Defining Hospitality

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[00:00:24] Dan Ryan: Hey, everybody. Today's guest. Okay. One of the most innovative people in the architectural field he's president and one of the owners at Manzini Duffy, ladies and gentlemen, Mr.
[00:00:35] Christian Jordan. Well, thank you Dan, for having me well, thanks. Thank you. Uh, you know, it's been, this podcast, medium has been, uh, I I've been a huge fan for a long time. I've always thought about doing it. And one of the decision points in doing this is you and your anti architect podcast, um, knowing you and seeing you do it and looking at the product, I was like, oh wow, this is really great.
[00:00:59] And [00:01:00] like, they're just conversations that I enjoy listening to. So I thank you for being here.
[00:01:05] Christian Giordano: Wow. That's a, that's a huge compliment. Thank you. Um, yeah, starting the podcast was something. I had thought about for a while, but then kind of had to be forced into it because I didn't really think I had a point of view.
[00:01:21] Um, but then in talking to, you know, my partners here and some others around, um, uh, specifically, uh, the two ladies that, uh, from brand groupies that run our social media, uh, Carrie and Lauren, they, they, they said to me, no, no, no. We can make it easy for you. We have a guy that'll help you kind of start it and set it all up and all that stuff.
[00:01:44] And I said, okay. And they, you know, when he came up with this idea of, you know, the anti architect, but not necessarily in a, in a bad way, More about being a critical voice in the, in the world of architecture and looking at it, you know, what do we do? Well, what do we [00:02:00] not do? Well? What do clients, how do we treat certain clients versus others?
[00:02:03] How, um, you know, how do we work with our engineers or our sales partners, or, you know, people like you that supply, you know, furniture and goods and all different parts of our industry and, and how can we better improve the way we do everything. And it really started to kind of make sense and became a positive thing.
[00:02:24] I mean, using the, you know, the, the title, the anti architect obviously is to be catchy. Um, and most people seem to get it. Although some people say, why are you so anti architects, but I'm not I'm I, you know, I am one and I love architects and architecture. Don't you get it? It's a, well, so speaking
[00:02:42] Dan Ryan: specifically to that as being the anti architect, Walk us through what you mean by that?
[00:02:48] Like what do you mean the anti
[00:02:50] Christian Giordano: architect? So, you know, I always fancy myself as the, um, the type of person that comes at the architecture [00:03:00] profession a little bit differently than, um, than most architects. Right? Many sort of the, the way that your, uh, schooling and your education is in architecture school.
[00:03:10] You're, uh, you're. Almost to become a superstar architect that if you don't become a starchitect or a black Cape architect, whatever you want to call them, um, then while you, you probably are not worthy of the business, you failed in the business. Um, you know, you're, you're never going to reach your potential and everyone should strive to be that.
[00:03:33] And while I think there was part of me that always thought about being that, um, You know, the reality is you get a job in a corporate. Most people get a job in a corporate architecture firm, especially if you're around a big city. Like I am in New York city. Um, if you're in a more suburban market, chances are you're working for a small.
[00:03:54] It may be even sole partition, a practitioner. Maybe you got to go out on your own and [00:04:00] you're you are a sole practitioner. Um, but for the most part, most people don't become black ape superstar architects. Um, and it's kind of a shame that you're. You know, the education system kind of sets you up to be that, and maybe in a lot of people's mind failure.
[00:04:18] Um, so I was always comfortable with the idea of working on large corporate projects. Um, and in my case it was, you know, whether that was office space or broadcast space or hotels, um, just kind of big buildings, always interiors involved in some way. I was always okay with that. Um, And I think that the, the profession, they, you know, as you kind of mature in these, um, in these, uh, Corporate firms, you know, the art and architecture begins to kind of go away and you get, you get a few disgruntled architects along the way, [00:05:00] and you get some people that try to force their design ideas on clients.
[00:05:04] And I've always been the type from the very beginning that liked to listen to them. And like to really understand what they were all about, um, really get in their heads and then also understand their business. Every what I find so fascinating about this business is that you get involved with some of the top people in the industry, in, in, in the world, really in any company.
[00:05:26] Right? I mean, I, I sat at meetings with Bob Iger at Disney because we were doing a building for Disney, for a broadcast building for their biggest, uh, television station. And he had a vested interest in this project, you know, and he wanted to know why we were spending money here. What was happening here, you know, it was going to be a showpiece for them.
[00:05:47] So you get this access to these decision-makers that, you know, most normal people don't ever get and they become just another person at the table and another interested party. And I always found that really fascinating that you got [00:06:00] this kind of access, but you've got to really understand their business.
[00:06:03] You, if you're not a black Cape, You can't go in and say, um, here are my, all of my ideas for you, and now you're going to take them and you're going to love them because you know, I'm the artist and you're going to listen to me. Um, that's not the case for most, and you've got to really pay attention and listen and understand what they want.
[00:06:26] And from them. It can be very rewarding. You can actually find some, some amazing, beautiful designs. I mean, take, take Gensler, you know, our biggest competitor, the largest firm in the world. Um, they've they find success in really listening to their clients. And while they are a very corporate architecture firm, they do arguably some of the most innovative work in the world.
[00:06:51] I mean, some of their base building and towers that they do are absolutely extraordinary and that's coming from a. From, and this idea [00:07:00] that, you know, the, maybe the greater whole of the firm, um, you know, that that sort of power in numbers becomes more important or more powerful than the individual soul, you know, superstar.
[00:07:12] So the idea of the anti architect. Is really well, I'm not looking at it from, you know, the architect is the all-knowing and that every time the architect walks in the room, you've got about to them and you've got to, you know, have all this reverence for them. You know, they're just another person in there they've got to listen.
[00:07:31] And for me, I've always done it a little bit differently, the way that my career has evolved. Um, and so I like to think of myself as a little bit of a different kind of architect along the way.
[00:07:43] Dan Ryan: So. I really love. And what resonated the most with me is this idea of listening. Right? Because when I, when I think of that, starchitect, I've never actually heard the term black Cape architect before, but I like that it's like the superhero or the starchitect, or like someone's coming to Gotham, like watch out, [00:08:00] um, part of what makes them so successful is that.
[00:08:03] Intense vision. And like, this is where I'm going and all of you fall by the wayside. Cause I'm in, I'm going to get here. Right. And it's made for some amazing monuments, right? Oh, absolutely. When I think about listening and hearing, oftentimes I feel like there's a disconnect between that starchitect and, and listening.
[00:08:25] And it's actually a great segue. Um, Because in doing all of these podcasts about defining hospitality, I've been getting so many different, um, responses that have just been really giving me a much deeper 360 degree view. But like listening has a lot to do with that as far as what I'm hearing, because it's like, it's opening up.
[00:08:45] So for you, how do you define hospitality?
[00:08:50] Christian Giordano: So that's a, it's a good question. Um, Purely thinking about hospitality, not thinking about kind of what [00:09:00] I do or what we do here as a firm in terms of designing, you know, hotels or restaurants and things like that. When I think of hospitality, I think of the four seasons, uh, the, the hotel, the four seasons, and then.
[00:09:17] Service model. And, um, as a door sharp is the, you know, the creator of the forest seasons, right. And his idea that the service, it was going to be so extraordinary in these. Uh, in these hotels, no matter where you went in the world, um, everything was going to be fabulous about them. From your experience, from the moment you arrive to the moment you left and everything in between from, um, you know, from the food to the service, to the, to the, to the actual physical place.
[00:09:51] And when I think about my experience, you know, not that I stay at a lot of four seasons, but when I have, um, they, you know, they [00:10:00] really do, you know, you pull up the for, you know, the, the person upfront asks you, you know, if you're checking in and what your name is. And from that moment on, they know your name everywhere you go.
[00:10:09] And obviously. They're very well-trained and they're very well thought out about how they do that. And if, and if you need a, if you need a towel or you need something, it's never a question as to why, or, you know, uh, you know, I just brought you one five minutes ago. I mean, they will continuously service and service and service.
[00:10:27] And I think that model, what I found. Fascinating. Uh, when I read the Steve jobs book was that he used the four seasons as his model for apple, in terms of the stores, you know, that idea that you didn't have to wait online, that someone was there to greet you all the time, that you didn't have to go and check out in a long line, that there was always someone there to.
[00:10:50] B, you know, it's basically a hospitality experience and a tech store. And so when I think of hospitality, that's what I think of. I think of really amazing [00:11:00] service.
[00:11:01] Dan Ryan: I love the idea of really amazing service. And also it made me think that on the listening side, some of the things that you said, it wasn't actually listening and connecting, but there's also a level of anticipation.
[00:11:14] Right. And so I'm curious from you that idea of, of listening and hearing what your customer wants and knowing your name and going through to like anticipation. How, how do you reconcile those two things?
[00:11:29] Christian Giordano: Yeah. So part of what we do as designers, right, is, um, we do listen. And then we do, I don't care if you are that star architect or you are, you know, a corporate architect at some point, you have to also put your point of view and your design ideas on paper and, you know, let them be out there for, um, for someone to react to.
[00:11:54] So when I think of the anticipation side, I think of, you know, [00:12:00] We give our clients a series of very controlled options, right. We never want to say to a client, you know, sit in front of them and say, so what are you looking. You know, we want to come in and we want to ask a client. So what's important to you.
[00:12:15] What are the emotions you're trying to create? When someone, if we're talking about a hotel, when someone walks into your hotel, what's the experience level? What are you, what is the, what do you feel like when you're in a room, in a space? Um, when you're in a restaurant, um, what is the mood like? What's the lighting like?
[00:12:33] And, and usually, especially in the hospitality, right? The clients are able to tell you that right away, sometimes they can articulate it in terms of, um, well, I want it to be, you know, X amount of brightness or I like this, but they'll say, well, I'm thinking, you know, I was at this restaurant and this is the kind of feel I have, or I like the softness of these textures and these materials.
[00:12:58] And so. [00:13:00] With some of those cues, we start to put together this idea of, you know, what are the overall drivers for, for the design. And then we start to curate that design and curate options that we feel are in that spirit. So by the time, the next time we meet with someone, um, You know, we're able to say to them, these are the things that we found important in what you said, and we were listening, and this is how we think of it.
[00:13:27] When we come back to you at, um, with options and we give them a series of options. Again, it's never a blank page. We never want to say to someone, you know, you do it because then what do you need us for? Right. It's here's what we're thinking. And we always give the sort of. We've adapted it overall now because we use technology more in how we're designing, but we always give sort of the small, medium and large version.
[00:13:52] And we started this a few years back where we actually put, because budget is always a concern. Um, and it's something that [00:14:00] architects don't actually do very well is talk about money upfront for themselves, for their fee and for the client also, in terms of what they're getting, uh, Again, if we had an endless budget that the AR we would have a blast, you know, this would be a totally different, totally different conversation, but budget is always in always important.
[00:14:20] I don't care who the client is. So what we started to do is actually put very simple, um, dollar signs. On drawings. So if we were making big moves, we would associate that with very large dollar signs. If we were making smaller moves, more controlled ideas or more controlled interventions, we start putting smaller dollar signs and somewhere in between and from there, and from the reactions, you can start to see, you start to have early conversations about options and well, you know, this one is that we really like this, but I see that you think it's expensive.
[00:14:57] But what is it in that, that you just showed us that [00:15:00] can, uh, that we can use for, from an idea, point of view, and then put it in a more controlled version where we could save a little bit money. What's that big idea that we like in there? How can we then adapt it and save some money along the way? So it's those kind of little tricks that we've learned, um, that really helped kind of move decision-making forward because in the end, decision-making is the hardest part for the client.
[00:15:25] Dan Ryan: So just so I'm clear when you're in an early schematic or design development stage, you're going through and on your renderings or, or concepts, you're actually putting the dollar signs on those drawings so that they're seeing it. And then you're looking at them and anticipate.
[00:15:41] Christian Giordano: Yeah. So if we're doing a building, if, if it's a new hotel and we're, you know, we're going to show it as all glass, um, we're going to put a certain size dollar sign.
[00:15:49] If we're going to show it as punched windows, it's going to have different sized dollar signs on it. Um, and again, it's all about that decision-making process too, to understand what is [00:16:00] it that we're driving toward here? You know, if, if a budget is always a thing, so how are we going to get the best design for there for them?
[00:16:08] We want it to be super designed. We want it to be the four seasons. Um, but if the budget isn't the Forrest seasons, how can we still find what's important to that client and make it a reality?
[00:16:19] Dan Ryan: Yeah. There's, I've heard two schools of thought here. One is like, okay, give us a budget and we're going to work within it.
[00:16:23] And then the other one is we don't want to work within a budget. We want to show the world, show the dream, and then we can back into it. Um, and I love what you're saying, where. Oftentimes owners don't are uncomfortable talking about the money. They're building a big building. I'm really intrigued by how you bring the dollars right.
[00:16:44] To the front at the early stage, like visually represented. Where did you, how did you learn that?
[00:16:51] Christian Giordano: Come from? Well, we were doing a very large corporate park, um, in Charlotte, North Carolina. And it was, [00:17:00] it's a, it was a massive project. And in order to. Put budget numbers to it. We had an outside consultant doing budget numbers and the budgets were, so the numbers were so big.
[00:17:13] Um, you know, the smallest thing was that we were doing was probably a million dollars. Right. And there were things all the way up to 30, 40, $50 million because it was such a huge scale of a project that, um, it was actually one of my designers here that. He was trying to articulate to the client, you know, well, these are the things you could do for around this range.
[00:17:35] And these are the things that you can do for these are the other things here that we're also proposing. And so that's where we came up with. Why don't we just put these large and small dollar signs on everything so that when they looked at it and overall master plan, they could see like, oh, I see. So if we take down that whole building and put up that new building, there that's a big dollar sign.
[00:17:57] But if we do all these little other interventions, [00:18:00] it's about this, this amount of money. Right? And so we were able to sort of quickly have that conversation. And then they were able to go back to their board and say, Hey, you know, it looks like these are the ranges that we're getting for these types of things.
[00:18:13] What realistically are we telling the architects to do? Cause clearly we're not going to do all of this, but we're, but we need to do something. So where are we actually gonna.
[00:18:22] Dan Ryan: And when you're presenting these drawings with the dollar signs, or is it someone's looking at it, there is someone else watching the client or are you like, how does that happen?
[00:18:30] And I assume you're keying in, on their body language and kind of going
[00:18:36] Christian Giordano: a lot of times, that's my job so that, you know, the designers presenting and the project manager is talking and I'm trying to read the room. And really kind of understand what, how the reactions are, are going along the way. Um, and so you can clearly see, you know, people think, oh my God, I love that I have to have it.
[00:18:55] I don't care how much it costs. You know, tell me,
[00:18:58] Dan Ryan: tell us about a time when [00:19:00] you had the big grand, like the big budget thing. You're like, oh, this is, this is the vision. This is where I really think it is based on previous conversations with the owner. You anticipated that, but then you saw it, you saw the reaction and then.
[00:19:14] Changed course, like, tell me about
[00:19:15] Christian Giordano: that. Yeah. So I, I would say actually a good example is a hotel that we were doing, um, in New York city on, on 31st street. Uh, it was the Arlo hotel. Um, they, you know, they had tremendous. Ideas. I tremendous tremendous ideas. And when we conceptualize the building, we ultimately got it approved.
[00:19:39] It was a brand new building out of the ground, um, you know, by about 300 or so keys and the project. You know, it, it had over budget written all over it from the very beginning. Um, and, but they wanted it to be more of a boutique brand and so same kind of thing we would present. Um, [00:20:00] and one of the things that we presented was a glass at the top, the very top of a rooftop bar, and it had a glass floor that kind of overlooked, um, fifth avenue.
[00:20:12] And very cool,
[00:20:14] Dan Ryan: but I don't remember the floor.
[00:20:17] Christian Giordano: So it's funny, a lot of, a lot of buildings these days have glass floors, overlooking stuff, but I want to say, I think we were one of the first, um, and you know, that was one of the things where we started talking about budget right away. Like, Hey, this is, this is probably outside the budget, but we really thought this was a cool idea.
[00:20:32] And neat. And I remember watching the client going, you know, Like we have to have this. I don't care what it is like, we're going to make sure we have it. We're going to go back and ask for more money or we're going to take something else out, but this is a must. And I remember us almost like. Making excuses as we would go, sometimes designers, you know, we know we, we know we've done a good job designing, but then you start to get a little nervous about how the client might react.
[00:20:59] So you [00:21:00] backtrack, even in what you're saying. And I remember saying to our designer at the time, um, no, no, no. Don't back out. We, he wants this, we gotta make this glass bridge, this glass ceiling or glass roof fear happened for him. And he said, yeah. Okay, well then, then that's what we'll do, you know? And, and we were able to figure it out and that thing got built and it's still there today.
[00:21:21] That's one of their highlights of that project.
[00:21:24] Dan Ryan: Oh, maybe I've just been there. When it's also crowded up there and I just didn't see it, but mostly I think I've been in every room there because I did all the furniture and all the rooms, but I've
[00:21:33] Christian Giordano: definitely been, those are tiny rooms. Yeah. Because
[00:21:37] Dan Ryan: are really, really beat up.
[00:21:39] Christian Giordano: Yeah. That the bed is like right up against the window. Totally.
[00:21:43] Dan Ryan: Well, that's like a new thing. This whole micro hotel it's been coming on. Just packing more stuff in there. And then when people come into New York city with all their bags, It's just a lot to fit in there. Um, so the hearing about all of this and how you're doing it right.[00:22:00]
[00:22:00] With your clients, like how do you, when are you most comfortable either traveling at work and life? Like what makes you really relax in the Mo and very comfortable?
[00:22:11] Christian Giordano: That is a really good question. Um, you know, before COVID, I probably could have answered that a lot differently, uh, because I would say now post COVID, I don't think I'm comfortable at all.
[00:22:23] I'm still waiting for the next, you know, thing to happen, but, uh, You know, where, where I will say that, you know, we're a very flexible organization here. We, you know, we have about 75, 80 or so people that work at the firm, we've always been, it's a young firm. I mean, the firm's been around a hundred years.
[00:22:44] Um, but my ownership's really, you know, in the last eight to 10 years, and we've really, the staff has really changed and it's a young kind of fun organization. Um, When, you know, we, we're always flexible. [00:23:00] You know, we allowed people to work from home. If they had to, you know, we really didn't have a, you know, let's call it a policy for that, but we let people do is they must.
[00:23:09] And my philosophy was always, you know, if you got your work done, it didn't matter what time you did it at. If you showed up here at nine or you showed up here at noon, doesn't matter to me. As long as it works for you and your team and you get everything done. So when COVID hit, uh, You know, and we, we were not allowed to basically go back into our office.
[00:23:30] I mean, in New York city. And you know, this is a place where I come day after day and pretty much only knew getting up, going on the train and going into the office. Um, and when we weren't allowed to go in back into the city for, for two months, it was, it was very nerve wracking. I mean, I didn't understand how, from a cultural point of view, we were going to keep the place going and.
[00:23:55] What we did was, you know, we, we implemented two times a week, [00:24:00] all in zoom meetings and, you know, we were, we did, uh, you know, these all in zoom meetings, everyone turned on their cameras from home, and I pretty much let it two times a week, um, for an hour. And. There was most of the time, I would say 99% of the time, there was absolutely no agenda.
[00:24:19] We just kind of all were in our little, you know, cubes and we, and we just chatted and we asked questions and we just, you know, maybe even made fun of each other and made fun of somebody's backgrounds or kids would come in. And, uh, what I realized is. Where I am most comfortable is actually with a group of people.
[00:24:41] Um, you know, I am not, uh, on my own kind of guy. So to answer that question, I'm actually most comfortable in the office, as bizarre as that may sound, because I like the interactivity with everybody. I like, you know, when, when people are around, I like the impromptu meetings, [00:25:00] you know, I sit okay. A desk over from, um, my director of marketing and strategy and he, and I, you know, talk nonstop.
[00:25:10] Um, you know, there's always something there's always a proposal. There's always an idea. There's always, um, you know, a reason for us to interact and I missed all of that during COVID. So it's really good to be back and, you know, and we've been very. We've been very sort of nonchalant about how to come back to the office.
[00:25:32] We said, you know, please start coming back and I will tell you, the office is probably about 75% full now on a regular basis. Um, so it's, I think others feel that way too. That interaction is important.
[00:25:44] Dan Ryan: So something else you said resonated with me was where there was almost like this. I got this fear of from you that you could lose the culture.
[00:25:52] And in any business, like building culture is the hardest, one of the hardest things to do. Obviously you have to be profitable and do all that, but [00:26:00] building a culture. So if you think about as the culture that you have, or just even in your daily life, how do you make others feel comfortable? I know you're comfortable around people, but how do you make other people feel.
[00:26:13] Christian Giordano: So I think for, from an, from an office point of view or from a, from a business point of view and with colleagues, the way that I think, um, making them feel comfortable is giving them, giving their ideas real. And letting people have the freedom to do what they think is important. So whether that is a design idea, sort of, no matter what level you're at.
[00:26:40] So I'll tell you that the design directors here are very interactive with their teams. So the junior designer, the person right out of school, the intern, you know, we welcome the ideas. We welcome all of that, uh, commentary or, or, um, you know, solutions. And so kind of hearing people and making [00:27:00] sure that their voice is heard, uh, is really, really important.
[00:27:04] And then for me, my success has always been, you know, kind of putting people in seats that they're not quite ready to. Um, you know, I was never a believer that in, you know, if we, if we go back to the, sort of the anti architect, right. That the, uh, the old guy is the, is the guy that has all the answers. And I never subscribed to that.
[00:27:29] So in our firm, if you have an idea, we're here to listen and now we've proven that, so. You know, there was someone here that wanted to start a, um, uh, what we call the final layer of design M DLX the Manzini Duffy Lux brand. So, uh, it was an idea that she had, you know, sourcing things like in hotel rooms, as a matter of fact, the pads and pens, and you know, where the shoe horn is and the, the pillows, the artwork, the [00:28:00] plant programs, you know, those were all things that, you know, they.
[00:28:05] Felt comfortable enough to designers here felt comfortable enough coming to me and saying, you know, we, we have this idea. Um, we want to start a separate company within Manzini Duffy, and this is what it's all about. Here's our business plan. Um, what do you think we can do? And so we, we started it and they've been very successful and they have their own line of business.
[00:28:28] They have their own separate bank accounts, their own separate PS. And they manage and do this entire process themselves. And they've done, they've done a bunch of hotel fit-outs and even office place fit outs in terms of artwork and, um, all of the sort of accessories that go into some of the spaces that we design, but it was all of them, you know, and they felt comfortable enough to come and essentially ask for permission, but then come with a plan.
[00:28:56] And then we supported them with obviously financially, we supported them and [00:29:00] getting it started. Same with the technology side. People have come with ideas on technology and we've ended up hiring, um, programmers. And, uh, we have three programmers that work in our research and development. And they're developing software for us.
[00:29:18] And it was the same thing. They felt comfortable enough to, you know, to come to me, to come to my partners and say, these are our ideas. You know, you, you talk about wanting to support us. This is how we plan to do it. And we did. And so I think the more we've shown that it's not talk like, Hey, I'm approachable.
[00:29:38] Come talk to me. It's Hey, I'm approachable. I want to hear your ideas and all these other people that did that. Well now they have lines of business to, to, to show as a result.
[00:29:49] Dan Ryan: And it's as if you're, again, going back to that, listening, you're listening to their ideas. You're not pigeonholing them. You're believing in them.
[00:29:57] And maybe you're not putting it. You're not putting them in [00:30:00] that seat that they should be in. It's like, Hey, let's, let's lean into it a bit. And I believe in you. And that's a, that's a pretty astounding way to make people feel comfortable believing in them. I haven't heard that one yet. Yeah. Thank you. Hmm.
[00:30:14] Um, oftentimes, so we're talking about what makes people feel comfortable and how you make people feel comfortable, but sometimes like the most uncomfortable things or the worst experience of hospitality being delivered. Can inform us in even greater ways. And I know the first time that I met you, I, we shared a business coach, uh, Mark Green.
[00:30:35] He was awesome. He was amazing, but I will say, um, in those first couple of meetings with him, when we, when I was meeting with the leadership team and talking about what we need to do, or he was asking, okay, what are the prices. They would start speaking and I would finish their sentences. And I remember he, he just, he tore me a new one.
[00:30:54] He's like, Dan, you have great people around you. You got to shut the fuck up and listen to them. And I was like, Ooh. [00:31:00] And then every monthly meeting that we had with him, I just, I did not look forward to, but I grew so much out of it. I just wanted to share that one, but also if you think about the worst, how did the worst experience of hospitality inform your path in life or your journey in life?
[00:31:18] Christian Giordano: Yeah, so that's interesting. Um, I would say that the. On the hospitality side. It, if I'm taking my own experience, it always comes down to dining. Right. I think that, you know, it a stay in a room or a stay in a place. A lot of times that stuff gets resolved and, you know, that's that kind of thing. It's usually a dining experience that, um, that to me, never.
[00:31:46] You know, we'll always, we'll always stand out as not a great experience in the hospitality world. And again, it comes down to service, you know? Yeah. You can have bad food and yet, you know, that kind of thing. And, and a lot of that is subjective [00:32:00] in the end. Um, but it comes down to the service, you know, how are those people treating the patrons?
[00:32:05] How are, how are they interacting? How responsive are they? And I, I think of, I think of, you know, A restaurant experience in the same way. I think of our clients in a sense, right? That, that We have to respond to them a certain way. We always have to be positive. Right. You never want to tell a client? "No, you're wrong. No, that's ridiculous." I mean, as many times as you, you may want to, that's not really our place. I always found our place to be: we have to come back with a solution. If they're not happy or they don't think this is correct. Well then it's, it's not on them. It's on us to find the right solution. And most of the time I will say we do.
[00:32:46] I think I take that approach on a lot of things is, "well, maybe it's me." And I think if you take that approach, "Well, it's not them. So what am I doing wrong? How can I make this [00:33:00] situation better?" Because think about it, if you're in a situation and someone is beating up on you the entire time, you know, you kind of lose interest in it and it's no fun anymore.
[00:33:09] So that level of trying to figure out what is it that I can do to improve the situation? Always helps in that. And I think our clients appreciate that. You know, we don't say, "you're wrong or no, that's impossible. No that won't fit over there. Don't you understand scale?" You know? We will say, "No, let us take a look at it, and give you some options." And usually that, that works.
[00:33:35] But I will say about Mark Green. I mean, he would make me feel uncomfortable a lot. I mean, holy cow. Yeah. You know, he's the kind of guy that you and I, I, again, love, love him too. Um, he, I felt like if I didn't have the right answers, I was going to just get, you know, absolutely bludgeoned by him.
[00:33:59] But [00:34:00] what I did realize is that if I started being a little bit more honest, like I just don't know. I don't have the answer to that. You know, he, he actually cracked and would, and would say, you know, that's the right answer. You don't know, you know, that kind of thing.
[00:34:16] Dan Ryan: A hundred percent and that's actually as uncomfortable as those interactions were in the beginning, I had tremendous growth.
[00:34:22] Like we all grow from being uncomfortable. And I guess that was the, that's like the Genesis of that question, like uncomfortable situations, help us all grow and learn and not repeat the mistakes of the past. Um, so as we're going at and businesses starting to pick up travel is starting to pick up, um, Occupancies are taking up.
[00:34:45] Uh, residential is happening. Things are happening. Um, as we move through this pandemic, what's keeping you up at night now. Cause I think we all see the light at the end of the tunnel. Um, and we [00:35:00] see the beginning of a new cycle, but what's keeping you up.
[00:35:04] Christian Giordano: So I, I think what keeps me up is. In a sense, right?
[00:35:09] It it's part of it's exciting. And part of it is, will keep me up at night. Right. And maybe they're, maybe they're both the same thing. I guess, keeping up at night doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. Um, but for a company like ours, that is in New York city, right. I mean, that is the bulk of our work.
[00:35:28] And while we do do work nationally and we are certainly expanding Nash, Um, th the, the mothership is still in New York and it's really, we're a, we're a New York institution. Everybody in our field knows Manzini Duffy and what we do. Um, and in the very beginning, yeah. I was pretty convinced that nobody was ever going back to an office.
[00:35:52] And 50% of our work is corporate office space. And, you know, we're very, very good at it. Uh, as good as we [00:36:00] are in hotels and hospitality and restaurants, and some of the other kinds of work that we do, we're really good at corporate office work. Um, and I think we, you know, with that, That is our identity.
[00:36:11] Right? And it's where a lot of our connections are. And many of our clients are, and in the beginning of the pandemic, it seemed like nobody was ever going to go back to an office. Um, and now what's great. And I think what what's very exciting for me in terms of office space is. And then this is what keeps me up at night is the excitement of the fact that every client now doesn't have to follow the trend that they thought they had to.
[00:36:39] So before it was everyone wanted to every tech and media company wanted to have, you know, an open office plan, huddle rooms, phone booths, you know, I mean, we could design this stuff with our eyes closed. Right. You know, a green wall here, the digital thing there, the whole thing. And we've done hundreds of them and they're beautiful.[00:37:00]
[00:37:00] Um, you know, a law firm wants their perimeter offices, their corner offices, their interior offices, and so on and so forth. Right. But now what's kind of nice is that there are no more trends to follow in that sense. What I keep telling our, our corporate clients is you've got to really think about what works for you.
[00:37:23] You know, what is your return for work for more, for to work plan? Um, are you coming in five days a week? Are you coming in three days a week? You know, if hoteling, which basically means, you know, you're sharing desks. Um, are you comfortable with doing that? Are your employees comfortable in doing that? Um, have you really thought about how you want to work?
[00:37:46] Is your office and office for heads down work or is it more collaborative? Is it more, you know, do you really need phone booths now to make private phone calls? Because, um, you know, people can do that from home. Uh, so, [00:38:00] so it really becomes. About if the users of their office space can really start to think about how they truly want to function.
[00:38:08] What's true to them and their culture. We can then really start getting some different types of spaces emerging from this. They're not going to all be cooker cookie cutter because not one size does not fit all anymore at all. Um, it really becomes very individualized, which is exciting and interesting, and just a different way of approaching office.
[00:38:29] It's actually a. Probably a totally different way than it's ever been done before. When you really think about it. I
[00:38:35] Dan Ryan: think it's a tremendous, um, seismic shift in culture and staffing. And almost like if you think about the idea of hotel on your five days, three days as like a Tetris game of like, how do you program that to really work?
[00:38:49] I think some okay. Schematically. It's going to be interesting, but also culturally the workplace, I think will. Forever changed in a really good way, especially I believe in [00:39:00] creative fields. So whether it's architects, designers, advertising, um, those hours and time, it's like creativity doesn't happen nine to five.
[00:39:09] It happens at other times. How are you seeing that happen? How are you seeing that
[00:39:13] Christian Giordano: evolve? It's true. Well, I mean our staff in general, right? They, they love some of our most creative people will tell you, you know, They love working from home. They never realized how much they, they enjoyed it because the way that they can schedule their week is meetings and clients.
[00:39:32] But then that downtime that quiet time that they can do it on their own because as a designer, right. You're. You've got to really think things through and, and what I would always say to, you know, as growing up as a designer and my wife, um, in the field as well. Um, she moved to the sales side, um, pretty early on in our, in our careers, but, uh, I'd always say to her, you know, I have work to do this [00:40:00] weekend.
[00:40:00] I probably still say that, um, I've worked to do this weekend. And she said, well, you know, we're not doing this and this until then. Um, so you probably have about an hour or so to do it. And I said, but I, I don't, I don't need an hour. I need. Eight hours, 10 hours, you know, 16 hours uninterrupted, where I need to sit and focus and draw and sketch and research or read, you know, there's all these other, every designer designs in, in their own way.
[00:40:30] And I think the flexibility in the office now, it gives them that ability, or those are going to be my days where I can actually think about design rather than yeah. Production and just doing and doing and doing design in the end is a lot of production, but you've got to have that upfront thought time and that, that quiet time to actually think it through.
[00:40:51] Dan Ryan: totally see that and get that. And I can't wait to see the changes that are coming. Um, so now that we've, we've learned from you now, [00:41:00] shifting gears to kind of learning more about you. You're a young guy, you're an entrepreneur. Um, somehow you own a hundred year old detector for like, how did that happen?
[00:41:13] Like what, what's your entrepreneur entrepreneurial journey on that?
[00:41:17] Christian Giordano: Um, so I've told this story a few times. Um, I mean, basically it comes down to just asking the right questions, but, um, so I, uh, you know, I went to architecture school, my, uh, university of Miami in Florida, and then I went to UCLA and. In Los Angeles.
[00:41:35] Um, I specifically went to UCLA to have Frank Gary as a professor and a Morphosis Tom mean as a professor. So those were all, you know, back to the whole star architect thing. And, uh, I, you know, I love those two guys and, uh, really admire them and, you know, I, I. I never really wanted to work in Los Angeles.
[00:41:58] I, I, I [00:42:00] liked living there, but I'm not a west coast kind of person. For some reason, it just never felt right. So I wanted to move back to the east coast and I got a job at swanky, Hayden, Connell, architects, which was a big architecture firm at the time. They're no longer, uh, they're no longer around all the partners kind of went their separate ways and many retired.
[00:42:18] Um, but it's where I met my wife. And, um, you know, she was an interior designer there and I was working on, on, on buildings. And I worked there for about five years and enjoyed it. And one of the design directors went over to a big company called HLW international, um, big, big firm, uh, all over the world.
[00:42:40] And that's really where I spent the bulk of my career, uh, and really learned kind of how to do my job and what was great about them was I had exposure very early on. Um, to a lot of different aspects of, of the, from, from, you know, quickly moving into the leadership roles. They're running a [00:43:00] studio too, you know, does, you know, running the architectural design side.
[00:43:04] I had a lot of exposure in China, so I would go back and forth to Shanghai because we had an office there or they still have an office there and we would do a lot of work there. Um, and so I. I got to see a lot of variety of project types from interiors to, you know, corporate, to hotel, to you, name it. I mean, they, they do it all and I enjoyed my time there very much.
[00:43:30] I still have some very close friends there. I was working on a project, um, for HBO and I was friendly with, um, one of the project managers. And he said to me, Hey, you know, there's another guy who was this guy, big architecture firm in New York that, you know, I think you, um, you'd get along with him. They're looking for a young guy to come over and kind of change the culture of the firm.
[00:43:53] And, you know, you might be the right guys. Uh, well, I'm not really interested. So I went and I met Ralph Manson. [00:44:00] And Ralph was an extraordinary guy. I mean, really like lit up the room. Um, I've told this story before, but what I loved about Ralph is that he didn't have a desk in the office. He just walked around.
[00:44:12] And just sat wherever he felt like it and chatted with everybody, the original hotel or, yeah, the original hotel area. There was amazing. And, uh, you know, he spent most of his time out with clients and doing his thing and then he would come back and, you know, just kind of chit chat with everybody. And, and that was it.
[00:44:30] He didn't do email. He didn't do any of that stuff. I'm so envious of that, that kind of life. The no email life sounds amazing. So, um, and, and so I met, you know, I met him and really, really, really liked him. And then, um, you know, he had already actually retired from the firm many years before, and then I met Tony Sherpa and Dina, Frank, where the, which were the two that actually own the firm and ran the firm, um, and worked and, you know, essentially.[00:45:00]
[00:45:00] Got an offer and figured what the heck, let me go. This is my opportunity. We had talked about the idea that I would come in and I would very quickly run the firm and that eventually there would be some sort of ownership. And this is now going back almost 10 years. And. So I came over and to their credit, they let me really start to change the firm.
[00:45:24] And we, you know, it, it, it had a lot of legacy, you know, people and, and we started, I started bringing in, um, some other people that I had worked with and there were people here that were probably overlooked. Um, and specifically my partner, bill Mandera, Scott Harrell, um, they, you know, they were people. Um, you know, we kind of formed a bond together and really started to change the culture of the firm.
[00:45:53] And the types of work that we did and build it into what it's become today. And along the [00:46:00] way, uh, I I've told this story before, but Tony Sherpa said to me, um, I had said to him, something like Tony winter, you know, what's your plan for retirement? I think we were having like a casual conversation about it.
[00:46:13] And he said, well, nobody's ever made me, you know, And I said, oh, that's interesting. I, I get it. So I went back that day and that night, and I basically compose an entire office of an entire offer about how I was going to buy the firm from him and from Dina and take along bill. Um, and we would purchase the firm from them over a period of years, and this is how we were going to do it.
[00:46:41] And you know, this was the valuation that, you know, we had to get evaluation done. And eventually again, I send this Tony's credit. I mean, he was wonderful during that process. I hear nightmare stories of, you know, ownership, transitions and things like that. And, you know, it's a Tony's credit. He wanted to retire [00:47:00] and he understood that.
[00:47:02] Essentially, we were his vehicle to, to retirement. And that's what we did. And, and, you know, over a period of years, we bought the firm from Tony and, and he retired and we've been running it ever since. And that's kinda how, how it happened. So I, I told this on the business of architecture podcast. Um, so you never know, you never know who you're going to, you know, you never know if you don't ask for it, you'll never know what the, uh, what the response is going to be.
[00:47:28] So. Well, it
[00:47:30] Dan Ryan: also goes back to the idea of hospitality and that idea of anticipation and listening. It's really like, Hey, what do you want? How can I serve you? And if you don't ask, you'll never know. So, um, building on that, let's go back to you. After graduate school, you're standing in front of pavilion. On campus at UCLA.
[00:47:49] I'm a Trojan. So BU but you're standing outside Pauley pavilion. And you, you, as you are today, walks up to you in front of poly pavilion. You're almost finished with architecture school. [00:48:00] What advice do you give your younger self?
[00:48:03] Christian Giordano: That's a really good question. I think my advice would be to enjoy the journey and not be so stressed out about it along the way that it it'll all work out in the end.
[00:48:17] Um, not that, not that I've written the, the, the last chapter yet, but, um, I think that really is for me, the moral of the story, right? Is that yeah. Buying a business this way, running a business, you know, dealing with things that I, listen, I went to architecture school. I, I don't, I don't have a business degree.
[00:48:37] I'm winging it half the time. Right. And, um, you know, I fully admit that and, and that's okay. I, you know, I've, I've learned a lot along the way, and I think I've, I've matured tremendously as a leader. And as a business owner and every day I learn a little bit more. Um, but I'm always the type that's, you know, worried about what the next thing [00:49:00] is that's coming or how can we be even more innovative here, or if we're being really innovative, I almost don't enjoy the time that we're innovating.
[00:49:08] I want to know how can we do it even more? Right. How can we, maybe we're maybe we're not thinking of it. Innovatively enough. Right. Is there something that we're missing here? So I w I would like to start to enjoy the journey along the way a little bit more and not kind of worry about, you know, exactly where we're going, that the path is not yet written and to kind of follow that path a little bit more organically.
[00:49:35] It's okay. Cause that's the way it's gonna work out.
[00:49:37] Dan Ryan: Yeah. It's really, um, you know, being present, mindful and. You know, to quote a friend, the journey, the journey is the destination, right? Yeah. It's true. That's where we all are. And it's like, and we all get caught up in all this forward. Looking backward, looking like it's sometime it's all just right here
[00:49:58] Christian Giordano: right now.
[00:49:59] Yep. [00:50:00] Yeah, someone told me. Sort of the beginning of COVID we were going through I'm in this thing called YPO young presidents organization. And in my group, we were talking about, you know, some of the guys were, uh, You know, their businesses were really tanking. I mean, you know, from supply lines being shut off to advertising, going away to, um, you know, dentists, not buying materials, things like that.
[00:50:27] Right. And I was saying, you know, in mind, well, you know, this project stopped and that project stopped. And I remember one of the, one of the guys saying, you know, no matter how, um, no matter how bad you think it's going to get, it never gets that. And I will say that. COVID in the end. When I look back has actually been a really positive experience as shitty as it was along the way.
[00:50:52] Um, I really have learned to appreciate kind of what we've accomplished. The firm itself, the people at the [00:51:00] firm, um, how we. Get through adversity and then ultimately be stronger for it in the end. I think our firm is, is actually way better than it was before COVID. Um, and we're only going to get better and better from here.
[00:51:14] So, uh, you know, kind of looking at the, again, looking at the positive and things, uh, but there really is a lot of positives to be, uh, to be thankful for in there.
[00:51:23] Dan Ryan: Yeah. I think as we get, um, as COVID gets further in the rear view mirror, I think we're. Reflect on this and see it as a time of extreme creativity, a lot of white space in it, like a clean a whiteboard that basically we could rethink everything.
[00:51:38] Yeah. Yeah. I'm hearing, and I'm like hearing that in all the work that you're doing and, and your outlook. So, um, thank you for sharing all of that. And if people want to reach out to you, where can they find
[00:51:48] Christian Giordano: you Christian? So they can, um, they can find me on my LinkedIn page. Um, Uh, Christian Giordano, just, just search that up.
[00:51:57] You can also find us obviously on [00:52:00] Manzini duffy.com and then if you want to listen to the anti architect podcast that is on Spotify and apple podcasts and SoundCloud and. Wherever podcasts are sold or, or downloaded.
[00:52:15] Dan Ryan: Wonderful. Cool. Well, listen, Christian, I just want to say thank you so much for your time and just this journey of a conversation it's been really enlightening and I think we've had a lot of shared experience and, and you've changed my way of thinking about hospitality, um, as well.
[00:52:31] So, and if EV, if anyone else is. Had their feelings of hospitality change, or you're thinking about it a little bit differently, please share the podcast with others and, uh, reach out to Christian. And thank you. Appreciate your
[00:52:43] Christian Giordano: time. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. You're
[00:52:47] Dan Ryan: very welcome.
[00:52:48] [00:53:00]