Defining Hospitality

[00:00:00]
Dan Ryan: Today's guest started his career working in Highrise architecture, but quickly transformed into a hospitality wizard. He has an eye for decade, a design he's one of two humans I know, and really appreciate from Tasmania.
He is a partner at Dutch east design, ladies and gentlemen, der Cartwright. Welcome der.
Dieter Cartwright: Hi Dan.
Dan Ryan: How's it going? It's good. I really like your wizard
Dieter Cartwright: beard. Oh, good. It's got a few more feet to go.
Dan Ryan: Yeah, it's true. True. Um, that's really [00:01:00] funny. A few more feet. I get that. Yes. Um, so I wanna go back in time, a little bit de to, I think when I first met you, it was with a previous guest on this show named David Kaplan from death and company.
I believe the first time I met you, you were designing, you designed a bar that was underground somewhere down in the battery of Manhattan. It was awesome. And then quickly thereafter, shortly thereafter, hurricane Sandy happen and just washed the entire thing out. And that was like a real heartbreaker, cuz I know how much hard work and love and blood, sweat, and tears you put into that project.
Um, but is that is my memory correct?
Dieter Cartwright: I there thereabouts. Yeah, I think so. It was a funny time because we, I just went to the, um, Sort of closing ceremony of another bar that we opened around the same time. So it was interesting. I was reflecting on the destruction of Demond less than one [00:02:00] year after it being completed.
And yet just the other day, going to the closing party of pouring ribbons, which closed after 10 years, which was an interesting cap on that chapter. You don't normally celebrate the closing of one of your projects, but it seems like the right thing.
Dan Ryan: Well, tell me about that because oftentimes when it's time to close people, stick their head in the sand or they just let it kind of silently disappear.
And there's not a moment of celebration. There are times when it, there is celebration and that's very finite. So what was the, how did you guys decide to celebrate the closure and like, what was that, that, what was that like? That sounds incredible.
Dieter Cartwright: Well, Our old clients and friends at pouring ribbons, uh, just had a good run and lease was up, you know, classic New York story lease was up.
Do I wanna raise, do I [00:03:00] wanna go with that? And, um, I think, uh, I think their point of view was the, the market had changed. Uh, New York had just gone, you know, two years of pandemic. It could be a good time to close the chapter on that. Mm
Dan Ryan: it's interesting. I've always looked at, um, leases as a liability.
Correct. You know, it's like, okay, we have this lease on the book. We have a commitment, we have to honor it. Um, but I, my thinking changed on that specifically as it pertains to restaurants. When I read a book by Danny Meyer, um, I think it's called setting the table. And he talked about when he would set up these really long term leases for his, uh, for his restaurants.
He would look at it as an asset because it allowed him to do all these other things and he didn't have to worry about it and he could redefine a neighborhood. And it's just an interesting way to look at something that most people see as a liability to others. See, as an asset. Did, did your clients, um, look at it that way or was it just time [00:04:00] to move on and try something else?
New?
Dieter Cartwright: Uh, definitely the lasso. Yeah. I don't wanna speak for, for them.
Dan Ryan: Okay. Got it. Got it. Um, and then for, yes, it is. Um, for those of you also, who don't know, I love, as you all know, I love connecting people. So dere has a special PLA place in my heart in the sense that I, of all the connections that I've ever made in my life.
I think I'm most proud of connecting you with Laura because now you are not only. Business partners, but also life partners. And that, I don't know, I'm just very proud of that. And you guys are freaking amazing and what you've gone on to build together is just incredible. And to have some part in that introduction just makes me feel really like at peace with the world.
that,
Dieter Cartwright: that makes you have a special place in our heart too then. Of course, it's, uh, couldn't be better [00:05:00] from, would you like to come and have some drinks to, you know, eight years on?
Dan Ryan: Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Um, well, I'm so happy for you guys. Um, it just doesn't happen that many times. Like I think maybe I've introduced two people that have wound up getting married.
Um, so you really hold a very special, you both hold a very special part place in my. World. So thank you. Thank you.
Dieter Cartwright: I mean, too. I mean, you kind of hit two home runs there cause we got married and we went into business together.
So ,
Dan Ryan: that's not too bad. Well, it's not too bad, but it's also rather, it could be rather difficult. Like marriage is hard enough and then business is also a whole different thing. So, um, yeah, I, I commend you and I applaud you for all of the amazing things that you guys have done on your journey. Thank
Dieter Cartwright: you.
Having a third business partner helps balance things out cause we get to each choose to, uh, decide with someone else for changing.
Dan Ryan: Oh yeah. You have the tiebreaker. [00:06:00] Yes. It's it's the built in tiebreaker uh, so I wanna go back like obviously born and raised in Tasmania. I don't know many people from there.
Um, you start working in architecture, then you decided that you wanted to get into hospitality. Like how did that change go? Cuz most people who are on an architectural path. It's very hard to change gears because they want to build these structures and monuments. How did you, what prompted you to change gears to go into designing restaurants, bars, hotels.
It's, it's
Dieter Cartwright: almost like it's almost, it's hard to say which I was changing gears from and to, to be honest because okay. I wanted to be an architect since I was in single digits, for sure. Um, and you know, during the, the construction of my parents, the first house that [00:07:00] my parents built, I would be running around after the builder with these little house plan that I drawn up saying, can you critique?
Like I was literally seven. Um, but then, you know, at age 18, I like to say, I squeezed a five year architecture degree into 10 years because I was traveling the world and bartending, you know, in London and Spain and back in Sydney. And, and it, it, it bartending and running bars became this big distraction from finishing my degree and pursuing a, a, uh, a career as an architect, but it ended up being the other way.
And then I, it was a matter of just finding a way to put design and many years in hospitality, working in hospitality together. And it just seemed automatic to be designing bars, restaurants, and hotels. [00:08:00] It was kind of like the only thing that
Dan Ryan: was right at the time. And, and it's interesting too, because I think of, you know, to be a bartender, a bar barman bar person it's really.
In many ways, the ultimate in delivering hospitality to others. Right. Because, you know, sometimes you're just getting someone to drink. Sometimes you're laughing with them. Sometimes you're their psychologist, uh, listening to all their problems. Um, and I think you just get a really broad spectrum of just life and people.
Um, what part of that, the interacting with people from behind the bar specifically helped you change gears to design bars and hotels and restaurants.
Dieter Cartwright: It, uh, I, I think, like I said, I don't know which came, you know, which, which cart or which horse came first, but it was the chicken that came first. Yes. [00:09:00] Yeah.
I put the chicken in front of the cart. I don't know. Um, the, uh, I mean, I was a designer through and through. And, and, um, I think, uh, working in bars and restaurants just helped draw out, um, you know, some, uh, that sense of hospitality, I, and really, um, using design as a way to create, uh, a place where people could gather and enjoy and experience.
Uh, but, but using, um, you know, allowing the two to, to feed off each other, they're, they're kind of, uh, as a beautiful symbiosis between the two for me, you know, running bars and, and working behind the bar, you just get to kind of see everything that's going on and you even have this barrier you get to interact, but you can always pull back behind the bar.
[00:10:00] Um, and so just. Really enjoying how people interact and, uh, seeing how you can foster that. Um, you also figure out how the whole thing should be working. So operationally speaking, of course it has to work. Um, but I suppose that element of just being able to create an environment for somebody and as a designer that helps strong appreciation for, okay, we, we can build the car, we can give you the keys, but you have to drive it.
So we can only take you so far as a, as a designer. So we work very closely with operators to make sure they've got, you know, they've got something they can drive.
Dan Ryan: And then in the introduction that I, aside from the wizard part, um, Which I just felt compelled to write. You're not, I know you're not a wizard.
Everyone. Der is not a wizard. Although he may play one on TV. I did say something about decadent design. I feel like I got that from [00:11:00] somewhere in, in some bio of you decadent design. Um, how do you define decadent design? And does, does any of that come from your bar experience?
Dieter Cartwright: Oh, I think maybe, maybe, maybe decadents and wizardry, maybe misnomers in the Des description as to be perfectly honest, honest, maybe some of our work is, feels very decadent, you know, sort of very indulgent and, and rich and actually Deon the project you mentioned while it was ill faded, um, was absolutely to be that.
Um, but in some of our other projects, um,
Dan Ryan: actually you're totally right. I pulled that myself from my experience at Deon decadent design and I totally forgot. Okay. Because we actually, I want, I want, I wanna dig into that a little bit, because for those of you don't know, this was like a really cool underground bar.
Um, and then there were these kind of banquette booths that had these, [00:12:00] for lack of a, I don't know the words to do it, but like a macrame rope kind of divide. It's not macrame. Um, but it Macer may I'm, but it was like this rope dividing screen, but it was actually, you had a Japanese woman who was skilled at the art of like bondage tie, these knots.
It was so freaking awesome. And part of that story was decade and, and awesome. But also I just remember that opening party was just like, amazing. How did you pull all that together? That's that
Dieter Cartwright: is a, yeah. So we were inspired by Kimba. This Japanese form of rope bondage. Um, and so when we're trying to divide the space, we thought it would be very interesting to see if we could use that technique to create screens that were permeable, that create, you know, divided up the space.
And, you know, Dave was there, you know, we presented it and we got [00:13:00] signed off. And then as with every, and that was a really good lesson, early lesson in design. If you are capable of cooking up a hair-brained idea that your client loves you better have the, the aptitude to, um, uh, to pull it off. And so, uh, through research there, we were able to find GUID.
Um, uh, and she came in, she was on site, uh, for a week, while was a construction site. She was, yeah.
Dan Ryan: ING lots of knot. Yeah, that was, it was so awesome. And it, and. and I think that's also just really important in all these conversations that I'm having. Mostly like of all the conversations I'm having many on the design side.
And it's really about like, what story are you telling? How do you focus in on that? And like, and effectively tell that, and for Deon, like, that was definitely a part of the story and it, it made it a very special place as short lived as it, as it was. Thank you, hurricane Sandy. [00:14:00]
Dieter Cartwright: Yeah. It's but that's, that's that, that was a very layered story.
You know, how we named it? It was almost a bit too layered from a, from a branding point of view. There was, there were just probably too many stories. Mm-hmm that were trying to sort of squish into one place. I'd say we're much more, uh, paired back now. And, uh,
Dan Ryan: yeah, so in a way it was almost too much, it was too complicated, but sometimes I find that the, when you.
When you push the limits too far, one way or the other, oftentimes they're very important parts of anyone's journey because it also helps them find their true path as well. Wouldn't you say?
Dieter Cartwright: Yeah. Well, from a, as an experience, point of view, or is it that yeah,
Dan Ryan: all of the above, I, I think really as
Dieter Cartwright: a designer, it was an incredible lesson as, from a, from a process point of view and, [00:15:00] and a fabrication point of view implementation, you know, lots of good lessons there.
Um, but yeah, you, you came backfire though, because yeah. Maybe someone went to Demi mono, oh, this is great. But then they wrote the York review, which I love too much like a pirate ship cuz they saw ropes and, and just understood it was the rigging of a, of a ship. So you've gotta really you've really. Yeah.
Dan Ryan: You've gotta, but then you, then you could change the uniform of everyone working there and give them an eye patch to totally
Dieter Cartwright: have an eye patch. Yeah.
Dan Ryan: oh, Jack. Now we can start talking about, uh, Johnny de, which we won't. Um, Jack. Um, okay. So through all these, the processes and journeys and your, your creative process and your evolution to where you are with Dutch east design, um, as you, as, as all three of you look in your past, as far as all of your, where you all came from and how you all came [00:16:00] together at Dutch east, and like where you're going right now, how do you think you've taken your three, as far as the, the partners not including like in, you could also include snippets about everyone on your team as well, but like with the three of you coming together and bringing all of your past sensibilities, how do you think you marshaled all those together and created a new focus and a new path forward?
Dieter Cartwright: Well, three strong personalities with, uh, design sensibilities that at times align and at times do not align. Um, you need to, um, you need to see whose voice, uh, in a way I'm gonna say loudest, but who, who, what is res who's resonating whose point of view is resonating most? What, what is, uh, what's bubbling to the surface, [00:17:00] I guess you could say, and, and you just create, you just make space for that.
And I think it might sound a little too organic, but, um, uh, you, you, um, I think that's one way we take an approach. Um, okay. We each have, we each have design leadership over different projects. Um, which is a really good way to do it. Um, and yeah,
Dan Ryan: so let's go to an example of where you guys, your, your opinions on what the outcome is divergent, right?
And then you, you said that you want to, you wanna find a way to like allow or allocate space for that. Okay. So you're, you, you feel like you guys are going a different way. How do you bring it back and create that space in so that it's, um, collaborative and that at the end you're you guys are all good with, with the path that you're [00:18:00] going.
How do you create that space? And what do you do with it? I guess is my question. Yeah.
Dieter Cartwright: You, you,
you, you have to hand it over. You've gotta let go and, and acknowledge someone's direction. and, um, uh, and ownership that's, it's this that's the way we look at it. I mean, we just opened ho hotel, Marcel, uh, like maybe not even four, four weeks ago. Um, that is an example where one of us, um, led the overall cohesive design vision that was Lara.
And then the two other partners come in and support in our various expertise, um, understand the, uh, the overall, uh, direction mm-hmm, own it, buy into it and then [00:19:00] be able to, uh, collaborate, provide input, um, and take ownership of smaller parts based on that kind of core direction, that core set of principles that have been established.
So. So you, you you're there specifically enough?
Dan Ryan: actually,
Dieter Cartwright: I, I that's one project.
Dan Ryan: That's a good example. No, but you beat me to the punch on hotel, Marcel, because actually I wanted to get there at some point, but let's just do it right now, because for those of you don't know, hotel, Marcel, it's a Hilton Curio in new Haven.
It's not a Hilton Curio. What is it? Tapestry a tapestry. I'm sorry. It's a, it's a tapestry by Hilton apologies. Um, it's in new Haven, but the name, the hotel and where it is, I think as important as all that is the most important thing I think is that it's the first net zero hotel in north [00:20:00] America or the world?
No, no. In the us, yeah. In the us. Okay. Yes. So for those of you who don't know, I would like de to explain what net zero means, and as you're explaining. To me, I think from a sustainability perspective as like humanity, I think it's a great first step, but where do you see this going into the future?
Dieter Cartwright: So to, it's got a couple of other accolades it's shooting for as well.
It technically it's not net zero yet it has to have one full year of operation. So you, you, you see it through all it seasons. See it perform in all, all, uh, all months of the year, essentially that zero means that it's, it's using less than it gives back in, in very simplistic terms. It's zeroing out. Um, it's also aiming to be a lead platinum hotel, uh, [00:21:00] and, uh, shooting to be the first passive house certified hotel in the us.
And that's more, that's sort of, that's a us, sorry, European. Certification that our client is, uh, is implementing in the building as well. So there's, there's sort of three, that's a ven diagram of three overlapping, uh, set of parameters. Um, what's interesting about net zero though, is you, you are, you're not actually required to be disconnected from fossil fuels.
You can be net zero, but using fossil fuels. Uh, but in this case, we're completely disconnected from all fossil fuels. So, uh, given the, uh, the commercial kitchen on premises for the restaurant functions on the electricity alone, no gas, really. So they're the, they're kind of the three targets. That's one big aspect of the, of the, of the project, uh, but also, uh, doing an adaptive reuse [00:22:00] of a mid-century brutal icon.
It's, uh, it's also pretty awesome.
Dan Ryan: I mean also building, yeah. I mean, the building, as a, as an example of brutalism, like right off, that's kind of like close to the water near the freeway, by the train, say it is like, it is this huge monolith and to, to see how that's been reimagined as a hotel is like completely mind blowing.
And from all I haven't been there yet, I will go soon, but it's like, it's from all the photos I've seen all the press I've read about it. It's just, it's amazing. And it's when you're walking in it's app, from what I'm seeing is totally not brutal in any, any way, shape or form. No,
Dieter Cartwright: no, the building, it can be a little alienating.
Um, yes, it's in the Ikea parking lot. Right next to the 95. I 95. Um, our, our goal was to reintroduce the [00:23:00] public to brutalism to show them. That a, uh, this large concrete exoskeleton could actually house something very warm, inviting, and human inside. It's a matter of opinion, how, what you, how you regard the exterior, um, you know, voted Connecticut's building, uh, you know, um, I'm sure there are, I think it, I think it's beautiful.
Um, I also have a, you know, close and long relationship with, with brutalism, uh, living in London for a while. Uh, but, um, we really show, uh, soft to that by stepping inside, uh, engaging with some of the same principles, you know, truth of materials, like, like the, the cast concrete on the exterior. Um, but creating something really inviting and human and not alienating, not high brow and forcing some [00:24:00] historic nostalgic agenda.
It's just this, this is a, a beautiful place for people to, to socialize, to meet, uh, to stay a few nights, have a meal, hold an event. And
Dan Ryan: then for all the people that say let's just use in hospitality, oh, net zero. It's not realistic or it's too hard or whatever objection they may have. How do you handle, like from your experience, how do you handle those objections?
Number one, and number two, what, how does this excite you about the future?
Dieter Cartwright: Um, I mean, I acknowledge those objections cause it is hard. Um, it's, it's especially difficult, um, in an adapt reuse because you've gotta fit, uh, in some cases complex building systems into an existing building. Uh, but ultimately if you just, and our client will say this too, um, [00:25:00] if you just make the decision.
To disconnect from fossil fuels and find a way to generate your energy on site. Um, it it's, you know, if you make that decision or, uh, set it as a target, um, perhaps you can achieve it, but don't, don't treat, I think each classification or qualification in sustainability is really important in stone. Right.
Uh, I think they really work when you layer them up, take the lead, the passive house, um, net zero set, you know, once you layer these, uh, qualifications up, that's when you start to get a building that's performing really well on, on a sustainability level. Um,
Dan Ryan: yeah, so to hear. So to set the goal, you think
Dieter Cartwright: about why I was excited about the future, but, um, oh no, we're
Dan Ryan: we're no, we're gonna, we're gonna get there in a second because also to obviously [00:26:00] vision is important, right?
So you get to the point where you're like, okay, the objective is no fossil fuel. No, no fossil fuels, like let's just do this and everything else will organize around that vision. Right. And then implementing that and all, all the difficulties, like, what do you think from the, the key results that you implemented?
What do you feel? What moved the needle the most towards having that be off of fossil fuels and generating its own power?
Dieter Cartwright: What Mo um, as a practical implementer, as it, something to execute on.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. So obviously I'm thinking like it has to do with. The operations, the MEP of the building, like what? Oh, like what?
Yeah. Like what, what category really move the needle the
Dieter Cartwright: most? Well, I mean, onsite generation of your electricity. Mm-hmm I mean, the whole roof is covered in Al takes as are, um, many [00:27:00] of the car park canopies. So generating electricity on site, um, implementing the latest technology you can in battery storage.
Um, on top of that, you are also doing your very best to lower energy consumption and that's done by creating a, a, a perfect seal of the building, you know, establishing a, a satisfactory temperature. Inside. And then, you know, managing heat gain and heat LUS by having a, a very well insulated sealed building, uh, on top of that, reducing energy consumption by using power over ethernet, which is a technology that's not being deployed in, uh, many hotels at the moment, but that power over ethernet it's literally exactly as I describe it.
So all the lighting in the building, uh, is powered by our ethernet cable at low voltage. So there's no, [00:28:00] there's no line voltage, uh, lights in the whole
Dan Ryan: building. So EV every single light is connected via connect a five, like a cat five cable or whatever, cat seven or whatever the latest way. Yep. So then as a designer, that must have really changed your whole pallet of all the things that you're used to working with.
It's just like, it's like the supply. Must have been very difficult to like figure out what's available and how to make that
Dieter Cartwright: work. You, you would think. But it, it really wasn't that constricting really. It's a very glad you asked. I'm so glad you asked this, cuz this is, this goes back to that question. Oh, these these standards are too hard to attain.
We can't possibly do that. Um, did it narrow down our selection of custom fabricators for the lighting? Yeah, a little bit, but still there are plenty that we could choose from who had experience working with power booth and that on top of that, um, [00:29:00] one of our favorite vendors, rich, brilliant, willing, already, already had all of their fixtures adapted to power net.
So that was easy. Um, and then from a design point of view, it actually gives you incredible flexibility. So if you imagine having to coordinate all your, uh, wide lighting with, um, junction boxes, conduit, All that go. You have to worry about that anymore. So we could integrate, uh, lighting into furniture much more easily.
If you can imagine a, if you imagine a bedside lamp, uh, built into a headboard, for instance, instead of having to line that up with a junction box and coordinate all the, that with the electrician, uh, you're, you're simply running a cat five behind it, and it's a holding
Dan Ryan: trade. So, and that must save a lot of money because you're not, you don't need unionized, uh, electricians [00:30:00] everywhere.
Dieter Cartwright: It it's, it could save some money because you don't need that licensed professional doing the work. Uh, but I'd be curious if they end up being rushed after all. Hmm. Uh, I'll get back to you on that, but it just, the design flexibility is incredible
Dan Ryan: and those rich, brilliant, willing guys are. Amazing. Did I, do you know that my office used to be right next to theirs?
When I was down on Christie street,
Dieter Cartwright: I thought you were about to tell me you leased them space because that
Dan Ryan: no, no, no. You've done that a few times. No, they, uh, actually it was on Christie street at 1 95 Christie street. I was, I forget what floor I was on, but my door was here and their door was there.
Right. When they were starting. I think they were mm-hmm just outta Rhode Island school design. The three of 'em. Yeah. And, uh, it's been so cool to see them and their, their meteoric rise as far as like all the things that they've done and now they they've just moved. I wanna say upstate somewhere and that they're doing their fabrication there and they have a showroom on 20th [00:31:00] street.
Did they? I don't know if they moved everything from Guana up upstate, do you, you don't know. I'll have to get them on and talk to them. I miss those guys. Yeah. They're so fun. They're awesome. They're yeah. Um, so go. So thinking about all these transformations and, and being surprised that. It actually wasn't as hard as you thought it would be from a material selection perspective, um, and technology perspective.
Um, one of the things that I found as we are all talking about sustainability again, is I find that most people and most companies are loath to open themselves up to the rigors of whatever measurement system that they're, they're going by to like see what the carbon footprint is or what the cradle, a cradle, um, impact is over the life of a product.
And I just speaking from my experience, I think one of the things that I truly believe in is we might not [00:32:00] like what we see at first because we're measuring, but you can't change anything without measuring first. So, and I, I, I I've said this a bunch of times, but like back in 2008, I became a lead accredited professional.
And it was really important supply chain changed, but then it kind of just, people stopped talking about it for a while. And now with the rise of ESG investing on the debt and equity side, it's becoming important that we have a, a number and that we have some sort of a measurement and while imperfect, it's a great start so that we can all see what the impact is and see where we, where the low hanging fruit is that we can make the most impact, which then will get me back to the question that I cut you off on a few minutes ago.
It's like, so in going through this experience of building the first net zero hotel in the United States, what's exciting you the most about the future as far as what you've learned there and how you're sharing your knowledge with other people who may be asking. [00:33:00]
Dieter Cartwright: Well, having conversations like this is exciting and the property getting, uh, uh, plenty of press and our client, uh, Bruce Becker.
Who's also the architect for the project, uh, having a new platform cause it was his first hotel and he, he may not do others. Um, but I think he's, he's been opened up to a whole platform where his initiatives can actually be, uh, acknowledged and absorbed by, uh, a whole industry, um, uh, hotels, which consume massive amount of, uh, energy of course, and not, not the most efficient, just by definition of the, the turnover.
Dan Ryan: Your client basically had the outcome that they wanted. I want this to be the first NetZero hotel.
It basically became a laboratory for them. Mm-hmm right. And now, okay. So it it's proven that it can be done. [00:34:00] What are the barriers to this rolling out? Or how quickly do you see this rolling out and how, how can you through the press and everything else that you're getting spread the gospel. So to speak of, of, of accelerating this.
Dieter Cartwright: So let's talk to the, the barriers of any, any, any the barriers to any change are institutional practices. Whether the institution is a field of design, a discipline of design or an aspect of construction or manufacturer. So you're asking, maybe a whole industry to, change how it does something, which as we know, it can take a long time, um, asking a mechanical engineer to do something completely differently, asking a contractor to, uh, do something new.
Um, so that's, that's, uh, they're the barriers I think. [00:35:00] Um, but once you, I think if you can gather the, right people around you and, state your mission You, can set out, you can achieve, what you set out to achieve. As an example, um, we attended a symposium at, uh, grace farm recently that in which is in new Canan Connecticut, uh, which was, um, which was on reducing slavery, using slavery, modern slavery in the construction and fabrication street in fashion and, and construction architecture, uh, and furniture manufacturing, and, um, and one co contractor who spoke at that symposium said when, when they kick off a project with this, uh, new agenda, rather than talk to all their usual subcontractors and [00:36:00] say, okay, you have to account for all your materials.
You have to tell me every single material came from such and such source and guarantee that there was no, uh, slave labor. Okay. Um, Which is very daunting for every run in the mill subcontractor. If you think of a, a, you know, three subcontractors, three electricians BI in a project, and they have to account for every piece of conduit and wire.
So what that contractor they did. He, he just made each, uh, subcontractor on the job, um, kind of own one thing and say, track this one thing, please just follow, follow this through. And that was a way to set an achievable goal at the same time as getting them to buy to a mission, um, starting small, and maybe that can grow out of that.
Dan Ryan: I'm actually super surprised that [00:37:00] the word slavery would be used when, when discussing like material supply. I mean, I would think. I'm super surprised by that, because I feel like with most of the, or, I mean, all the factories I've ever worked at, I don't know, everyone's paid a wage and you, I guess, as you go further up up the supply chain, who knows what you would find, but like, I'm just actually shocked that that would even be a thing to be discussed.
Dieter Cartwright: Yeah. It's a real thing. This thing. Oh shit. All the stuff that goes into your cell phone, you trace it back to a mine somewhere. Um, yeah. It's worth investigating, uh, all those
Dan Ryan: rare earth, rare earth metals and materials from Congo. Okay. So, okay. Yeah. I'm thinking more stuff made of made of wood, like, which is mostly what I deal with.
I just can't imagine. And I've gone through major, um, Compliance rep, [00:38:00] uh, like initiatives through, you know, doing work with Disney and all this, where they go so far up your supply chain to like, they go to the forest, they go to the forest. Yeah. They go to your forests, they go to your, your glue manufacturers, they go to your hinge manufacturers and they have to make sure that they're, that's great.
I guess there's no children, which I guess is tantamount to slavery making stuff, because could you imagine what would happen to Disney? If some report came out that, Hey, there's kids making this furniture, like that would be the worst thing ever aside from the bad optics. It's just fucking horrible. Yes.
To be, to, to, to think about in the first place.
Dieter Cartwright: Yeah. Anyway, the good thing is that whether it's about, uh, let's just call it malpractice on any level. Um, there are, there are initiatives to, uh, to mitigate it. Um, mine, you know, there are, there are, there are companies who make it, their [00:39:00] job to go up that supply chain.
Mm. Yeah. Uh, mind click is a good example, Mart, uh, starting to mandate that you have mind click, um, uh, follow the breadcrumbs on, on your, uh, your, your respect package, basically. Um, mindful materials is another organization that, that, uh, is following up on, um, on labor practices. So there, there are, um, there are groups out there who are making this, we're making this, uh, easier for a designer or a client.
Dan Ryan: I, I, yes. Well, I'm a huge fan of mind click. I've been through their process a couple of times, and mm-hmm, , it makes it easier for you, the designer in the sense that there. They're vetting things. They're going up your supply chain. They, they want documentation of every which way. But as a manufacturer, it's not easy.
Like you it's really a ton of work [00:40:00] and it's a ton of documentation and it's a ton of reporting, but ultimately it all comes down to transparency. Mm-hmm and I don't know, many manufacturers are just, you know, they don't wanna reveal sources or supplies or suppliers or whatever, where they're getting things.
But I think as we think about how can we really know where everything is from, everyone needs to do this. And while I said before, like, we might not like what we see at first. It's a great, it it's so necessary to that first step. Cuz again, if it can't be measured, it can't be changed.
Dieter Cartwright: Yeah. Remember you use the word betting, but in, in many cases they, they are just reporting mm-hmm mind.
Click are just. Nobody's saying you can't do that. You're just saying, if you do this, this is what it will cost you from a carbon footprint point of view. It's the reporting that you're speaking of, that's the that's, that's, that's the best place to start.
Dan Ryan: And then what I also love about it is it's not [00:41:00] like a binary red or green, right?
It's Hey, let's look at the whole life cycle and see, because like we all can't be perfect. But if we look at everything in its totality as a manufacturer, but then as a project or as a portfolio of hotels or as a country, then we can really start to make change and see, see where, what levers we want to pull on to make the, uh, the biggest change.
Hmm.
Dieter Cartwright: Um, yeah, it's, it's a bit of a mind feel to be honest. Yeah. But
Dan Ryan: it's good. And the only way to change is we, we have to, everyone has to be willing to take that first step. So going back to the question of this net zero for hotels, how do you see this. Rolling out, like I'm sure with all the press, you must be getting a ton of, uh, interest from other clients that are like, Hey, we wanna explore doing making this hotel in net zero.
Like, what are you seeing out there? What's the chatter is, is a wave coming.
Dieter Cartwright: Um, I dunno if it's a wave. Um, I think, I think around, [00:42:00] around net zero is the whole question about, um, uh, electric electricity generation, I think. And that's a, that's a massive global conversation. Uh, um, as, as, I mean, I, I dunno we should even go into that, but, um, um, I think that's, that's a really big question about weighing fossil fuels against, uh, being able to generate electricity, um, as we are all taking, um, I mean, if, if every car tomorrow switched to electric, the whole country would have a meltdown, basically.
So we have to transition very slowly. We just don't have the infrastructure. Maybe it's with micro grids or, you know, don't, don't have a, a Countrywide infrastructure. Don't have just a local infrastructure, but, but just somewhere in between.
Dan Ryan: Um, well, I, I also think about, you know, if you, we look at the traditional [00:43:00] fossil fuel companies, so the Exxons the mobiles, the British petrols that, you know, all the Aramco, Saudi Aramco, really what they are.
And I don't know if they really look at themselves this way, but they're energy companies. Correct? Mm-hmm so, okay. Yes. The majority of their business is fossil fuels because it's the most easily distributed and harvested and delivered to everyone. But if you start, you mentioned the photo photovoltaic cells that are on top of Marcel and also on the parking garage.
I heard a few years ago that. The efficiency on photo VI VoLTE excels are, is following Moore's law. And I don't know if that's still the case, but it basically, what that means is the efficiency is doubling every 18 months. Where if you think about, if you plot that out five or 10 years into the future, it's not too far away.
If, if it, if that improvement still keeps going, that many of these companies really need to switch to being [00:44:00] energy companies, it also draws into question like some nation states of what makes them so powerful or important in the world. Seeing like once those fossil fuels go away, like what's the point.
Dieter Cartwright: Yeah, yeah. Maybe we don't have those,
Dan Ryan: but it's, but it's, I mean, it's, it's heavy shit, but it's also, I think it gets up closer to that, you know, star Trek, future where, you know, we, I think that with energy consumption, you know, It's also, I think you could plot human progression in alignment with whatever energy consumption is.
Right. So whether you're building atom Smashers or, or nuclear power pants, plants, or spaceships or satellites, none of that's possible without energy, massive
Dieter Cartwright: energy.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. And if we can get to a point where there's like unlimited energy, I mean, it just, you know, it's, we start walking into the world of star Trek and I I'm [00:45:00] really hopeful.
I know like, things are really crazy in the world right now, but I'm hopeful that that unlimited energy future is not too far away. And I'm hoping that, and again, it's all these things where it. Rain waterfalls start with one drop of, of water, right? So it's like, how can this net zero hotel or all of the other initiatives that are happening or the, the I improved efficiency in photo Vota excels.
How can that all be these single drops of water that are leading to this, to this waterfall?
Dieter Cartwright: Well, I mean, go, let's look at just the, the choice not to build a new building and reuse an existing building. I mean, that alone is, uh, is the first initiative made in this case that, that, uh, probably made the most impact, to be honest.
Yeah. Cause you, you can build, uh, an extremely sustainable building, but if you build it from scratch, um, that may offset all the [00:46:00] gains you just made in energy by, uh, by making it operate sustainably. So that, that may actually be where you, you make your first, uh, significant impact.
Dan Ryan: Totally. Um, and I, I, I think about like when I started doing, before I started doing these podcasts, I was writing a lot of these articles on like design in our industry and, and it, it became quite laborious, but one of the articles I wrote was on adaptive reuse mm-hmm
And by all the metrics that one had the most legs, like it got the most likes and the most readers and like it was thousands and thousands and thousands. And I feel like there is a need, there is a desire for that. And again, that is kind of a layup. When you think about not tearing something down and using all the energies and materials to build something new.
Yeah.
Dieter Cartwright: I mean, I mean, just as an interior designer in New York, everything is an adaptive for use. I mean, totally. As soon as you've done half a dozen bars or [00:47:00] restaurants in Manhattan, you realize that you're, you're always, you're always, uh, finding opportunities in what already exists, uh, and seeing the economy and that alone.
Um, you're also building on hopefully, uh, the cultural and social, um, heritage or, or, um, strength of an existing building, sitting within a neighborhood. Maybe there's something, uh, not maybe as often, um, uh, huge benefits to, uh, breathing new life back into a building, um, and capitalizing on its strengths.
We've been lucky to have, this is our third, uh, adaptive reuse in historical building. Um, and we're just about to kick off another one. So it's great. It's uh,
Dan Ryan: yeah, keep [00:48:00] up, keep up the good work. So as, and that's super exciting to me that, you know, oftentimes the things that we can. Have the biggest impact or just sitting there already there, right in front of us.
We just can't see and reimagine how to use it. So that's really exciting about the future. Um, when I think about that exciting star Trek future, if you will, like, what's keeping you up at night right now as de at, and Dutchies like, what's keeping you up right now.
Dieter Cartwright: I mean the, uh,
user anxiety. Yeah. Or what, well
Dan Ryan: anxiety or like, what am I
Dieter Cartwright: really excited? What, what am I so excited about that I just can't go to sleep?
Dan Ryan: Uh, no, I did that. That would be on the good, on the good side. Yeah. I mean, like, as, as you're looking and, and doing these really great adaptive reuses in hotel, Marcel, and at zero, like as you start, as you see this promise of a star Trek [00:49:00] future, like what what's giving you pause or concern about getting to that point.
Dieter Cartwright: Uh, our ability as a, you know, as a culture or society to adapt at the rate that's required.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. Because with all the information and technology and everything, it's all changing so fast that maybe we're like the dinosaurs and we can't keep up.
Dieter Cartwright: Yeah. Well, we're not adapting fast enough to, to the current needs, whether they're social or cultural needs or they're very practical needs about just our survivability.
I think that's, I think that's the biggest concern.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. I mean, I always sardonically joke about, okay. So we're all talking about sustainability and moving the needle and making a difference, but are we as people. Sustainable. [00:50:00] that? That's the, yeah.
Dieter Cartwright: I just pick out curtains for a living dad. I
Dan Ryan: well, but I, I do think that I don't know. And I'm the eternal optimist, but I do feel like there is a desire for change and adapting and improving, but it's also, you know, you pick up the newspaper on any given day. It's also kind of a downer here and there. Yeah. So, so getting away from the downer parts, um, aside from everyone's push into sustainability, the new adaptive reuses projects that you're working on, like what's exciting you most about the future.
Dieter Cartwright: Um, I'm going to take the practical needs of sustainability as an automatic. Um, need that we, that we're going to fulfill. The thing that excites me most is, [00:51:00] uh, breathing new life back into neighborhoods or, um, moving the needle for, to affect positive change. Mm-hmm whether it's just a building alone or yeah.
A neighborhood. Um, yeah, that's, that's what I'm most excited about finding a, engaging in a new market, finding a new project and just falling in love with the, the best parts of it and bringing those to life.
Dan Ryan: Great. And then, yeah, that's awesome. So if I think about everything that you've learned at Marcel, and then obviously you're not in an island, there's other people that can be inspired and learn and grow from that.
Um, Have you had any, um, industry competitors, colleagues, like, are you having a lot of sidebar conversations or panels or education where you're like [00:52:00] helping shorten their journeys towards what your experience was?
Dieter Cartwright: Yeah, we're talking much more seriously with brands now. Um, because they are probably best equipped to affect change, um, because they can to some degree mandate, um, some practical changes that are, that we need to make just by adopting a certain brand.
They may come with standards. Uh, so that, that could influence, uh, the sustainability of the building or our design. So that's their, their, the more interesting conversations we're having at the moment. And. Uh, speaking to more vendors who we discovered have a whole department focused on, um, advancing their product from [00:53:00] sustainability point of view, like whole roles that I didn't know even know existed so that their, um, yeah.
Brands and vendors, uh, where all those sidebars are going. Sure. Not the
Dan Ryan: developers yet. okay. Well, we'll have to have some of those, um, sidebars, cuz I got some exciting stuff to talk to you about off offline. Um, but I think the brands and educating the brands as far as, and using the case study, like have you building out the case studies on Marcel and educating the brands, I think could bring about some very fast impact because you know, you think about when they're communicating upward within their organization or even downward to the architects, designers and other consultants, uh, general contractors that are helping build their properties.
Um, it's like a. A one to many, it's like a real megaphone, if you will.
Dieter Cartwright: Yeah, absolutely. It's like, you know, don't try to make a, you know, a, a series of small changes. You may be able to make a, [00:54:00] you know, a larger change as a result. Um, the, you know, the, the consultants, there are a lot of barriers. And if you can just start, um, if you can make aspects of a project, uh, more accessible to a larger audience, you know, like the Poe thing is a good example.
You know, it's, it's definitely a new territory for a lot of people. Uh, but if you just start to introduce people to the fundamentals of it, the advantages, and then you have to start bringing in consultants and, uh, contractors who know what they're doing. Because you have to identify your opportunities to fail and then remove them.
And, and that's how you can make that accessible. Yeah. And
Dan Ryan: we also need rich, brilliant, willing to get on their soap boxes and tell everyone that you can actually power lights through cat five cable. Like I had no freaking idea. [00:55:00] Yeah. Come on
Dieter Cartwright: guys. Well, you know, there are other layers to it, Dan, and
Dan Ryan: that's why I'm just I'm bus, I'm busing, your chops and their chops.
I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be texting them as soon as we hang up. Be like, I had no idea. This is amazing. Educate me. And they'll probably be like, we have 47 YouTube videos about this. Like, why aren't you watching this? I was like, oh, I guess I'm not looking in the right place. That
Dieter Cartwright: might be the case. Yeah.
Dan Ryan: Mm.
Um, so der, going back to the 18 year old der, uh, you're, you're going around, you're traveling, you're bartending. And then the de of today that I'm speaking with, let's say you guys meet up. Somewhere, let's put you in London, you bump into the 18 or 19 year old de what advice do you have for yourself?
Dieter Cartwright: to, to give the 18 year old version?
Yes.
Dan Ryan: Maybe the wizard. This is the whi the wizard beard is talking right now to the 18 year old Dieter. What, what, what, what, what guidance [00:56:00] do you have for yourself?
Dieter Cartwright: Oh, geez. I'm, it's almost asking me if I have regrets. Um, but I, I, um, uh, maybe phone home more often
Dan Ryan: make mom and dad happy. Yeah, that's a good one.
Yeah. I think my parents would've appreciated that.
Dieter Cartwright: Yeah. But, um, you know, yourt
Dan Ryan: phone home. Yeah. Okay. I love that. So no regrets phone, home. Be a better, be a better son. Yeah.
Dieter Cartwright: Family's everything.
Dan Ryan: I love it. Um, so der, um, as we're winding up, how can people connect with you and learn more about all the initiatives that you're
Dieter Cartwright: up to?
Uh, best way just, uh, hit up our website, our emails right there. It's good work@dutcheastdesign.com.
Dan Ryan: Awesome. Yeah. Um, D I wanna say thank you so much for your time. This has been awesome. I can't wait [00:57:00] to learn more about ho hotel, Marcel, and actually go there. I wanna, I. I will be there soon. I would actually love to get in the car up with you because there's some really good food trucks, like right around the corner that
Dieter Cartwright: I, there there's a whole street open them.
Yeah. Yeah. And the Hamburg hamburger was invented in new Haven.
Dan Ryan: See new Haven as a new nutmegger, which is someone from Connecticut. Like, I don't know, they can claim the hamburger was invented there they can claim, they ha that ma has the best pizza. Mm-hmm I, I don't know. I think it has something to do with like a chip on our shoulders, up in Connecticut about being in the shadow of New York city.
But I don't know. I thought the hamburger was from Hamburg to be perfectly honest. so I wanna find I'm gonna go to that first hamburger and go talk to them, but yeah. Uh, yeah. Jo jogging aside, I wanna say thank you for your time. Um, no,
Dieter Cartwright: thanks for giving, uh, me the opportunity. Appreciate.
Dan Ryan: Yeah, it's been awesome.
And, and then whatever I can do and we'll talk about it offline, but whatever I can do to help, um, [00:58:00] get your learnings, um, from this whole net zero experience at hotel, Marcel out in front of brands or other people, um, I, whatever I can do to help shorten that information transfer would be great. I think it would help me feel like I'm making a difference in some kind of way.
And also more importantly than you, although I do appreciate your time and I'm grateful and we will go to new Haven soon. Um, I want to thank our listeners because we keep growing every week and people keep tuning in and listening. And so thank you to everyone. And if this has changed, how you think about hospitality or design, it's all word of mouth.
So please just pass it along. And, you know, we hope to impact someone else. So thank you everyone. And we will see you next time.
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