Defining Hospitality

[00:00:00]
Dan Ryan: Today's guest is a molder of mines. He develops the amazing architectural designs. He's skilled at sustainable design he's partner and founder at 38 77.
Ladies and gentlemen, Dave Trott. Welcome Dave.
David Tracz: Hey, hi, Dan. Good to say.
Dan Ryan: It's so good to see you and hear you and also to have seen you in person, uh, not too long ago. And I just want to share with my guests on, on the intro, I've known you for a long time. Um, and I think one of the cool things [00:01:00] about how we are together here right now is I was having drinks with.
Another former guest Alia Khan from Marriott at cranes. And we, I hadn't seen her in forever. So it was like our first reunion reunification or one of our first reunifications after the pandemic went down to DC, this beautiful restaurant, which is like, it's kind of, it's really interesting as you know, it's a, it's a smash up between Spanish and Japanese cuisine and culture.
Um, and I had like one of the best martinis of my life there with her any more than one new Orleans, but who's counting, but more importantly, it was just such an incredible way to catch up with a, with a dear old friend. And, and as we were talking, she said that you were the architect here. And I was like, you're kidding.
And then. And then like looking at a whole bunch of other restaurants around there, like right in the heart of DC, I didn't realize how many you had [00:02:00] done. I mean, I know you have a successful practice, um, but it's always interesting to sit in somewhere, have a conversation, be relaxed connect, and then also have known the person that designed this place.
So I just want to say thank you on so many levels, but also for making that reunification with Alia that much more special and you weren't even there, but you were there in spirit. I feel,
David Tracz: I feel like we were, I mean, I think I got a text from you, so I think kind of there, yeah, it was a, it's a lovely restaurant.
It turned out beautifully. Uh, and the chef there is probably one of the nicest, uh, chefs that I've worked with. So, uh, I will, I will have to let her know about the martini for sure. He's always excited to hear compliments for sure. Well, what's the chef's name? Uh, Pepe Moncayo.
Dan Ryan: Okay. Now, so for me, just being in there and having.
Japanese and Spanish mashed up. That's very unique. Um, it is how, how did that
David Tracz: come to be? You know, he had another restaurant [00:03:00] in Singapore, um, which is where he moved from to open this restaurant and it had a similar bent. Um, but I think he took it a little further when he, when he came here, uh, he and his business partners felt like it was just a, it was a good spot.
Uh, DC was hungry for a restaurant, no pun intended, uh, that had that kind of flare. Um, I find it, it's kind of ironic that it's across the street from a purely Spanish restaurant. Bokeria
Dan Ryan: oh, who randomly also it's a friend of mine Jaan, uh, owns that restaurant and it's Spanish directly across the. Yeah.
David Tracz: Yeah. It's an interesting comparison because they have similar dishes in some cases too, which is a one executed in a very different way. Uh, and one executed in a very traditional way. So it's, it's interesting across the board. Um, but yeah, that bay is a, a lovely person and they've really done a good job of managing through the pandemic considering they opened about, uh, about a month and a half before everything started to shut down.
So
Dan Ryan: yeah, I loved it. And then it was just a, [00:04:00] this, I don't know, I felt like I was almost in a Juul box, um, but it wasn't, but it was also so comfortable, but just a lot of glass and steel and, but somehow not feeling so austere, um, but very warm that. So I normally don't just go straight into the project thing, but like that's such a it's so as much as Japanese and Spanish is strange combining there was that glass steel, but also somehow I felt warm.
I dunno, just these, all these juxtapositions going on. How did you
David Tracz: solve for that? You know, I think the team did a really excellent job of marrying that, uh, that balance of sort of starkness with, um, with warmth as you're, as you're noting. I mean, I think you were, you were probably hanging out in the bar area, which has an extremely warm feel to it.
Those, the wood beams above the wood walls, um, you know, all of the soft seating in that area really just make it [00:05:00] feel like, you know, a bar in somebody's living room, a very sophisticated person's living room, but living here nonetheless, um, the dining area can, has a little bit of a different feel. Um, it's a little bit more of a show place of focusing on the kitchen.
So it's a little different, but you know, in the bar it is a very warm space. Um, and they, they spent a lot of time trying to balance all of those components, uh, working through the design of that space. And it's, it's a fairly substantial restaurant too. It's it was about 12,000 or is about 12,000 square feet.
So it's a big space.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. And then, and I guess that's the. The gift of the, of the architect or designer, is that, you know, if you look just within the Stone's throw, if there you have bokeria cranes around the corner succotash, I'm sure knead has other, um, restaurants around there, but you've done so many and your work is so varied.
Um, but it's, and they're also very big spaces. So those [00:06:00] totally
David Tracz: substantial restaurants. Yes.
Dan Ryan: And right in, right in the heart of everything. And then you have just, you know, one of the things I love about Washington DC is so many people from all around the world are just converging on there. And again, it's that Spanish.
Japanese, you name it. Like you're, you're basically creating all these bookends, but creating all these places for really interesting collisions to
David Tracz: happen. Absolutely. And you know, it's funny you say that actually, uh, there was, uh, there was, uh, a dinner, a couple of, I think it was maybe the writer before or right after, uh, you were there with all.
Yeah, she was there with some other folks who were from Singapore, who ended up running into other people who are from Singapore and who all knew the chef from his previous life in Singapore, just pure happenstance that that all happened. So, uh, talking about worlds can literally worlds converging. Uh, it's pretty amazing.
Dan Ryan: I love that. And then also just how varied and different, although just those three different places within a Stone's throw are. [00:07:00] Um, and then not to mention all the hotel work that you've done, um, if, and then that warmth, right. And that those collisions that are happening. I'm just curious how with each of these projects so different, how do you.
Focus on delivering that element of hospitality or how do you define hospitality with having such a. Catalog of work if you will.
David Tracz: Well, I think it, I think the key is that it, it, it doesn't necessarily come from a work. It comes from our personal mindset and the office. I think our, our team, uh, you know, both my business partner and I, and our team all come at it from a similar approach to anybody coming into a restaurant or hotel.
It's, you know, it's, it's about hospitality from the moment you walk into our office. Now, our office definitely feels like an architectural office to an extent, but we treat people the way people expect to be treated in a restaurant or a hotel, you know, You know, do we have, I wouldn't, wouldn't say we have a full on restaurant or office, but we have [00:08:00] cocktails around when you need them.
We have water, we have all the things that beer, wine, um, everybody that would expect to have to kind of keep them relaxed during, uh, maybe a stressful architectural design meeting.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. And I love how you said when you need them. So they're always, they're always at the ready because you never know
David Tracz: they are.
We actually had that. We had a client for a while who would literally walk in the door, walk to the kegerator, pour himself a beer, and then sit down in the conference room. Uh, so, you know, that's when you knew the meeting was ready to start. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think the key with us, with us in general is, is just coming at it from the same approach that our clients do, you know?
Uh, we understand that,
Dan Ryan: right. And then one of the things that I've loved about kind of all of your. Your team and just kind of hearing about some things actually recently I was listening to you were on this business of architecture podcast, and I think you basically, you were talking about [00:09:00] how, and I'm hearing you say that with your team, but also with your clients, just how you nurture those relationships and really build partnerships.
And I just wonder, like, without kind of rehashing all the great stuff that you said there, like, how does that approach transcend everything? Because also for everyone listening, um, 38, 77 is also one of the few firms out there that has more people now than they did before the pandemic started and being in hospitality.
That's. Pretty amazing.
David Tracz: It is pretty amazing. We, we consider ourselves very lucky in that sense. We've, we've really pushed, uh, and made sure that we could come out of this in the right place. Uh, we've improved a lot of things and luckily the clients came back around again, we didn't really, uh, expect that to happen, but it, it has, uh, you know, tenfold almost.
Um, you know, so I think, you know, the, the team as a whole, [00:10:00] we sort of focus on that, uh, making sure that we're driving in the right direction at all times from a hospitality standpoint. Um, shoot, what was the question again? Remind me.
Dan Ryan: Yeah, that's fine. Like, so you're nurturing these relationships, right? For not just with clients, but also your team, what their relationships are like, look, I feel like.
Every business is relational at a certain level, unless you're just clicking and buying something business to consumer. Maybe, maybe you have developed a relationship with the graphic that's in front of you on the website, right. It pulls you in it, it hypnotizes you and sucks your sense of self out of yourself and just makes you push click.
Right? Um, you get hypnotized, uh, but on, in most businesses are all relational. Uh, I find that the hospitality businesses of all the people I've been talking to, and just from my experience, I think the volume gets turned up on the importance and depth of those relationships. [00:11:00] Um, so the question was from nurturing those relationships, what you're really doing is building partnerships, not just with your clients, but also with your team.
And like, how did, how did that, how did that awareness develop within you? And like, how did you become aware.
David Tracz: You know, it's funny you say that. I mean, honestly, it's been, that approach has been both my business partners and my approach for our a long time. Um, you know, we, we want to make sure that we're sort of working with our clients for as long as we can.
So it's, it kind of gets back to the hospitality thing. You, you, people are coming to a hotel, you want them to stay for as long and come back again. And that's exactly the approach that we sort of take. Uh, and you mentioned Knead earlier. We're on restaurants like nine and 10 with them. Uh, we've also worked on both of their houses.
Uh, they [00:12:00] bought one and sold one, bought a new one were working on one currently. So, you know, it's just, you know, to a point where you're just becoming friends and, you know, the word. Almost like a by-product of it, but it becomes more fun too, because you're, you're working on something that you love doing.
They love doing it, and it all comes out kind of beautiful at the end. So I think that that approach really makes a big difference. Um, so we, uh, you know, I think we really focus on just building that relationship, talking to them. It's not about the job. It's about us working together. And, you know, I think we've, always approached projects, business development, everything in that way.
So, you know, we'll get to know, people will know them for like two or three years, and I don't expect work. I just hope that it's going to come eventually because we're good at what we do. And we like to execute on beautiful projects. [00:13:00] And, I think that mentality is just, a better way to look at things.
It's, it's less stressful for sure, because you're not constantly trying to like sell the next thing.
Dan Ryan: Um, how do you, when you think about that idea of becoming friends with them, because it's more than the transaction. Right. And I totally agree with you. How do you know, in the course of that, you know, the dating to maybe you're doing your first project or two, how do you know when you've crossed over into that friend or you've gotten to that deeper place?
David Tracz: It's an excellent question. It's taken time, uh, in most cases and, and honestly, I, I couldn't tell you where everyone kind of clicked. I don't know if that makes sense, but you know what I think. Maybe I can't put my finger on it sometimes, you know, I've had a client in the past. I've had clients in the past where, you know, you feel like you're just working together and working parallel for a long period of time.
But there's like a feeling when that [00:14:00] shifts, when you start to connect on something, that's not work-related. And I'm remembering a client of mine at my previous firm who we had worked together on a project for maybe like three or four months, we were just sort of talking and, you know, he hit on something about wine.
He had, he was a Brit, but he lived in California for a long time. And you know, as soon as you started talking about a wine and. He knew, uh, I'm a big fan of wine across the board. He's lived in Napa valley for awhile, but we started clicking on that and it was almost instantaneous where you were like, ah, we're in, you know, I can, I can see now that we're going to get where we need to go.
Um, and actually, you know, I'll, I'll use this other anecdote with the, with the need guys. Um, and they may or may not remember this, but we finished succotash and succotash was a challenging project. It's a, it's a beautiful restaurant. It's in a historic bank building. It's very unique for DC in that it's historic inside and out.[00:15:00]
It's one of, I think, 11 properties that are like that in the district. And so we, it was a slog to get everything built and constructed the way that they wanted to, you know, the, the mezzanine that you, if you were, if you've been in that space, the mezzanine wasn't part of the re of that space, we actually had to get them to let us put it in.
Oh, I didn't realize that. So yeah, now it looks like it was supposed to be there. Right. So, um, it worked very well in that instance, but by the time we got to the end of the project, they were at opening and I came with, I came, I had asked, uh, one of their, uh, their kitchen designers is a friend of theirs for a very long time.
And I asked him if he knew what their favorite wine was. And he was like, hold on, you asked, there was some way. And she got back to me. So I, I just came to the opening with a bottle of their favorite wine. And I think, uh, Jason has probably one of the best lines from that. When I handed it to him, he was.
After everything we put you through, I just thought it was the funniest response. Totally. [00:16:00] But I was like, yeah, I mean, this, this is we're on the same page. Right. You would do this to a guest in your restaurant. So why wouldn't I do that for you here? Um, so, and, you know, since then, I think we've, we've been out, uh, my girlfriend, Wendy and I, and Jason and Michael been out to dinner a number of times just because it's just nice to chat.
Right. So it's truly becoming friends with your clients and you know, it, it takes time and it takes effort. Uh, but I think it results in a better dynamic.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. As you were saying that, um, you guys kind of gave three examples, right? There's the slog, right? It's the, oh my God. We going through hell to get this thing open.
Yeah. Then there's this. Kind of shared interests. So you have you find out these shared interests and then there's these moments when you're in the middle of it, where you kind of take a pause and you can be kind of grateful and intentional and just kind of in [00:17:00] the moment with them. And I feel like each of those are kind of these crucible moments where, you know, these collisions are happening, but it's also that ability to kind of step out and be able to express gratitude because look, every project throws its own unique things, but if we all know that we're going to get it done and we get it done and it is hard, but we have managed to have fun.
There's this kind of place where we can all be appreciative of each other. And that's kind of where it is for me, because like we all have each other's back. And then once I feel like once you get over that, Humper get past that datum or over the line, whatever metaphor you want to use. It's. It's almost like it becomes this foundational relationship, right?
It's like you said, a friend, you have those friends where, okay. You don't see them or talk to them for 20 years, maybe 20 years along in five years, 10 years. But then as soon as you reconnect, it's just like you picked up right where you were, [00:18:00] but it took a lot of work to get it to that.
David Tracz: Yeah, I think, I think it's a lot of trust.
It's a lot of respect. It's a lot of like knowing who each other are and, and respecting each other too. I think that all across the board, I, I can't put my finger on all of those things, but you just know it, right. I mean, that's, that's the part that I love the most is that, you know, at that point you're like, all right, uh, you know, we, we both trust each other.
We know what's going to happen in this sort of work relationship and this friend relationship. And, you know, I'm going to follow through, through everything and you're going to follow through, through everything too, and then just a better relationship. Um, and then. It means for a strong trust. And I think, uh, you know, I worked for a previous firm.
We used to use the term trusted advisor and for a long time, I didn't really get, I kind of understood what it was, but it felt like just a strong business term to me. You know, I, I mean, I think it's just a business term for a [00:19:00] friend, right?
Dan Ryan: Yeah. But yeah, because it's like, it's that, um, the friends aren't going to hold back, right.
They're going to let you know really where it's like, you always know where you stand. There's not like you're wearing a mask or you have to masquerade about something. It's just, you're just there. Yeah. Yeah. So then going to that idea of nurturing these relationships and building partnerships, and then looking at it through that filter of a friendship, which I know so many people, like they don't want to be friends with the people that they work with.
They just want to do the work and be done. And that's okay. Yeah. I agree. As someone who's have, who has such a. An amazing catalog of work within the hospitality industry. Like how does that idea that through that lens of friendship and, and all of your creations that you've completed or in the middle of like, how do you define hospitality?
David Tracz: Oh man. Well, I mean, I think that's where it [00:20:00] gets back to that whole conversation of being friends. And, uh, you know, I was, we were, we were having a conversation with a, uh, business consultants of ours the other day about, you know, being able to just talk to your clients in a way that you're open and vulnerable with them about what you're doing and how you're doing it.
I mean, it's, it's all, uh, this whole process is all about creating a beautiful space and making sure that you're able to do it successfully and. Uh, you know, I don't know. I mean, be open about that work, right? It's not just a for, I guess it's not just a job. It's just being, it's being a part of the creation of something.
Dan Ryan: I don't know. One of the things that you were saying, just being open and vulnerable. So in this kind of learning about hospitality, which really would this podcast for [00:21:00] me is it's kind of helping to fill in with that gray w it's making that gray area of what hospitality is, uh, darker. Cause I don't know if there's a binary answer, but it's really, um, this thread that runs through everything is this idea of openness and vulnerability.
And one of the things that I've always enjoyed speaking to you about over the years, it's just that idea of like culture and how do you build that and how are you aware of it? And I think the only way. That you can be aware and build and create culture is if you are, and the people you surround yourself are open and Boulder.
David Tracz: Absolutely. I think our staff as a whole, I think we're, we're, we're all very open to talking about things across the board. I mean, uh, our company is, um, you know, very much open book to the, to the rest of the staff. You know, everybody knows the fee proposals. Everybody knows what the, um, how things are going.
And I would say even during the pandemic, we're probably more open and honest than we've ever [00:22:00] been with people. You know where we're saying, you know, this is where the money is. This is where the money's going. This is what hopefully is coming in. So we can survive this extravaganza. Um, So I think that that's key that we can all have that open and honest conversation.
I mean, where Dave and I are very clear with everybody in the office, like we're still learning every day. Um, you know, we, we may or may not have the right answer, but you know, we're going to try something and if it works, we're going to go with it. If it, if it doesn't, then we'll make adjustments and continue to go from there.
So it gets back to that kind of gray area. I think, learning and understanding that you can live in a gray area for a little while and maybe be, um, and maybe that's okay. And B be a understanding of that. And, uh, and that we're all kind of helping each other to go forward. Um, I also think that, you know, one of the things that we profess around here is that, you know, that the entire office is the team, right?
We're w the team may have to be a leader one day and a follower of the next, um, [00:23:00] but we're all going to get an opportunity to do something really cool. So. Let's let's just all work together and literally be one giant team to continue to move that forward.
Dan Ryan: So as long as everyone has an opportunity to be BA Baraka real 18, because that is
David Tracz: the jam.
Dan Ryan: Um, so I wanna dig into that open and vulnerable thing. Again, our idea, and especially as maybe with let's go to a client before they become a friend, so maybe it's a first client, maybe you've done one or two projects with them. Can you give an example of one of those of an early client where they were open and vulnerable?
Like maybe you were, you were contacting things, but somehow, maybe it wasn't driving. You became, they became open and vulnerable. You met where, where the project needs to be. You [00:24:00] found that place and then it proceeded into a deeper.
David Tracz: Interesting. I mean, I think the two, the two that I've given already were kind of the best of the best because they are sort of good, really good friends now. Um, and you know, I think, well, so I'll, I'll, I don't know if this is going to be as far along as possible, but, you know, I actually just had a meeting this week with, uh, it's not quite exactly this example, but, um, I had a meeting this week with a project, a client that I had worked with in 1999 when I had just graduated college, uh, on his house.
And, uh, we we've stayed in touch with, um, the contractor who built it and they, uh, he's decided that he wanted to do some further renovations, uh, There was a, there was actually an, a renovation in between, um, and they called and they were like, Hey, you know, now that you have your own company, would you be interested in working, [00:25:00] uh, through this?
And he really wants sort of a restaurant field. So that was kind of, uh, a good dovetail into this. It's a kitchen, it's a bunch of other things. Guys got an amazing art collection. Um, and you know, it was like, it was so funny cause I was like, well, 99, all right. That was a long time ago. Let's go, let's meet.
And, but it was kind of like you were describing earlier, like the old friends aesthetic, like we walked in and the first like 10 minutes and he was like, all right, remember we did that in 99, we decided to do this. And we did that. And he was like, tapped me on the shoulder. Like we were, we had been hanging out since 1999 until now.
Um, like it was like an instant reconnection of like, all right, we need to get back into this. And we started talking about what we wanted to do. And it was, it was interesting because, uh, At that time, I felt like we were very in sync. Um, and when we, when he started sending, I did actually, while, while I was, uh, with you in Vail, I was sketching some ideas for this house.
Uh, he sent [00:26:00] some sort of look and feel images that he really loved to through the contractor to us. And it was like, almost like everything was like this, like his imagery and what I was sketching was like, almost exactly the same. So it was, it was very clear that we had kind of hit, uh, uh, the right synergy.
So it was kind of nice to be back in that zone again. Um, and just feeling like you had, we had connected on that, on that level that you're describing at a time when, and I'll be honest at that time in 1999, I wasn't really fully prepared for doing that kind of work. Right. Residential is a very purple personal environment.
Totally. And. Uh, which is why I stopped for awhile. That's why I went to OpX. That's why I went to a bigger company. It was to get away from that. And now I feel like our, our company now is even more geared towards that than it's ever been, because it is residential is a lot like hospitality in that sense, and that you really want to work with their clients in [00:27:00] a way that you, you don't and like commercial interiors or office space, you want to become friends.
You want to understand how they live. You want to get a sense of what they want the remnant space to feel like. And I, that's where I think hospitality and residential blend. And I think that's where a restaurant blends in. And that's why everybody wants their office space to feel like hospitality. And because it has a feeling.
Dan Ryan: Yeah, I, it's interesting to hear you say that, cause I haven't really spoken that much about, um, the hospitality versus the residential, but whether you're doing hospitality or commercial. Or hospitality, commercial or restaurant. Let's just go with those three or any kind of commercial design. You have a, this psychographic of who's going to be there, but it's, it's again, going back to that gray area, right.
It's a pretty broad, but narrowed enough in focus on like, who's working here, who's visiting here. [00:28:00] Um, what do they need? What are their needs? How do we nurture those needs? Right. But it's. It's not so binary, whereas in residential, it's, it's totally binary because you have to get into their brain and psyche and really break it down.
David Tracz: Yeah. And understand how they want to live. All the understand, like you get into habits and what you do and don't want. And uh, sometimes you say you don't want something, but you kind of do like, it's, it's, it's very interesting, but I, I, I've always equated restaurant a lot to residential in that sense, because it is a lot of times it's the first time they don't really know what they want.
It's somewhat personal. Um, it's not all, it's not all of it, but it's, it's a lot of it.
Dan Ryan: And if you, okay, so then if you, this is really interesting. So if you were to take the residential work that you've done on one side, and then the commercial work you've done, which one do you think informs the other one more like which, which, which, [00:29:00] which side of the scale learns more from the.
David Tracz: You know, I, I feel like it's just a constant back and forth between the two of them. I feel like, uh, hospitality used to be sort of aspirational in some ways for residential, but now I feel like residential is kind of blown by that and hospitality is trying to catch up in some cases, um, which I find fascinating.
Dan Ryan: Can you give an example just
to
David Tracz: walk our listeners through? I think in, in some cases, like the way that residential picked up speed in the world of, um, you know, television and, and other components, it really started to have a lot more of a life of its own. From a design standpoint, there's a feeling that people want.
There's a look that people want that you see replicated a lot. Um, and I, I feel like. Started now to kind of swing back and start to push hospitality and hotel, [00:30:00] especially to feeling more like, uh, more and more residential and more and more of that, you know, whether it's plants or, you know, uh, adding technology, that's similar to your house.
Like, I, I can, you can have your house fully automated very easily. And I think hotels now are like, whoa, we can do this. And, and, you know, they're taking more tentative steps into that because they have more iterative challenges, you know, when you gonna do that in your house, it's, it doesn't work. It's no big deal, but if you do an a a hundred hotel rooms, it's a big problem.
So, um, but by the same token, I think that there are some key elements that are kind of floating back and forth between the two of them, um, that hotels are trying to execute and one way, and, uh, residential is executing it and another,
Dan Ryan: and then looking at. Kind of ongoing dialogue between residential and hospitality.
If you think about, um, [00:31:00] all those, again, crucibles of this interaction and like all this new stuff is coming out. Right. Um, are any of those giving you concern going forward?
David Tracz: I mean, in, in, uh, in what way? Like big brother's watching kind of way or?
Dan Ryan: Sure. That's all. Okay. So that brings up a really good story.
I remember, I don't know if it was 10 or 15 years ago. It could have been 10. I was watching 60 minutes and there was this American who I think was a pow in North Korea. He wound up staying there, having a family and they did a whole story on him. I think he's since passed, but there was this little speaker, like a, it would be in our edge in our like, Classrooms growing up with the little felt speaker cover, but it's a big wooden box up there.
And it was like the Supreme leader would, or the news would just be going in and you could never turn it off, but there would always be there. And I assume it could listen. I remember looking at that 10 years ago and being like that is [00:32:00] so crazy. How can anyone live with that? And it's forced upon everyone now.
It's like, we're welcoming all of this into where we are every day. Yeah. It's like we volunteer it. Whereas it's so crazy to me that, you know, it's like that, um, the frog that's in that he put in boiling water they'll jump right out. So that was my first experience. But now it's like, Hey, w we have an echo or an Alexa or a whatever, or an iPhone.
I dunno, it's the water is just slowly been getting warmer and warmer
David Tracz: all day every day. Right? I mean, I think, I think that that's there. There's always going to be like a push and pull of wanting things to be tailored to all of our individual likings. But also yet you can't have that without eliminating or giving away some of your privacy of what you are, what your individual likings are.
Right. So there's always going to be sort of that push pull. Um, I will say I've been surprised how much people are [00:33:00] willing to give away things really, without even thinking about. Uh, about what the larger implications might be, but you know what I mean? Hey, is it worth it? So that I walk into my hotel room and the TV's on the right channel, the temperatures at the right place.
And the, uh, and the lights are just dim to what I want them to be. Maybe, um, you know, providing, they're not also tracking, tracking my retirement savings and like all this other stuff, but yeah, I mean,
Dan Ryan: I remember the first conversation I had on the pie, like the first podcast I recorded with the Shar. And he was like, why can't when I check in somewhere or when I.
Why can't they just asked me what temperature, I like my room so that they know when I'm coming up and my room is that temperature. And I was like, that just seems really easy. How come we haven't gotten there yet, but I'm sure
David Tracz: it's coming. Oh, it's coming. Yeah. Oh yeah. The, the level of technology that they're putting into guest rooms, uh, potentially, I assume that's going to kind of flow down from luxury down through, uh, to select service, but, you know, I mean, right [00:34:00] now, as they get more and more advanced, it'll become much, much easier.
Dan Ryan: And then if you think about the projects that you're seeing on the residential and on the commercial side and specifically hospitality, as it pertains to technology, what's exciting you most about the future?
David Tracz: You know, I, I, I, I am excited about that. The connected rooms and how, how they are. You know, more versatile and how I can kind of control it when I walk in the room.
I think I like that idea, but I also, you know, there's some, there's some nervous components of it too. Um, you know, but I also think that a lot of that's going to start to push towards, um, you know, being more sustainable and using less energy across the board too, because now you're going to end up being able to tailor things a little bit easier.
And that means it also means that the hotel can control things a little bit easier too, so they can become more efficient about, [00:35:00] you know, when the room is occupied and how well it's running and just being more efficient about what that room is going to be like all the time. So I think there's upsides and downsides to it.
So, but I I'm excited either way of where it's going. Um, I love the fact that now lighting, especially lighting technologies are changing in such a way that becoming they're they're becoming so small. That can be so. Much better integrated into Millward case goods, flooring, um, you know, ceilings, that kind of thing.
Um, I'm excited to see where that's going to continue to go and, and grow from because it's just, it just adds opportunity when you can kind of put it in new places.
Dan Ryan: I was so funny. I heard you say integrated and I was at, out to dinner during one of these independent, I think it was independent lodging Congress down in Miami.
And this, I think his name was Dan, but I don't remember his first name. Exactly. But he was introduced to everyone like this is Dan, the integrator. He [00:36:00] integrates technology and I was like, wait, you integrate technology. But now if you think about it, it's probably one of the most impressive. Things, as everyone is talking about it and to be an integrator of technology to where it's really seamless.
And then we can get back to focusing on just being present kind of a cool place that
David Tracz: we kind of need to be well. And I don't know if you've seen like, You know, during the pandemic, a lot of restaurants move to like a QR code. I just don't. I forget, I forget the term. I just heard the other day at swarm.
Uh it's it's like a, it's called like a swarm process. So rather than having servers, you have a series of people that are both servers and servers, and then you just use a QR and then you start a tab, you close the tab, but those people that sort of swarm around are there to give you help advice. They're sort of like acting like a server, but clearing your table at the same time.
Um, and it's kind of an interesting, delicate balance. And that's how technology has been really integrated and, [00:37:00] and sort of the restaurant world, when everything went to a place where maybe you didn't want to have as many servers around as possible, or couldn't have as many servers around because they weren't there.
Dan Ryan: Well, that's another thing. And another thing thing that keeps coming up in these conversations is if you think about innovation and when innovation comes, it's usually, you know, necessity being the mother of all invention. It's when these constraints are put on us, right? Yeah. So actually I know you grew during the pandemic, which congratulations again, but like, what were some of the biggest constraints that helped you grow as a business, but also personally,
David Tracz: I mean, well, I'd say, I'd say it wasn't really a constraint.
We just have a lot of free time for awhile there, you know? And in some cases towards the middle of the pandemic, one of the things that we did internally was, um, we put together a list of everybody put together a list of five things that they thought we could improve in the [00:38:00] office. So we then boiled those down to like the top 10 things and basically had set teams, gave them project numbers and, uh, set people assigned to solving those problems.
Um, you know, one of them was our project folders were a little confusing. So we scrapped our project folder structure and did a whole new one, which everybody bought into. And it now is our process moving forward. Um, you know, I think, I, I think that it, it wasn't, like I said, it wasn't really a constraint necessarily.
It was just that all of a sudden we had, we had time to come up, turn around and look at the business and a little bit more of a, uh, you know, different light.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. You could work on it rather than
in
David Tracz: it. Yes. Right. Which is not something that you have an opportunity, all that all the time. That's part of the problem.
Totally. You're always moving a thousand miles an hour and you finally get to look at it from a different vantage point and you're like, oh, we should fix [00:39:00] this.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. It's nice. Because so often, you know, it's starting up so many companies and just having friends that have it's, it's almost like you're building this airplane while you're taking off.
But it's also as entrepreneurs, I feel like we're all the airplane has never
David Tracz: built. There's maybe two wings and that's about it. We're kind of floating. I dunno if we're going to be able to land, but it's fun. That's the best part. I think when we first started this, I was, uh, my business partner's wife was asking, or I was, we were talking about, she had, had her own business for a long time.
And, um, you know, I, I told her that I felt like it was riding a bike downhill with your hands and legs out to both sides, hoping you're not going to crash.
Dan Ryan: And it's actually a casting opportunity for the movie jackass.
David Tracz: I didn't run off a jump and land on something, you know, but I, I think that, that in the grand scheme of things, [00:40:00] that was the one big upside to the pandemic.
Look, it, it sucked for a long time who knew that we were going to. Survive per se. I mean, I think we, we did change our structure. We went towards more residential for a long time. We, um, we were lucky enough to have a couple of clients, but we had one project that was, uh, a courtyard in Louisiana that they had some money, so they would release us by phase.
So they released this first schematic design. We worked on that work for a month. We paused for two or three weeks, and then they were like, all right, we think we're going to be okay, let's go to D D. So it was like, it was almost like we were all on this. So our own slow burn to get through the, to get through the pandemic and similar with some restaurant projects.
Um, and you know, we were lucky enough that the end of the pandemic started to pick up speed with restaurants because there was, you know, as I'm sure you had in, in your neck of the woods, there was. [00:41:00] There were some restaurants that fell out of that and some great locations that suddenly opened up. And, uh, you know, we were lucky enough to have a couple of clients that did, did figure out how to make some money during the pandemic.
And they were like, well, the leases are good. This is a good opportunity to strike. Let's let we can generate some cash. Let's do it. So, um, you know, that was sort of a good thing, uh, in that sense. And then, you know, at the same time, we also took some time to look at staffing and who we, who we wanted to hire and how we wanted to hire and some opportunities came about and that also worked out.
Dan Ryan: Yeah, it's funny. Um, it's also kind of, um, just a perspective thing as well, because, you know, as you were talking about leases and things coming available through the pandemic, there's these, there's the companies that are, that are growing and being opportunistics and the ones that are being defensive.
And I read, I read a book by Danny Meyer. I think it was called setting the table. [00:42:00] It's amazing. Right? It's
David Tracz: so good. A salt shaker is probably my favorite, but anyway, well,
Dan Ryan: he is amazing. First of all, second of all, um, there was this idea where I think it was his dad. I think it was his dad, but it had to do with Lisa's cause Lisa's are just like long-term liabilities, right?
He, his dad, I think actually taught him to look at them as assets, because if you have that restaurant in that spot on a long-term lease, no matter what happens, it's still going to be wanted. So instead of looking at it as a liability, look at it as an asset and that's totally wacky from an accounting perspective, but it's also.
Look a way of looking at things from a, from an abundant perspective.
David Tracz: Yeah. Well, and I think he had other opportunities there too, where he was talking about like going on the offensive instead of being on the defensive in a downturn. And I'll be honest, I think that was kind of our, uh, one of the biggest mantras we were like, all [00:43:00] right, what else?
So the five things, how can we improve those things? We also looked at other things that we needed to do internally that, uh, that could help us on the outward facing side of things. We added a rendering software. We added like, you know, just little changes, um, that could, we knew would help us on the, out on the outcome.
Um, and, and it has dramatically. You know that the rendering software we added, you can, I can send you a QR code. You can scan it with your phone and look at the rendering in your phone. It's amazing.
Dan Ryan: It really is it, is it your own software you develop?
David Tracz: It's something that we've, we, uh, it's called landscape.
Uh, there's a couple of firms now they use it, but it was, uh, when we added it, it was like a showstopper for some of our clients. Cause they'd get this QR code in their email and they just boop. And then they're like, oh, nice. I can see though little space. Um, so it's really cool
Dan Ryan: on the rendering side, um, I was shown this w [00:44:00] when was that in?
Uh, maybe November. Um, didn't, you know, they always go around and do this like tour demand, um, where they bring product and models and photographers all over the world. Right. And do these incredible shoots. It's super expensive. It's not very sustainable. Um, but it always yielded. I think they kind of created.
W that look and that John rhe for shooting furniture, but what they've done, what they've been working on over the past, I think more than a year is they, they hired a, a gaming engine company and they've rendered these incredible landscapes. So mountains see jungle almost like, and put these incredible architectural homes on them.
Um, all in this, um, in this gaming engine, but they're almost, it's almost like James Bond kind of villain man with the golden gun kind of homes. But one of the things I found is, okay, so we see renderings all the time, but [00:45:00] you're looking at it within the house, right. Or within the room or within whatever it is.
What's cool about this, the gaming engines. And I think we're just on the very early stage of this. It's not just that you can see it in the house or in the room, but you can actually zoom out and see the landscape around it and come around. And the light, it is just. Unreal as far as where that whole thing is going.
David Tracz: It absolutely is. I mean, I. I was Dave and I are old. Um, and there've been a number of times where I looked down and go, wow. If I had this software, when I was in college, amazing things could have happened. My pen and my pencil. We're not doing this. I couldn't zoom out. I don't. Um, but it's, it's incredible.
Uh, it's incredible to see. And it's, it really is. Uh, you know, I, I feel like our clients can experience their spaces long before they're built into it. It does, it really helps. Uh, you know, we've, we have some with some other clients, uh, that, you know, just a couple of [00:46:00] visualizations and looking at it and, you know, they've changed their server patterns because, you know, they were looking at a bank hat and it was a long banquette.
And I was like, I think we need to break that bank cat so you can get a server can walk around and not go all around the restaurant. And they're like, we need to do that. So four foot opening and instant change in how the service was going to work. So that's.
Dan Ryan: That's super cool. That actually reminds me, um, I saw this really interesting, um, virtual reality, uh, Nvidia, which was showing it and it had to do with, they built this model for BMW of their factory, with the cars going down the assembly line.
And then when they were, I think that they, you know, you could have the workers in there, the robots, all the inventory coming in, but they re basically built their whole assembly line, which is really kind of working in a restaurant and serving in a restaurant. Right. It's, you know, you're taking product and getting it to its end use and then, um, but they could tweak the assembly line virtually first to make sure that, Hey, can we [00:47:00] add this new.
Bumper or this new modification and how would that work and how would people stage before you actually do it in a factory? Because once you stop the factory, I mean, you know, just not printing money. Yeah, exactly.
David Tracz: Yeah. Well, that's, that's kind of the biggest benefit that I see, you know, we've done a, you know, we've been looking at that on the hotel side testing rooms in that way.
I think you still have to build a final version of the room, but I think using the 3d tools in a way that you can, uh, really zoom in and touch details and see things and, um, and then get a sense of what it really is going to be like, it makes a huge difference. Yeah. I'm
Dan Ryan: also curious, cause everyone's like, oh, why don't we do this model room in VR?
And I think that could be part of the design process and maybe I'm just old school, but I think that, especially with FFNE. The guests are actually touching and feeling and the housekeepers are coming in and see how everything works. And I just feel like you, and the amount of money they're spending per [00:48:00] room, like to me, I feel like you still have to build that room.
I don't know. Have you seen it done where it can be just done all
David Tracz: done virtually? No, not a hundred percent. I think you, I think you still have to do the, I think it's an intermediate step that might save problems on that final step, but I think it's a good intermediate step. I wouldn't say that it can be eclipsing, uh, the actual model room.
Cause there's there. You're right. There's a tactical component. There's a, um, you really need to feel and touch and push on and
Dan Ryan: here and smell. And again, you know, it's like getting all the
David Tracz: senses. Ignore. Yeah. All of those things that you can't do in a VR, I'd say putting it all together and feeling like the composition is right is, is fine.
But the tackle and the smell and the hearing component are all big pieces of that, which is why that will never. Take away from full built environment, right. You've got a test and touch and you have to have some things that are built, um, before you roll it all out, if [00:49:00] you will.
Dan Ryan: I totally agree. Dave, talking about all this exciting tech and everything else, but like, let's just move the tech aside, um, and just overall excitement for our industry and hospitality.
What's exciting. You most about the future?
David Tracz: You know, the fact that it's, uh, sort of kicking up and raring to go all of a sudden, um, you know, I feel like. I feel like it's really getting out of the doldrums and really wanting to move forward. Um, I love the fact that everything is pushing on a design bent these days.
I feel like, uh, in the past it's it has sort of suffered from like, uh, a repetitive nature. And I still think there's a danger of that even with, uh, the level of, um, the level of detail that we're getting to these days. But, you know, I feel like every space now, or every hotel that I see that's spelt has a little bit more [00:50:00] uniqueness to it, which I think is, is awesome.
It means that there's attention being paid to details and finishes in a way that hasn't been before. Um, and that excites me, you know, I think we, we, we want to be doing more of that for sure, because that's the fun stuff, right. When you get to actually think about it and execute it and, and then go and visit.
As something that you've completed is the best
Dan Ryan: part. And then on that excitement for just the finishes and the touching and the feeling like, and design really coming to the forefront. Cause I've really seen over the past 20 years, I've seen the transformation and the importance of design overall. It's just incredible.
And the amount of investment that's gone into that is just incredible. How in your, like, what's the most impactful way to have design impact hospitality?
David Tracz: Uh, well, one [00:51:00] using a good designer that can execute that piece. Um, you know, I think that, uh, I think that it's getting the team together and, and talking about what wa what the space wants to be from the beginning. And everybody's got to really be interested in it. I think, I think it's important, uh, that not just the design firms are in or sort of in it, but also the development team, the ownership team, the operations team, because if, if we're not all in sync what's going to happen is there's going to be a beautiful space that somebody is going to want to change or adjust in a way that didn't function.
Right. Or, uh, You know, or just doesn't function for what their use is. And that just means it's not gonna work. Right. Um, I think, uh, you can use, uh, the bar, uh, the bar flip-top is one of the best examples of that in the world. I can't tell you how many bars I've been in, where the flip-top never actually flips down.
Right. So it's kind of the same thing, right? You designed this beautiful space and there's a flip top. That's all [00:52:00] the way hanging out up there. But you know, we, we talk about this a lot in restaurants where people are like, oh, we'll just put this in it and we'll slide it into the corner. And I was like, but people need that all the time.
Well, then they're just going to leave it out. Like it's not going to go back into that corner every time. So it's, it's a lot of that piece is getting the team together, uh, in a way. And everybody's running towards that. Cause I think, I think you're right, that we're, as we're talking about, design is becoming much more of the forefront, but you can't lose sight of the heart that's behind it.
And it means that everybody has to be a part of that heart, the developer, the owner, all of those pieces have to be attentive to it. Um,
Dan Ryan: that's, that's a very profound way of putting it. And then, okay, so then let's say everyone's aligned. You have the ops, you have the design, um, ownership development.
Everyone's in alignment. You have a great project, then you go, [00:53:00] there's other projects where you're not all firing, firing on the same cylinders and you're not all aligned. Do you have any special. Hacks or tricks or techniques to step back, create a moment where you can actually get all
David Tracz: aligned. You know, I think I, I don't know if I have the full hacks for it.
I think it's, it's also a little bit about just listening to the room and understanding what's happening. You know, we've, we started this conversation talking about being vulnerable and open to conversation. And I think that some people, uh, in those types of conversations don't stop and listen, and sometimes you've got to help encourage the crowd to kind of stop and just say, Have that conversation, um, or, or, um, or draw out the people that aren't, you know, when you're, when you're not aligned like that, you usually, the crowd knows who's not in alignment.
So it may mean it may mean stopping and saying, all right, [00:54:00] you haven't spoken it a little while. Mr. Ops guy, what's bothering you because there's something wrong. So let's, let's keep, let's get into that a little bit and let's spend the right time. Um, I think time is actually a big problem these days, especially because there is so much going on that there's not a lot of time to spend, uh, having those conversations, uh, and everybody wants to rush to be done.
And that's, uh, I think that's going to be to the detriment of a lot of things. Um,
Dan Ryan: I also, I find, and I'm amazed by all these conversations with architects and designers and just your ilk who can take these ideas. And actually make the built environment out of them. Right. And I find the most successful ones are the ones who, okay.
They can all focus on what they've built in designing and execute it and get it there. But I think something that you said about reading the room, hearing the room, but it's also like listening to the negative [00:55:00] space or what's what's unsaid and being able to hear in the build thing. Okay. You have the positive space, this is all the, this is the shape and the form of, of the space that we're building, but also with the team.
And then what impact is the negative space? So then the void that sometimes the void is more informative than anything else.
David Tracz: Well, yeah. I mean, especially if you don't, uh, go out and draw, draw out, what's missing, you know, if you, if, if, uh, if you don't, um, you end up with like a gotcha moment later, cause it's like a.
This, this is the one thing I always try to avoid is like, oh, well we should have done this. Well, what do you mean? You should have done that? We shouldn't, we have talked about that six weeks ago when we were, but that, that mistake is, is our mistake for not stopping earlier and being like, you know, Mr.
Operations got you. Haven't said anything. Let's what do we, how do we talk about this a little bit more in a different way. And, and I think I would argue that a lot of times [00:56:00] it is sort of in the ops side, that that does happen because it's, I think it
Dan Ryan: is because you know, most of those op of not most many of those ops guys and gals they'd want to be quiet, because I also think that sometimes they don't want to say what they want, because they also want to have the ability to bitch later when it's not working for them.
David Tracz: I mean, maybe I can definitely tell you, there are times when we've gotten to that point where we're like, oh, they're like, oh, this doesn't work because of this. And you're like, And what did you say that needed to work because of that? And, you know, I am not a mind reader, so it's a lot of times where, uh, now more than ever, it's a lot of just stopping and listening
Dan Ryan: was back on that.
I think you say you're not a mind reader, but I think, um, that's part of, what's gotten you to the place that you are. Maybe you're not relying on reading the mind, but you're looking at that negative space or the void and say, okay, this, we need to pull something out and fill this void here. Yeah, for sure.
For sure. Um, okay. So [00:57:00] Dave, going back to 1999, you're fresh out of school. You met that who maybe is not the friend yet, but you're working with the contractor, right? That, that was the story. If you, Dave, that I'm talking to right now went back to the Dave of 1999. What advice would you give yourself in 1999?
David Tracz: I think, I think at this stage, it's, it's more of just like getting to know. Not being afraid to get to know the clients better and get to know the people better. Um, you know, I wouldn't change anything that I've done up until now. Uh, maybe, uh, maybe we, if we had started this a little sooner, but it a different story, but you know, I think, uh, I think what got me here is, is sort of just being patient and understanding and, and trying to understand what my clients were going through.
Um, and you know, then it just was a, it was a time of like getting, getting used to. What [00:58:00] is design at that point and having a really high hopes to work on like high design projects. Right. And not really being sure what that was at the time, but, you know, thank, thank God. I got put into a hospitality project in, uh, 2005 and it was a, it was a whole new world.
Dan Ryan: Maybe you would have told yourself to get lean into hospitality a bit more back then.
David Tracz: Probably, probably it definitely had, it was something on the horizon. It felt good. I want, I knew I wanted to get into restaurants a little bit, but it wasn't until I got into a hotel project that, uh, I met all these amazing people and, uh, got to really do some fun stuff.
So it was, uh, it was very eyeopening at that point. Awesome.
Dan Ryan: Um, Dave, if people, if the listeners want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to connect with you?
David Tracz: Uh, you know, you can go through our website www dot 38, 70 seven.design. Or my email is dt@studiothirtyeightseventyseven.com.
Dan Ryan: [00:59:00] Awesome. Well, Dave, I just want to thank you for your time and this has been so wonderful just to get to know you in a different way. And also I can't wait to well hope maybe with Alia, but just you and me, we go to cranes or succotash or one of the, one of your other projects and have that awesome martini there as well.
I love it.
David Tracz: While the trans guys are opening another restaurant. So I'll check that. Oh
Dan Ryan: good. And, uh, also most importantly, the listeners, I just want to thank you because the show has just been growing and I've been getting such great feedback and my guests have been getting such great feedback. So this is, uh, evolved your opinion on what hospitality is, how to deliver it, how to make other fields feel comfortable, how to make yourself feel more vulnerable.
Please share the podcast with a friend and, uh, thank you everyone. We'll see you next time. Thank you, Dan. Thank you, Dave.
[01:00:00]