan: I want you to walk back to those. Steps of the New York Supreme court.
I want you to push Jerry Orbach aside saying nicely, excuse me, Jerry. I just need to get to my 25 year old self. What advice do you give your 25 year old self after you gently pushed Jerry Orbach? May he rest in peace?
David Kaplan: Yeah. Um, you know, I, I, that's a good, that's a great question. And it's, it's honestly a tough one because I [00:56:00] love the circuitous path that I've taken and I love, and I think one of the things we haven't talked about, but I try to talk about in every opportunity or public engagement, any, any time a kid is failing.
And, um, I wouldn't say that I love every time that we failed, but I, they, you know, failure has been a springboard to learning and a phenomenal accelerant to our growth and to our learning. And so. Even though there have been so many, you know, as any entrepreneur knows there've been so many phenomenally hard and dark days, um, I wouldn't trade any of them.
Um, you know, and it would be tough to, to try to reroute around them or give any advice or suggestions that might otherwise do so. Um, but I would, I would absolutely, uh, try to, um, uh, try to impart some level of self-confidence, um, belief, uh, and, and. [00:57:00] Kind of try to find that sense of ownership that took us a long time to take, you know, we, we put ourselves at kind of the kitty table for most of our careers because we were like, well, I went to school for fine art.
I'm not, I'm not a businessman. Or, you know, Alex went to school for history. He's, he's not a business guy. And, you know, we're, we're just, we're the creatives and we're going to stick to our field and, and, uh, limiting yourself, um, inherently limits your people and your business. Right. And so trying to find a way if I could to impart as quickly as I could.
Um, and there's walk up, uh, on the walk up those steps, um, to, to just say, you know, trust, trust yourself on own the mistakes, um, but also own the process. Um, and you'll get there faster then you'll ultimately be able to treat your people better along the way.
Dan Ryan: Fuck the kid.
David Kaplan: Fuck the kitty table.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. Oh man.
This has [00:58:00] been awesome. So, uh, Dave, where can people find.
David Kaplan: Oh man. Um, I try to be super accessible. So, um, anyone listening to this podcast? Um, we will, uh, put up, um, my email. It is D dot Kaplan, K a P L a n@ginandluck.com. Uh, you can also, uh, you know, find everything that we're doing or a lot of what we're doing, um, at death and company, uh, on Instagram, uh, we have a thriving, uh, community.
Love that word on there and, um, yeah, please reach out for anything, everything. If you're interested to learn more about the res, uh, go to seed, invest.com and you can learn a ton about our world, our business, what we're doing, how we're growing, where we're going. Um,
Dan Ryan: yeah. Awesome. And we'll put those in the show notes.
So if you're driving just don't freak out, just log in and you'll, you'll see it there. Uh, I'm going to go check out that fundraising, uh, with what's it called?
David Kaplan: SeedInvest season there. [00:59:00] Yup.
Dan Ryan: I'm sorry. I was just wondering, I think it sounds really exciting. There's that delay again? And I'm just, uh, I'm, I'm really excited about that for you and Dave.
I just want to really say thank you. I know that we talk a lot. We don't talk as much as we want to, but it's always so fucking awesome when we get together and talk.
David Kaplan: It is, well, thank you. It's always fun regardless of whether we're recording or not, it really is a pleasure. And I love what you have done with this podcast.
That is so cool. Um, and I am, uh, excited, honored, and privileged to be on it and a part of it. So thank you Dan.
Dan Ryan: Oh, you're so welcome. And also thank you to all of our listeners. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And again, if this has changed your idea of delivering hospitality and warming the hearth and pouring drinks, please pass it on to a friend.
I appreciate it. Thank you.