Defining Hospitality

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Dan Ryan: Today's guest is a hospitality leader in the luxury full service, select service branded and independent hotel spaces. He's well versed in the various needs and variables in all sectors. He has expertise conducting the symphony of insanity, of what it takes to open a hotel on time and on budget.
He's the president of design and construction of he ladies and gentlemen, Scott Hammonds. Welcome Scott.
Scott Hammons: Thanks, Dan. It's an honor to be here.
Dan Ryan: You know what, it's so good to be here. And one of the coolest things about doing this [00:01:00] podcast is like I, I call them collisions. All these conversations that I have with people, it's, they, they're like breadcrumbs leading to other leaders within our industry.
And one of the first recordings that we did was with a friend and other leader, um, Aaron Anderson, and. After when I, as soon as I hit stop, he's like, Wow, that was so great. I was like, Are there any other people, um, that I should have on here? He's like, Oh, Scott Hammonds would be great. He's, he, he really helped show me the ropes and like, opened so many doors for me and, um, helped him become a better person than when he started working with you.
So it's just like a real, So for me personally, to be handed that football to you, um, is amazing and I, and I, I know that we've known each other for a very long time. Um, I've seen you at all of the events. We've talked here and there and um, but it's a real pleasure and honor to have you on, especially cuz not only an [00:02:00] Erin but also Josh Pearlman, who's like a dear friend of mine as well and I'm sure there's countless others.
You've impacted in a, in a positive and meaningful way. So let me start by saying thank you and it's an honor to
Scott Hammons: have you here. Well, thank you. And thank you Aaron Anderson. Uh, it's very kind of you. I, uh, love that guy. He, uh, he's got such a great entrepreneurial spirit. Um, we've done some fun projects together and, uh, I like when he follows me around the HD show or, or B dny or whatever, because, uh, I can tell people he is my bodyguard.
Oh yeah, he is. He's, he's doing some great things and, uh, I didn't realize he had said that, and, uh, it's very, very nice of him. But I'm glad to be here.
Dan Ryan: Well, I'm, I'm glad to have you here too. And I think I, so that actually, that's a great place to start, Scott. So if you think about [00:03:00] the hundreds or thousands of projects that you've been involved in, and people that you've worked with.
Right. And cuz I get this also, that there are times where I'll bump into someone and surprisingly they'll say, Oh my gosh, it's so great to see you again. You really impacted me in such a positive way at X, Y, Z. And oftentimes it's a, it's a moment that I might not remember or I vaguely remember, but it, it's amazing how those brief interactions can also be so impactful to others that we meet along our journeys.
So like, are, are there any other examples of that where, you know, you've been surprised by an impact that you've had on, on someone else in our industry or other?
Scott Hammons: Uh, well, I mean, I, I, I just think that's the greatest thing about our industry, right? It's one of the most relationship based industries out there.
[00:04:00] And, um, you know, we travel a lot. I mean, it's part of the travel industry. So, you know, we just, we, you know, we get out there and mix it up a lot more than, you know, some folks that might have an office job, you know, counting beans at their cubicle. Um, you know, I, I'd like to think that I've had an impact on people.
I, I guess I haven't necessarily written down the, all the times people have said that to me. Um, but I definitely enjoy. I enjoy the teaching aspect of, of what I do. You know, I'm actually forming a new team and I've got some new team members and, um, one, uh, one young lady who's just, just like a sponge and super eager to learn and I love sponsoring that environment.
And I wouldn't be where I am today if I hadn't had people really give me a shot and, you know, and teach me things. And, and you know, a lot of what we learn in the project side of this business is, you know, takes courage under fire, right? And, and you [00:05:00] learn, you learn. Hard lessons. Uh, you know, in, in, when you're, you're in, you're in the thick of it is when you learn the best lessons and you learn from the people that you're in it with.
And, uh, I've just, I've had some great mentors along the way, um, who've, uh, you know, they've impacted me and so I just, I try to pay it forward. And, uh, you know it, and it's not just people that work for you as an employee, right? It's, you're, you're working with a whole team of people, uh, different consultants and, you know, I'm prob probably have a reputation for driving some of those consultants pretty hard.
Uh, it's kind of required in the project world. Um, but, you know, I've got, I've got some long lasting friendships that have come out of it. Um, and, and I'd say probably some of the best friendships are the ones that came out of the, you know, some of the hardest, most grueling projects. Right. [00:06:00] Um,
Dan Ryan: I, I always take those hard grueling projects, um, as the ultimate tests, right?
And learning experiences, because if we don't learn from our mis missteps or mistakes, you know, we're, we're just, we're all doomed to repeat them. And I also love sharing with my clients. And other stakeholders, cuz there's so many stakeholders involved in a project where it's like, okay, listen, I've had this very expensive learning
Scott Hammons: experience, ,
Dan Ryan: can I please share it with you?
Um, because again, we're not saving lives. I know we hear that all the time, but in opening hotels, like there's so much of a feeling and there's so much nuance that goes into what a hotel is. But at the end of the day, it's also a fi it's a financial asset in, in a real, in a real estate segment. Right? So time does equal money and there is, uh, a [00:07:00] positive or negative ROI on the good things and the bad things that that can happen.
Scott Hammons: Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, yeah, that's, you know, that, that really is. That's the, the whole basis of what I'm doing now. Um, you know, you introduced me as President of Design and Construction for e ei. Um, the interesting thing that a lot of people don't know, and it's, I'm giving you, I guess I'm giving you the exclusive here, um, to use a, a, uh, a press term.
Um, you know, we, when I was brought on to h e, the partner's vision always was to create a, uh, a separate subsidiary of h e uh, a significant component to what h e does. But we're gonna be branding, uh, this, this firm separately, and we actually, as of this week, have come up with a name, which is ground level hospitality development.
Um, and, you know, we're, [00:08:00] you know, our, our sort of, our first task is, is to be a, a major, major tool to the h e, uh, investment team and, and helping, um, Analyze, underwrite, and then, uh, project manage, uh, new acquisitions and, um, but, but we're gonna be set up to do that for, uh, all of each guy's family of investment partners on other projects and, and even new partners.
I guess I would, I would say I'm giving you an exclusive here, Dan. Uh, th this, uh, new, new breaking news, we we're, and this has been our intentional alum, is for this, uh, this firm, if you will, to be, uh, separate, a separately branded subsidiary of eachi.
So we actually have a name as of this week, which will be ground level hospitality development. And, um, you know, I think the owner's perspective and the significance of the [00:09:00] investment that goes into hotels is really the basis of what we're doing and, and how we go about things. So, you know, we're, we're our first, our first job in a lot of what we're doing right now is a major tool for the h e investment team to bring quality acquisitions to the table and underwrite them and understand how to reposition hotels, hopefully better than a, a third party could do.
Um, but we're also set up to help, you know, any of the investment partners that e EI has in the family, um, or any, any other new customers. I, I actually had a, uh, a new customer kind of come by way of relationship, uh, this week. And, um, you know, we're, we're going to be, uh, picking up a small, uh, small little project in the Caribbean, uh, thanks to that relationship.
So, once again, it's all relationship based, but, you know, we're, rather than being a third party project manager, um, you know, [00:10:00] I'm, I'm kind of coining the term first party project management. Um, Ooh, first
Dan Ryan: party project management. I like that. And so, Unpack that one for us. Like first party, because you're, you're a subsidiary or is it gonna be a whole separate company from h
Scott Hammons: e?
It's, it's a subsidiary. Yep. Um, which, um, so separately branded, um, you know, we're not, we're not necessarily tied to, um, everything h e does, but h he we're the benefactor of having an operating partner, like h e Hmm. And they're a benefactor of having us to help, um, you know, bring these deals at the ground level, you know, to fruition and, and then, you know, take them all the way from the ground level through, you know, to a, an activated or repositioned hotel.
Um,
Dan Ryan: but, And then Scott, let me ask a question on that, cuz I know you're on for the h e portfolio, it seems to be. [00:11:00] Slightly more than a majority are branded hotels, so let's call it 60% or some something, and then 30 or 40% are independence. Do you find that ground level will be adding Val more value to.
Ownership groups outside of h e on the independent side? Branded side, Or is it gonna, do you think it's it'll be like an even mix.
Scott Hammons: It'd probably be pretty balanced. You know, I think, um, my experience that I'm bringing to the table is really balanced between the branded hotel world and the independent hotel world and.
And a lot of what I've done and a lot of what we hope to do in the future is repositioning of hotels. The way the market is right now, you know, there's, there's a lot of hotels. If, if a hotel's going to get acquired, it's going to be, because there's, there's room to do something with it. There's room to rethink it, uh, reactivate it, reinvent it.
And in some cases that might be rebranding a hotel from one brand to another or from a, a, [00:12:00] a, a traditional brand to a soft brand. Or it might be, uh, taking a branded hotel independent. And so I think we've got such a depth of, of, um, experience and partners that we can kind of. We can go into a deal with open eyes and open minds and, and, and be creative with what we can do with it.
Um, so I mean, that's one of the biggest differentiators. I mean, there's third party project managers and I just can't bring myself to describe myself as a third party. Like, it's, it's just, you know, I've only ever worked on the ownership side of things. I only have an ownership lens. Um, so, you know, I really want to bring that, bring that to the table.
And I,
Dan Ryan: I love hear, I love hearing you say that, Scott, because it also first party, third party, I, I see the tension between that, but it's really, I, I always find that, you know, the people that are the most involved and care the most about what they do is, no matter what it is, [00:13:00] is when they, they feel like they have an ownership stake in it.
Correct. That's excellent. And that's a, that's a real level of caring. And actually, to, to peel back on that a little bit, um, the skill set you have. To quote Liam Neon, right? Mm-hmm. . I have a very particular set of skills, , but, uh, the skill set, that's funny. The skill. I laughed at my own joke. That's good, . Um, but as you, you've, you've honed and refined these skills within the built environment, right?
So you really could do this in office, you could do this in education, you could do this, um, in residential. Like what's the draw or attraction that you have to hospitality?
Scott Hammons: Well, I mean, yeah, you're, you're probably right. I probably, we probably could take this service into other sectors and who knows, Maybe we will, you know, I think there's, there's definitely a lot of room for hospitality influence in other sectors.
Mm-hmm. . [00:14:00] But there's no business like the hospitality business. I mean, why? it's just such a dynamic and immersive experience as a business, I guess it's very similar to theater, right? Except as opposed to a theater where you've got actors on stage and people backstage and people in the audience.
Everybody's sort of interactive and, the audience members are being pulled up on the stage and the back of house people are being pulled on stage. it's like, a living, breathing experience. and, service. You know, when you provide hospitality to somebody, it's just a very complex product.
And, it really should use, you should be able to tap into all five senses when you're delivering that product. Um, and,
Dan Ryan: okay, but, so then, I love that idea and the metaphor of [00:15:00] theater and everyone is involved. So to reflect back what I heard you say and interacting and involved, and interacting, when, like when did that hospitality hook, so to speak?
Stick into you. When did it grab
Scott Hammons: you? Oh, for me. Uh, yeah, 1994. When I, when I, uh, started, I started as a security, uh, started as a gate house attendant and security guard at Mohawk Mountain House, which is a, an old Victorian resort in the Hudson Valley. And, you know, near New Pulse,
Dan Ryan: uh, next to the, the Saga Gunks.
Yep.
Scott Hammons: The Shawan Gun Mountains. Um, or the Sha Gun Ridge, as people call it. Um, you know, that hotel, it's still owned and operated by the same people that founded it in 1869, believe it or not. Um, the fa the. The family that founded it, the smiley family. And, and so when you start [00:16:00] working there, they put you through an orientation and you learn this story about, you know, the twins and their wives.
They discover this place, they buy it, and then they build this magnificent hotel. And if you've never seen a picture of it, it, if there was ever a hotel, you see one picture of, and you're sold, that's Mohawk Mountain house. And so I was just totally, um, seduced by hospitality. I think when I, when I started there and, you know, when I finished, co paid my way to college, working there.
And, and when I finished I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do with my life. And my dad was like, Dude, you're doing it . You're well, I mean, have. Paid attention to the fact that you're successful in hospitality, you have fun with it. Like why not make a career of it? And so that's really, I think ever since then I've gravitated to hotels that are not cookie cutter, that are unique.
It's been kind of my mission to. Help create hotels, give [00:17:00] hotels a story, give, you know, do something that's a little different. Um, you know, I was fortunate I got to work. Uh, after working at Mohawk, I got to work with Kimpton Hotels and that really opened my eyes to the lifestyle hotel world. And I, you know, to, to really double down on lifestyle.
I got to work for Ian Schrager and opened the Gramercy Park Hotel. And you know, now even when I'm in a brand branded hotel, Um, you know, sort of a big box, traditional branded hotel. You know, it's fun to, you know, think about, you know, if this is theater, I guess I, I work in set design, right? Um, and you know, how do you, how do you make that big branded hotel its own unique experience?
It doesn't have to be, you know, the same fox hunting picture over every desk in every city. Um, so, and that's, that's probably a throwback to the eighties right there. But to show my age . So
Dan Ryan: I [00:18:00] actually, I, I, I don't know, I guess I did bad research or something. I didn't know you worked at Kimpton. Kimpton is like a real part of my upcoming into the, into this industry.
But then also I'm schrager so. That working on that gram seat park hotel? That was, was that when it opened when you were there?
Scott Hammons: Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I opened it. Yeah. In fact, that it's heartbreaking to see that, you know, I saw the, the posts about liquidating the hotel and I have blood, sweat, and tears in that building.
It's honestly probably one of the projects I'm, you know, one of my favorite projects when you think about a unique experience and involving all five sentences. But yeah, it's heartbreaking that it's closed. Um, you know, just,
Dan Ryan: yeah, because if you think about, like I've said this before, um, with respect to Kimpton and the, and the independent slash boutique, whatever, however you define it, and wherever you draw the lines between them.
I always said that, you [00:19:00] know, I think that was the first real independent slash boutique hotel company that, um, That kind of scaled scaling Yeah. To like, you know, 15 or 20 properties, whatever. But they were able to do it in a way that when you walked into a Kimpton from a service and giving and receiving of hospitality, Yeah.
You just knew it was just always different. You could feel whatever that difference was in Kimpton. That, and that would be on kind of one side there and then on the other schrager and just how, from like the Manon to the cliff, to the Gramercy Park and just so many of these iconic
Scott Hammons: design. I mean, there's
Dan Ryan: nothing, The design, I mean yeah, it was stark and all.
I mean, just like it, it just really kind of turned the whole idea of what that boutique or in. Hotel could be. It's turned it up on its head. Yeah. And, uh, I really respect all this, everything that, uh, Schrager's done all the years and then all the collaboration with, [00:20:00] with Marriot. And like, I just, I'm very intrigued by that also, to go from something so special and unique to, you know, going with the biggest dog out there of Marriot and like how did they navigate that with addition?
And I think that they've really kept it. I think they've kept it really cool too, so. Oh yeah.
Scott Hammons: It's neat how
Dan Ryan: definitely how big companies can, can do that. Like as a Marriot and uh, addition. And then also as ihg, a big company has bought Kimpton, but also let Kimpton kind of Yeah. Flourish and be its own thing.
Yeah. And I think it's, um, how do you think those big, those bigger companies really navigate that level of feeling and, and theatrics, if you will, without like changing it too much? Cause I've seen it, I've seen them get crushed also. With when other companies get acquired, But how, what do you think the, a trick in or a, how do you think they balance that?
That's really
Scott Hammons: interesting. Well, some, some people are, some of the [00:21:00] bigger brands are doing it better than others. They're all, I mean, listen, the, the groundwork that the Kimpton hotels and the, the stringer slash Morgan's hotels of the eighties, you know, they, they, they, I mean they're really kind of one of the founding catalysts for the experiential economy, if you think about it.
And it's translated far beyond hotels, right? It's, I mean, now if you, if you go to the New American Airlines lounge at dca, like you can see hospitality's influence on that. Um, but I think, you know, the bigger brands, they all, you know, they all ask for their to be a design narrative. You know, they all want, and, and it's almost in some cases, In some cases it, it, it becomes almost a little, a little too much, you know, to try to, you, you can't turn a big, you know, 500 room Marriott into a Kimpton hotel from a story perspective.
[00:22:00] But, but they do ask and challenge you, um, in my line of work to come up with a design narrative for what you're doing that has more than just pretty pictures and, you know, cool chairs. So I think, you know, that's really. All of the brands have now adopted that process, um, in order to try to achieve it.
Now some I think, are better than others. Um, you know, I, and I think it's kind of funny how it's all, all the brands are starting to kind of blur a little bit. And I, you know, you had brands and then you had soft brands, and now you've got the brands trying to be more soft. You know, they've got, they're all competing with each other.
Um, totally. But, uh, you know, I think, listen, some, the, the, the soft brands out there have done really well. I think the soft brands are the perfect compromise. I think from a, you know, if you, if you want to be the faithful points collecting either Marriott customer, Hilton customer, but you love the [00:23:00] unique experience, um, of, of an independent hotel.
I mean, they were really, that was probably one of the more brilliant inventions in hospitality in the last few years. And it, it actually has created some good opportunities for a lot of the people that I work for to acquire a hotel, pump new life into it and, um, and re reposition a hotel, but still be able to capitalize on the, on the, the power of the brand family.
Mm-hmm. . Um, but, you know, I think. The whole hotel doesn't have to be a story either. You know, you can create, um, you can create a, a really cool story with just one venue in the hotel. And, and I've done, I've done a couple of these projects with, you know, where it's a, it's a very cool, independent, almost like an independently branded.
Restaurant in a big box hotel. And what that does is it allows you to, it allows the people selling that [00:24:00] hotel, you know, they bring those group leaders in and they show 'em the hotel. If they can show them this one element that gives 'em a sense of lifestyle and something unique, then they get the whole group.
There's like a halo effect. It's not just the profitability of that restaurant, it's the halo effect of having elements of lifestyle in the big box. Um, working right now on a, on a really cool. Uh, project in Minneapolis where we're doing that in a Western hotel. Um, and, you know, it's, uh, you're gonna bring a a, it's a sort of a Kimpton like model if you think about it.
You know, Kimpton's original philosophy was the restaurant should always be branded separately from the hotel. It should have its own identity. And so, you know, we're, we're doing that more and more of the big box hotels, but I think it's kinda hard to assign a story, an overarching story to a big box brand, traditional branded hotel.
And that's, that's how you go about it. [00:25:00] Um,
Dan Ryan: a few minutes ago you said something that really resonated with me, which is, um, speaking for. The shrager of the eighties or the kimptons of the eighties as a catalyst for the experiential economy. Right? It's really like getting super hyper localized and creating this really unique experience, right?
Yeah. Based on whoever their perspective customer is. And then if you think about this idea of first party project management, right? Where, what, okay, so if it's an h e branded hotel, right? You're or owned, hotel owned, operated hotel, you're there, Um, you're dealing, you're, you're create, you're understanding what the thesis is of what you guys at h e are trying to do for, for an an owner that's not part of the e experience or, or umbrella, if you will, or portfolio.
If you take that idea of first party [00:26:00] management, are you coming in with those. Ownership groups at the very earliest stages where they haven't even come up with an experiential concept. Are you helping like walk us through, like an owner will come up and say, Hey, I want to do this, meets this and blah, blah blah, and have this experience and then.
How do you kick that off so that you can create that
Scott Hammons: experience? Well, there's, so that, that, I mean, that's the base that, that's the whole tenant behind ground level is you, you bring us in at the very beginning. And a lot of our, a lot of our partners, you know, I'm saying partners and not clients cuz it's really our, our approach, you know, our, our investment firms, right?
They don't necessarily have hospitality people or even designing construction people in their organization. And so they're obviously looking for the dollars and cents, the return on the investment. Um, so by [00:27:00] bringing us in early, and I can give you an example, there's. A big potential acquisition that hopefully will, will be public in the next, you know, next couple of weeks.
Um, that I went to on my, my second day with h e I went on this due diligence trip and, you know, in due diligence you're, you're, you're walking around looking for, you know, is there a leak in the ceiling and is, does the elevator work and the chiller work and all that kind of stuff. But, and, and there's a million people that can do that.
But what, what we do is we go in and we say, What, what about this hotel is successful and where's their opportunity? And so this particular hotel and that I have in mind is, is more of a resort property, but does a lot of group business. And it was just lacking it, It was lacking some of the activation and the programming that would make it more resort like.
And so it's one of those things where you, you look at the hotel online, you book it, you , I'm going to a resort. And then you get there and it's, [00:28:00] it's just not that resort. Like, And so how do we make it more resort like, you know, you the, the lobby, the food and beverage experience needs to be unique. The pool experience needs to be unique.
Um, and so, Worked a lot of those ideas into our due diligence before, you know, before purchase and sale agreement was ever signed. Um, and that's really, that's, that's all I've been doing for the last few months is really, um, looking at a lot of these deals early on and figuring out how do you add value besides just tweaking the, the occupancy and the rate to get the best rev bar.
Um, and like I said, sometimes you get a, you, there's a dual effect. You can say, Okay, I can make that restaurant more profitable, uh, by making it cool. But if you can drive the group business or the transient business in addition to that, then it compounds the, the profitability.
Dan Ryan: And, and then that's from, at the very [00:29:00] early stage, it's, you know, you're involved with saying, Okay, well this architect, this designer this, um, f and b.
Person, like, it's like, hey, let's like really look at them and see how yeah, we can create this really seamless
Scott Hammons: experience. Is that, And we have, we have just an incredible roster of consultants in all those categories, right? And, and some of 'em, you know, some of them are good for some projects and some of 'em aren't, you know, And so, you know, we tend to kind of create the perfect cocktail of talent for the project.
Um, you know, I've got, I, I've got some, like one of my favorite designers, uh, is, is Wilson Ishihara, and it's really primarily just Mark Wilson and Yoko Ishihara. And they do just incredible. And restaurants, They love restaurants. Um, but I would, you know, they, they would tell me not to put them on a guestroom job cuz it's just not what they do.
Um, but then I've got other [00:30:00] designers that are incredible, you know, incredible guestrooms and, and so in some projects, if it's a, if it's a fairly big master plan or fairly big repositioning, you might actually couple two different designers in two different areas. Um, so, you know, I think that's one of the things we're, we're definitely trying to bring to the table is, you know, a roster of people we've used over the years that we have those relationships with.
Once again, comes back to that relationship. Relationships. Yeah. Um, but also the unique experience. Um, and when you hire a third party project manager, you know, You're, it's kind of like a general contractor. It's like who you get, you know, who's the superintendent on the job? It could be the greatest super, the greatest general contractor in the world, or the biggest.
But if you don't have a good superintendent, they're not gonna do a good job. And a lot of the third party firms out there, you know, they're hiring, they're hiring kids outta school that might not have as much experience. They might be [00:31:00] putting them in multiple sectors. You know, I've had project managers from certain companies that are working on a hospital in three hotels at the same time.
And, you know, so I different, I, I like just surrounding myself with people that have this incredible experience and hospitality focused. I mean that's, I can't imagine working in any other sector, to be honest with you.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. Well, okay, so let's pretend I own, If I owned a hotel that was not currently in the H EI portfolio, obviously it's owned separately, but not managed by h e would ground level.
If ground level were to come in as a first party project manager, Right. So is we set the vision, you guys help execute the vision. Is is a goal then to also have h he help manage that property as well? Or like is there, what, what, what other accretive um, services does HEI bring to the table? I'm, I'm curious about that cuz I mean, how.
It, it doesn't [00:32:00] total the total number of properties, but it like goes on forever as far as your whole portfolio. Yeah. How many properties are in your portfolio right now? ?
Scott Hammons: That's a good question. I think it's 89, but I, I, uh, Ted, Ted might, Ted might, uh, yell at me if I got that number wrong. Just kidding. Uh, I'm sure
Dan Ryan: it's, it's, let's say it's, let's say it's 89.
It's changing and I think we're also entering a period in our industry where that trading the velocity or frequency of the trading of management companies gaining properties, losing properties, acquisition disposition, I feel like the volume's gonna start getting turned up on that. So it, it's a, it's a moving target to say the least, but let's say, you know, between 80 and a hundred, um, properties, I have this, let's say I have this hotel that's outside of that umbrella.
I've like, Hey Scott, I've worked with you before. I want you to make this vision come to a life. Help me make this vision come to a life. What other elements does h he could h he bring to the table that are creative [00:33:00] to the success of the project?
Scott Hammons: So, uh, you know, h he started as an owner operator, um, a fund driven.
You know, owner operator, and then really kind of transitioned more over the years into this third party management world. But now there's a big focus on, on joint venture acquisitions. And so h e um, leverages an incredible investment team. We have, we have, I think we have 14 people on the investment team and led by Clark Henrati, who's just a brilliant hotel investment guy, veteran of the industry.
But then he's got several veterans under him, leading teams of three or four people, and they just are like, I would say after being at the lodging conference, I think. Our team is probably more active than most. They just have this, uh, ability to find unique deals. And [00:34:00] so a lot of what we're doing is, is bringing sliver equity to the deal.
We, we, we basically do the legwork to find the perfect deal. We bring a sliver of equity, and then we bring in people from our, our family of investment partners. And then, you know, ideally we, we h ei ends up managing the hotel and ideally ground level will end up managing the development or redevelopment of that property.
But they're not, uh, they're not, those two things aren't we, to each other. So you, knowI is a very, So what I, one of the reasons why I joined the h e and I love is that they are very relationship based. You know, if, if you ever ask that word again, you know, and, and, and it, and they truly like, I'll give you a good example. Um, they're, there's no is no. Sort of formal board of directors for executive committee that's ever, you know, you [00:35:00] don't hear the words, Oh, we've gotta send that to executive committee.
What, what gets said in the office is, let me run that by the three partners. Oh. So
Dan Ryan: it's like super entrepreneurial and not as, uh, as calcified with systems and processes. So it like, Yeah, it brings about a lot more, uh, flexibility in, in, in
Scott Hammons: execution. And, and the business is truly run by three veterans with very distinct experiences working together.
So there's not, you don't have this like hierarchy of like, Well, we gotta go, we gotta go get, To, uh, approve that, you know, and, and or a board,
Dan Ryan: which is even better or a right. Making a decision of the, deciding by the lowest common denominator in many
Scott Hammons: cases. And so then E e's got these partnerships with other firms and, um, through other owners that we manage for.
And so it just, it's just that was the great opportunity for me was to start something that [00:36:00] is very relationship based, start a project management discipline that that isn't, you know, I don't have to go out and beat the street. Um, a lot of the work we're doing is coming to us organically through those relationships and working for people that view themselves as partners, not clients, and, you know, it's just, it's good chemistry.
Dan Ryan: I love it. And then as you, you know, you've been there since, what, July? July or something? July, yeah. July. So, Okay. You're, you're just starting to. Get your, your feet under you or your feet are under you. You're just starting to get up to speed. Um, what, as you look to the future, like what's exciting you most about what you, what you see?
Coming down the pipe. Um,
Scott Hammons: I think just the, probably the most exciting thing is a lot of the, a lot of the stuff we're looking at it, it's very diverse. You know, there's, there's, there's downtown urban hotels, there's big box hotels, there's [00:37:00] independent, there's luxury, um, there's resort market. Um, and that's, I guess, varies the spice of life.
And, and, and I've been fortunate that I, my career I've gotten to play in all those different sandboxes and, uh, so I think that's fun. I mean, it just, you know, ev every project is its own experience and, you know, I, I wouldn't want, I wouldn't want a job where all I did was build Courtyard by Marriotts or, you know, a select service brand that's the same in every city where you're literally using the same architectural module and the same f e package.
I get to work on such a variety of projects, um, and, and it's just a super cool.
Dan Ryan: I, for me, I, I agree with you. I'm also drawn to the, and my business is also set up in a way that it's like the big box or the select service, It's a very interesting sandbox, but I'm [00:38:00] not equipped to supply into that sandbox.
Right, right. Um, on the, on the, on the one off kind of unique, independent, I don't even know what they're called anymore. Custom work like that to me, is much more interesting. I think what's also cool though, is it, it not, not one is not necessarily better than the other. And I think whether it's, you know, being creative or analytical or mathematical or artistic, no matter what we're all drawn to in one aspect and where we excel.
Yeah. It's also reassuring to know that. There's other people who are just as good at Phil at doing the other things that we are not necessarily the best at. And, and I think it brings up this idea of like, you know, what's the highest and best use of, of our life experience and time and, you know, where our quote unquote zone of genius is.
And I, I think whether it's the path that you've chosen or that I've chosen, or that anyone listening, like if you're [00:39:00] deciding like there's gotta, like much in the same way that your dad said when you were deciding, Oh, do, what do I do? Do I, And he's like, Dude, you gotta stay in hospitality sometimes. We might not even know where that place is, but as, as long as we can ask as many people and be able to find that place where it doesn't feel like work, obviously it is work.
Yeah. But you know, we're
Scott Hammons: just, there are definitely days that it does Right. . But, uh, but, but
Dan Ryan: remember those days are those ex, usually those days are those expensive lessons Exactly. That we can share with our new first party projects that we're on. Right. Where it's like, Hey, let's, let's be a partner, let's be an owner.
Let's, let's have a shared, let's be a stakeholder in this together. And I think, I don't know, I just think it's really important to, to recognize the, the lanes that we've kind of developed over time. And, and if you're a lot younger listening to this, it's, try as many lanes as you can because [00:40:00] sometimes the, the lanes that are like oof, that's take
Scott Hammons: reflect,
Dan Ryan: right?
Yeah. But sometimes like touching the stove and burning your hand, that's just as informative as being in a place of. Of, of where you are all the time because Oh wow, I just really didn't like that. That can inform a whole different, uh, career path. So if, as, as you look back on your career path, like, was there ever like a, it could be a project or a place where it was like, it was touching the stove for you that was like, Oh, let me get back into my, into my
Scott Hammons: jam.
I mean, yeah, I, you know, I guess the, you touch, you touch the stove all the time when you work in project management, right? Like, it's just how bad, how bad is the burn? Um, and, uh, you know, so I mean, I, I love, in my career, there's been a number of occasions where I've said, Man, if I could do that, I can go do anything.
And then [00:41:00] a year later I'm like, Man, if I can do this, I can do anything. It, it's like the challenge is, I don't know that they necessarily always get bigger, but, but they're always different and, and so like, there's no, And that's I guess, my career. Like I didn't go to school for design. I didn't go to school for engineering.
I didn't even go to school for hospitality. Every single thing I've done in my career, I had to take the bubble wrap off and dive in and just try it. And, you know, I've been really fortunate along the way people have said, Yeah, this, this guy's dumb enough to try it. We'll let him do it. and uh, um, you know, so as if there's younger people listening, that's something I say all the time.
You take the bubble wrap off, Don't you know you. Try, try it. Try it. Like if you, There's no re there's no, I don't think in this world anymore. You know, there, now you gotta go to [00:42:00] medical school to become a doctor. At least I, I hope that's still the case. Um, YouTube surgery via YouTube, but with so many careers, it's not about what college class you've taken.
Right. It's about what what have you been willing to try and learn and, um, you know, that's, I I'm very fortunate that way. You know, I, I often make the joke, I'm, you know, I'm not an engineer, but I play one on tv or I'm not an interior designer, but I play one on tv. Um, you know, but it, that's how you, that's how you, you just.
Surround yourself with smart people, try new things. And in the hospitality business, there's so many new things to try all the time. Uh, but I guess to go back to your question about, you know, is there, are there any serious moments? I would say that, uh, probably one of the more significant, uh, and I wouldn't say burns, but just crazy experiences was [00:43:00] rebuilding Frenchman's Reef in St.
Thomas after two category five hurricanes. Hit it, going through insurance claim with litigation, getting it halfway built and then having to close it down for Covid, right? Like, these are the kinds of things that you can't make up . You can't say, Oh, I want to go do that. But it's like getting a, it's like its own little unique master's degree, um, that you can now go apply to something else.
Um,
Dan Ryan: I, uh, I love the metaphor of taking the bubble wrap off. And, but it's not just, I, I would also push back on you also. It's not as an individual having the initiative to want to take the bubble wrap off and potentially break it, but also learn, but it's also surrounding yourself with mentors, bosses, other Oh, totally.
Stakeholders and teammates who allow you to take the bubble wrap off and be like, Listen, we're not saving lives. [00:44:00] It's what we're doing is very important. But like, you gotta, you gotta try these things out and you know what, if you break them, hopefully it's not too bad. And we, it's all, we can always learn from that as
Scott Hammons: well.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it, and yeah, once again, I mean, I've worked, I, I have. I'll call them partners. They're people that don't necessarily work in my business unit, but end up working with me on a lot of projects. And, you know, I'll give you, for instance, there's, there's, uh, one general contractor, uh, that I have used on quite a few projects, and we started off with an absolute disaster of a project.
And there there was a, there was some burning going on . And, and, and there might, there might have been a. You know, a fairly, uh, tough conversation or two, but because we worked through all of that, they ended up becoming really [00:45:00] trusted resources of mine. Um, and so some of my, some of my favorite consultants or contractors or designers are the people that you've kind of been through the, you've been through the fire together.
And so now you know, when you go into a fire again, you know, you got each other's back. You can trust them and you know what they got when, when you, you know, they've got courage under fire.
Dan Ryan: So I love that you bring up the fireman metaphor because I wanted to bring it up, um, because you mentioned Aaron and Josh earlier, but Aaron actually was a fireman, which surprised
Scott Hammons: me.
Did he know that? Yeah, I did. Yeah.
Dan Ryan: Unbelievable. But like in, in what way? Like when he started working with you, um, what were some ways that you, as his boss said, Hey, take the bubble, wrap off that, and like, Just, just go get it done. And, and you know what? You have permission to break it because you're gonna learn.
Do you have any, like, i I, for you, I'm thinking about you as a, as a [00:46:00] mentor, and I'm just joking about the fireman thing or right, using Aaron as an example, but speaking generally, like how do you as a, as a boss or a mentor or a, a superior, how do you give permission to those that are reporting to you or other stakeholders in a project to take the bubble wrap off and try it?
So
Scott Hammons: I try to, uh, I try to prepare people for what they're walking into, but I still make 'em walk into it. Right. Um, you know, and, and I, when Aaron first started, I threw him on a project that had a, uh, and kind of a messy, um, fff e procurement situation. And, uh, it did not involve you, uh, . Great. Um, and, uh, you know, we had a lot going on and I needed somebody to kind of take the ball and run with it.
So, you know, he didn't necessarily have all the background, but I said, Listen, sometimes not having the background's the best way to go in, cuz you're gonna ask questions [00:47:00] that you might not otherwise asked. Um, but I would stay close to him. I gave him some tools and I remember he came back. He said, Well, listen, they, they, they.
They, they agreed they want to negotiate and they're gonna, they'll, they'll do this, this, and this. And I said, No, no way. You go back to them and, and like, that's not good enough. And he, he sort of like, Oh man, you gonna send me back into the fire ? And he went back in and made a counter offer and he came back and he was like, Dude, it worked
And you know, like that's just a classic example of I'll, I'll try to arm people with tactics and some knowledge and organize the thought process, but I'm still gonna make you walk into that fire and, and get that's, that's actually
Dan Ryan: for you just to hear you say that. And this idea of rookie smarts, because like this comes up a lot in these conversations where it's a fresh experience, fresh set of eyes, but [00:48:00] oftentimes, The easiest path is to have the superior or the one with more experience go into that fire because there's a lot of zeros and it, it could be very meaningful, but to hear you give someone else the opportunity to, and a former fireman walk into that fire, right.
Um, maybe with not all the experience, like that's, I don't think that happens very often and I think it should happen more because, you know, we, we all, well, not all of us, but very often, many of us use kid gloves with. Bringing other people up or along for the ride and like, Hey, we might wanna shield from that.
But you're also shielding them from like a, a, a steepening of their career trajectory
Scott Hammons: as well, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, listen, there's times that I, I do have to swoop in and, you know, play the senior, the senior role to get something done. But, but yeah, [00:49:00] no, I, I think it's the only way to learn.
Management is to do project management. You can't learn by watching. I mean, you can learn some things by watching, but it's doing, it, it's, it's, I think that's true of most of the hotel business, hospitality. I mean, it's one of the last industries where you can literally start by cleaning toilets and end up becoming the CEO one day.
You know what I mean? Totally. It, it's, it's incredible. Um, well, look at, I also, Christmas at, at Hilton, his first hotel job was a hotel engineer. I remember him telling us that at a conference, and I was like, Man, that's so cool. Like, you're the CEO of Hilton now. Um, but Project didn't know that about him.
Yeah. Wow. He'd be an awesome guy to get on
Dan Ryan: this, on this. So I will say, Okay, so then I also get pushback too. It's like you've heard of the bellman that becomes the CEO or the, the engineer or the [00:50:00] housekeeper. But then people will say, Oh, you know, that's, that's like the one in the million shot or whatever, and I'm like, Okay.
But I think it really happens more than we think. I don't know what the metrics, That would be a really cool study, and especially now where in hospitality, we are so starved for people at all levels, but especially entry levels like now is the, I think, the best time to get into hospitality because the career path is so steep right now and so sharp that , you can come in and I bet you, you could come in, you could start cleaning rooms, you could probably be, uh, a room's exec before you know it or head of housekeeping and then boom, boom, boom.
That path of leadership or path, or path of career is so steep right now. It's a really good time to come.
Scott Hammons: Yeah, totally. I mean, if you, if you're, if you have a work ethic and, and, and you are eyes wide open and you, you're young and you get into this market, probably in [00:51:00] any industry, it's, you know, there's, there's passing lanes everywhere, right?
Um, I don't know where everybody went. It's, uh, you know, what's the, there's a television show where like all of a sudden one day, like 3 million people disappear off of the face of the earth.
Dan Ryan: Oh yeah. It's called, or or it's like that movie, The Avengers movie, where half the planet disappears.
Scott Hammons: Yeah. That's what it feels like.
Yeah. And so if, if you're still here and you got a brain and you wanna work, man, you got
Dan Ryan: it made. Totally. I, I couldn't agree more. Hey, so Scott, going back to you as a security guard at Mohawk Mountain Resort. Okay. So how old were. Uh,
Scott Hammons: 20, 19, 20
Dan Ryan: maybe. Okay. So you're 19 years old. Were you in school at the time or was that a full-time job?
Yeah,
Scott Hammons: I was in school and it ended up becoming full-time. Uh, cuz I, I needed a job to pay my way through college and, uh, I basically went [00:52:00] around to every department when, when I couldn't get enough hours in one department, I just went around telling people, Listen, I'll park cars, I'll wash dishes. And I did just about, I worked in I think almost every department at Mohawk.
Um,
Dan Ryan: Wow. Well, okay, so imagine just coming off the heels of the, the, the part of the conversation where it was like, the career path is steep. If you, if you have a work ethic, you're coming in, um, you had a real need cuz you wanted to pay for school and you wanted to accrue hours. But like if you, the Scott I'm speaking to now goes up to the 19 year old you in the telling people not to climb up the.
The rocks or whatever you were doing, . Um, what advice would you have for yourself now? Um,
Scott Hammons: you know, I, I gotta say, I can't really look back in hindsight say that I would necessarily do anything differently. Um, so I would just, I would tell, [00:53:00] you know, that 19 year old kid, there's no, don't think a job's beneath you.
Um, you know, try, you know, I, I, I would also say, you know, I would just reaffirm that. You know, understanding every component of the business is how you're gonna become that leader one day. And so, if you understand what it takes to clean a room, I've cleaned a lot of hotel rooms and it is definitely not easy and definitely not my favorite thing to do.
But when it was time to be an executive housekeeper, it made me a better executive housekeeper. And, you know, there's no, there should be no job beneath you and you should really try to do it. And, and that's, that's really it. Just work hard at everything you do and don't think you're too good to try something new.
Um,
Dan Ryan: and I also, I also think, I love the idea of the on, on the housekeeping side because Okay. It helped you become a better executive housekeeper. But you know what else? I think you [00:54:00] look at the design and the development of a guest of a new guest room package or a renovated guest room package through the eyes of the person that's actually gonna be cleaning all those nooks and crannies.
Absolutely. And but you also understand, Okay. That room could be just all stainless steel solid surface, like you just spray it down with a hose on one side. Or it could be like this super ornate, beautiful thing, but it's gonna take, you know, a housekeeper is gonna do clean three rooms in a day. Like the truth is somewhere in the middle there.
And I think understanding the full spectrum, it allows you
Scott Hammons: to, um, absolutely really
Dan Ryan: see the matrix. Yeah. And find something that works for everyone.
Scott Hammons: Yeah. And I also think, you know, my experience in the front of house has given me over the years a guest perspective. You know, because if I was at the front desk, I would hear what the complaints were, or I would hear what, what worked really well, what they liked.
Um, so I'd definitely keep all that [00:55:00] stuff, uh, in perspective during a project today. Um, I've, I've, I've, I've take, uh, taken many fabric samples and poured wine on them over the years. or Stone. I love the stone. You need the Coca-Cola
Dan Ryan: on it, or the wine. Yeah. Cause you know,
Scott Hammons: you know, I've tried to scratch the wood floor with the chair and yeah.
Uhhuh, these are definitely the things that, you know, you, you carry with you.
Dan Ryan: Totally. Um, well, If people wanna learn more about first party project management or what you're doing, um, with h he and ground level, um, how can they get in touch
Scott Hammons: with you? So we don't have our website launched. Uh,
Dan Ryan: it's
Scott Hammons: that new people.
It's that new. It's that new. There. There will probably do a press release in in the next few weeks. And, uh, but I'd say in the meantime, if, if somebody wants to get ahold of me, they can email me at s hammonds e ei hotels.com [00:56:00] and, uh, would be happy to talk to you about what we're doing. And, um, you know, it's, uh, keep, keep your ear to the ground.
You follow my LinkedIn page, I guess. Uh, as soon as I have a website and have all that information, it'll, it'll go on there. And, uh, you know, I definitely, one of the great things about being on here is I'd love, I love meeting new people and making new connections, so feel free. Awesome.
Dan Ryan: Uh, well, I just, I know how busy you are and.
Any startup, even though EI is definitely not a startup. But I think your new initiatives and everything that you're working towards on this first party, project management, I love that term. I think you have to like get a hashtag or, or get, I might
Scott Hammons: have to trade,
Dan Ryan: go before this air. This'll air in a couple weeks.
But like trade market, get the url first party project management. I don't know if it exists. Um, but maybe we can time the launch of this with the, with the press release that comes out too. I think that could be really cool and helpful. So anyway, [00:57:00] that I can help. I'm more than happy to help, so I want, I know how busy you are.
That's my long way of saying I know how busy you are. So thank you for your time, um, and insight
Scott Hammons: and experience. No, this is fun. I really appreciate
Dan Ryan: it. Thanks Scott. And then Mo also, I want to thank our listeners because again, I say this every week and it's humbling every week the, the listenership is growing every single week.
And I really believe it's because hospitality applies to not just our industry, but every industry I think we can all learn from it. Um, so if this has changed your idea of hospitality or how to give or receive it and others, please, um, share it along. Um, it's all been growing by word of mouth so far, and we appreciate everyone listening and, and all the, all the great feedback.
So thank you. Thanks
Scott Hammons: for doing the podcast. Thanks, man.
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