Defining Hospitality

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Dan Ryan: Today's guest started his career in hospitality, working at a small property on the California coast before building what became the number one hotel marketing blog in the world, and then helping build technology companies that served tens of thousands of hotels worldwide with guest experience, revenue management and investment.
Today he's combining these experience to publish hospitality daily, which is dedicated to helping hotel years provide better guest experiences and run thriving hospitality businesses, ladies and gentlemen, Josiah [00:01:00] Mackenzie. Welcome Josiah.
Josiah Mackenzie: Thanks Dan. Appreciate you having me on,
Dan Ryan: oh, thanks for having you on.
I, you know, it's, it's really interesting since doing this podcast, which it's really about, I think it's been about nine months now. Um, I would always go to all of these events and conferences and, um, just kind of gatherings of people that are, uh, like-minded in our industry. So to bring it into context of you.
I met you at the skiff, uh, global forum in New York city. I don't know, a month ago, two months ago. And what's interesting is I may have been to this before in the past, but looking at it differently through the lens of an interviewer, to other people who were like really PA I, I connect with people who were passionate and interested about our industry, but in different ways than I might have in my, in my former life where I didn't have this filter on.
And I just remember standing there meeting with you, uh, I think Andrew Benioff introduced us from independent lodging Congress. And you had started, um, [00:02:00] hospitality daily and you, I don't know your energy, you just gave off. And the passion was just so clear and exciting. Um, why don't you just tell our guests a little bit about what hospitality is all about and why you're so passionate about.
Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah, well, I, uh, it was awesome to meet you at, at that event. Uh, Dan and I think Rafa and, and the team did amazing job putting that event together. I think what excites me most about hospitality is, you know, the time has never been better to, to work in this industry. I sort of fell in love with hospitality.
Um, you know, as you mentioned, working on a very small property on the California coast and, um, since then have seen the industry and worked with people across the industry from, from many different, uh, levels and perspectives. And I, I think hospitality at its core is really a gift, right? It's a, feeling of being safe, of being free, of being inspired.
And of [00:03:00] course that is something that we can. Both experience and provide in our personal lives, but it's something that, uh, there there's a business around this. And I think this is, um, you know, a fantastic opportunity, whether you're working on a property, if you're working at a brand, if you're, working at an investment company, to think about what are those environments that we can provide.
That sort of, feeling to people, And the world needs this, you know, I believe more than ever. And what's really cool is, is for a number of factors. And maybe we'll get into this in our conversation. Um, the, uh, opportunities for people working in and around this industry have, have never been higher.
And so what it, what personally excites me is the opportunity, uh, to listen and learn, uh, from people that are doing interesting things in the space to tell their stories, uh, to get more coverage. And that's really what I'm doing with hospitality daily is looking for stories of, uh, great operators and sharing that [00:04:00] out in hopes of inspiring other people to provide that either in a professional context or to take some element of that and think about providing that, uh, to their friends and family and people around them in their personal lives.
Dan Ryan: I, I love it. And the content you're creating is awesome. And I, and just to kind of. Thread this all together in doing all of these conversations. For instance, I was talking to Aaron Richter who works over at, um, E Equinox for the hotels and, and the health clubs as well. And you had just published an article basically stating what you just stated, that it's never been a better time to start working,
investing in hospitality. Um, and that came out just before I think I was interviewing him and I said to him, I said, Hey, I just read this by Josiah. Tell me why you agree or disagree with this. And it was a great point of departure because I also feel like it is the best time ever in our industry to embark on a career because it's been so [00:05:00] gutted by so many great people, um, that the, this tr career trajectory path is so steep right now that if you're there and you're passionate and working, like your career can really take off and you could be.
A gen, a general manager, a hotel owner, a you name it in short order, I think in a faster, uh, it's a, it's a faster progression than I think ever in the past. How did you come up with that title? And like, what did you see that made you that, that, that made that resonate with you?
Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah, so, uh, I was writing about things that I had heard at both the gift event that you and I were at and then at the NYU hospitality investment conference that took place a few weeks ago.
And so I think for our listeners, um, don't take it from me. I was, uh, writing about what bankers and investors and owners were saying. They were seeing from an investment perspective [00:06:00] and kind of looking at the. Some of the macro factors that are at play here and looking at obviously the, uh, surge in consumers wanting to travel, that's been talked about before, but, um, with more international travel coming online with more business travel coming online, uh, the demand pictures looking very promising.
So I feel for our, from the moment that we're at right now, there's never been a better time to work in hospitality. I think outside of, of some of those demand factors to riff on what you were saying a little bit, the, from a kind of personal career level, what people may overlook as they're thinking about, you know, where do I work?
What industry would be a best fit for my skillset, the types of jobs that you can have in hospitality are, are very diverse. And I think some people may overlook this, the. Consistent theme in, in conversations I've had with hotel years in terms of what has drawn them to the industry is often, [00:07:00] uh, a desire to serve people, a desire to meet people from all walks of life from around the world.
And I think that is fundamental to hospitality providers, right? There's something magical about that. What's also true is, uh, hospitality more broadly is, uh, you know, one of the more interesting consumer businesses in terms of what is sort of going on in, in, you know, the consumer psyche in terms of what brand experiences will be attractive.
Um, it is a incredibly fascinating, uh, real estate play. I spent the last two years of my career working, uh, with many private equity real estate investors. And the opportunities on, on that side of the industry are, are pretty phenomenal. And then within technology, uh, hospitality has. Well, this isn't true for every single brand, but for, for many, uh, hotels, it has been somewhat of a laggard in terms of [00:08:00] technology adoption.
And so there's a massive opportunity for, um, true innovators to think about how do we combine some of the spirit of, of providing hospitality with some of the, the new data sets and technology that's available that increases the consumer experience, makes these businesses more productive, um, and ultimately makes, you know, the teams and associates, uh, that work on properties happier and, and, and more productive.
So, um, you know, all that to say, I think there's an incredibly diverse range of, uh, career opportunities for people in hospitality. And I, I want, I want more people to know about that.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. And the other thing that I love so much about this and the feedback that I, I, that I'm getting from talking to all these incredible guests, like, and I'm just humbled by all the people that like you who wanna speak with me and get the stories out there about our industry.
It's. No matter what you wind up doing, whether you build a career in hospitality or go on to something else, whatever you learn about [00:09:00] serving people, interacting with people, making other people feel it's all about empathy, and it's all about, um, making others feel a certain way, which I think is transferable to any industry you could ever imagine.
And so to me, it's just no matter what, whether you're, you're looking for a second career or you're just getting off, I think it's just a really great way to just learn interpersonal skills, which serves everyone and just makes the world a better place. I, I believe as well.
Josiah Mackenzie: Totally. And I've, I've both been recipient of and, and tried to, uh, to live that out in my personal life to, to some extent, I think, you know, when I, um, after college I was, I was living in San Francisco and my aunt and uncle were, uh, in the peninsula of that an hour south.
And they would have me down on the weekends and, uh, just create this safe, relaxing, uh, space for me to kind of unwind on the weekend and would cook amazing meals. And, you know, so that sort of feeling of, uh, receiving that is, um, has inspir. Some of the feeling that I've tried [00:10:00] to, uh, provide in, in my professional life as well.
Uh, but I think what's, what's really fascinating is obviously the hospitality industry is so diverse. And so some of your listeners may have short term rentals that they're managing. Right. And so there's almost like that, uh, personal hosting experience you're providing in that context. And obviously it could also work in a more scaled environment, like a hotel.
Um, and so there, there's definitely that relationship between the personal and the professional there.
Dan Ryan: And I think like just in my, in the brief interactions that we've had together and again, tapping into that passion that we both have for this industry, whereas. Like, I'm not an expert in hotels. I'm not an expert in hotel management at all.
I'm, I'd say I'm an ex expert in custom furniture, fabrication and delivery, um, for your ho for whatever a hotel is going to need. But when I think about you being an expert for hotel marketing and that success that you had on your, um, on the blog that you developed originally, um, [00:11:00] I think that what we both are, and like so many other people in our tribe, it's really, we're fans of hospitality.
Like we know when we, when we see and experience good hospitality and I find it inspiring and restorative and recharging. And I think like to what you said earlier of really being a storyteller of other people who are just experts in this field and getting their stories out, that's really exciting. So how did you.
Figure out on your career journey from working in the small, um, hotel on the California coast to where you are now, like where did you see that you had this passion for acting as a megaphone at getting other people's stories out and sharing that with the world?
Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah, well, I think there's a really strong tradition of sort of apprenticeship in hospitality and in some countries that has a very formal.
Uh, way of, of, of going about that others it's, it's [00:12:00] much more informal. And a lot of people I've spoken with, um, you know, people have all different kind of, uh, backgrounds, all different types of, uh, education and getting into the industry, but a consistent thread is learning from others. And so that happened to me on that, that small property that I worked with the general manager, uh, was incredible at both showing some of the, the processes of what it takes to welcome guests.
It was a really small property. And so, uh, I was often. The only person there and would do everything from welcome the guest to make them a cappuccino, to, uh, clean the rooms. And so there's, there's processes that streamline that, but there's a lot of intangibles as well. And so hospitality is something you really have to learn through observation.
I experience that myself, you know, on, on property. Um, but also, you know, this was, um, 2007, 2008. And there obviously was, was kind of [00:13:00] the rise of social media platforms and Facebook and, and Twitter. And so I was, uh, starting to experiment with without a little bit. And, um, the opportunity to follow people that had experience in hospitality, uh, was starting to become apparent to me.
And so I think what started it was, uh, wanting to, I, I guess, a natural curiosity of, uh, looking for interesting ways that people were. Welcoming their guests providing great service and, and then tell those stories through Twitter and, and, and places like that. And, uh, I think that's something that continues to this day.
I, I think I, I, um, I, I get a rush of happiness every time I talk with someone who is clearly. Deeply passionate about this as, as not only a, a profession, but as a lifestyle. And I think it's been incredible hearing some of the conversations that you've had with your guests. There's people, uh, like Adele [00:14:00] Gutman, who I used to know working in New York, who, um, used to oversee a collection of hotels there.
And, and since then has, has focused her career on storytelling as well. Uh, I, I just feel the sort of media environment that we're in now allows some of those best practices to be shared in a way that, uh, we're not PO was not possible before. And it's pretty exciting to see
Dan Ryan: true. It's like everyone can become their own publisher.
Right. Everyone becomes their own studio. It's it's really awesome. And then what I also love about it, it's kind of like, we're able to capture these stories. and for anyone that wants to come up or is already in our industry, it kind of helps fill in the blanks and gives up more, um, well rounded picture of like how other people got their start, who inspired them?
What were their pitfalls? Well, how did they learn? So how it's really like, how can we shorten each other's journeys by sharing all these stories? Um, you, you [00:15:00] mentioned before, obviously hospitality in the, on the hotel side of things, or even short term rentals, it's real, it's a real estate play right at its core.
Right. But what's also interesting is. In being a real estate play, I find that hotels and even short term rentals, they're also a platform for so many different channels of business. It's like the ultimate entrepreneurial revenue generating machine, if done well, especially in these kind of more drive to locations where you might have a resort with lot of land, how do you activate all of these other areas?
How do you maximize revenue? How do you hire the right people? And it's like, it's each one is like a little laboratory for kind of activating the space and inspiring others. How are, how are you seeing some, some really good activations of different channels of business within hotels right now? And how do you keep track of it all?
Or how are others keeping track of.
Josiah Mackenzie: It's complex. Right? I think large hotels [00:16:00] and resorts are almost like a small city. I had an opportunity to talk with, uh, the president of operations for the grand hotel in Michigan. Uh, it's Northern Michigan. I spend high school in the upper peninsula of, of Michigan.
And so in the summer that place just comes alive. It's, it's warm, it's gorgeous, beautiful. Everyone's coming in there. And the grand hotel is just this iconic property on Mackinaw island. Uh, and, and talking, um, with David who, who runs operations there, uh, he, he was speaking to this a little bit and I think the property has something like 18 restaurants and the, uh, you know, different, uh, activity centers and pools and all these gift shops.
And so, uh, from an operational perspective, you're right. It's extremely complex. And I think one of the, you know, that that's an interesting. Place to start your career. If you are, you know, wanting to learn operations, just the complexity of keeping track of each of those locations. I think what a place like that, that has a [00:17:00] lot of food and beverage outlets is also really good at is increasing sort of the surface area of enhancing the guest experience.
Right. And I was talking with the, um, the head of food, food, and beverage at Remington hotels, um, the other day. And, and he was speaking to this a little bit where if you think about designing a great guest experience, you know, a lot of people think about good what's that arrival and check in process, and it does matter, right?
First impressions make a big difference. But the reality is, uh, probably there's a lot more touch points that you'll have with your guests in, in the F and B experience, right? So maybe I'm stopping by the coffee shop each morning. Maybe I'm having lunch and dinner at your restaurants. And each of those moments create, uh, an opportunity to surprise and delight your, your guest and.
Have them come back and it also made quite a bit of money in, in doing that. So it's, um, you're right there. There's a lot of complexity there, but I think looking at it, you know, from a, an [00:18:00] operator's perspective is each of these moments, give us this chance to surprise and delight our guests.
Dan Ryan: And I, I agree on the surprise and delight and just from my own life experience too, there's been where all those moments are for potential of surprise and delight.
There's also so many missed opportunities and it's not like it's really hard. It's just, it's eye contact. It's just pausing and listening. But when you like going to like the Mackinaw island grand hotel that you were talking about, I, I'm not, I've, I've read about it. I've never been there, but I can imagine with that many F and B experiences and that many, um, Just activities to do all around the property.
You need some sort of revenue management system to kind of tie it all together, get everything. There's a lot of like technological solutions. Um, how are you finding, and maybe not specifically that one, but on these larger scale resort properties, how are they balancing all of that tech and [00:19:00] tying everything together, but then also cherishing those moments to delight and serve others.
Like to me, like technology technology, technology is like a, it's a solution that ties it all together, but it's really so much about the people too. How are they finding balance between the two.
Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah, it it's tricky, right? Because technology, isn't just this pure solution that if you buy a piece of software or implement some technology, everything's magically going to be better for your associates and, and for your guests.
Uh, I think. Technology's a failure when it detracts from things that are going to improve that guest experience or reduce the employee experience or, um, you know, and, and that typically results in the business becoming less profitable, you know? So if you have a very complex solution that. Your team doesn't understand.
And you know, their heads down at, at the, uh, at the, the check-in [00:20:00] area and are not able to make that eye contact with your guests are so distracted by that. Um, it's not doing its job. Right. Great technology should free. Your teams and fortunately there's many good technology providers out there, but I think hotelers, that are thinking about implementing technology really need to, uh, pay attention to, to that user experience, to think about how are we gonna train our teams, uh, to do those reference checks with other hotel leaders that have had similar experiences.
Um, I was really curious about this. You know, we have one of the biggest hotel technology trade shows coming up next week. And, um, I surveyed a hundred plus hotelers and asked what their experience has been. And by and large, uh, vast majority of hotel leaders said that technology was improving the guest experience.
They felt that their teams were happier, uh, from having that technology in place. And they also felt their businesses were more profitable. So there there's positive. [00:21:00] I, I guess, indications that technology helps, but again, it's, it's not a, a cure all solution. And there is a, a pretty wide variance in terms of how effective these various solutions are.
So
Dan Ryan: in one of our other conversations or interactions, you said something that really resonated with me because at the beginning of the pandemic, I was on a call with, um, Horst Schultz, who was like the founder of Ritz Carlton or not the, was he the founder? I think he was the founder of Ritz Carlton. I don't remember what his title was.
He's a big deal in our industry. But he said to me that, you know, this is really, as we come out of this pandemic and everything normalizes, it's the age of independent hotels or boutique hotels we're entering this. So that was his statement. You said recently that really you feel that we are entering the age of operators, right?
So I feel like for the independent hotels, you know, you're so. Tied into your local [00:22:00] environment, if done well, you have to operate well. And maybe there's some overlap between age of operator, age of independent hotels. What do you mean by it is the age of operators now.
Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah, well, I'm, I'm fascinated by boutique lifestyle, independent hotels.
The opportunity for creativity within these properties is often extraordinary. And what's unique about this moment in time is it feels that the financial payoff of operating, uh, these hotels is higher than it's ever been. Right? So you've had people, everything, everyone from a core CEO to Virgin hotels, to others that have talked about these type of properties, outperforming the rest of their portfolios.
Right? And so we've been talking about experience and hospitality for a long time. It's awesome to see, you know, this is, this is starting to pay off. I think, as I think about the. Sort of this being an era of, of operations, I guess I kind of think back to [00:23:00] the origins of boutique hospitality, right?
Everyone from bill Kimpton to, to Connolly, to Ian Schrager who had very different approaches in terms of how they thought about this, but it was a marked departure from what hotels were before that, um, either. Commodities or, you know, there was the emergence of some luxury brands that were starting, but these lifestyle hotels were designed to more, uh, to connect more deeply with people that, um, yeah, lived a certain lifestyle or cared about different things.
So there's a much broader, uh, array of, uh, architecture of design of service standards. And so that really, um, shook up the industry. I think what happened then is there started to be, um, this, this wave of private equity investment into hospitality. Right. And so. In talking to people on both sides of that equation.
Uh, I think the good news is there was more [00:24:00] money involved to do things at a scale that, uh, wasn't possible previously, but in some cases, some of those private equity investors overlook some of the core elements of what makes hospitality not only special, but profitable over time. And how do you build an enduring brand that isn't just, you're squeezing every cost out of, uh, you know, the equation and you're gonna pay for that down the line.
Right. I think what, what we've seen over the past decade or so is the emergence of a number of factors that have really changed the game. Obviously the last couple of years with the pandemic has been talked about extensively. So we don't need to, you know, go into much more detail there, but I think more broadly there's more data available that than ever before.
Right. So. You know, going back to 2008, 2009, when I got started in, in some of this, obviously there was the rise of social platforms. I saw the power dynamic change [00:25:00] dramatically from just being a one way. We're a business. Our clients need to operate on our terms to now you have a feedback loop where any of these guests who have either a very positive experience or a negative one, then have a microphone that could reach millions of people.
Right. And so it really heightened the bar in terms of transparency. You can't just take a, a negative. Uh, comment card and throw it in the trash bin, right? This stuff is online and guess head power. And that translated into real financial benefits, uh, or, or I should say consequences for these hotels, right?
So I spent six and a half years helping build, uh, a company that was aggregating all of this online guest feedback and had a chance to see this at scale where, um, the hotels that were earning these positive reviews had more demand. They were able to charge more for their rooms. And so, you know, perhaps more than ever before, there was this direct relationship between the guest experience and [00:26:00] revenue performance.
Right. And so that's just an example of one data set and kind of one of these, um, massive changes that's affected the industry. I think if we look at areas like pricing, um, there's technology platforms out there that will ingest, uh, tremendous amount of disparate data to understand how much demand. Is out there and how do you best capitalize on that?
And so I think if you connect the threads between all of these obviously guest experience is more important than ever the use of, uh, smart technology across pricing, across marketing, across operations, uh, the operators of hotels have more visibility into what is going on at their properties than they've ever had.
And so when I kind of talk about the rise of operations, it's partially driven by that, but also partially informed by the last two years, working around a lot of private equity investors, where if you look across the, [00:27:00] the various types of real commercial real estate investment hospitality is. One of, if not the biggest area where operations is the key to unlocking value, right?
And so if you get in there, you're really smart about all these different things that we've talked about. Um, hospitality is fundamentally an operating business and, you know, that means providing great guest experience, you know, doing a great job, building a culture with your team. Um, and so I, I, I firmly believe this.
We're, we're gonna see this era of, of great operators, uh, really succeed financially in the years ahead.
Dan Ryan: Well, it's also interesting because, you know, when you hear, when I hear you say lifestyle boutique independent, there's really no definition for exactly what any of that is, but we all kind of like, know it when we see it, right.
It's one of those things. And then I think, um, to hear what you're saying as I'm kind of processing it with all the data, all the analytics in this space of boutique, independent [00:28:00] lifestyle, um, it allows a well run independent property to be more adaptable than maybe some of the bigger brands, so to speak.
Right. So that you can really almost squeeze every ounce outta that lemon and add sugar and make lemonade. I didn't wanna . Yeah. So we're making a ton of lemonade, but it, it just seems like if done, well, not only are you be able to be more nimble and aggregated all, like you said, you're also more profitable and investors like that.
So I know on the independent, uh, boutique lifestyle, the actual, the returns tend to be if well, run higher than your, an average branded flag to, to a branded flagged hotel.
Josiah Mackenzie: Exactly. Exactly. Because there's, there's more opportunity to create an exceptional experience that is just, you can't get elsewhere.
Right. There's always gonna be someone that will pay an exceptional amount of money to experience that. I think. Lover hate them. Airbnb has been an interesting case study in [00:29:00] terms of that. And I think Brian Chesky the other day just announced a massive amount of money that they're giving away to people providing over the top designs.
Right. And they know for that top tier of exceptionally designed properties, people will pay exceptional amounts of money to stay there. And so I think whether you're in that aspect of hospitality, uh, or not, there there's equivalence there. Right. So, um, and design
Dan Ryan: design matters so much. I, I mean, that's what I've always seen.
And people pay for it from apple to Nike, to Equinox, actually talking to Aaron, uh, Richter from Equinox the other day. He and I haven't done the research yet, but he said there's actually an index that tracks, um, design forward, publicly traded companies. And that us, I, I think, and I, I wanna do the research.
So I I'm speaking from not knowing anything, but apparently those companies in that index. Outperform the, the market at large, typically, because design is really about [00:30:00] problem solving and connecting to a community and creating a culture and a brand. It, it kind of design is that kind of ether that ties everything together and drives higher returns
Josiah Mackenzie: a hundred percent.
And I think this is where the details really, really matter. And, uh, you know, so if you think about something as specific as the furniture or a chair in the room, right. Instead of viewing this as a commodity, uh, it could be an opportunity to. In a small way perhaps, but create a differentiated experience.
Right. And so I think that's, what's cool about your business and, and what you're able to, to help hotels think about is look at everything in the room, on your property, uh, as a way to stand out. I, I think I've seen this across the board in many different types of, uh, product. So, uh, you know, one experience early in my career that stood out to me was, um, I got to know a guy in Istanbul, uh, 10 cell Tora, [00:31:00] who has a, he, he created this very small lifestyle hotel, uh, in a former office of Ogilvy.
Um, in the 1960s, his old ad agency, he converted into a hyperlocal representation of all the best parts of Istanbul. So he, everything from, um, The flooring to the furniture, to the bedding was all, uh, local designers and architects. And it was just an absolutely phenomenal experience, but you see it in a more scale perspective as well.
I've, you know, known and worked with a team at citizenM for years. And I think you walk into one of their properties. They have a very clear vision for what their experience will be. And I think they've described it, um, as, you know, taking the bus to one of their properties and then going out for a Michelin star meal.
Right? And so you have this, this, you know, the guest so well, you know, what's gonna stand out to them. And I think things like furniture or design aspects play big, big role in this.
Dan Ryan: And I think, you know, going back to the idea of hotels [00:32:00] and even short term rentals, being a real estate play, there's also, that's on one side on the other side, it's really an experience.
And I think the ones that are really successful on the experience side and building a brand, you know, it all goes back to. The Kimptons the, Shrager the, conies the sh uh, the stern licks and, you know, countless others where, okay. Yes, this is a real estate play. I get it. There has to be a ROI and a PNL. And like, this has to make sense, but how do we turn the volume to 11 on design and experience create a brand that, that then it's almost like an afterburner of creating more value and unlocking tremendous value for just investors, neighborhoods, communities, and cities.
Josiah Mackenzie: Exactly. Because, uh, I mean, again, going back to the dynamic that we're in right now, a lot of, uh, demand is driven by reviews, whether that is guest reviews or, uh, journalists writing up your [00:33:00] property. Right. And that's gonna be driven by that guest experience. So if you have enough people saying really positive things about your property, um, people will wanna spend more to stay there and to experience that for themselves.
Dan Ryan: And I tend to find that the projects I work on in my world tend to be the ones that are not just the pure real estate play, because there it's all dollars and cents, right. It's like, okay, I need to get a 15 or 20% return for my investor, blah, blah, blah. Like cut everything. And let's just manage to the, to the, uh, performer.
The other ones are like, you know what? It's kind of like that field of dreams, um, mentality where it's like, okay, I have a vision, I know this is gonna go. I'm just gonna build a baseball diamond in the middle of a cornfield. And if we build it, they will come. But it's, it's vision and courage. Where are you seeing that vision and courage throughout our industry now?
Like if you there's so much of it, but are any rising to the top in your mind as far as what you're seeing from your perspective?
Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah. It, it, it's a really good point. [00:34:00] Uh, I think the unfortunate thing is I've also seen a lot of. Hotelers especially on the small, independent end of the scale, uh, go out of business or the, the concept doesn't work, because I think you do have to marry that exceptional experience with a pragmatism of, is this business viable over the long term and, um, assuming you wanna make money, which that isn't always the case, but, uh, I, I think that is, uh, a component of this, but, but to your question of where does the vision and, and courage come from?
I, I think great, uh, creatives. Borrow liberally from other innovative people. And so I know chip Connolly has talked about this extensively as he was thinking about building his hotels and referencing a magazine for example. Right? Yeah. And so that for his team was a,
Dan Ryan: it was like, it was like a magazine in three words, I think that they would, and then they would build everything off of that.
That was super fun.
Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah. And it it's it's so in the people [00:35:00] with the people I've spoken with it's, everything from that to the land, the, the physical location of where they are to a neighborhood, to a way of living to a brand that is outside of hospitality. I was talking with, uh, the founder of a, a, a boutique brand in Europe and he was inspired by sweet green, the salad, uh, chain in, in New York where, uh, it was a healthy lifestyle.
And that spoke to a set of people that. Probably would take those values and want that in their hospitality experience. So the good news is I think inspiration can come from anywhere. Um, but it requires understanding your customer really, really well. Cuz if you don't that's I think where, where, uh, the business sometimes falters,
Dan Ryan: I love that you bring up sweet green because my wife loves it.
I hate it. Um, and I don't, it's not that I don't hate the food. The food is incredible. What I don't like is [00:36:00] there's a line around the corner, always of people just waiting there to buy like a $25 salad. But if you think about. The lifestyle component of that and the, and knowing who their psychographic or demographic is, and then the design and the music and everything that they do.
It's really amazing. I just get bitter paying 20, over $20 a salad. However, the people who are there are raving fans. And I think going back to that idea of finding the balance between vision and passion and an operating business, like they've created a brand and a following. Exactly. So on that front, on the creating that brand and following of these like raving fans, if you will, who in the, um, out in our hospitality world, are you seeing that like as a fan of hospitality, like who do you think is doing it?
Well, Right now, generally speaking, you don't and if you leave other people's out, no one will have a no, no one will feel bad, but I just wanna hear from you as a, as from your perspective, like who's [00:37:00] doing it really well right now.
Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah. So, um, I mean, just, just to your point on sweet green I'm with you, uh, spending $25 on a salad seems exorbitant, but it's really interesting from a business perspective.
Right? So a couple weeks ago I was in New York and, um, it was like two in the afternoon. I spent probably 40 minutes waiting in line staking around this thing at two o'clock in the afternoon to spend 20 plus dollars on a salad. Right? Yeah. But from a business, like from a founder's perspective, maybe that's what we should be looking for.
Right. Where does this not make sense? People are so obsessed with this product. They're inconveniencing themselves, they're spending a crazy amount of money and you almost need those raving fans and thinking about what that implication is. Um, I think to your point of. Who I've seen do it well recently, um, I've been a big fan of citizen for a while.
I mentioned them. I think a brand I've enjoyed a lot recently is Hoxton hotels. Mm-hmm, , uh, part of the smore group and, um, stayed at their London property recently and, um, you know, [00:38:00] enjoy their, their Paris and, and Brooklyn properties. And I think that's a, a good example of, um, building a brand that does ex provides experience well in everything from the interior design to the furniture, to just the vibe you feel in, in their restaurant to the service I experienced there was, was great.
And so, um, and you know, obviously that is now part of a core hotels, and I think they've done a pretty good job preserving some of. That spirit, even though it's part of a much larger organization now it's interesting.
Dan Ryan: I just met Sharon and Claire from Enmore. They were at the H hospitality design awards in New York a couple weeks ago.
And I, he won, I don't know what award it was. It was like the, one of the big, like best hotelier award or hotelier of the year award. Um, and I talked to him after really nice guy. Like you said, a core paid a huge chunk of money for them. [00:39:00] And I think I just read like yesterday, the day before that some other group just invested alongside a core in that like, so there's, and it was like, it was nine digits.
I think it was a lot of money that went in there. And, uh, so again, and that makes me think of Kimpton, IHG getting bought by Kimpton. That was kind of the first, one of the like, Hey, this is really cool. You know, it was like a half a billion dollars or something. They paid for that and there's value in it.
And what's also interesting. I don't know how. En Moore is dealing with being part of a larger conglomerate right now. But what I've seen on the Kimpton side IHG is like, dude, we don't wanna fuck this up. Like, it's something really cool. And like, let's let it go. They'll maybe they'll do some back like operational stuff that the guest or other people won't notice, but it will make efficiencies in the business.
But Kimpton is on like a crazy, awesome growth path internationally. And they haven't really been, they haven't had that strong arm money, like try and [00:40:00] kind of squeeze the life out of them if you will. So I, I assume NS Moore is on the same path and that's really cool. Hoxton is really awesome.
Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah. It, it's an incredible experience.
And I think the, um, they're doing a good job of thinking about how do we speak to some of the bigger trends that may be happening now of people combining, um, Some a work trip with some days just to see the city and in the London property, I stayed at had a whole second, uh, story that was a big co-working area and you could bring your laptop and, and work there.
And, um, I feel like that that's gonna be an enduring trend, I think, regardless of how we're working from home or working from an office that some of that still, uh, has yet to be seen. But even when I'm traveling for work, there's often some downtime where I might be more comfortable in a environment like that, you know, just if I need to do some writing or something like that.
And so it's cool to see them, [00:41:00] I think not only benefit from that, but, but monetize it. And I think hotel leaders are getting better at the monetization component. There's a Dutch brand, um, that I spoke with recently called ZKU and they have this interesting hybrid. Very cool. Um, yeah, they have an interesting hybrid sort of work live concept.
Uh, and in talking with their head of operations, he was talking about using technology. Get very, very granular around what spaces we're making money for them. And so they even converted their ping pong table to a desk at one point and were able to make more money by that. But, you know, again, first you need to digitize some element of that cause you need data to see, you know, where yeah.
Are people, you know, what will they pay for? Um, so I think we're seeing some really interesting innovations as you combine that sort of creative thinking with more data to see what are people willing to pay for as well. And it is
Dan Ryan: really difficult to measure out ROI on design [00:42:00] initiatives as well. Right?
Because it's almost like marketing, right? How do you marketing works? But like how do you really dial everything back to an ROI and some companies, because they have such amazing amounts of data. Are able to do it by speaking to one person who worked at the innovation lab at, um, McDonald's and they would experiment building all these McDonald's storefronts or stores or restaurants, and they would mess with, Hey, how let's change just the tabletop from a stone to a laminate.
And somehow they would be able to figure out that there, whether or not there would be an ROI or increase or decrease, um, from, from doing that, I still don't know how they did it, but, you know, they must have so much data that they can just pick and pull and line it all up and see, oh, there's a change here by just making this one change.
Yeah. So cool. Yeah. They're pretty cool. I I'm wondering like how much of a return would actually happen by getting rid of a ping pong [00:43:00] table to put in a desk, but they must have so much data to be able to measure
Josiah Mackenzie: that. Yeah. Yeah, they, they, they do. And I, I haven't seen the, the exact numbers behind it, but, um, I'm just hearing story after story of hotelers that are having visibility into things like that.
That used to just be a feeling and the guests that if we did this, we'd make more money, but it's becoming a lot more scientific. And so I think maybe people listening to this that are more attracted to that analytical, um, you know, way of thinking way of running a business, there's a whole set of careers.
I think that will be built around that there already is, but I've seen this change a lot, even over the past couple of years. And, you know, so if it, hospitality is not just about, you know, welcoming people to your hotel, there's a lot of behind the scenes stuff that, um, that I think we're, we're starting to see
Dan Ryan: another thing I'm really fascinated in.
Perhaps you could, um, give some insight [00:44:00] and you, I think you alluded to it earlier in the conversation. When you think about, I think you said there's so much disparate information for an independent lifestyle boutique hotel that's in XYZ city. It doesn't matter. There's so much information about there about like sporting events, musical events, high school events, this, this, this, you name it that they're able to take all of that information, put it into a, a machine, it mixes it all up and it, it can come up with these pricing algorithms that it like, it's, it's almost like stay on target, stay on target.
And then it'll wait till the last minute some band is playing let's charge $200 more an night, a room or something like that. And people gobble it up, makes the hotel more profitable. How, how do they take all that? Like how do they identify what all that information is generally speaking? What do they put it into and how, what comes out the other end?
Like I have no idea how any of that works.
Josiah Mackenzie: Uh, yeah, it's complicated stuff. So I, the company I used to to work for their, their CTO was the [00:45:00] former CTO of Salesforce and, uh, you know, expert in, in just thinking about using big data. Um, I, I think the companies that operate in, in this space have teams of, of really smart people that are, are using, um, big data and machine learning to.
Identify some of those trends. And what's really fascinating to me is, is exactly what you mentioned of data sets that we may not think initially of as, as being relevant to hotel pricing, but everything from concerts coming in events, conferences, uh, whether, um, there's just so many things that could affect demand.
And I think the airlines had a bit of a head start over hotels in terms of, um, building this out, but hotels are, are catching up quickly. And I think some of the, the providers in this space do a really good job of leveraging these data sets. And you can see before and after, uh, a hotel moves from just, uh, you know, more standard pricing into, uh, a data driven pricing approach.
[00:46:00] And, um, the, the financial returns are, are night and day. And I think that's why investors are so well. It's one of the reasons investors are so. Bullish on hotels right now. And I think we heard this at the NYU investment conferences, host hospitality is where you wanna be during a, a recession because you have that, that pricing power.
Right. And you're able to adjust prices based on demand and, and capture money that, uh, is much more difficult to do in other types of real estate. And so it's becoming interesting from an owner's perspective.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. And in theory, with, especially in this high inflationary environment, we're in, you're able to reset the leases every night.
Right? Exactly. So in, in a way you can, as much as inflation is eroding, um, your P and L you're able to charge more for what the market will bear, and it, you're not kind of locked into these longer term leases. And then, so on the investment side of thing, one of the things that I'm seeing and I'd love it, if you could shed some light here, [00:47:00] There's so much money despite what the markets are throwing at everyone right now, and, you know, credit markets slowing down federal reserve, raising rates, uh, to combat inflation.
There's still so much money from an equity perspective out there, that's sloshing around. Um, one of the things that I was really happy about, I think it was like in 2017, I was at an ILC conference and there were some lenders from I think, Deutsche bank and something, another big bank that SP specifically lend in the hotel space.
They were saying in 2017 or 18 that, you know, the day of the days of needing a flag are over. Right. You don't need to check that box. You can be an independent lifestyle hotel and we'll get you a mortgage. We'll, we'll lend you the money. As long as you can get the equity involved in it. It all pencils out.
What are you seeing now from a lending perspective out there? Because I'm hearing that banks really are not in the [00:48:00] mood to lend to at, for hotel acquisition and development right now, or is it one of those things where you call a hundred banks and maybe the, the a hundred and first we'll say, oh yeah, we got you.
What are you seeing? And hearing out there from a lending perspective,
Josiah Mackenzie: there's probably others that could speak a little more, uh, specifically to the lending perspective. I think broadly
Dan Ryan: as a fan of, as a fan of hospitality, not an expert as a fan.
Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah. A a as a fan. And I've had some conversations with this.
I think what we're seeing broadly in. With investors is a flight to safety and a flight to real assets. And hospitality presents a, a really unique opportunity here. I think there's so much money, as you mentioned, sloshing around out there that maybe in the years, uh, over the last couple of years has been really pursuing high growth opportunities, whether it's venture or crypto, or, you know, some of these areas, uh, where they were receiving phenomenal returns.
But now that the environment is different because of the [00:49:00] factors that you, you pointed out. Real estate. It becomes very attractive and an environment, the type of real estate that you can reprise daily, uh, hospitality is, is the most attractive. And so I think everything that we were, you know, hearing at this recent investment conference from bankers to investors was that we wanna be spending, we wanna be investing more in, in hospitality.
And I think we were hearing that on the lender side as well. So it, the environment changes quickly, but I think on a high level, that's, that's what I'm hearing.
Dan Ryan: Hmm. Yeah. I hope, I hope that that continues because as we're, you know, there's talk of recession or whatever that's coming up, but at the skiff conference, I was really taken, um, by something I believe what a, I think a rash from Highgate was up on stage and he said, look, we can't tell the future, whether there's gonna be a recession or depression or whatever, what monetary policy is gonna be.[00:50:00]
Um, but what we are seeing is that there's still so much pent up demand on travel. That no matter what the world's throwing at us, people are still gonna want to go travel. And he's not saying that there won't be a recession in travel, but like by all indications, you know, through Q4, we can't see really past that.
We don't see any kind of headwinds or recession on the travel side. And it's amazing when you think about it because fortune 500 companies really haven't turned on the spigot for their company travel. It's mostly business, leisure, leisure, whatever, the, all the buzzwords going around and families. Uh, another thing that I was taking from that skiff conference, where we were is they were, uh, I don't remember who said this, but this summer as guests are traveling, they're gonna become more discerning.
And whereas last summer, they were paying a lot for hotels this summer. They're gonna be like, okay, I'm paying a lot for hotel pandemics, kind of on the we're on the Leeward side of it. Why is [00:51:00] my room so shitty? Like why is everything thread, bear nasty and dirty? And I think that that hopefully will drive a wave of capital expenditures, uh, to just get everything up to what guest expectations are demanding.
And, you know, you've said, I don't know how many times you've said guest experience or guest expectations in this conversation, but like, to me, that's a huge swing onto the, like a need for innovation and refreshing within hospitality. What are you seeing there?
Josiah Mackenzie: I feel a few, um, you know, some of the CFOs of some of the largest brands in the world were we're speaking to this recently.
And they were saying that the owners that are making these capital investments into their properties and making real significant upgrades were the ones that are seeing the highest financial returns from that. Right. So it's not just enough fresh coat of paint, but thinking maybe about furniture, upgrades, or other aspects of their property that, [00:52:00] that really need to be refreshed.
And so, um, I think that's what we're hearing from, from the money people. It, it just makes sense because to your point, if I'm paying two to three times for the same hotel that I was paying a year ago, um, it's the same hotel experience, right. And the general equation in. Earning positive reviews is it's this gap between what I'm paying and what my experience is.
And so the bigger that gap is, um, my expectations are gonna be a lot higher if I'm paying three times the price coming to a property. And if it turns out my service experience is actually lower, that that might lower my likelihood to leave a positive review. But on the other hand, I think this is, this is what the point you're making.
If you have made improvements into the property itself, right. That plays a really big role in my experience of being there. And so I might, um, I might kinda let some things [00:53:00] slide on the service element if, if the room is gorgeous and the furniture's amazing, you know, mm-hmm, now,
Dan Ryan: are you, you're in San Francisco right now?
Correct. And you live there? Yeah. Have you seen any, I've only seen a couple of hotel ownership groups kind of move some chips in. To redevelop San Francisco, but the, by all indication, they're saying like the, the prime movers, the first movers back into post, uh, COVID San Francisco. They're like, I, I think by, you know, next may, June things are gonna be back up because San Francisco is a jewel of a city globally.
People always want to go there and see what's happening. What are you seeing? What, what, what, what are the, what are your ears telling you in San Francisco?
Josiah Mackenzie: You're right. I mean, it it's a total jewel of city. I, uh, I grew up there and I, I, I just love it. Um, it is, I, I think there still is a lot of room for, [00:54:00] um, uh, improvement in terms of, of travelers visiting the city.
I feel like, um, we've been somewhat restricted as a country in terms of. Encouraging inbound, international travel. Um, but that's starting to open up. And I think even over the past couple weeks there's been developments there. Uh, and I think people that visit the city love it. It is an absolute Stu absolutely stunning, uh, place.
And there's some phenomenal hotels. I think every everything from properties, um, you know, like a little closer to the golden gate bridge, like the lodge at the Presidio to, um, there's a, a one hotel recently opened. I haven't visited that property, but want to soon. Um, and you, you have a, a fantastic collection of hotels.
Um, but I, I think San Francisco do really well. Uh, I think it's gonna be, it's maybe a little bit of a kind of sleeper destination right now, but I think the next years ahead are gonna be really good for the city.
Dan Ryan: Right. And again, I'm not following all the tech stuff, but for apple, are they doing their worldwide [00:55:00] developers conference at Moscone again?
Have those started in person at there or is it still.
Josiah Mackenzie: Different it's, it's still a little bit different. I don't know specifically about that event, but I think it's been a little different, um, you know, for the last couple of years, it's starting, the city's starting to come alive though. I think what we've seen across many us cities is.
Parts of the city that, um, catered to great lifestyles. So residential neighborhoods that have great restaurants and coffee shops, um, have been alive and buzzing and more energy than ever before I live in the lower hate neighborhood. And, um, at any time of day, it is full of people walking the streets, it feels alive, it feels exciting.
Um, and some of the downtown business districts, I think the, uh, question is still out what that looks like. But, um, I think the, the way that cities are coming back are prioritizing some of these lifestyle elements. And that's something for hotel leaders and hotel investors, [00:56:00] I think, to keep in mind. Yeah.
Cuz
Dan Ryan: everyone's been saying, oh, drive to drive to drive to resort, whatever. But I feel like the next move is back into the cities. I mean, I go to new I, New York city, a couple, I don't know, six or eight times a month. And it's just like nothing ever. Nothing happened. It's yeah, there's a couple empty storefronts that still haven't filled in.
They haven't figured that out yet, but other than that, people are, are back there. Um, as you're coming off the NYU conference and the gift conference and all your other travel and the work and the conversations that you're having, um, what's keeping you up at night right now.
Josiah Mackenzie: I think what's keeping me up, uh, at night is, is thinking about how to best take advantage of this moment.
I, I firmly believe this is an, uh, red crossroads as an industry. There's clearly a lot of pent up demand that's out there. Uh, that hotels are already [00:57:00] benefiting from. I think if we look. 2 3, 5 years out. Uh, there's questions about exactly how all this will play out. Right? It seems that, uh, times will be really good, but every business is cyclical to, to some extent.
And so, um, it could be a moment to take advantage of these boom times in terms of thinking about how do I develop the right culture with my people. How do I, uh, think about design and guest experience that will endure, uh, in any sort of an economic climate and, uh, that experience piece. Is, doesn't always take a ton of capital.
I, I started in the industry, uh, during the great recession 2007, 2008, and demand was quite low for, for, in many parts of the world. And what I was seeing then that has remained true is, [00:58:00] um, just thinking about creative ways to delight guests sometimes is, is doesn't cost a lot of money. Um, I was, I was staying a little property, uh, on, in the Sonoma coast called Sonoma coast Villa and, um, not a super fancy property, but they put a lot of thought into everything from, um, making their own little trail mix to having a little movie night outside.
And they just had a little projector screen. They had a little fire pit, they had marshmallows, um, and they were just doing a lot of little things that didn't cost them a lot. But I had such a good time there. I just had fun and I think it's moments like that, that. That, uh, really, you know, stick in my mind.
It, it's what I talk about with my friends. And I think it would be good for hotels to think about now, because even if demand remains extremely high in the years ahead, if you do things like that, whether it is a low cost, high impact, little amenity or experience, or you're putting a lot of capital behind an experience, you'll be able to charge [00:59:00] that much more than your competitors, right.
So you'll benefit now. And then if things get hard three, five years from now, you'll also have the capability to differentiate and to attract the people that are traveling. And so this is just a, uh, an evergreen sort of theme for hotel years to think about. And I think we have a really unique moment to do that
Dan Ryan: high impact, low cost guest experience.
I mean, I can go through so many of those moments where it's, you know, like the trail mix, like you say, or just the handwritten note with the little bottle of wine, like how much does that really cost. But I remember it and I'm grateful and I'm thankful. And I'm like, oh, that was awesome. Thank you. And even on the short term rental side, a friend of mine, Craig, who was a guest on this, uh, one of the first guests, he has a bunch of, uh, Airbnbs out in the Poconos and he's like, you know what?
People from the city coming out, I just want, I wanna give them a welcome basket with the trail, mix the wine, the handwritten note. And I don't want them to think about it. I just, Hey, just come and say, and it's [01:00:00] re they remember it. They get the repeat business. And it's those small moments that are so impactful.
So as you're thinking about these high impact, um, low cost things and like the how exciting the future is, is like, if you were to kind of think about what's exciting, you most about the future or these next five years? Like what, what is that from your perspective as where as where you're.
Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah, I, I, I, I sort of feel like there's this, uh, this CBR explosion of creativity and hospitality hospitality right now, you have, um, as you mentioned on the short term rental front, over the past years, we've seen so much innovation there in terms of, uh, these sort of micro operators thinking about how do I provide hospitality in that context.
Um, and some of those places are pretty high end, so it's not just, um, just very, very small businesses. And then on the hotel side, you have a tremendous range of, um, quote unquote boutique or lifestyle, uh, [01:01:00] concepts, right? Where I think in the past it was by and large, um, You know, a certain class of hotel and a certain type of experience.
I think we're seeing on the budget end, um, what lifestyle can look like there and how do you provide it relatively affordable, uh, but great experience in that environment and on the very high end, some really incredible innovation there. And so, uh, I'm, I'm most excited about seeing people getting inspired by others, putting their own unique, spin on it, thinking about what makes us distinct in terms of our team, our own experience, maybe as founders in terms of our location and how do we create that, uh, unique experience that blends all of those things together.
Um, I'm very excited about that. I'm very excited about more people becoming owners in hospitality. I think we're just starting to see, um, uh, A few structural changes take place that have enabled this, that have not existed in the [01:02:00] past. Um, there's traditionally been a very high bar to participating in real estate investment.
Obviously you could go buy some shares in the REIT or a hotel brand, but in terms of, of actually, um, opening up. Access to the underlying real estate. There's, there's a bunch of startups that are starting to experiment in this. Um, uh, one of them I, I came across recently is called here and, um, it enables fractional investment in, um, short term rentals.
I think we'll, we'll see the equivalent in hotels. Uh, but why I'm excited about that is I, I wanna see more owners. I wanna see more people have a stake in the financial outcome of businesses at large and hospitality, because I care about this business. And I think what that does is it helps people think more holistically about how do we build enduring brands here that we're not just spending money and we're, we're unconscious of the business impact of that, but we can [01:03:00] build a long term brand that is good for everyone.
And so the more people that have skin in the game financially in hospitality, the better,
Dan Ryan: yeah, I think this whole, uh, crowdfund. We're at a very nascent stage and it's really like a, a democratization of investments. And I actually, I had a conversation, I think last week or two weeks ago, um, with someone and it was basically, I, we started talking about this idea of being an accredited investor and okay, well, that's great.
Cuz you wanna protect the investors that are in the know they have to have a net worth over this or make over this amount of money. I feel like it, it really, on the other side of the coin, it limits so many people who might wanna try investing in real tangible assets. And you're kind of like leaving them out of the ownership, um, of the drive to ownership where everyone should be a, an [01:04:00] owner in.
So.
Josiah Mackenzie: Exactly exactly right. And we'll, we'll see changes there in the years ahead. I'm, I'm very sure of it because the reality is anyone can put money in highly, highly speculative investments, whether it's crypto or something else that are arguably much more risky than real estate. And so I think legislation sometimes takes a while to catch up with the realities of, uh, what's happening in our economy, but we'll get there.
I think we're starting to see signs of that. And I'm very excited by that. Yeah.
Dan Ryan: It's those things are also much more risky and there's also, you can argue no intrinsic value in that they're not cash flowing. They're not doing all these other things where, you know, on real estate, it, it does do that. And I don't know, I feel like structurally you're Lim, so many people are limited from that ownership society.
And I think it's something that, you know, we're just starting to paddle into and I think it's a new, a wave that's coming. That's that's pretty exciting. Um, Josiah, if. I'm a hotel [01:05:00] op if I'm a, I'm a hotel operator, um, you know, in the independent boutique lifestyle space, why should I read hospitality daily?
Every.
Josiah Mackenzie: Great question. So I do my best to hunt for the very best stories of people that are coming up with creative ways, uh, to not only provide great hospitality as a professional or as an operator in this space. Uh, but to come up with creative ways to delight guests and. The there's so many incredible people in this industry that think about this constantly that are, uh, really inspired to not only provide their guests with that, but to share what they've learned with the industry at large.
And I think that is what is really special and unique about hospitality. Some industries hold all their cards kind of close to the best hospitality. Uh, in my experience has been a very open let's share best practices let's share what's working for us. And so I talk to people that, you know, get as specific as here's how I use my [01:06:00] morning commute to get the right state of mind, to, to serve my guests, to, uh, here's an amenity that I found works really well.
And so what I'm look, what I'm doing is providing a, a quick email each day with just one little idea to try to become better at providing hospitality.
Dan Ryan: Great. And we'll put that in the show notes. So if you do wanna sign up for the newsletter, it's great. I, I mean, I really enjoy reading them as well. Um, from all of your daily newsletters that are going out, has there been one that had like the biggest reach I like which one resonated the most with readers.
And why do you think that is.
Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah, I over the past year, so I kind of geek out on the analytics. Um, the, the past year, the, the one that got the most impact is actually something I posted just a few days ago. And it was that Zuku brand, that Dutch brand that I mentioned. And I think, um, I, it was just a little short story of, of, you know, this, um, that this, this person and this, this company that was coming up with creative ways to, to [01:07:00] monetize this really cool brand.
I think if I had to guess it would be, it, it hit, it hit a nerve because there's a lot of cool design concepts in hospitality. Um, and sometimes there's this question, mark, either for the, the operator or for their investors, the owners, you know, is this gonna make money for us? And, um, here was a brand that had a really cool concept, but was making a ton of money, uh, doing it.
And so I think that connection from cool brand to it makes a lot of money is hitting a nerve with people. And so I'll look to tell more of those stories.
Dan Ryan: Great. Yeah, everyone sign up. It's been really fun to, to read. And I don't know, it's just like, it's a refreshing new perspective from my, from my experience.
Um, and it's also giving me, um, I love it cuz you're giving me prompts of questions to ask people too. So thank you for letting me, uh, I call it R and D rip off and duplicate from you. thank you for the inspiration.
Josiah Mackenzie: Thank you. I'm constantly inspired by people in the industry and I think what's, uh, um, what's been really interesting [01:08:00] for me recently is the amount of conversation that happens on LinkedIn, which is, you know, may, may or may not surprise the people listening to this, but you know, some people initially looked at LinkedIn as maybe just a site.
You pull up when you're looking for a job, but of all the, the places I'm finding the, the best conversations are happening on LinkedIn right now, people are sharing ideas. They're, you know, um, uh, just interacting on a level. That's that's pretty awesome. And so, uh, it's been, it's been a lot of fun. Yeah.
Dan Ryan: I, I I've really loved LinkedIn over the past couple of years.
It's been great. Um, I wanna, so go back to when, how old were you when you were working at that? Uh, hotel down somewhere near daily city or Pacifica on the coast there in the fog, in the cold fog. How
Josiah Mackenzie: old were you early twenties? I was just getting started. Okay.
Dan Ryan: So I always ask this question of people, but like Jo, the Josiah that I'm speaking to right now, if you could teleport back to that younger version of you, where you're making beds, checking people in pouring drinks, doing everything, the [01:09:00] what is it?
The chef, the cook and the bottle washer or something like that. Um, you're doing all of the above. What advice does the desire of today give your younger
Josiah Mackenzie: self? I love the question. It would be, it would be to enjoy the moment. I think something I struggle with is always future tripping and kind of thinking about what's next.
And I look back at that, that experience with very fond memories. It was, um, it defined. How I got started it, it kind of set me on a course that, you know, before I had that experience, I, I don't know if I would've, uh, imagined. And so, uh, I, I think that's something that I strive to do. It's something I would tell my younger self.
I probably need to tell myself now is, is enjoy the process. Right? That's that's where you get the, the most joined meaning.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. The journey is the destination, as they say. Right, exactly. Um, okay. So if people wanna reach out, I know we'll put the, um, the newsletter link in the, in the show notes, but like how can people find you if they would like to
Josiah Mackenzie: [01:10:00] LinkedIn's probably best.
Um, great. Just find me on LinkedIn, uh, and, uh, love connecting with people there. Great. And we'll
Dan Ryan: put that in the show notes as well. Hey, Josiah, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your time. It's been so great. Just meeting you, uh, at skiff a couple weeks ago in our couple of correspondences and interactions.
Um, I look forward to continuing to speak with you and share the delights of our industry. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Josiah Mackenzie: Thanks for having me. This has been a ton of fun. Awesome.
Dan Ryan: And also as much as I'm thanking you, I want to thank our guests. We keep growing every single week. It's awesome. And without you, I wouldn't be doing this and our guests wouldn't be coming on.
And, um, just thank you for letting us share our stories of our awesome industry. And as we try and corral some kind of a definition of what ever hospitality is. So if it did change your thinking on what hospitality is, please, it's all word of mouth. So please share it with a friend. And, uh, we look forward to hearing you next time.
Thank you everyone.
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