Defining Hospitality

Dan Ryan: today's guest is an innovative industry. Insider. He has a passion for hospitality. He spearheads Wimberly, interiors, entertainment, gaming nightlife, F and B and retail design environments. He is a vice president and director of entertainment at Wimberley interior. Ladies and gentlemen, Josh held welcome

Josh Held: Josh.

Thanks Dan. This is, uh, awesome. I've wanted to be on with you for a while, and that was a, um, a glowing introduction. So, uh, I'm excited to be here.

Dan Ryan: I'm excited to be. I'm excited to be here with you and thank you for your time. And again, like all the guests that we have on, I'm just so grateful for the time and the insight.

But I'm also a little jealous because your glasses are so freaking amazing. I feel like I gotta like upgrade mine

Josh Held: now. Yeah. And I figured once the, uh, I started going, I needed to step up the, uh, glasses game. So, um, you know, I ordered a hundred different pairs in one of them. I liked, um,

Dan Ryan: wait, did you get

Josh Held: all hundred?

No, it wasn't really a hundred, but it was like a good handful of them, but I got 'em from some like super cheap place where you get a bunch of them. It was great. I love. Oh, good. And then it's

Dan Ryan: not too precious. So if they scratch, you can just throw 'em in the recycle bin and you're all good. Yep. I lose them once a week.

Yeah. Um, so one of the things that I've always been drawn to you about is this idea of community, right. And community neighborhood. And we've also lived in the same community neighborhood. Our kids went to the same school, which had a tremendous community, and I feel like. In so many aspects of your life, for me as an outsider watching you, I just see how important community neighborhood is.

And, um, I, I just wanted to, like, in this conversation, dig into like, where does all that come from? I see you as such like this. Ultimate new Yorker. Right. And it's also surprising to me, like, I'm always surprised that you're from Dallas. I don't know what it is because I feel like when I see you, I feel like you are like New York blood through and through.

So like how did community and environment and, and neighborhood become so important to you?

Josh Held: Funny. I mean, I've, I've been in New York for about 25 years and I've, I've, uh, had two children and raised them in the city. I feel like if that doesn't make you in Yorker, I don't know what does, but, um, yeah, I grew up in Dallas.

My family moved there when I was like two years old. Um, both my parents were kind of, you. Very love and community driven. And, um, I think that's where it all started. You know, I learned from them from an early age that the community and the connection with people and the connection with, um, the place around you and the, the, the community around you and, and, and all that was super important.

Um, and it's interesting that you bring that up. Um, one, because you threw me for a curve, well, immediately, cuz you asked me a question that we had not talked about previously. But, um, the fact that, that, you know, that actually ties into, um, you know, our conversations about, about. What we do professionally in hospitality design, um, and how the spaces we create are all about making connections between people and maybe making connections between, um, the area that they are, or the type of, um, genre that they are.

Um, you know, those connections come from that community, um, attitude. And, you know, like you said, we. You. And I lived many years, a couple blocks from each other and being part of that community was, was very important. When my kids started going to school, they tried to put them in some school that was 20 minutes away and we fought hard to get them into the school that was, you know, blocks away from us because you wanna be there to be connected to that community and be able to, um, Interact and engage and, and, and dive fully into, um, the community that you live in and the people that surround you.

Um, and I think that carries a lot forward into the, the conversations about hospitality and design.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. And on the community school front, when, when we moved from the east village to Chelsea, I, Chelsea was just this foreign place to me. Right. I just didn't, I didn't really understand it. It just seemed like a thoroughfare.

People were just going, it's like a pass through. You can get anywhere, do anything. It's very convenient. , but it just seemed very impersonal and it wasn't until our, my kids started going to PS 11, that I started recognizing more people. Um, and I guess in that recognition, from that community, that cuz it was such a strong community.

Uh, and still is, um, that I just really felt to feel at home there. And, um, I don't know. It was just really interesting. And then getting to know you over the years and you know, it's also interesting to me how, um, your better half is also into building community and creating places of connection and like, Is that like what you talk about at the dinner table as well?

Josh Held: no, we try not to talk about it at all. um, , it's, you know, it's like being a doctor, you come home, you don't wanna talk about the doctor stuff. Um, uh, you know, obviously SAS and I were, um, found each other, cuz we were kind of pulling toward each, towards each other because of this, the same looking for the same types of connections and, and this conversation about community, um, I don't think it was ever spoken or talked about, but I think it was just kind of something that was inherent to our personalities that made us, um, find each other.

I love it. Um,

Dan Ryan: and okay, so now thinking about, like, to kind of tee it up with this whole idea of community and connection, um, how do you think that your. Your zeal and passion for that has influenced what your idea of hospitality is.

Josh Held: I mean, that's, that's an interesting question because not all projects want some deep community connections.

Sometimes they're just about being outrageous and being fun. Um, but you think about the places that you tend to go back to, um, as, as a, as a guest, um, you know, just as being a normal. Um, person who interacts with spaces, you know, you tend to go back to the places that make you feel comfortable that, um, give you that sense of belonging there.

Um, whether it's a restaurant or a bar or a theater, or, you know, a school or any type of space, um, You, you tend to go back to the places that make you feel like you're supposed to be there and like you're supported and, um, and comforted by that place. Um, so that, that sense of community really carries through to a lot of things and kind of, um, on a subtext level can kind of really, and reinforce the, um, the weight of an experience.

A

Dan Ryan: and correct me if I'm wrong, but when you were really starting out on your own, a lot of the work that you did and gained, I don't a lot of recognition and notoriety for was nightclubs and bars and just the whole nightlife thing. And I oftentimes, when I think of New York city nightclubs and, and the ones that you've worked on in particular, I've had fun there.

They're great, but there's also this kind of velvet rope thing. Like, how do you balance that whole idea of velvet rope and also community and make it a warm. Welcoming place or is it just all about that idea of being outrageous? Sometimes you just have to forego that and just be outrageous because Hey, that's what people are looking for.

Josh Held: Yeah. And it's funny that you say that because when you think about a sense of community, you may not think immediately about like a nightclub space, especially like, you know, a really, um, important one, like say marque in New York, but you take that club for instance, and it's, it was created, um, to really embrace a certain culture in a certain community.

And give them a place to be and to dance and to listen to music. And there are multiple levels of that experience. And then there's those that are, you know, behind the velvet ropes and, and the expensive part of the experience. But one of the main things that we were very conscious of when we were doing marque was creating a lot of space for, um, you know, what you call the GA or general admission or people just buy.

They wanna come in and, and dance their asses off and, and, you know, have a drink and be around like-minded people. So it, it all comes back to that same idea of community. There's multiple, um, levels of community within that experience, but it's still entirely about that. Hmm.

Dan Ryan: And, okay, so then as you're talking about people dancing and music, and it's, I'm also brought back to stories that you've shared.

Of being a long time burner and you guys go into burning man, right? Yeah. But what, what was, what was really surprising to me? The thing that I took away from those conversations is it's not when you go, because I think you go with some like OG burning man people, right? Yes. And it's not just about going there for the whole full on experience.

Obviously the experience of. The dancing and the fun and all this, but there's also like everyone carries their own weight. Like you were saying, you would go in and you'd prep and you'd be responsible for cooking meals and cleaning up and just keeping this community space friendly and clean and everyone fed.

Um, how, how did you find your way into that? And did, was that a pre night club or post night club, um, design experience for you and how did they kind of feed into each other?

Josh Held: Wow. There's a whole lot wrapped into that one question. And, um, yes, we might have to have a whole separate podcast for, um, if you wanna start diving really deep into that, but just kind of on the surface, I'll tell you that, um, how we got into that world is that we had a friend who made a documentary about it.

You know, one of our, our best friends, um, and kind of pulled this in and kept saying, you gotta come experience this. You gotta come experience. And it's hard to from the outside. It's hard to see why that's so valid until you. Dip your toes into it. And you're like, holy shit, I totally get this. Um, and we keep coming back to this conversation with community.

I mean, there's no, um, better kind of, um, Petri dish for what community is than this thing. That is a, you know, is literally an experiment in temporary society. That happens in the middle of the desert where there's nothing there. , So it certainly personifies what we're talking about here. Um, whether where that was in my kind of nightlife design career, I think they both kind of grew up together, my experiences there and, and my experiences designing nightclubs, but they certainly have informed each other quite a bit because, um, it.

There's obviously a little bit more freedom of the type of experience you can have when you're out there. Bringing man in people are, you know, blowing shit up and there's all kinds of music everywhere, and there's lots of different types of experiences happening. Um, and it's very much not a velvet ropey kind of situation.

There's no table service or somebody serving you. It's much more, um, a kubutz mentality if you will, where everybody's there to support each other, um, and provide for each other, uh, which is a little bit different than some of the things. Design out here in the default world. Um, but it certainly, um, informs each other.

I mean, I remember one time I, uh, we walked into this tent and it was this beautiful, like, amazing, um, Mullan Rouge, like burlesque, but, but Tom waits kind of singer just experience where, you know, it. Opens your mind to all the possibilities for an entertainment experience, whether it's at burning man or in, in, in this world that we live in out here.

Dan Ryan: I love how you use the term, a Petri dish. Like it's really an experiment, a temporary society. Are there. What, like, if you were to think about that Petri tradition, what you experienced there in the mind expansion of just. Community that pops up outta nowhere money. There's no money, right. Everything is based on trade and barter.

Um, how is that, like, what are the biggest takeaways from the Petri dish idea to your own sensibilities about the spaces and the built environments that you're working on?

Josh Held: Yeah. I think that I was surprised to find that the biggest takeaway from that, that I could kind of use in my professional life, um, was the fact.

You're sitting there observing how humans interact together. You put a bunch of humans together that don't know each other that are all on the same level. And, um, you know, there's no real hierarchy and you see how they interact with each other and how they interact with the built environment, um, and how they interact with entertainment.

Um, and it's, it's such a deep kind of psychological, um, Experiment that you get to witness live and first hand, and it's ever evolving and it changes all the time and it may be different from one year to, to the next, but you really start to see how people interact with, with SPAC and with each other. And then that certainly informs everything that we do.

Whether we're designing a hotel or designing a nightclub or designing a restaurant or a retail experience or a casino, you know, like how, how people move together, how they, when they don't know each other and how they congregate and how they, you know, do the opposite of congregate and kind of find their own personal space.

All those things play into what we do professionally every day.

Dan Ryan: Mm. And then, okay, so you've, you know, you've, I guess, Really worked so hard at experiencing all these and designing all these things and it, and just leaving this legacy of projects, um, as you, and that, that was on your own. Now, now you've come and you're at Wimberly and you're heading up gaming nightlife, F and B and all this.

And as your team grows and, and you're bringing your, all of those sensibilities into this, like, As you're building your team and growing and working on these great projects, like what are some of the traits and strengths that you look at in people that you bring onto your team that can really kind of run with that vision and help you execute that?

Josh Held: Primarily the ability to. Let go of your preconceived, um, notions about what, the way things should be. Um, the ability to just open your mind and, and see experiences and take from that and build from that and, and how you can use the information that's around you out in this world. To make you better at what you do in your life and professionally.

I mean, I think that while there is original thought out there, I think that there's a lot of what we do as designers comes from taking bits and pieces of the things that we've experienced out in the world. And in, and kind of, um, interpreting and, or twisting them, or, you know, evolving them somehow until this beautiful design comes out.

So the more input you have, the better the output is gonna be. So the more that you get out there in the world and experience things, whether it's like, you know, going to burning man, or whether it's going to. Travel the world, or whether it's going to the moon or going to the bottom of the ocean, every one of those experiences is gonna give you, um, you know, another crayon in the, the crayon box, if you will.

Um, and it just makes you a better designer from having, um, explored

Dan Ryan: so many of those life experiences. Yeah, I guess I love that. I love, I like the crayon box instead of the arrow in the quiver, cuz you know, they're kind of all mashed up together and blended together and it's uh, I don't it's it's always fun to open.

And I love the smell of opening a crayon. Oh my God.

Josh Held: And new of crayons, it's the best in that like really big one that had like 128 different colors

Dan Ryan: with the sharpener

Josh Held: in it. Yeah. And then a month later they all have their like rappers off and they're all broken and you like, you know, start crying. Yeah.

Dan Ryan: And that actually, that brings on another question that I, I would hear because I, I heard you say, as you were talking about the type of person it's. You were talking about bringing these life experiences that, that really make you the best or better at what you do. And then going on that, and also with the crayon idea, like what kind, what tool in, in your day to day life, like what tool do you find indispensable to help you with your creative process?

Josh Held: That's an interesting question, because it's none of the things that you, that we do use every day. It's not the it's, it's not the internet, it's not the Instagram or the Pinterest or all that shit. That's like, that's, you know, probably the worst version of that. Um, the best tool I find is not being in the.

Not when I'm working the best ideas, come when you're not sitting there trying to think of ideas. It's when I'm, you know, laying in bed at night or when I'm out on my way to go do something, or when I'm just freeing my mind of the other things of the kind of production side of what we do when you, um, when you give your mind space to breathe, that's the most indispensable tool.

Dan Ryan: I love that, especially because a previous guest we had, um, his name's David Allen, he wrote this book, getting things done. It's the, the art of stress free productivity. And his whole thing is if you have a system in place and you're doing your production and you have your own personal workflow and everything is in its place, then when you're, your mind is free, you have this clear whiteboard so that when you're reaching for that, can.

Tomato sauce in the, in the market or you're in the shower or you're walking to work. It allows you to have these moments of like extreme creativity. And I think, I agree with you, like the Pinterest, the Instagram, all the social media stuff. Um, all the tools that we use on our computer, they're almost distractions from that place of, of sheer creativity.

So going on that one, how, like, what do you do to like, Have more of that time where you can really be inspired?

Josh Held: Well, you're right. There is, um, there's an element of efficiency to being able to create the space for your mind to breathe. Um, Especially post COVID. I think that in the, the world that we run in and these projects that we're working on, things either got accelerated or already wants their stuff now.

And we all get into this Rud of, um, production and really just trying to get shit out the door. So you, I needed, I needed this. So I go look forward here and I need that, but you're right. It's really about kind of compartmentalizing. Being efficient and creating that space so that you can actually sit and think or go for a walk and, and really start to let things, you know, um, percolate in your brain.

Because they need the ideas need space to grow as well. And sometimes we don't give them enough of that space. We're just like, oh, we need a design thing. We plop this design thing in and call it a day. Mm-hmm

Dan Ryan: um, I want to go back to like, around that idea of this Petri dish and really a kibitz in the, in the desert.

Right? So there's this a KTS for the, or KTS for those of you who don't know is like this kind of self-sustaining

Josh Held: KTS is. Kibitz KIZ kibbutz. Kibbutz kubutz is the people.

Dan Ryan: Thank you, kibbutz. Yeah. Kibitz is, is chatter. But anyway, I going to the kubutz part of just this self sustaining outpost, right? Where everyone is engaged, everyone is helping.

Can you think of, or, or not think of, can you share with us, um, A project that specifically, that you've worked on or, or been involved with that is really just like a great example of that idea of mutual helpfulness and engagement that, that kind of, uh, exemplifies that.

Josh Held: Yeah. It's, uh, The answer is gonna be funny, cuz there's really not a lot of projects that are actually like that.

Um, you know, most of what we do in hospitality design and especially the traditional narrow scope of, of, um, hospitality design being like hotels and restaurants and stuff is a very prescriptive experience. Like you go there and sit down and eat or you go there and you're you check in and you go up to your room, you know, that's a lot of those are not as, they're not really in conducive to that kind of.

Group experience like that. Mm-hmm , um, funny enough and I totally wasn't involved in this, but I thought it was a fascinating project and it is definitely very, um, polarizing, um, for lots of reasons. But the idea that was behind we live, I think was actually pretty brilliant. Um, and for those who don't know, and most of the people that are listening there probably know exactly what it is, but it's kind of like the Mel rollers, Melrose place living version of what we worked.

um, and never really got off the ground. They did built a couple of them. Um, but the idea was that you had shared resources, shared public spaces, like living rooms and big, beautiful kitchens and all that stuff. Every couple of floors. And therefore kind of within this tower of a building, you have individual little communities that are interacting together and supporting each other.

Um, I thought on the basis of like conceptually, I thought it was, was brilliant. Um, there's lots of reasons why it. You know, move forward. Um, I think there's a documentary about

Dan Ryan: it. yeah, I think there's a couple or no, there's a made, there's a made, there's a made to for TV movie about it. I hear it's pretty good.

Actually.

Josh Held: I, I, it is pretty good. Um, so yeah, I, I, I think that's a fascinating example of exactly what you're saying. There is a, not really a whole lot of other versions of what that is out in our world. Um, other than maybe when you take some kind of master plan communities that are maybe trying to hinge toward that, um, But not as much in the kind of scale of the hospitality projects we talk about on a day, day to day

Dan Ryan: basis, you know, as you were saying that it's this idea of like a modern day commune, right?

Yeah. And I think like having moved out of New York city, I think one of the things I really miss so much about it. Was you kind of have that just in your neighborhood, right? Between the school, the coffee shop, the bodega, your dry, cleaner, uh, the market. It's kind of all there in, within the density of, of your neighborhood.

And I think for that to really be effective, whether it's a master planned community, a tower, a city, a neighborhood, you just really need density for

Josh Held: that to happen. Yeah. You need like the. Not just the number of people, but you need like the physically compressed density to make that work because like, I'll walk down the street and I see the same woman walking her same dog every day.

And we say, hi, I don't know her name. She doesn't know my name, but we are a part of the community together. Mm-hmm um, you don't get that when you're kind of spread out Overland or when there's not that kind of density the next one. And that's one of the things I love love about New York.

Dan Ryan: Well, the next time you see her, will you ask her her name?

Josh Held: I bet you do know her. I bet you probably know her. ask

Dan Ryan: her, just be like, Hey, what's your name? I see her here all the time. What's your dog's name? Usually. They like, she'll be go for the dog first. Yeah, but I, I don't know. It's like, it's all about like, getting over that icebreaker to. To communicate and kind of break through.

And that's what I would love since moving out, uh, of the city. Sometimes I'll talk to like Annabelle, my youngest I'll be like, what do you miss the most about New York? And she would say like, dad, I just really miss how you would always talk to random people on the street.

Josh Held: Well, that is, that is kind of your stick.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. But you know, why not? They're there. Talk to them, say, hi, get to know

Josh Held: everyone. Well chance doesn't realize that most of those people weren't random and you actually knew most of them.

Dan Ryan: Uh, I did know a lot of them, but also if I was just waiting for something to turn and there was someone there and we made eye contact, I'd start talking to them because I don't know.

I just feel. People just fascinate me and everyone has like a real cool story to tell. And just like in me talking to you right now, I just can learn so much from every person. It's like every person that I talk to is like a gateway to this whole universe. Right. Cause you have a whole universe between your ears and from your life experience.

And I don't know, I just always love. Talking to people and learning from

Josh Held: them. Well, it sounds like you should have a podcast.

Dan Ryan: yeah, that's a great idea. Um, so as you're, as we're kind of navigating the world in which we're we're in right now, um, what's exciting. You, Josh held the most right now about the future.

Josh Held: Yeah, the future is funny. Um, everybody always asks you to predict the future, especially in kind of the positions that we're in. Like, you know, what's the next trend in hos hos you know, hotels or restaurants or blah, blah, blah. There is no predicting the future. That's the exciting part about our job is the fact that the future is undefined and it is for us to figure out what it is, or at least try some cool shit and see if that becomes the future.

That is the only thing that creates the future or predicts the future is, is trying out, you know, fantastic ideas. And if they stick, then they become the future. Um, if not, then it's part of the process.

Dan Ryan: I think you just made like a t-shirt. I can see it right now. Try some cool shit and make the future.

Yeah, it's good for the third. Well, because it's also like inertia, right? If we all get used to like what we're doing and we're not trying to break things, how do we progress? We don't really so, but, and I think that's also so cool. And I just, I'm just envious about what you and all your teams and colleagues and competitors do is you're always working in this laboratory to create new things and pulling us all forward into new experiences.

It's it's really awesome. And I. I know, I I'm just so lucky to have so many friends that do such cool shit like that.

Josh Held: Um, yeah, I mean, it's, it's fun every minute of it. Um, and I think that we all have different have different processes, but I think that there's some core kind of, um, bits of that, that, that weave through all the way we, we do things mm-hmm um,

Dan Ryan: All right. So then if so in, in trying to do all the new cool shit to create the future, um, what, right now what's keeping you up at night.

Josh Held: What keeps me up at night is everybody trying to chase. Not designers, but maybe designers, but the people that are driving the bus on developing the physical future, everybody racing towards the thing that is most profitable or like the thing that is the most of one thing, you know, like speak, let, let's take the nightlife analogy.

You go back to like when I first moved to New York and maybe when you first moved into the city, um, There was such a variety of nightlife that you could go to, like, not just the types of programming in those nightlife spaces, but like the actual physical spaces and the experience. And there was like a ton of different versions of an experience out there.

And I think for a long time that kept getting narrowed down and narrowed down. And this happens with hotels and this happens with restaurants, but operators and people started realizing, oh, I need to make money doing this. So what are the things that are making money, let's focus and enhance those parts that are making money.

um, and really let that drive the development. So then you get a lot more places with like bottle service and that are more expensive to get into and have a very single minded vision of what the, um, programming or the space or how people interact should be. And again, I'm not talking specifically about night, like this could be hotels or anything else.

Um, but, but that kind of narrowing down of the options. Is what keeps me up at night, because I think if we're all chasing, what is the most profitable thing, or what is the most, um, you know what, what's gonna get the most press or what's gonna get the most, this, then everything starts to look the same.

And we have just a bunch of different versions of everybody doing the same thing. Um, and some are bring, gonna be good. Some are bring gonna be bad, but then there's not a lot of variety. So. Keeping things weird and keeping things different and keeping things, um, having outliers and things that are experiences.

Like you take something like, like Meow Wolf and what they did in, um, with their, you know, progressing from Meow Wolf to what they did in Vegas and that kind of stuff, those kind of outliers. I think it, we need more of those and more different stuff. And that, that may not be your cup of tea, that experience, but like the idea of having.

Lots of different options out there, um, in the hospitality world is important.

Dan Ryan: And I, and, and as you're talking about that appreciation for Meow Wolf and the experience that they've created and, you know, like there's this other theme of just Petri dishes and just ex trying new things, um, through your, in the arc of your career.

It, it, it, within that vein of just experimentation and trying, like, what do you think the most important lesson is that you've learned over your career and who, who did you learn it from?

Josh Held: Hmm. Um, the most important thing. There's a lot of important things. Um, but with, with respect to explain to a lot of different aspect, to a lot of different aspects of what we do. I think one of the things that I learned early on that was probably the most important, um, was know your shit really well. And then when you're in a room and people are questioning what you're doing, you know, that, you know, the answers and you can have the conversation that needs to be had, um, always be confident in, in, in what you're.

You know what you're saying, what you're trying to do, the, the way you're detailing things, the way you're trying to get something built, know that you know what you're doing. Um, and you get much further. Cause the minute you start to question yourself or you, you know, whether you know it or not, whether you actually know the information or not be, be confident in the fact that you are heading in the right direction.

Um, cuz when you start to question that that's when you, um, you don't make any progress. I don't know if that answers your question, but.

Dan Ryan: No, it does. What I, what I'm hearing from you is like, push the limit, know your shit and just be confident. Right. And, but you can't be confident if you don't know your shit.

Josh Held: Right. I mean, a, a great example of this is like so many times with clients and especially in what we do. Nobody's paying me to do the same thing that I've already done hundred times. I mean, sometimes people think that's what they're doing, but that's not what they're doing. They're paying they're, they're hiring us as design experts to create something new, or at least that's the way I always see our mission.

Um, and creating something new. You don't know whether it's gonna work out the way that you planned, it's like creating a sculpture or, or, you know, a robot or something that like, it's an experiment. It's a, it's a, uh, an evolving process. So, you know, clients always ask, they're like, oh my God, this big, giant thing that you're doing, that's gonna cost all this money.

Like, have you done this before? Do you know this is gonna work out? And you just gotta be like, listen, the answer is no, I don't know if it's gonna work out. I'm very confident in my ability to make it work out. And that this is a great idea. But no, I haven't done this before and nor nor has anybody else.

And that's why we're here. Hmm. And

Dan Ryan: on your career journey, was there any particular mentor or a couple of mentors that kind of helped reinforce that to you or, or shook you to say like, this is the way it is? Or what did you just kind of come pre-programmed.

Josh Held: I think that there's a certain bit of the personality that was kind of, pre-programmed just kind of from life experiences.

Um, but I can certainly say that, you know, the time I spent at, at Rockwell group with, with David, uh, Rockwell and with David Mexico, um, you know, between the two of them, I probably learned more than, and, you know, in the 10 or 11 years that I was there, I probably learned more from the two of them than I learned whether it was in school or, or.

That time at Rockwell group. Um, it was just a very intense kind of design bootcamp. You know, we were Renegade designers running around doing crazy stuff everywhere. Um, but there was a, a, a logic to the madness and, and learned so many different things there. So, I mean, I had to put a finger on it. It would be that.

Mm. Okay.

Dan Ryan: And then from like growing up in Austin, did you always know that you wanted to be an architect or designer, or I know you went to UT Austin and you studied architecture there, but like when did you know that that was the path you wanted to, to go.

Josh Held: Well, the way my mother tells it, it was from a very, very young age, like six or something.

But I think that she has a much more rose colored glasses version of it than you were eating too many crayons. Yeah.

Dan Ryan: You're like, I just need to digest

Josh Held: this. You think you knew from birth, you were gonna be an architect. I'm like, I don't think that's possible. Um, but we, uh, every summer we would travel from to main.

and a lot of those years we would drive, it was, it was glorious. We would drive in, uh, a VW camper van, a pop top camper van, and probably some of the best memories of my life. And we would drive from Dallas, um, which is a pretty far drive to go to Maine. Um, and as we, you know, the kind of last leg of it, um, is when you start to get up to New York and as a kid, when we would drive from.

Start getting up to New York and seeing these big, giant, amazing buildings like demographic building, the, um, you know, the empire state building, the Chrysler building. I mean, that was Chrysler building was like that the fucking pinnacle for me. Um, You know, those big kind of just metal Gargo heads. Yeah.

Love it. It just, I mean, I got so excited about it as, as a young kid that I, I did actually kind of know from a pretty early age that I wanted to be an architect.

Dan Ryan: Um, do you know, there, there was a dad at PS 11 who was like the head of. Facilities at the Chrysler building. I don't remember who it was. And he was like, oh yeah, if you ever want a tour in there, like I can take you all the way behind

Josh Held: everywhere.

You're telling me this now.

Dan Ryan: Uh, well, I didn't know. You loved the Chrysler building. I mean, how, oh, now I'm gonna, it's gonna drive me crazy. I'm gonna figure it out and I'm gonna reconnect you with him, but that would be cool to go up there and. Look behind all the curtains. Yeah. I

Josh Held: mean, it's just, there's so many layers to why that building is, is so phenomenal.

And it just, you know, that really got me excited as a young kid about this idea of creating these kind of fantastical. Environments or structures and, and that's where I headed. Um, and that kind of led me towards going to an art high school. And in that art high school, I got a lot of, it was a performing in visual art high school.

So there was, um, there was a lot of the theatrical productions and things like that and sets being built and stuff like that. And that's kind of where I started skewing a little more towards, um, the theatrical side of, of what this design world is. And that again also got me very excited. So those, those things combined as kind of how I got to where.

Dan Ryan: And I'm also like envisioning driving through hot Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, whichever way you go up to Maine in a four cylinder pop top. Oh my God. That engine

Josh Held: so

Dan Ryan: small. That's I know it's like, uh, it was

Josh Held: like a lawnmower on, on wheels,

Dan Ryan: but it's also like burning man version one point. Oh, right. That's

Josh Held: true.

Dan Ryan: those were, I've always had a Dr. Uh, and I will do this. Um, now that I have space that I'm not in the city, but I've always wanted to take a Volkswagen bug or the bus, cuz you can actually like take the en I can actually take the engine out and probably hold it. Yeah. I want to take it apart, clean everything and put it all back together and just, I think that would be a really fun project at some

Josh Held: point.

Oh yeah, we definitely did that once or twice on the way up. No, no, no. Like, you know, in between. You know, in the off season, we would need to do a little maintenance on the, on the tiny engine. Do, does your mom still have, which you can fix everything with a screwdriver, right?

Dan Ryan: Do you, does your mom still have it?

Josh Held: No. No. This was a while ago. Oh man. Those things, it was sad to see them go, but now every time I see one I'm like, I'm just staying there and you know, so,

Dan Ryan: oh, such great memories. Um, and then, so from high school, how did you decide on UT.

Josh Held: Well, um, It was a pretty easy decision because I was in state. It was like, you know, stupid, affordable, but it was also like the, one of the top five architectural schools in the country.

Mm-hmm um, and being an in-state resident, it, it was a very easy process process for me to go there. There was also a lot of other good options. There was like rice, and then there was a and M and there was a couple other places, but my sister went TT. I wanted to be in Austin. I loved Austin. Um, so it was a super.

Easy decision. I mean, it's not like when you apply for college now where you have to go through all these, all this, you know, all these, uh, hoops and hurdles. Uh, I literally got a piece of paper that just said, like sign here. And then I went to architecture school.

Dan Ryan: Wow. Did I ever tell you, um, the story about I got into UT architecture school?

I decided not to go there. Did I ever tell you why. You didn't tell it was the weird, it was the weirdest thing. So I remember I was 18. It was 1993. I was, my dad flew me down there. We, you know, the docent who walks backwards and is like, here's the clock tower? Here's the school of architecture. I loved it.

It was my top choice, but the weirdest thing happened. It's like this sliding door moment that I still don't know why they would've said it. And I don't know if it was 1993. , but at the end of it, she said, you know, out of full disclosure, we have to let you know that the university of Texas Austin campus has the highest incidence of HIV aids amongst all of the UT campuses.

And I'm like, well, I don't want to go here. I don't even know what that meant, but I was like, I don't want, like, what does that mean? And like, what is it? Point oh, oh, oh 2% versus point. Oh, oh, oh, oh one or even whatever it was. I don't even know why they would disclose. Unless I, I kept thinking maybe we were just all a bunch of out-of-state students that they didn't want to come to the school.

Like I have no idea. It's one of those mysteries. I will never know the answer to.

Josh Held: You've never told me that. And I'm I'm, I mean, I don't even know what to say. That's, it's

Dan Ryan: shocking. Right? It's so fucking crazy.

Josh Held: And I, I thought you were gonna say, they told you, like, you know, in full disclosure, it's a very hard program and, you know, You know, 80% of the people that you start with, won't be there when you finish, which was all true.

Um, but no, I wasn't expecting me to say that.

Dan Ryan: No, it's crazy. And then I, and then I was like, huh, that's weird. And then I remember, um, I got breakfast the next morning with my dad. I don't remember where I was at. Hey, grape fried chicken. And then the guy, and maybe we just screamed out of state because, uh, growing up from, in New Jersey, but he's like, I ordered fried chicken.

He's like, do you want gravy with that fried chicken? Or are you a Yankee? And I was like, whoa. Okay.

Josh Held: things were a little bit different back then. Uh, that was awesome. When my family moved to, to Dallas, it was like, um, it was just farmland. I mean, there was highways in farmland, it was all flat. There was nothing.

And that was like, you know, in the seventies. Hmm.

Dan Ryan: Um, Okay. So David Rockwell, David Mexico, super inspirational. Um, you learned so much from them, but now I want to put you in a place where you learn so much for you, Josh, you are back at university of Texas. You are looking at your 18 year old self. What advice do you have for yourself?

Josh Held: Um, I probably could have gotten the class a little bit more. Um but

Dan Ryan: you were experiencing things and you're experiencing life and looking for inspiration

Josh Held: for all of your future projects. I mean, I would've told myself to explore more and really, I mean, I felt like. Compared to some of the other people there, I really was thinking a little bit more outside of kind of normal, the normal guardrails.

Um, but I could have pushed that a lot further and, you know, always remember that like, you know, in, in everything, I think it was Al actually you said that this in, in some speech somewhere, um, in some speaking engagement and he said, You know, he spent every minute at the time he was after he graduated school, trying to unlearn all the shit that he learned in school.

So that kind of like, you know, just remember that to the school was really just kind of a mechanism to, to help you build some tools, but really break out of all that and, you know, reach as far as you can in every. And I did that plenty and I got plenty in trouble for doing it. And, you know, had teachers that, you know, tried to break me down.

But I think that I would go back and tell myself, like, no you're on the right path. Just keep exploring, keep trying to figure out new ways of doing shit and, and be confident in the fact that that's okay.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. And it goes right back to the heart of you were do, you were kind of finding your own path so that you could know your shit really well, like you said, and then that would give you the confidence you were learning it you're in your own way and bringing your forging your own life experience.

Right. But now Jake has to go to every

Josh Held: class. Yeah, absolutely. when I'm paying for it. Yeah.

Dan Ryan: Uh, yeah. And it's not out, it's not in-state tuition either. Huh?

Josh Held: No. He's going to a great art college, but it's like, you know, there's no, I'm like, what's your, what's your major? He's like, I wouldn't have to pick a major yet.

I'm like, okay. I'm like, so, you know, how are your grades? You know, you doing well? He's like, oh, we don't have grades. I'm like, what, what is going on at this school? Like, what am I paying for

Dan Ryan: experience?

Josh Held: Yeah, exactly. I'm sure he is getting plenty of that. Yeah.

Dan Ryan: Um, well Josh, I just. Again, I'm, I'm so grateful for your time and our friendship and that, that we could talk and learn and share your story with, with all of our growing listeners.

And if people wanted to learn more about you or Wimberly, like how, how can they reach out and find you?

Josh Held: Well, people that that know me well know that social media is not the way to get ahold of me. Um, so if you wanna get ahold of me, either email me, um, maybe LinkedIn is sometimes useful, um, but mostly email or, um, I think it's pretty much email that's the way.

Great.

Dan Ryan: Awesome. Send me a text. Uh, I won't put your cell phone number up in there. um, but again, Josh, I just wanna thank you so much. This has been just awesome. And I'm glad to like, does, I

Josh Held: mean, this was over, I was having so much fun.

Dan Ryan: Well, I feel like I, I just really wanted to know your journey and I just learned so much about your journey and I mean, we can keep going if you.

Josh Held: No, this was great. I really appreciate you. Um, you know, asking the questions and not, not just of me, but of, of, you know, everybody around me that I, that I respect and love in this industry. And, um, it's great to hear what you pull out of them. Um, so keep it up and thank you.

Dan Ryan: Thank you. And also much like I'm thanking Josh.

I also want to thank our listeners, cuz again, I know I say this every week, but I'm always humbled and amazed that we keep growing every week. So if this changed your idea or any of your ideas about how to give hospitality, receive hospitality, put things in a Petri dish and make something cool. Please pass it along and share it with a friend.

And I think I gotta finish with try some cool shit and make the future happen.