Defining Hospitality

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Dan Ryan: Today's guest is a partner at the Rockwell group who leads design studios in the firm's New York Madrid offices. He has combined strengths in architecture and interior design.
He takes on new and unfamiliar typologies beyond hotels and restaurants and approaches them from a hospitality point of view. He has a diverse project portfolio, which enables. And his design teams to create innovative and holistic solutions for their clients. Ladies and gentlemen, Greg. Keer welcome, Greg.
Greg Keffer: Hi, Dan. Excited to be here.
Dan Ryan: I'm so happy to have you here. And actually [00:01:00] I know in, in the intro, just as far as using unfamiliar typologies to help. Your clients kind of achieve whatever they wanna achieve, cuz your, your projects are so varied. Mm-hmm um, one of the things that I find so amazing about Rockwell group is that it's not just that you're doing interior design, you're doing stage, you have a lab, you have all these things.
It's like, it's almost like, and whenever I go there, it's like a laboratory of just like taking some of the craziest things and pushing the envelopes and coming up with like really, um, Boundary shifting outcomes on all of your projects. And so I'm gonna frame it up with that one, but also the other amazing thing I find about Rockwell group.
I know you've been there for almost 11 years now, but there are so many people who work at Rockwell group leave and then come back and I'm just always amazed by that [00:02:00] boomerang effect or just the inspiration or they go out and see, and. There's not very many companies in our world that have that boomerang effect.
And I'm like, what do you think that's all about?
Greg Keffer: Yeah, I think, I think, you know, what, what makes Rockwell special is, is that sort of diversity of project types you work on. But also, you know, I come to work every day and I'm surrounded by people that think different than I think. Right. And that challenge me.
And, and I think that's, what's exciting. Um, you know, when you work in a fairly traditional firm, it might be. Surrounded by people that, that are very similar to you. And so here we know we not only have architects and interior designers, but we have product designers, industrial designers, we have, um, theater designers, we have technology people, we have artists, um, you know, so it's, it's, it's a really diverse group.
And sometimes we like to call ourselves as the misfits in some ways, you know, we or not the typical, um, stereotypical designers. So, so for us, it's just a really exciting mix. And I think how that then gets applied to projects. As what makes our work interesting and as [00:03:00] well, which is, you know, while we have a hospitality point of view, which is really about the human experience at the end of the day, I think, um, being able to work on a train station or a museum or a theater, um, as well as hotels and restaurants and, and workspaces and all these other things, um, You, you not only are sort of applying this lens of hospitality on these different typologies, but it also allows you to sort of cross pollinate things in ways that maybe if you're only doing one typology, you don't really kind of get those influences.
So that's that's, to me when I think it's most exciting when you start to see things merge together and kind of create new typologies and new new ways experienced things,
Dan Ryan: one of the typologies you didn't mention which. Loved. And I would bring my kids there as a playground or playgrounds. I forgot if you did the one down, uh, by the Seaport, but yeah, yeah, yeah.
Greg Keffer: Nation playground. Yeah.
Dan Ryan: It was amazing. Like you're and I feel like you have all of these different, um, silos that kind of [00:04:00] cross pollinate and inspire and really it buyer and real. And then you have your, like from the industrial and the product, uh, and, and technology design. In your labs, it's almost like you have your own skunkworks that kind of informs and implies.
And so you're always kind of on the cutting edge and then winning Emmy's and Oscars. And I don't know, just being a part of all that from on the stage side, it just seems. Like, I don't know, like a designer's
Greg Keffer: dream. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty exciting. I, I think, you know, I think at the end of the day, um, you know, the playground, all these things, the commonality is that it's real life experiences that connect people.
Right. And I think that's, that's a super important thing with all of our work. Um, and so, you know, like the imagination playground was really an internal idea. That, you know, started being played with as a product, um, and then ultimately launched as a company, um, and super interesting, you know, the idea of play and how do, how do people play together?
Um, so I think, you know, those kind of things are [00:05:00] what's what's to me, exciting about coming to work every day.
Dan Ryan: And for those of you who don't know the imagination playground, it's BA imagine a playground. Okay. So there's like some structures, there's some rubberized floor maybe, but there's all these blue blocks and shapes that, that the kids, or I guess grownups or parents are, can go in there and just, it's not, you're not limited to buy whatever the structure is.
You basically can create and break down your own structures. And it just, it, it allows the little ones to. The designers and the architects and the builders. It's super awesome. I think it,
Greg Keffer: it teaches not only creativity and, and, you know, forces, imagination, but it's also also about collaboration. So oftentimes you'll see these kids together building something right.
And they figure out together, like, how are they gonna make this structure? That's huge, you know? Um, and so, so I think there's some really key ideas that, you know, if you're just singularly playing with blocks, small blocks, it's different. But when you're in a large setting group setting with these giant blocks, it's, um, it's an interesting learning opportunity.[00:06:00]
Dan Ryan: Well, then I also loved how you, you said it's, it's like, it's obviously bringing people together. So, and, and also that we can learn so much from children. Right. Because they, I don't know, like, they're just so pure in like their creative output and like what they want to do and how they're gonna, they're gonna go ahead and what they're gonna build and how they're gonna collaborate.
Yeah. And through all these different channels that you guys have at Rockwell group. I love how you're saying. The, the one thing that kind of ties them all together is this hospitality point of view. And I'm the more of these conversations that I have with people. The more, especially at larger firms, they're everyone is realizing the value of hospitality because sure.
It's really, like you said, it's all about those people and, and. And how they experience things. So if we think about that hospitality point of view throughout all of your, your guys' studios, mm-hmm, like, how do you guys in all the different studios [00:07:00] define what hospitality.
Greg Keffer: Hmm. You know, I think, um, hospitality, you know, right now we have a, it's a crazy world, right?
um, there's a lot of stresses going on in the world. Um, whether it be war or bigotry or whatever, all these, you know, and, and it's ultimately pulling everybody apart in a lot of ways. And I think to me, the, the, the true reason hospitality exists is to bring people back together. And I think. We need spaces and places and, um, uh, you know, uh, something that, is a common bond between people.
And I think that's to me, what's exciting about the world. We are able to practice in, Because we're uniting people, and hopefully maybe bringing some people back together that have been torn apart by all this craziness.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. So when you think about the idea of bringing.
Everyone together. Like if, just so let's just pretend you're, you're working on a new project, right? Mm-hmm and maybe it's not in the traditional [00:08:00] hospitality studio, maybe it's it's stage it. I don't know. It's it's something it's a playground. Who knows? Um, how do you guys kick off the idea of. What is this point of view?
How are we gonna bring these people together? Like how do, how do you start talking about that on every single project?
Greg Keffer: I think, I think the first thing is, um, we wanna kind of understand who are we designing it for? Right. And, and, um, what ultimately, what do they need, um, what do they desire? What do they feel?
Um, and, and sort of have empathy for, for that in, in some ways to, to, um, Kind of, how do you create a space that supports, um, what's gonna excite them the most? Um, every project is different, you know, we always also do a lot of research upfront. Um, we, uh, every project we have is narrative driven. So we really like to do the research upfront and build a story.
And from that story start to, to articulate the design. Um, so I think, I think, you know, [00:09:00] it's, it's ultimately. It's about them. And, um, every project we do looks different and that's, uh, the reason for that is that we don't have a set style. We don't, you know, it's really reflective of the need of that project and the, and the users of that project.
Dan Ryan: And when you think about the needs of all the different stakeholders in a project, how do you know after you've developed the narrative and you've presented as a client and either, either at that presentation part or at the, at the end, how do you know. When it just resonates and you've hit it out of the park.
Greg Keffer: um, let's see, I guess, I guess, you know, I don't know if you ever know other than, you know, when you have a restaurant and it's, and it's impossible to get a table at then, you know, okay. Something, something struck there. Right. I, I will say, like, when I look back, you know, kind of at certain moments in my career and kind of understanding, you know, when did you kind of hit a spark, right?
Um, there's certain projects that stick out maybe. And, and, but I don't know that. You knew it when you're in it until you're kind of out of it to [00:10:00] kind of look back on it. Right. And see how it maybe influenced future work or, or, you know, whatever it might have been. But, um, that's always fun to kind of look backwards, you know?
Dan Ryan: Okay. So I love that you used the word spark and, and, and also looking backwards. So if you were to look back through your portfolio, Of that, that you're working on or your teams are working on, like what's a recent or a very, or a past one that, where that spark really just like turned into a flame. And like, you just really, like, it just checked all the boxes and you're like, wow, I wish every project could be like that.
Greg Keffer: You know, um, probably looking back, I, I think one of the big ones was, uh, Noya house, the very first one here in New York. And, um, it was a, it was a co-working space still is, um, for creative types, but it was back then, it was a sort of a new typology. Um, that was really about not only kind of the WeWorks, but also the Soho houses.
And how do you kind of [00:11:00] combine them into this social space as well as a workspace. And I think that kind of at that moment in time, it was when we were really kind of aware of this blurring of boundaries of between typologies and starting to really kind of dabble in that more as a firm. And I think, um, It, it just kind of was this perfect opportunity that we were helping to shape what the, the vision of the business was as well as designing it.
And, um, you know, when you're in it, it was kind of, it was a, it was a challenging process. It was a challenging, um, project to hit budget wise and all of that stuff. But then at the end, you're like, it created something really dynamic and special. And I. Um, you know, it got a, it, um, got a lot of notice out there in the world and I think it also, um, just became a very apparent moment of like how, when you take different typologies and bring 'em together, you get something really unique out of it.
Um, so that was an, that was an exciting one. I think also I look back at like, you know, doing union score cafe for Danny Meyer. Like that was exciting because it [00:12:00] was something that was so iconic. In the city and how do you take that to a new place and, and not screw it up, you know? um,
Dan Ryan: okay, so that's okay.
So let's, let's look at those two things. So one is you're blurring the lines between typology of workspace and hospitality and just countless other things. There's there's entertainment, cuz obviously there's there's stages. There's there's performance, there's light there's AV. So you're really mashing everything together and coming in with something really new and exciting.
And I, I was a member there and I, I loved, I mean, it , it was such a great place to meet people and to go have quiet time and, and right. Breakouts and entertain. Then on the other side, the idea of, and the weight and gravity of having a project and without the fear of wanting to fuck it up, if you will, with union square cafe, because that place.
I [00:13:00] mean, it's such a part of, and you're on union square. Your offices are on union square. Yeah. And, and when that put its flag down and it started, it transformed that whole freaking neighborhood. And he does that with a lot of his places, but like, there's one where you're braving new ground you're you're you're trailblazing.
And then the other where you it's like, oh, don't mess this up. Yeah. Don't mess this up. How do you do it? Like, those are two super different mindsets.
Greg Keffer: That's and that's, that's what makes it exciting. Right. Um, I think, you know, with union square cafe, you know, was Danny's first restaurant he ever, he ever opened.
Right. And so for him, it was a very personal thing too. And so, and obviously I have a lot of respect for Danny and, and what he's built, but at the same time, he didn't wanna do just a. Carbon copy of what he had. Right. Cause that would fall flat. So how do you take the, the basic elements that make made the original?
So great. And how do you make it something new and fresh and feels, but at the same time feels familiar, right? Mm-hmm and so there was little things we could [00:14:00] did, you know, with. I don't know, the bar was the exact same length of the bar that was in the original. So dimensionality and scale were really important.
Um, his art collection that was in the original, we found places for all the art in the, in the new one. So all these kind of things, um, helped to kind of craft the story. Um, but at the same time feels fresh and, and relevant today, I think.
Dan Ryan: And then if you think about on the, from the Noya house experience where you're, you're mash, it's this great mashup and you.
You've created this new kind of workspace environment. Okay. I think a lot of that has to do with your vision as a designer and also feedback with ownership by getting it to be just as you want. But I, I would think that your, that your outlook and, and insights really helps shape that tremendously and on union square cafe.
It's it's awesome. It's it pays homage to, but it is different, but on that side, You know, Danny Meyer has such a, [00:15:00] like a vision of what he wants, like how you're kind of blazing a new path over here. And then over here, like how do you find that balance with someone like, like Danny? So you're, you're really pushing the envelope as you guys do at Rockwell, but also, you know, you have to.
Yields to Danny's uncompromising vision as well.
Greg Keffer: Danny's really easy to work with, to be honest. Like I think he, he has a lot of trust in, in working with us and, um, you know, he obviously brings a vision to the table, but at the same time, he's not, um, he's not micromanaging, he's not over controlling, he's open to new ideas.
Um, and, but at the same time, you. We went into it with a lot of respect for, you know, the heritage and the iconic nature of the project at the same time, you know, while we're doing that, we had the little, um, kind of, he called it a gift to the neighborhood of daily provisions, which was, uh, it's a great little coffee shop kind of back door space.
And, um, so it was, it was so it's, so the same time we're doing something that's kind of legendary at the same time, we're inventing something new for him as well. So it was [00:16:00] a really interesting mix of opportunities. Wow. Uh,
Dan Ryan: daily provisions. I, my first experience with that was Glen Cobin, who used to work at Rockwell many, many moons ago.
He he's like, oh, come check this out. It's really awesome. And I, we had a really great sit down in there. Um,
Greg Keffer: it's so funny. The only time I ever been nominated for a James Beard award was for this little 400 square foot coffee shop. so you never know, like, you know, every project is an opportunity, no matter how small it's
Dan Ryan: a very, very special place.
I mean, that, that place is just incredible. Um, So as you're looking out and you're, you're kind of seeing the landscape of where hospitality is going, and you're getting all these new inputs from your labs and the, and just all the different silos within your company. Um, how do you see what you do as far as design and creating the built environment?
How is it changing or how have you seen it change over your career? As far as bringing people together, as you define [00:17:00] hospitality?
Greg Keffer: How have I seen it change? Um, yeah. Uh, can you get a little more specific on that? Sorry. well, I mean,
Dan Ryan: like when you started your career yeah. Uh, you know, you have all of these you're, you're building all of these spaces, obviously.
Like people always want to come together. There's that root base, like people are coming together. Right. Um, but as guests become more aware, Oh, this is intentional. Or this is like, there's this almost contrive thing. How, how have you seen that evolving? So it's like something totally different and new. How are you?
How are you
Greg Keffer: keeping it? Well, um, I think changeability flexibility, um, day partying. Those are all kind of integrated in every project we do. So you don't wanna have a stale experience. You don't wanna have something that, you know, you've been there once and you've done been there, done that kind of thing.
I think that's also why you see trends of like these popups and immersive experiences [00:18:00] and all, all this stuff. That's, you know, obviously very relevant today. um, but I think it's really about diversity of experiences getting people to come back. Um, and, and, you know, that's, for us, that's exciting. That's why like, going back to the noise house thing, that the idea that the chandeliers are, are set up high during the day and at night they're on cranks and they lower down to be a different level during the day or during, during the night.
So I think just those simple gestures we can do to change from day to night, um, you know, changes the mood of a space and, and makes it a different experience.
Dan Ryan: True. It was super adaptable and, and actually that's been a really, I forgot about those moving chandelier, because if you think about so many of these, especially on the F and B side, it's so hard for a new innovative F and B place to do lunch well, and then transition into dinner.
Yeah. And it's all lighting and being able to change. I, I haven't seen many that have done
Greg Keffer: it well. Yeah. I think if the physical space can change in [00:19:00] some ways, too, right. Beyond just the lighting levels. That's when, to me it gets more exciting. Um, you know, so like for Equinox hotel, our entire bar can disguise itself during the day and at night opens up to become a, a cocktail bar.
Um, so that during the day you're not, you know, morning, you're not having coffee, looking at a bar. Um, those kind of. Wow.
Dan Ryan: And then go looking back at your career and, and where you are and all the studios that you're and your leadership role at Rockwell right now. If you were to look back on your career for, we, I know we all have so many mentors, but is there anyone through your career that.
Kind of stands out as like, oh, this, this person in, as a mentor changed the direction of, of my career.
Greg Keffer: I think I've been lucky in that I've had a lot of people that have kind of set my course. I, I, I've kind of a strange journey into how I ended up in hospitality in the first place. I mean, I, you know, my first job ever was about Skidmore in San Francisco and, you know, doing [00:20:00] high rises and things like that.
And then, um, moved into high end retail and then workplace. um, and, and then. We moved to Chicago and I worked with Eva Mads. She was a huge influence in my career. I think. Um, so Eva, Eva was well known for brand branded environments is what she trademarked essentially. So it was showrooms and, and spaces that spoke to the bigger brand ideas.
Okay. Um, and that, I think that's kind of the first place I ever kind of got exposed to really thinking about the human experience in a way deeper than just designing a space for something. Um, and then, um, and then I went and became a principal at studios, um, based in DC and then later in the New York office.
And I think, um, you know, the CEO there, Todd D Garmo was a huge influence on kind of how do you manage people and how do you, um, kind of. Uh, studios that, that embrace creativity and, and, um, yeah. And, and so I think, you know, and [00:21:00] obviously David Rockwell has a huge, huge influence on me now. Um, so super, super lucky to have him as a partner.
And,
Dan Ryan: okay. So then if you think about, um, your experience with, with Ava and Todd and David, as far as these kind of, yeah. Larger than life, um, Teachers of yours, like in, in what way do you feel that, or what have you taken from them in essence to, to, to pay it forward and inspire and impact those people on your teams?
Greg Keffer: I mean, I think just always being grateful, you know, I think, um, we're all stressed out these days. Right. And we're all at our wits ends for lots of reasons. And I think, you know, we're fortunate here at Rockwell to be super busy at the same time. And I think, um, he just kind of, every once in a while, you gotta remember to just take a breath and say, thank you.
And you know, I mean, I think, um, making sure people understand their value is really important [00:22:00] and something I'm always trying to be conscious.
Dan Ryan: I yeah. Gratitude and appreciation. It's like the, the two most important things. And oftentimes it's almost like for me, it's almost like I have to schedule time to remember to do that.
Cuz you know, we all get so caught up in, in what we're doing. But I think that there's a way through, I guess, imparting gratitude and appreciation for others that we can all kind of like relax, recenter, but then also maintain. Intensity and drive and go forward. And it's, it's a very, uh, it's a very delicate balance to do it.
Um, yes. Yeah. So how that's super important. Yeah. Yeah. And how so, and then how do you do it through your, with your teams that are, cuz now you have, you have offices in Madrid, you have offices in New York, you you're now you got something going on in that Los Angeles. Where are you? Like where are you guys growing?
Greg Keffer: Um, yeah, LA is fairly new. I think it's about two years old now [00:23:00] I oversee three studios in New York plus Madrid. So I have four studios. I oversee, um, my partner, Sean is similar in that he has three studios in New York plus, um, LA that he oversees. And then David kind of floats above that and, and works in the theater world and product design.
Um, but I think, you know, I I'm very fortunate to have senior staff within all these studios that, that are really running the day to day. And, and, um, yeah, it's just, it's a really, it's a really good structure and great people to work with. Yeah,
Dan Ryan: awesome. So I, I know that we've talked about theater a bunch.
Do you ever get pulled into those theater projects?
Greg Keffer: Oh, no, I, I wish I could, but, um, that's David's baby, so, oh, oh really? I get to experience it perfectly with, you know, going, going, you know, seeing his, uh, tech rehearsals and things like that, but I never get to design any of that.
Dan Ryan: okay. But then think about, um, From a lot of that, the theater laboratory, if you will, and then [00:24:00] David pushing the envelopes and with, and just kind of innovating and inspiring.
How many ti can you recall any instances that you were inspired by something that he. Came up with, on the theater side that informed a project that you were doing on the hospitality side?
Greg Keffer: Yeah. I mean, I think obviously theater has a huge influence on our work. Um, and I think it's, it's not necessarily like, oh, I saw kinky boots and I'm gonna take that and put it into project.
Right. But I think, do think it's about being aware of your audience? I think, um, you know, A a dramatic theatrical space is something Rockwell's probably known for very well. Right. And so, you know, designing things like I'm thinking about like cathedral here in, in New York, which is this, um, restaurant that has this huge kind of dramatic installation art installation in the middle, um, you know, that's, that was a very purposeful theatrical kind of.
Space that we were creating. Um, and I, it, but I think it's, is that in the Moxi east
Dan Ryan: village? Yeah. Yeah. Moi. Oh, that place is [00:25:00] awesome. Oh yeah. Okay.
Greg Keffer: It's uh, we created this wire mesh sculpture that feels almost like a ghost structure above you. Yeah,
Dan Ryan: that's amazing. Yeah. That's like a, such a, I felt like I was walking into like thunder dome when I was there.
You know, it was like, it was super cool. Just kind of underneath. Oh, wow. That was, yeah. I really love that place. Okay. So in a way from that stage side, It's informing the theatrics of all the different things that you guys are doing in all of your studios. Sure. I
Greg Keffer: think it's also about and backwards. Yeah.
It's also, how do you tell a story? Right. And how do you, how does the audience receive that story? And, um, you know, David just came out with a book, I think this past year about, um, drama. Right. So, which is about how does theater and design, how do those worlds combine? Um, so there's lot, there's always conversations around that and sort of things to learn from him, obviously.
Mm.
Dan Ryan: And then as you guys. You know, paving away forward and, and pathfinding in many ways. Um, what's exciting. You [00:26:00] most about what you see in the future and your, and your guys' path forward.
Greg Keffer: Oh, um, you know, I think, I think there's a sense of community. That's kind of bubbling up these days with artwork. Um, and so whether, you know, David's always been a, a huge advocate for participating in your community and being engaged, um, you know, things like, um, During COVID, you know, coming out with this idea of dining in the streets and, and how do we create, um, sort of kit parts that allows restaurants to quickly, um, you know, be able to continue operating their businesses when it first started.
Um, but I think, I think that's a, that's something that we're very conscious of and kind of looking for those opportunities, um, to, to always participate in a bigger, um, community spirit in some way. Mm-hmm um, I think, you know, we just came out. Last week or two weeks ago with a new one for public space here in the streets where it's kind of creating these stoops, um, where allows performances and [00:27:00] things to happen in streets, public in, in the city here in New York.
Um, and then obviously we work with DFA and, and, and all that kind of stuff. So, so there's, so I think that's something that to me is gonna continue to be important, especially with everything else that's going on in the world right now. And how do we as a firm. Um, you know, participate at whatever level we can to help make good in the world, I think is, is, uh, something we wanna continue to do.
And
Dan Ryan: for many of those are those initiatives as for the community building and, and reimagining. Um, is that mostly pro bono or do you guys get paid for that as well? It's all pro bono. Yeah.
Greg Keffer: Oh, wow. That we just talked about. Yeah, we do a lot of pro bono.
Dan Ryan: Okay. And then thinking about, um, building community on the streets as far, as far as it with respect to dining.
Yeah. Um, I think one of the best silver linings out of COVID is just the move outward onto the streets for all these restaurants. Not only as, as an entrepreneur and be able to have, be able to turn more tables, but [00:28:00] also I think it's just bringing everyone back to the streets. Like where do you see. Going like, what are you, what are you hearing from the city?
And like, is it gonna stay? Is it gonna be reimagined or are they like, what are you seeing?
Greg Keffer: My understanding is it is staying. Um, and to me, it's right. It's very exciting. Um, you know, working in Madrid, I'm, I'm usually there once a month or so. And that city historically has been a city where dining in, you know, the plazas and, and on the streets is a very common thing.
Right. And there's an energy you get from that, that. Um, you know, you don't get from a traditional city where everything's inside. So I love, I love that it's kind of transformed the city in some ways, obviously. I think there's, there's the next phase I think in this is how do you start to maybe create a little more, um, I don't know how you wanna say consistency in the quality of the structures and whatnot right.
And safety. Right, right. Um, so, so I think, you know, that's probably the next, the next effort, but I think at the same time, it's really [00:29:00] opened up the city in a way that had never been before. And do you
Dan Ryan: like, do you have any favorites as far as, um, What you've seen out there as, as far as the push to outside.
Yeah. That you, we are either involved in or not involved in, you can be a fan. It doesn't have to be a project of yours or it can
Greg Keffer: be sure. Yeah. No, I think, I think one that sticks outta my mind it's right next to my house is, um, the empire diner and Chelsea, they did an amazing job with, um, kind of really building a great structure outside.
You know, has everything from sound system to, to ceiling fans and, and whatnot, but it's, it's really well designed. Um, and there's, there's obviously more than that too, but, but I think that's, it's, I love to see when people are, when they're gonna do it, they're gonna do it. Right. Right. Yeah.
Dan Ryan: And that's been such a, a fixture forever.
I remember when my kids were little, we lived on 20th street. I'd always bring them to that seal park right next to it. Yeah. Yeah. Go inside, get some coffee or a little bike to eat, but good place. Um, yeah. And it's not like it. It's like a, just a neighborhood place that it [00:30:00] kind of just reinvented by what they did outside.
Yeah. Yeah.
Greg Keffer: It's got a nice energy.
Dan Ryan: Yeah, totally. Um, okay. So then, so there's a lot of exciting things out there that are happening. Um, what's giving you, what's keeping you up at night. What.
Greg Keffer: Um, what's keeping me up at night, I would say really about the fragility of everyone right now. Right. And that, how do I, how do I create a space that allows them to.
To flourish with putting creativity front and forward when there's so many things that could be additional stresses outside of the job itself. Right. And so I think, I think that's, you know, we're all learning to how do you balance work with life a little better these days? I think, um, you know, the idea that.
You're not in the office five days a week anymore, which is great. Um, so having that flexibility, but at the same time, making sure that we're still outputting the best work we can. Right. And so, so that kind of keeps me up at night, I think is like, how do I still harness the same [00:31:00] energy and, and inspiration, um, in a world that maybe isn't as inspiring every day.
Okay. So
Dan Ryan: can you think of a recent example of how you were able to find that balance of oh gosh, of doing
Greg Keffer: that specific? Um, uh, no, I, I think it's, I would say, you know, when we're together in the office, I would say, um, it's easier, right? Uh, when you're, when you're trying to come up with new ideas via zoom, it's a little more challenging than when you're around the table together.
Right. Um, I think there's also just, uh, different types of exchange you have when you're in person. So, so, um, while I think the flexibility is important at the same time, I think being back in the studio probably produces our best. Because
Dan Ryan: of that collaboration and kind of free, free flow thought.
Greg Keffer: Yeah.
Yeah. You just get a different energy, right. You can bounce things off each other differently. And, and I think, um, And also just sort of random things happen, right? So, you know, when you're, when you're [00:32:00] remote, you have to have a zoom call or a teams call it's purposeful. Right. And I, I wanna address one thing when you're in the studio, I walk by someone's desk and say, Hey, what, what are you working on?
You know? And, and something, something might happen from that, that wasn't just a, Hey, I need to talk to X, Y, and Z about something. Right. Um, so I think that that random opportunities of ideas are, they happen much easier in studio.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. I don't know if we're ever gonna get back to the full five day, a week, a week thing who knows?
Yeah. But I do think those unscripted collisions, if you will, were that happen, you know, making a cup of coffee or at the water cooler, the proverbial water cooler. Um, I think it's just sorely missed. And so, and it's so many missed opportunities. Because
Greg Keffer: that's just not happening. Yeah. Also think, you know, when you're on a project that might be specific, let's just say it's a restaurant project you might be working with just architects and interior designers, but you're in the studio and you're walking around, you might run [00:33:00] into a tech person or a industrial designer or whatever it might be.
Right. And so again, that that's, that's those collisions of grabbing a coffee and saying, Hey, what are you doing? You know, it's, it's a different thing than if you're just working on a project and it's specific team, a small team, you know, so.
Dan Ryan: Um, specifically in your, I, I think you call it the labs. Is it the labs department?
The, the lab, the lab. Okay. In the lab, they're always put, they're like cutting edge. That's messing with technology. And how often do they have some kind of a breakthrough or, or come up with some kind of a new idea and. Turn it back and like educate everyone in the office. So
Greg Keffer: it's kind of interesting how we work with the lab.
Um, there's kind of two scenarios. So one is we might be doing a project and we come up with some crazy idea that needs sort of a technology, um, component to it. And so then we bring, bring in our lab to say, Okay. Here's what we're [00:34:00] thinking, you know, as this sounds crazy, but then they come back and kind of think through a lot of its different solutions.
The, the other way that happens is that the lab might get hired specifically for a technology project, which happens a lot of times, but then they need sort of an architecture and interior design, um, support to, to bring it to fruition. So, um, so it's kind of two channels, I guess that happens that way. Um, but to me, the most exciting one is, is when we kind of come up with some crazy idea that we need a solution for and, and bring them into the fold.
Um, so it's not like they're sitting around tinkering with new technology, then, then say, I don't know what to do with this. Let's figure this out. It's more, it's more purposeful, I would say. Um, but really interesting group of people. I think we have 25 people there. Yeah.
Dan Ryan: That's so amazing. And so unique because I don't know very many firms that.
Yeah, like an R and D yeah. Lab within them. So if you think about when you, like, what's a hair-brained [00:35:00] idea that either you or one of your studios came up with that, you're like, Ugh, is this pie in the sky? Hey, let's bring these guys in. What's something that they executed really well on.
Greg Keffer: Um, I'm trying to think.
Well, one that's, um, I can sort of talk about was a, it was a, this idea that, um, we were working for a very large bank, uh, international bank and it's for their headquarters. And, um, they wanted us to do their lobby, right. So they hired us for a lobby project. Um, and, and that was it. They had no vision for anything beyond, they just wanted a beautiful lobby.
And so we started working on it and the way we started thinking is like, okay, so what's the opportunity here? Right? What's beyond just a lobby. Like anybody can do a lobby. Like, what are we gonna, how are we gonna twist this a little bit to make it more interesting. And, and we started thinking about sort of the idea of the role of the bank and the community and, um, They have this, they had a grant program that was about, um, every year they would give a certain amount of money to, uh, [00:36:00] local charities or, or efforts.
And, um, but it was kind of a disconnected thing. I don't think people are understood that the bank was doing this is that their foundation. So we decided to make the lobby. A community space that was about the community deciding where the money went. So we created, um, a digital wishing. Well, and, and so the whole idea was that the, the community could come into the lobby space and essentially make a wish.
And, and from the make a wish wish they would come up at the end of the year with where the money should go. Um, so, so. Cool idea. And then we said, okay, now how are we gonna do this? And so that was bringing the lab in and we started talking about this and came up with this really cool idea of essentially a pool of water that has these iPads in front of it.
And you can make a wish from the iPad and you fling the wish off the iPad and it, and there's activators in the water that make it look like it's skipping through the [00:37:00] water and then ultimately goes. Giant crystal space that it then ultimately turns out at the end of the year where the money goes, oh my God.
Dan Ryan: That sounds amazing. So it's like crowdsourced. Yeah. Impact and, and chair. Oh, wow. So,
Greg Keffer: so I think that's, is it open? That's an idea of like how, how we take something that's maybe a very traditional project and, and just twist it a little bit to make it a more meaningful, interesting experiential. Kind of space.
Is that open yet? No, okay. So that's in the construction, but yeah.
Dan Ryan: Okay. So I'll have to come back to you and hear about where that is, because I would, I would love to see that in action. And it's so amazing that you can have these super creative and capable executors of technology and ideas that it's, you know, it's, it's like this symbiotic, like no idea is too crazy.
Yeah.
Greg Keffer: Yeah. I think, I think it's, it's really exciting, especially when you have the people in the, in the lab that can [00:38:00] think big like that and, and do something great. Yeah,
Dan Ryan: totally. And then within the, within the lab itself, um, what's an example of some like real innovative envelope pushing project that they've done.
Cause you know, I I'm mostly paying attention to all the hospitality stuff. Yeah. I'm not aware of that, but like share that
Greg Keffer: with me. So there's a one that just opened up recently is Luminar. Um, which is, uh, we've all sort of been to these, uh, immersive digital environments. I'm sure where, you know, you're surrounded by video and, and, uh, sound.
Um, this is kind of taking it one step further in that, um, the lab. Ultimately, it's a company that's now been spun off from Rockwell called Luminar. Um, but it's these there's first ones in Vegas right now at area 15. Um, and there's one under construction. Oh, sorry. There's one in Atlanta as well. That was the first one.
Um, but there. They're um, immersive spaces, but the content is live [00:39:00] film. And so, um, the first one was a safari where they actually went to Africa and filmed, um, safari and super high deaf. And so you're surrounded by these. Sort of two story high digital high res digital projections with localized sounds.
So if you're standing at one in the room next to elephant, you might hear it there. Or, um, at the other end, you know, the grass is moving and you hear it there, but everything's projected floor walls. Um, and it's a true, like kind of high, high Def experiential thing. I think they're doing the next one is, um, space and, and, um, anyway, there's, there's lots of,
Dan Ryan: and how many people can be in there at once.
Um,
Greg Keffer: I don't know. The actual occupancy is big though. It's like, um, you know, hundreds, right. Hundreds.
Dan Ryan: Oh, wow. And depending on where you are, this it's audio different, visually different. Exactly. Oh my God. I wanna check that out. Well, while we'll put that in the show notes so that people can check it out.
That sounds, yeah. Yeah, it sounds so cool. But it's also just, um, I don't know, like, I feel like as people are [00:40:00] trying to create these new built environments and push the envelope, there's so many places that just actually, I would say most places do not have. That level of capability. So like when you have a new
Greg Keffer: or budget
Dan Ryan: or, or right.
Or budget. Okay. So that goes back to client selection. But when
Greg Keffer: you have
Dan Ryan: like, when, when you hire a, a junior teammate, right. Who's coming on and then. Are there are their minds just blown away when they get to experience that?
Greg Keffer: Yeah. I mean, I think obviously when, when people come on, um, I think you kind of start 'em off slow, right?
You're not just like throwing them in and saying, okay, figure this out. um, but I, but I do think. It's an inspiring place in that, that you, you know, why you may be working on a restaurant project, your first project coming in at the end of the day, seeing all these other things happening, um, obviously peaks your interest and whatnot.
But I do think also at the same time, we do like to throw people in a deep end a little [00:41:00] bit, and this is a place where. People, the people that thrive here are, are not afraid of things. Right. So being thrown into something that you don't know what you're doing, um, the personality that it get finds that exciting is who, who succeeds most here.
Um, and so, so I think, um, It's it's for me. It's, it's a, I love, I love that. I love being challenged with different things, whether it's different typologies or, you know, um, learning about different cultures, cuz your projects are in place. You've never been. Um, I think that's when it's, when it's exciting. I don't ever want to do just another one of those.
Right. I don't wanna do a repeat. I don't um, I always wanna push, well, I
Dan Ryan: also love like. Getting an, a new teammate in, and kind of throwing them into the deep end, so to speak. I think that oftentimes that doesn't ha like, there's like a, a Rite of passage you have to kind of go up. Um, but I do find that when you do throw [00:42:00] someone into the deep end, who is new, they also bring fresh and new perspective and like a clear lens and it's, and it might not be.
The right outcome, always, sometimes it is, but it, it always gives new perspective. And I think we all could have those rookie sparks, rookie smarts more, more, and just be able. Tap into that kind of UN unbiased, unvarnished, unprejudiced kind of perspective and new and creative thinking.
Greg Keffer: I think it's also why we hire from a diverse group of people, their backgrounds.
It's not just hospitality designers who are hiring. Right. Um, so. Some of my most successful people have come from backgrounds that weren't traditional hospitality design. Um, in fact, I, I think one of, one of my strong leaders here in my studio and one of the studios here in New York, you know, came, came and asked me for a job.
He had no design background, never went to school for design [00:43:00] and, um, was doing photo editing for a photographer. And he said, I can come and do, um, Photoshop for you. And I said, oh, uh, I don't know if I could hire you just to do Photoshop . And, um, he's like, how about I just come work for free for a week and see what you think?
And, um, I said, well, I couldn't do that, but I would, I will bring you on temporarily just to see what you can do. And you know, that was a number of years ago and he. Has been amazing. He self-taught himself design and now is probably one of my most, um, uh, successful interior designers in, in the studio. Um, and, and he's become a director, in fact.
So I think, I think that's the, that's the personality that really works here is somebody that's super motivated. Obviously inherently talented, um, but able to like, you know, self teach themselves and, and, you know, my job there was just to give him the opportunities and to give him the learning experiences of mentorship that he needed.
But at the same time, you know, they'll hold 'em back. Right. Mm,
Dan Ryan: totally. That's [00:44:00] amazing. And I'm sure like how many people are working
Greg Keffer: there. 270. Oh my God. Through all,
Dan Ryan: through all the different studios. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Wow. , that's amazing. But I, I can imagine of the two 70 and the new people joining it.
It really must be such a varied, uh, group of experiences yeah. That are coming in because like you guys are really pushing the envelope on so many different projects. It's really, it's awesome. And I, I don't know if I've ever seen you do the same. Twice. Hope not .
Greg Keffer: Um, yeah, but of the two 70, I mean, you gotta think we're also, you know, the reason we have studios is that we're conscious that one, we don't want a big, a big corporate firm, you know, we're not structured that way.
Um, but having the studios kind of allows you that smaller group. Creative energy, um, collaborative spirit. So each, each studio is around between, I don't know, 20 to 40 people kind of thing. Um, and that [00:45:00] sort of allows you to feel like you have a, a home that's tight within the larger structure, but you have the support of a big firm, right?
So you, we have our internal PR department, we have our internal legal and all that kinda stuff, right. That helps us run as a, as a sophisticated large firm. But at the same time, it feels very. Easy and, and collabo. Yeah. Wow.
Dan Ryan: Um, I'm not familiar with Ava who you mentioned Ava. Mads, I believe. Yes. Yeah. Uhhuh Ava Mads.
So what exactly would they do there? I, because I I'm intrigued cuz I think you said it was about building out brand
Greg Keffer: spaces, trademarked. Um, the idea of, uh, the, the concept of branded environments, that's it. So she, um, uh, back in the, I mean, she's, since I think now semi-retired, but, um, the firm was bought by Perkins and will, as many firms were, as many were and, uh, um, but she was sort of legendary in the business, um, for really kind of.
Taking brands and manifesting it [00:46:00] into built space. Right. So she was, you know, she was doing like the Steelcase showrooms at NeoCon and all that kind of stuff. Um, and really became, um, sort of iconic in the design world for, for branded spaces,
Dan Ryan: because the reason why it resonated it had to do with I building these branded environments.
Okay. So for showroom, um, a couple weeks ago, I was talking to Aaron Richter and you mentioned the Equinox hotel. Sure. Um, and it. Okay. Equinox has like a thing, a vision like it from all their, their studios where you work out. But then as they transition in the hotel and there are a couple of brand, there are a handful of brands that have transitioned to the hospitality space, but I'm always surprised.
Like why do you think more? Have not because to me, it's the ultimate. Immersion, if you will in a brand, because like, if you're in a hotel or eating in there, you're like ingesting it, you're breathing. It, you're sleeping there. I don't know why more brands or why [00:47:00] haven't more brands kind of taken that approach on the hospitality side.
Do you think?
Greg Keffer: Um, I mean, I think, you know, you have to have. The connection. So, so, you know, we've, we've been lucky at, at Rockwell to be able to take a lot of brands to the hotel side. Um, so, you know, Nobu as an example, right. Uh, you know, we worked for Nobu for 30 years and designing restaurants and, you know, when they wanted transition into the hotel world, we worked on that strategy and, and then ultimately opened their first one for them.
And, and many more since. um, but it was an easy connection, right? In that that food is an essential part of hospitality and that, that service was and, and how do you, and so the, the jump, the leap to, to a hotel is not that giant of a leap. Um, and it made sense. I think similarly with Equinox, right? It's, it's a lifestyle, it's a, it's a place that, um, you know, obviously health and wellness was a key pillar, but at the same time, um, sort of [00:48:00] this, uh, social class and things like that, that they really kind of, um, represented.
So, so again, it, wasn't a huge, huge jump, but I think, you know, those, those make sense to me. Um, you know, mm-hmm, , I think there's others that may be more challenging just cuz they don't have that direct connect. And maybe it has.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. Maybe it has something to do with just, um, and, and talking to Aaron. I remember with Equinox in particular, like I think he's, he used the word, like tribe.
Like they had a very specific like follow and, and like a fanatical following. And I would assume that's the same with Nobu, everyone who, whoever eats there freaking loves it. And they're going back and back and back and back, but like it's, but it's, it's not meant for every. It's a super tight demographic.
Um, so maybe that's why it is, but I'm sure that there are so many more brands out there that could build out and deliver this totally immersive experience. I'm to me, it's just a mystery. Like, I don't know why. [00:49:00] There's a lot of brands that have rabid followings, but like, I don't know why they're not taking that next step.
Greg Keffer: There you go. Entrepreneurial opportunity there.
Dan Ryan: yeah. Hey, Hey. Hey raving, raving brand. Hey Johnny ive. Uh, let's make an apple hotel. I don't even know how to start that conversation, but it's kind of a, it's a, it's a cool idea. Like, and, and I think, uh, maybe we just haven't gotten there. It's also very,
Greg Keffer: um, it's a crowded market too, right?
I mean, there's a lot of people doing, doing this. And so, you know, I think you have to have a real strong passion for it and, and reason to do it. Hmm.
Dan Ryan: So thinking about the 270 colleagues that you have yep. The really kind of envelope pushing projects that you have going all over the world, all the. All the careers that have started at Rockwell gone, other places, the diaspora, and then the, the many who have all come back.
It's like a real, it's like a, there's a really cool recipe that you guys [00:50:00] have going on. And when you think about like this, um, this catalog of work and the amazing people, like what's exciting, you most about where you all are heading. Hmm.
Greg Keffer: Um, I. For me, I think it's, um, the ability to, to have a global impact.
Number one, um, our work is, is all around the world. Um, I think. You know, it's exciting to, to have a group of people here that are always challenging me. And, um, and I think every day is kind of a, a new day because of that. And it pushes me to think different. Um, Also, I think, you know, for me working with Madrid, you know, there's a different point of view on design and how, um, how they see the world.
And so to be able to experience that, it's exciting for me as well. Um, but I don't know. I, I, I just go back to the same kind of idea [00:51:00] that, you know, designing for joy is probably my, my that's kind of where I am focused at right now in my life is like, I, I wanna make places. Bring people together to experience joy.
And I think we all need a little bit of that right now. And, um, yeah, I
Dan Ryan: think it also that idea of joy and building spaces to spread joy it in a way it ties so succinctly into the idea of gratitude and appreciation. Right. I think it's like this joy, gratitude appreciation. It is this ven diagram yeah. Of amazingness.
And I think that's kind of like. Why we all do what we do, right? Because we, we do in everything we do. It doesn't matter what you do, but if you can tie all three of those things together, you can really figure out why you're doing it and, and impact a ton of people. Exactly.
Greg Keffer: Yeah. I think, I think it's why, you know, we always approach a project thinking about.
At the end user at the end of the day, it's not [00:52:00] about, you know, we don't design by Pinterest. We're not, we're not designing, um, a space just to make it pretty. Right. We're not, we're, we're always starting with a bigger idea and, and I think that's an important thing to be able to get the outcome of what I'm talking about.
Um, mm-hmm you have to, it's beyond just like, should it be blue or should it be red? Right. It's a bigger idea. Um, yeah.
Dan Ryan: Hmm. So everyone in one of our alignment calls, um, In our alignment call, uh, Greg shared with me that he grew up on a farm in, in, in north north of Indianapolis and Indiana. And then you went off to college, right?
Uh, yep. In Indiana as well. Yeah. In Indiana. Yeah. Which, where ball? State. Oh, oh, that's right. Ball state, the jars. Dave David Letterman. um,
Greg Keffer: the jars.
Dan Ryan: Yeah, the jars ball jars. Um, if you. The Greg that I'm speaking to right now went back to the 18 year old [00:53:00] Greg entering ball state. Like what advice do you have for yourself?
Hmm.
Greg Keffer: Um, I think at the end of the day, just always be nimble, always be open. Um, never, never say no in some ways just, um, cuz I think it's about, you know, experiencing lots of different things in your life to kind of find what, what is gonna make you the most fulfilled. I think, um, My journey through my career and my life.
Um, I've been blessed in that. I've had lots of different experiences to ultimately land me in a spot where I was in the hospitality world. I find it the most rewarding sector, if you want to call it design wise. Um, but I think unless you're nimble and open to following your gut in some ways, um, you know, you won't ever find that.
Mmm.
Dan Ryan: Just say yes, just say yes I love it. Um, [00:54:00] so Greg, if people wanna learn more about you or Rockwell, how can they get in touch with
Greg Keffer: you? Um, yeah, you can email me, um, G Keffer Rockwell group.com.
Dan Ryan: Cool. And then we'll put up the rock, uh, Rockwell's website and all that good stuff. Um, I think what I took away the most from this conversation is that idea.
And it's coming up in so many of the conversations, it's that ven diagram of gratitude, appreciation, and joy, and really helping us figure out why we're doing what we're doing, because it, it applies to everything. Thank you for framing it up that way, because I just, I love that visual. So I wanna say thank you, Greg.
And I'm grateful and appreciative that we were able to spend this time together. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you,
Greg Keffer: Dan. This is fun.
Dan Ryan: Yeah, I loved it. It was so awesome. Now I, I, I just think I figured out a logo for the book, so, um, uh, but I also. Wanna thank our listeners, cuz [00:55:00] I was always telling you before, like we keep growing every single week.
It's awesome. I'm humbled. But I think most of it has to do with these amazing guests like yourself, Greg, who are, uh, just coming on and sharing, um, their experience and impacting others and shortening other people's journeys. So, um, if this has changed, anyone's thinking on hospitality or working or careers, please share it.
It's all word of. We're very grateful and, uh, we'll all see you next time. Thank you so much.