Defining Hospitality

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Dan Ryan: Today's guest has an eye for hospitality. She's an industry thought leader she's highly skilled at space planning. She is an associate principal at K T G Y Simione deary design group, ladies and gentlemen, Carrie. Tullman welcome, Carrie.
Carrie Tolman: I am so excited to be here today.
Dan Ryan: I'm so excited to be here too. For many different reasons.
Um, but one of the joys of doing this podcast for me, Carrie, is that, um, like you said, in the prep call, like we've just known each other for so long and we've all been on these different [00:01:00] journeys. And, but within the same world of designing and furnishing and building hotels and. Just so many stories to share, um, on projects that we've worked together on, on projects that just, we haven't, but you know, we all are encountered the same, um, challenges and excitements and, um, I dunno, it's just great to have shared this industry with you for so long.
Just you and getting to know you. So thank you for being here. Thank you
Carrie Tolman: for your time. It's exciting and, and fun. It's just, you know, to friends or the corner of a showroom floor, just chatting it up and talking about life and all the things that it's been
Dan Ryan: going on. Yeah. Well, and, uh, thank you for joining us from Chicago.
Um, Again, see it seeing you in your office, not too long ago, it's just amazing at how much I miss just bumping into [00:02:00] people and just those casual setups and meetings. And, um, how are you doing kind of, as things get back into the swing of things and just going out and having meetings and colliding with people.
Carrie Tolman: You know, I think for me, at least my own individual experience, I had so many projects that were scheduled to open the summer of 2020 as the pandemic and folded. So we were at the height of getting everything green, middle shop drawings and submittals and all of this kind of stuff. When all this started transpiring in February and March.
And so for me, I was out in the field. As early as 2020, I mean, we were coming in and out of the office to do things and get stuff. So in some ways I feel like, you know, there's definitely been some challenges, obviously that the pandemic has given. But for me personally, a lot of my life just didn't change it.
Just the venue, the backdrop behind me, [00:03:00] it was a little bit different, but my day to day was still very much the same. So.
Dan Ryan: It's good. And I, you know, at, at the same time, just always staying busy and skipping and not really skipping a beat, but I, for me, there was this a lot less human interaction. A lot of that had to do with just getting out in New York city.
Right. And moving out to the country. Um, cause I didn't want to endure the pandemic with three kids. A dog and my wife in our apartment. Um, and I just needed some space. So yeah,
Carrie Tolman: I mean, for me very much, there was definitely months of quiet and very much isolation, but. I think I was really blessed in the sense that I had so many friends and family and even coworkers that we all lived near each other.
And so it was right as the weather was turning in Chicago. So we were able to go on walks and meeting each other. And those types of things that I felt like I was still getting the human interaction that I [00:04:00] wanted keyword there, probably one for the pandemic, you know, and giving me moments to walk away, you know, and all those
Dan Ryan: good things.
But. And then, you know, I know we've been in this industry for a really long time, but if you really think about it, like you're a designer, right? How did you wind up choosing. Hospitality designer. How did hospitality design choose you?
Carrie Tolman: So that's kind of an interesting story and of itself. So I actually way backtrack.
Um, I grew up in Clemson, South Carolina, and that's where Clemson university is, which at the time growing up, um, had one of the top architecture school. In the United States, it was in like in a top five, top 10 programs. And I was kind of a serious child. And I loved art, knew that I wanted to use that in some type of artistic expression.
And long story [00:05:00] short is I went to the university on a school trip, fell in love and knew that architecture was basically sculpture and motion. And as I got older, it went into interior design. And so I, at first, you know, went to school and tried to get internships in commercial. And right when I was coming out of school, was it an interesting economic downturn in the commercial world?
And so I didn't get a job right away. I got a job in residential, you know, when you're coming out of school, You know, I just, I want a job. I gotta pay bills somehow. I gotta pay these student loans back. So, and I got into from my parents. Um, and so I definitely, you know, took that opportunity and was really blessed to work for some really great well-known high-end residential.
Um, People. And I was working for Alessandro Bronca at the time, [00:06:00] and she was very good friends with the editor of house. Beautiful. And he had become very good friends with the general manager of the pendants. Love Beverly Hills. Great property. Yeah. And so, you know, I think he had gone there on vacation several times.
And at the time they had an heiress who had gotten, had been living in the hotel and one of the speeds for 10 years. And she had just gotten to a point in her age and, you know, needs that she needed to move into assisted living. And so they had this beautiful, sweet. That needed to be updated and had a great outdoor area and all this stuff.
And so, um, I think just over drinks and all of that, they partnered with house beautiful and house, beautiful tap to Alisandra Bronca to redo this suite. And what's interesting about that property in general, because it's so adjacent to LA and the [00:07:00] Hollywood scene and all those kinds of things. There's a lot of junkets there for the movie industry as well.
You know, different things. So a lot of those suites are very bespoke, um, especially at that time. And so it was a partnership with house beautiful and some of their different, um, vendors and things like that. So I got my very first taste, so to speak of a hospitality suites through the lens of a more residential bespoke luxury.
Um, and that, and I was like, I really want to do this. And there was an
Dan Ryan: heiress involved and Harrison, Harrison faults, like every story that has an heiress, I think always turns out to be the start of an interesting journey
Carrie Tolman: it was for sure. And so I think that was so literally, probably within three, four months, um, An opportunity to recruit a re reached out to me and said, would, you know, would you be interested and maybe [00:08:00] making the switch to hospitality?
And I said, sure. You know, I absolutely. And then the rest is kind of history. That's how I fell into this industry. And if you look at hospitality, I mean, what it is by definition is a temporary lodging, a home away. a Domicile away from your own home, um, whether it's extended stay or, or not. And so those skills that I learned how to make people feel welcome and good within those spaces, um, at a home applied, just in a much larger scale for hospitality.
Dan Ryan: It's interesting because one of my first experiences as a, when I was an intern, Um, at Hirsch Bedner in Los Angeles is they were doing the Regent Beverly Wilshire, which was right down the road from there. Right. And I had to go in with a tape measure and survey every single room and measure every existing piece of furniture, length, width, height, [00:09:00] um, and then also every room and every alcove and because they weren't sure what they wanted to want it to do, but they just wanted to have the data so that they could build, uh, a model around it.
The person that lived in the hotel, there was not an error, but it was Warren Beatty. And I remember, yeah, I got to go check out where he was living. And, uh, the presidential suite was super cool there because also I think that's where like president Reagan would always stay when he was in town. And there were some crazy aggressive artwork of, uh, like dogs taking down deers and, and all that kind of stuff, like a lot of hunting stuff.
So it just like, it was really cool to be in that space and think about. What the cold war was like as he was staying down there for when he was just out in California. Yeah.
Carrie Tolman: I mean, hospitality is one of those things can take you to every four corners of the world and you get these amazing, insane experiences that sometimes you just have to sit there and going, [00:10:00] is this really happening?
Yeah.
Dan Ryan: I also think this all the time. It's like, oh my God, if these walls could talk, you know? Oh, very much so. And then you get into these stories where you talk. I always find the most interesting people to speak to at any hotel or like the head of rooms, right. The head of housekeeping, because they know the craziest stuff and there's like, They'll never devolve.
It's almost like they're a priest as well, or a lawyer, or there's like this attorney client or a priest parishioner, um, protocol where you just don't say, but they'll, they can tell you about the crazy things. And you know, when they tell these stories, it's really just the very tip of what they're, what they're doing and they have to clean up everyone's mess.
you said something that was interesting as you were inspired by visiting Clemson. Um, and when, when you say Clemson, I think of valley of death, which is that's where they play football, right. That's their state. Or death valley, death [00:11:00] valley, death valley, sorry. Yeah. Anyway, death valley, but, um, they do have a prestigious architecture school and I'm curious, you'd refer to architecture as sculpture in motion.
Right. But you're really, I mean, you're a superstar interior designer. Right. So how did you decide. Move from architecture, interior design. What was the main thought process behind that?
Carrie Tolman: Sadly and I was naive. Um, I was a 17 year old and I had, um, I was looking to apply to different schools and I actually, there was an architecture student who had become friends with our family, he and his wife.
And so we were talking about what it would take for architecture. And how long at that time, and in my ignorance, you know, the amount of time that it takes, you know, generally for architecture school, you go for five to six years, depending on the program, [00:12:00] then you have to basically work for a certain amount of time and then you are then eligible to sit for the exams.
And so a lot of. What, you know, the time was like close to 10 years, if you really looked at it, you know, because those exams are very hard kudos to not that ours aren't, but it's definitely a lot more technical and in depth. So kudos to our architects, my brothers and sisters in arms, you know, for that.
And so I just, also, what I really wanted to do was high rise at the time. At least from his perspective at that time said that's more engineering. And I was like, heck no, I don't want to do that. I want to do the more, truly the creative work. And so I just said, you know, I really have a passion for interiors.
And I really like that's, I think where I'm getting drawn to so maybe interior design, interior architectures, where I want to go
Dan Ryan: and. [00:13:00] The hospitality as well. And just all the things that that means is as we unpack these in all these conversations that are happening, um, when I hear architecture as a sculpture in motion, that was really cool to hear because to me, a sculpture is this beautiful kind of edifice, but there's also this coldness to it, this austere kind of thing.
And I like being on the interior side for so long. I think that that's often that's even more important than the structure, because that's the part that the people are interacting with. Right? That's the environment that everyone's touching and feeling and smelling and, you know, having this shit.
Experience within the walls of that.
Carrie Tolman: Well, yeah, but think about where the experience actually starts when you live in New York or any of these large urban environments, think about when you approach them. Amazing, incredibly designed building inside and out. Like you're seeing that experience often from miles [00:14:00] away, right.
And as you get closer and closer and even the details there, and, you know, from the macro to the micro and all those things, and that experience. If it's done right keyword there. Right. Um, if the interiors and the architects were able to come together in an inappropriate way, as you, and even quite frankly, the landscape architect, like all of that has to work together in that experience, that that experience made start several miles away.
But as you get there, All of that is reinforced as you, to your point, as you walk into the doors, what does that feel like? How does that work? Like think about the Whitney museum, just a classic example, you know, that you see so far away, the architecture of vernacular. The landscape issue, come up, go through those doors and everything that's reinforced to how's this beautiful art, but even in the view corridors and the way that the architect position that, but how the design [00:15:00] in the interiors.
Again, it's all about that. It's amazing experience because you're not only viewing works of art, but you're also looking out at incredible use of either the city or of, you know, the river there that you're. You're looking at works of art, both man-made and
Dan Ryan: correct. Well, and, but I'm also surprised it works very well there, but oftentimes there's, there seems to be like some conflict or architects and interiors, interior designers seem to be at loggerheads with each other.
And I just find that super unusual.
Carrie Tolman: It needs to be that way, right?
Dan Ryan: Yeah, exactly. Because, okay. I get all the things you're saying about the approach, but to me, as far as it goes, from my opinion, as far as hospitality and the real human experience that happens in inside once you're inside, um, So, I guess that would [00:16:00] lead to the question of the day really?
Which is like, how do you define hospitality? How did you learn about that definition?
Carrie Tolman: Well, for me, um, I have to start with the roots and the foundation of what I. Word hospitality and of itself. And for me, again, being born and raised in South Carolina, um, Southern hospitality and what that is and how that influences me even to this day, you know, Southern hospitality is world renowned.
It's known for, it's literally a part of the culture. Um, it's the joke, it's the expectation, it's everything. And it is an art. It truly is an art form of how people entertained. And the host and isn't that two degree exactly what hospitality in our world is. And it goes way beyond just, you know, simply making sure your guests has clean towels or a bottle of water by their bed.
It's that [00:17:00] they put a gift basket by your bed that has fit toothpaste, that, you know, they know you well enough or have thought of things that. The gum or the mints, or maybe a snack that you might need in the middle of the night. And it's all of these layers. And you as an, a guest are experiencing having a beautiful experience.
What was that all about? You know, that they major coffee or muffins or something we're downstairs again, it's just this art and experience. And so whether you're the person who's hosting or the per person receiving this. That to me, you know, it was just kind of the basis and foundation. And so applying that to interior design and what we do in hospitality, it's about that service level.
So to speak on everything and to think about how all of that works together to create an experience for the person who's interacting, like, what are you trying to say? What are you trying to [00:18:00] give? What unique experience, because people who can continue to have a great experience within those four walls.
We'll be the returning guests. That's where you get your return on investment. That's where you get everybody the buzz and the beauty, so to speak it's about the experience.
Dan Ryan: And in one of our conversations, it was like, um, I think you said something, it was about serving. At any level,
Carrie Tolman: right? Correct. So service in general, you know, if you think about a lot of what distinguishes the different from select service, as we like to define it on up to a luxury, it's a more expansive surface model, so to speak, but at the heart of it is still service.
And it doesn't mean that just because you have lower service, you're given less attention. When needed and that the details on a thought can still be there. You know,
Dan Ryan: [00:19:00] when you think of, you know, of all the projects that you've worked on in that summer, just, I mean, so many and awesome. But when you think of a project that you've worked on, that kind of captures that Southern hospitality ideal.
Which project. And what part of that project kind of best exemplifies that in your mind?
Carrie Tolman: know there is a. Project that I have had the blessing and I call it a blessing because it's been a very long-term relationship with this client. And with this property that have worked on it for over over 10 years, um, is with white lodging and they have this beautiful property in Wyoming. That's called brush Creek ranch.
And we, again, I use it as a blessing. It's rare, you know, as a designer, You have those projects that come along, like maybe once or twice in your life that you get to be a part of it from the very beginning, like [00:20:00] before, you know, even the property necessarily is, has been bought or right around then. And.
To be a part of the master planning and all of those kinds of things. And it's now this large resort that's been written up as some of the best in the world and its category by Conde Nast and award-winning and all of these kinds of things to be a part of it. Um, but at the heart of it is they really want to create wanting to create this place that people could truly disconnect and reconnect with the people that they're coming there with.
Um, there isn't. PBS and the rooms it's, you know, it's about the experiences that you're going out and doing together. And the focus was really trying to create these environments and opportunities for people to just focus on one and other.
Dan Ryan: And in that pro at brush Creek ranch, when you think of the spaces that you've designed [00:21:00] there, like which, which area do you think best example.
Carrie Tolman: You know, I can't specifically say one thing because it's about how you, again, going back to the experience, you know, as you come off the highway and you hit the. Pacted earth, dirt road and the huge sign and what that looks like. And just as you come into the property, how we laid everything out as a group, um, this beautiful, beautiful, iconic rock and horses in the distance, you know, and how the cabins and the large buildings themselves.
It's tucked in. They don't take away from the view. And yet when you're within the space, the views are incredible. It's about the people that work there and the, you know, white lodging as a company, as a brand. And as they distill in all of their properties [00:22:00] throughout the country of the service model and kindness with the guest and to just, you know, be responsive in that type of a way, um, That no ask is too small, you know, type of thing.
I've, I've seen it. Um, we were, we were with a group and someone happened to smoke cigarettes and you know, it was most of the property. It was a little off season was closed and it was just a small group of employees. And. So one of them kindly got in the car, drove to the nearest town, bought the cigarettes and brought it back.
And it was, you know, it was like 11 o'clock at night. Um, but that kind of service model, um, and things just the extra care, I think that's that people can experience their. And it's also an artist's community, but I think
Dan Ryan: [00:23:00] as you were saying, it's just, some of the words were just like, you know, just very tucked in or this Pactor row.
I just got this real cozy feeling about it. And then refresh. When did that open?
Carrie Tolman: It has been open CA at least 14 years. If not more now.
Dan Ryan: And you were involved from master planning, onward,
Carrie Tolman: our company. I was, I personally. Came a little bit after, but I've been, we've done larger developments or add on since then.
Like I'm working on something currently right now.
Dan Ryan: So that's, that's an interesting place I'd like to dig in a little bit because oftentimes I'll talk to designers or architects and many of them will say, okay, I've done it. And now this is it's done. I'm I'm onto the next thing where. They'll come back for extra work and then they'll see what their intention was.
The guests or [00:24:00] the operations have kind of changed things from what the operations were. And it's kind of cool to see how that evolves and to have such a long-term relationship. I guess what I'm curious about. From whatever was your clearest intention of the programming of the place too, since it's been open and it's changed a little bit, what's been the most surprising evolution of a living, breathing hotel or resort,
Carrie Tolman: you know, there's things that we're not involved in, like the activities, um, you know, and the events, but to just see how that dovetails with. You know, the trials and the experience and how they've brought that all together. Um, I think has been interesting from that kind of standpoint, but I think the heart and the, the narrative that the ownership the owners put together of just kind of like, this is the direction that we always want to go.[00:25:00]
That that has not changed. It doesn't matter if you're somebody who's plotting a hiking trail or you're building a new cabin and what that looks like the. The basis of what everybody experiences is still the same, that hasn't changed at all. Um, but like any property, it's a living, breathing thing, right.
There's things that are gonna work and things that aren't, and there's things that happen that I'll give you an opportunity to re-look at things like one of the things I'm doing now, um, unfortunately there was a fire and a couple of things. Buildings built, burned down. And so now we're rebuilding and we re looked, you know, is a rebuilding the exact same place.
Do we want to move them around? Like, how are we getting people from point a to point B as they've grown and added more rooms? Like, how are you moving people through. Through [00:26:00] the food and beverage outlets, you know, how do we want to position this on the property? And it gave us opportunities to look at things with a fresh eye, which was a ton of fun.
Dan Ryan: And you don't normally get that kind of an opportunity on a bunch of normal you're there and you're you're off. Right? You're done. Maybe you'll come back and do an error here or there, but to go back and kind of re-examine and take the learnings and reapply. Right. That's pretty exciting.
Carrie Tolman: Yeah. I mean, like I said, there's projects that come along sometimes once or twice in a lifetime that gives you these opportunities to, to be a part of everything and to this level and to this detail.
And it's, it's been really, really incredible. I think the other thing that's really fun about this particular property is because they wanted a very unique experience. So grass Creek, just like everything is bespoke. Like each cabin is different. So next time you come, you [00:27:00] know, you stayed at box fifth and then other time you're going to stay at, um, Joe's cowgirl.
Like they're totally different. You get a different experience from that end. And that's fun too, because a different way to like express that Western vernacular and what that means and all those kind of things.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. I'm I I'd love to experience that firsthand. I know, like I just have such admiration for white lodging and just how they run themselves as a company.
And I talk about this a lot. Um, And just from my experience in hotels, like you have these values, right. The core values of a company or of, of a property. Right. And oftentimes they're just like, it's just a poster on a wall. That really means nothing. Right. But I feel with them in particular and I don't know them very well, but I've experienced staying with them.
I've done some work with them over the years, but you can, you know, you can just tell by how they operate that they're very valuable. Whatever those values may be. I [00:28:00] don't even know what they are, but you can tell that they're just a very thoughtful company. Yeah,
Carrie Tolman: we've been, I mean, as a company and as a whole, our clients, we have been really blessed with across the board.
Great client. Really amazing. And who come to us with those strong perspectives, those strong views, strong values, so to speak. And yeah, that's something that when we design with them to try to craft these experiences, you know, we like to say that. What we design goes past, just design. It's the experience, right?
Um, it's everything as a whole to like, wait that in with all the information that we're collecting to help drive what the final design experience needs. Um, and making sure, because at the end of the day, to your point, we walk away, they have to operate it. That all has to work [00:29:00] together. It's not, and it goes beyond function.
It goes beyond how, what is their service model? What does that look like? And do those align, you know, because if there is a disconnect, you know, people aren't going to come back.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. And also just anecdotally regarding them in particular, they seem to be. Whether they're owning or operating or owning or managing a hotel, it just seems like they're very, um, long-term value builders, if you will.
Like, they're not, they're not in and out of assets. Like they, they do really cool stuff and they hang on to them for a long time, whether they're owning them or. Just, or have a management contract. Like it's just like you, they're all, they're always going to be there. They really believe it in pour their heart into it.
And again, I'm only speaking anecdotally from just a multitude of different stories that I've heard. So that's really cool to hear about brush Creek ranch. Yeah. Love that. I actually had no idea they own that, so
Carrie Tolman: yeah, it's, [00:30:00] it's, it's their luxury within their portfolio. It's their luxury property. And, you know, it was just the sprawling resort and it's it, you know, being out there out west where there's nothing around for miles and miles and miles.
Is it an incredible experience? I really recommend it for anybody in every,
Dan Ryan: yeah. I mean, I've never been there, but I've read about it and I've seen it in all in publications and, um, wow. Now I'm thinking differently about it. So thank you for, for inspiring me and giving me a little travel bug to go back out there.
Um, Carrie, as we're going through and you're, you know, Going to work and traveling and like building and designing these beautiful places. What is keeping you up at night these days?
Carrie Tolman: Oh, goodness. [00:31:00] Well, I mean, lots of things are keeping me up. It's kind of an interesting time period, you know, looking back.
You know, we all talk to each other about the problems that we're having. Um, what's keeping me up at night. Um, part of it is the employees and the people that we have. Um, couple things, I mean, in 2008 and 2009, we had the economic downturn in some of the statistics for anywhere from 40 to 60%, depending on the market, you know, People were laid off and all of those kinds of things.
And of that percentage, you know, there is a percentage strong percentage decided not to come back to this industry. They changed their careers, did a different career path, um, and went a different direction. And so we still fill that to be to this day, you know, around the senior designer. And just a little bit above the market is always very competitive because there's less people than there was before.[00:32:00]
Yeah, from that aspect and a way with COVID, we've kind of gone through that. Um, the market is extremely competitive right now, um, and finding talent who, because the cool thing about COVID, but also the double edge sword is it gave a pause button for the entire world. So people finally had the moments to slow down and say, you know, everybody was like, I wish I had.
You know, have the time to kind of investigate this or that, or, you know, really think about what I want to do in life. Right? Well, COVID gave everybody that huge opportunity and you see these, I caught him kind of calm the great American migration, all of these people, to your point, leaving New York, maybe we'll never come back, leaving LA never come back.
And all of these people, you know, that are going everywhere and, and, and the world learned this technology that we've had forever. We can do our jobs
Dan Ryan: from don't forget, people are [00:33:00] leaving Chicago too. Don't just know. I know that
Carrie Tolman: in LA. No very much. Well, they're leaving urban environments in general. Let's just talk about that.
There, they're leaving urban environments in general and it'll be interesting how that shakes out. So, but in general, what is that doing to our staff? Yeah, COVID fatigue is real for all of us. You know, it's not just the experience the day to day, but it's the pipeline or not the pipeline, but the, um, supply chain, you know, our jobs get harder
Dan Ryan: and it's, that's keeping me up at night and I just I'm ignoring it.
Carrie Tolman: Exactly. So I think part of it. You know, in a position of leadership, how am I creating an environment for my employees, to our, our employees to not just survive, but thrive. How do we create an environment that they can come in and fill in a safe space to do their [00:34:00] work? And feel supported when they just get tired with yet again, you know, I've had to re select this thing and go through the rigor Moreau at least five times, because for whatever reason, they couldn't get that material.
I mean, it, it, it weighs on you and when it's almost every single thing, it's a lot. And so I want
Dan Ryan: to, I just want to also say you guys have an awesome team there. Like it's just a really, um, uh, collected. Cool, wonderful group of people on your team. Right. And I, and I'm curious, like if you were to kind of, as you're trying to find more people that fit that mold, like if you were to take the team and have that cream rise to the top of the, and you could distill the best parts of your team, like, how would you describe them
Carrie Tolman: passionate about.[00:35:00]
Sense of humor. He got to have that in this industry is the same old Antish goes, either laugh or cry in life. I choose to laugh, you know, because there's going to be moments where you're just going to be like what the. You know exactly it's podcasts, what can we say? Right. Um, and all of those different things and just laugh about the insanity that is our life in a normal situation.
Right. And so I think sense of humor, willingness to collaborate and to. Be passionate about what you're doing, but not be so hung up with it because design is always an evolution. Um, you gotta be it's. I like to say a little bit fixed skinned to be able to take criticism. And go back and forth and we're not, but just say, Hey, if we find to this and do this and do that and whatever, and [00:36:00] because it's a back and forth in our office all the time, what do you think about this?
What do you think about that? Like, I couldn't sleep last night because I think if we did this, it would just push that over the edge and like being able to do the ebb and flow and. Um, for sure. So
Dan Ryan: I heard you say passionate, humorous, uh, willing to collaborate. I like the willing part. Right? Cause we all collaborate, but how do I like that?
People leaning into wanting to collaborate because each collision in a, in a collaborative effort, I'll usually yield something new. I always like to say that, um, you know, we all have our own ideas, right. And it's really to be around other people where I have an idea. They have an idea or ideas have sex with each other and then make these awesome little baby ideas.
It's the more that we can get our ideas to make with each other. The better. And again, that comes from a willingness and an openness that I'm seeing go through all [00:37:00] these conversations that I'm having with everyone that, that kind of willingness, and also just ultimately being flexible. Oh,
Carrie Tolman: because I think if any company, you know, there's people, there are times that you get to be the visionary and there's times when you need to be the person that.
It gets the stuff done. Right. And that's at every level, there are times when you really are going to get to. Do the creative and fun part. And there's times where it's like, we've got to make this a reality. So what does that look like? You know, writing some of that, a lot of the things that we do on this side, like writing specs and doing drawing sets are not very sexy.
Right. And they're not the cool thing, but they're an essential part of who we are and what we deliver because it's from. The reality comes around about,
Dan Ryan: right? Yeah. It's like a step it's like a, a part of the journey towards the end, which actually from all the stories we've told before there, sometimes there's never [00:38:00] an end.
Right. Oftentimes when you think about, if you were able to like bottle up those feelings or ideas of passion, humor, collaboration, and flexibility, and being kept up at night, like what are some innovative ways that you've found. Like send up the bat signal in Chicago to like attract those types of personalities or do you have a bad signal?
Carrie Tolman: Oh, we have that. We have that. Well, here's the thing you're only as good as your network. Right? Right. And it's about, and I think in Chicago in general, I think in our world of hospitality, it's about relationships. Um, I think the culture for Chicago, it was very much about relationships. We often talk about the R design community and stuff like that.
And there's, there's people that I still stay in touch with. All throughout our country that always happened, say, Hey, do you know of anybody who wants to relocate [00:39:00] or whatever, or people who've moved to New York from here and I stay in touch with them because you never know. They might come back this way.
I choked. We had a couple of people who've moved from here and started working, um, at a particular. At Meyer Davis, I believe it was. And we saw them here. They were here for an opening for a restaurant and I was joking around with them and I said, all right. I sent a couple people your way in a couple of we'll just have this like exchange program kind of
Dan Ryan: thing.
Hey, two great companies to exchange and collaborate with. I mean, but also, you know, going to Chicago, you, after having lived in New York, Chicago, it's just much more. Manageable. Like, it's just, it's a really, I know that's a lake, but really, it looks like an ocean when you're in the right spot. It's a, it's beautiful.
See the other side, so yeah. And yeah, I've always loved Chicago, but I think most. [00:40:00] It's cause whenever I go there, I feel a bit like a celebrity because my, my name Ryan, there's an expressway here. Is it named after you? And I always say of course. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Oh boy. Um, okay, so that, so the people part is keeping you up at night.
You're you have your bat signal of your network and just trying to attract those types of people and finding new, um, What's exciting you most about the future?
Carrie Tolman: You know, like I said, I kind of touched on it before. I think what has been exciting for me and even just to see things come out is COVID really has given us time to pause and to think.
Um, especially for creative types to give that restful space that we need to, to stay creative and to think of different things. And so it's been incredibly fun to see, [00:41:00] um, just some of the, whether it's new technologies within our industry to make it a better place. I mean, it was amazing. The response, if you think about it, how quickly vendors turned around.
To deal with, how do you make a hyper allogenic? How do you deal with a pandemic and a guestroom and people coming in and out? And how do you make people from how you get the word out? And from that, and the positioning from that on down to the physical, I mean, it's, it's just incredible when you think about how we all came together for that.
And, you know, I sat on some calls with NEWH of like putting stuff together and sources that people from NEWH could go and. I not only is this sustainable, but it meets the criteria that it needs to in this situation. So what in specified something, I [00:42:00] know that it's going to be appropriate, you know, for the challenges we have right now.
So
Dan Ryan: you were saying that I had, I had this image pop. Yeah. Like from the movie, the naked gun. And it was basically to really make it work. You got to like RAF people in cellophane before they go into the rooms for you poke some holes so they can breathe, but we're just all so disgusting.
Carrie Tolman: Exactly. So it's kind of, you know, when you really stop and think about, you know, coming and staying in a place over and over and all the people you can kind of go, Ooh,
Dan Ryan: Or you just take it all in humanity.
I'm doing pushups, I'm doing pushups and sit-ups on the floor of my room in the morning. And that, just the thought of that revolts. So many people,
Carrie Tolman: well, as long as the main comes in after you,
Dan Ryan: well, no, they never come. They never come in anymore.
Carrie Tolman: Well, they're supposed to come in between guests, but anyway, regardless, [00:43:00] um, But it's just, I think it's regardless, that's just one aspect, right?
That we can talk real, real time, real world, but just the advancements you see in technology and other things and creativity and art that you see coming out and artists that have had this moment to like really focus and stuff, literature, like in some ways, you know, it could be somewhat of a Renaissance for the world.
If we choose it to be right. If we don't, if we can all, you know, have a little bit of more brotherly love
Dan Ryan: if we have a willingness to a
Carrie Tolman: willingness to and that's. Yeah. Yeah. And
Dan Ryan: I think I have all these conversations. It's the first time I've heard the idea of a willing I've heard open and this and that, but also it's not just being open, but being open and willing.
Right. It's a. I really liked that. So I'm going to just steal that from you and use it more. We need to be more willing. Yeah. Well,
Carrie Tolman: and I think the thing I love about this [00:44:00] industry is it is so diverse and so different, you know, from the middle east to the United States and you know, and everywhere in between and cultures coming together and how.
Like some of the most exciting things I've ever gotten to do was, you know, I, there was a time period when I used to work at Getty's and we had a lot ton of international work and that was 98% of all of my projects. And so I had projects at one time in the S. And in mainland China. And so it was kind of crazy.
I would get on conference calls at 6:00 AM and then work all day. And then I'd get on conference calls with people at seven or eight or nine o'clock at night and work till midnight. I was getting about four hours of sleep there for months on end, but it was so exciting because I was getting exposed to COVID.
You know, if you're doing multifamily, residential and China, the mainland China, the kitchens are different. Well, what does that look like? What do they [00:45:00] need? And all those kinds of things. If you're doing anything in the middle east, the evolution sprays, like the things that you need to think about designing, like making sure that light.
And we're positioned properly in the floor. So you don't light up a dish dash, which is, you know, that's the history, um, the garbs and the, you know, the people were in the middle east. You don't wanna line them up like a Christmas tree. That's not good, especially when modesty is a big thing, you know? And it's, it's fun to learn about those things and get exposed to all those different cultures and ways of doing things.
How ex-pats work in these places and all the fun. And do you know, it can be frustrating, but it's still so interesting. I find humanity. Interesting. That's what I love about hospitality, because it's how we live and experience joy. I mean, think about how many things happen in a restaurant or. At a [00:46:00] bar or, you know, spaz or, uh, you know, at a hotel like, or
Dan Ryan: I could just plant myself at a corner bar stool at Gibson's and watch all the insanity that goes on.
Yeah. I mean, you got professional baseball players, hockey players, wrestlers, and who knows what else going on right there. And you throw in a little bit of alcohol and, uh, it's quite a show every single night.
Carrie Tolman: Very much so it's it's and it doesn't matter, you know, you said Gibsons, you know, it could be any restaurant, right.
Any bar and just like, it's, it's fun to see how all that transpires we live our lives, you know, in these spaces, we really do.
Dan Ryan: My favorite thing to do in the world is just watching people like I'd throw. Trade in my TV for just a constant flow of people going by that I could just watch [00:47:00] and imagine and get energy off of, you know, it's just, uh, I love it.
I miss, I miss a lot of it too.
Carrie Tolman: You ever play the game when you sit there with either a friend or a family member and you try to guess about the different people, like whatever vibe that they're putting out. Oh, you know, he's a doctor, he's this or that. Just to play that game. Have you ever done.
Dan Ryan: Oh, yeah, actually, um, I won't use names, but, uh, I was at the Nat king Cole bar at the St.
Regis with some friends and I think we were just having some martinis and then there's, it has a reputation of having professionals at the bar if you know what I mean? And, uh, so we were seeing, and we were looking at everyone from, from behind. We're like, oh yeah, she's trying to. Pick up him and blah, blah, blah.
And we spun this whole story. And then the, the woman, it totally was, we were totally [00:48:00] wrong. The woman turned around and we all knew her.
Carrie Tolman: That's the best.
Dan Ryan: Uh, that was a, that was a really, really good one. God. That was awesome. That was so shocking and funny. And we were just so off the mark and I think it's a story that I will tell forever.
Carrie Tolman: Well, and I, I mean, everybody's story and how you experience something, even if this exact same thing, you know, comes through your PR perspective, it's your own story, right?
Know you and I can experience the same thing, but because of our background and whatever, we might have a different perspective, the story is slightly different. So, you know, That's how we interact with all things in life, including the spaces that we interact with and themselves. So,
Dan Ryan: so Carrie, um, when you were first inspired by architecture you at 17 years
Carrie Tolman: old, no, I was in third grade.
[00:49:00] You were
Dan Ryan: in third grade. So is that four, five, no, seven, six. Six or seven years old, right?
Carrie Tolman: Yeah. So I was a very serious child and I loved art. That's all I wanted to do. And, but I just was hyper aware probably more so than most kids that, and I, you know, and I think part of it at the same time I was learning about artists and all these artists, these tragic, the van Gogh's, you know, penniless figures and I just list your list.
And I, it, you know, I wanted to be able to pay for. Things in life. And, but how do I do this? And so going to that architectural studio and just seeing the creativity behind it and how that really works. And like I said, you know, architecture is sculpture in motion. It's a living,
Dan Ryan: breathing. If you were to go, if you, the carry that you are today, right here, talking to me, went back to this seven or eight year old carry in third grade, [00:50:00] constantly bumped into each other.
What advice would you give yourself?
Carrie Tolman: Are you sure? Well, if I think of advice, you know, it's really interesting. I have, and I won't necessarily give names per se, but I have been really blessed. I think the thing that's so amazing about the hospitality industry is the mentorship. So to speak that naturally organically happens in this industry.
And there's been some women in particular. Um, who've reached out to me like this industry is amazing. There's incredible people, but it is a hungry, hungry monster, right? It is an engine that never stops. It will take everything that you give it. And then some, um, you have to have a different. Particular personality, I think to survive in this and to be successful.
But I think one of the things they said to me, and I wish, again, I would say this to my seven year old [00:51:00] eight year old self is no one to say when set boundaries, like you can't. The well of creativity will run dry or you'll have a hard time with it. If you don't take time for yourself, like it's our natural tendency to still, you talked to any designer.
It doesn't ever turn off, you can be sitting on vacation and you're sketching something. You know, you're looking in your, with your critical eye while I don't at the hotel. They are so that I don't understand why they did this. Or why Mrs. About, or, oh yeah, I bet this was not what they really wanted. And this was value engineered.
You can see, you see the telltale signs. It just, it never turns off
Dan Ryan: with. Awesome because we all do deplete ourselves and so much. And there's this huge trend rising now, um, for wellness within hospitality and thinking about how you [00:52:00] restore and rejuvenate and replenish, um, when you're feeling drained, um, How do you replenish yourself?
Carrie Tolman: So one of the things that has been great, great about Lisa and Gina, um, we have some Yoda and Gina dairy is, you know, when they started their company, they decided to set a hard boundary that from Christmas to new years, they were going to close as a company. And that was something that they, you know, I've talked to the clients about from the beginning.
And so. Having that time off because our clients know that we're not working. That main thing that needs to be, get done, like in an emergency we're there every, you know, I still was checking email a little bit here and there, but it is the one time of year that I can completely disconnect. And so I tend to try to go somewhere and I tend to go by myself actually.
Um, and I try to go to a place that, you know, it's just. I don't have a lot to [00:53:00] do to like, for my comfortability, whether it's an all-inclusive or I rent a cabin and, you know, I can just go grocery shopping, but I'm not going anywhere. So I have this quiet focus time that I can do the things that I love.
You know, maybe I want to paint. Maybe I want to write, you know, re creatives. Usually we have more than one interest. Right. You know, I think it's finding what. What refills you, I mean, giving the time and the focus to it, you know, some people love to camp or whatever that is, but
Dan Ryan: I think you just said something really powerful that it's really giving the, the time and the focus it's being intentional, because we can all say we want to do these things and accomplish all this stuff.
But if we're not, if we're not making the time, because we all have the same amount of time, but if we're not blocking out or chunking that. Focusing on whatever that is of being intentional outside of work to [00:54:00] refill that creative well, We're really missing out on so much. And I think it's really important for everyone to remember that intentionality is incredibly important.
Carrie Tolman: Well, and I think to like pull it full circle with hospitality. I mean, this is where the mentality and where people are coming in. So how do we as a community. Answer that in a way, how does that now become a reality within design and manifest itself and the way that we do it, of giving people these opportunity and spaces to where wellness and where people can truly somewhat connect or disconnect, give the people the opportunity and that choice.
And I think that's something that's always been ever present, but how do we look at it through the newest lens? And so in some ways I'm really excited to see how all that comes out.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. I'm, I'm really excited by that trend because I think we all [00:55:00] can learn from it. And I think that just like you're saying, there's so many good things that have come out of, um, this pandemic as horrible as it's been for so many people.
Um, I think that pause and thinking about how everything is so impermanent and. We just given that, just being more intentional with refilling our CR well of creativity. I think we all need that or creativity or just sanity, right?
Carrie Tolman: Yeah. I mean, you can't, you can't create if your mind is going 10 million different directions all at the same time.
And so it's, how do you give that focus? Back to it and to yourself, because if you're, if your well is full, you're happier, your environments are happier going back to the employees and all of that kind of stuff. Like it's, it's a full circle thing.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. And [00:56:00] that's, if we're all, well, that's our bat signal, right?
Exactly. Um, I want to thank you so much for your time. Um, Carrie, how can people get in touch with you?
Carrie Tolman: They can get in touch with me. Um, it's through our website. Um, it's just Kerry dot toleman@simionedairy.com. That's one way to get in touch with me. I'm also on LinkedIn can look me up that way.
Dan Ryan: Great. And we'll have it on the, uh, on the show notes as well.
So, Carrie, I just want to say thank you so much for being my guest today.
Carrie Tolman: Thank you for having me. It's been a blast. Uh,
Dan Ryan: it's been great. Um, and also let's not forget what thank you listeners. Um, again, the show has just been so much fun to do, and all these conversations are teaching me so much and making me more willing to, uh, to hear everyone's different experiences.
So if it's helped you evolve, Outlook on hospitality, please share it. And, uh, we look forward to having you next time.
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