Defining Hospitality

Dan Ryan: Today's guest is an entrepreneur, an opportunist at heart. He has over 30 years of experience in the hospitality industry. His favorite part of the designing process is wowing the clients. He is the president and principal at s b Architects, ladies and gentlemen, Scott Lee, welcome

Scott Lee: Scott.

Thanks, Dan.

Dan Ryan: Great to be here. It, it's so good to have you on. Um, I wanted to share with our, our guests, you know, so much about our industry is all, it's all relationship and you know, we like working with the people that we know and if we could keep working with the people that we know or have relationship with or it just makes it all the more better as far as what we're trying to do in hospitality.

And I've met you a few times over the year, over the years, but we share a really. Wonderful friend in common in in, uh, David Kennedy. And I just always, I remember him meeting or meets him telling me about you and just always speaking so fondly about you. Um, and I'm just happy to have friends and friends of friends on here to just hear about your journey.

So thank you for being a mutual friend.

Scott Lee: You're very welcome. Say hello to David.

Dan Ryan: I will, I always do. I see too much of him recently. Just kidding. I can never have enough, David. Um, but one of the things that we talk about, y you know, you've built this practice and it's grown and grown. Um, I'm very intrigued by how the, the lions share of your work as an architect stays in the arena of hospitality.

So it's a two-part question, is one, how do you define hospitality? And then what's kind of, what's keeping you, what. What's kept you in this world of our, of our hospitality and design within hospitality and you, and won't let you go, or you won't let yourself go? Which one is it?

Scott Lee: Well, I guess a two part question.

I'll take the first one first. Um, you know, how do I define hospitality personally? You know, I think hospitality is, um, you know, can be measured by the degree to which you're deviating from the norm or deviating from the expected or deviating from your day-to-day life. Um, you know, so when you're enjoying, hospitality in the form of whether it's a vacation or, staycation or, leisure, however it may be defined, I think it's, um, it's, it's going to a place and experiencing the.

place and experiencing it in a way that you've got a story to tell. You've got some memories that you've made, you've done some things that you may not have done before, seen some things, eaten some things, met some people, and you came home and told people about it. And I think that is the measure of a great hospitality experience.

And I think your second part of the question was, you know, how, maybe how did I get into it and how long have I been doing it? I, I, I didn't start in hospitality. I, I had a, a summer internship in. At an architecture firm as most architecture students do, and I ended up working, ended up working on a prison.

Um, and, you know, um, I kind of decided at that point that that was probably not, um, the ideal building type for me. And I, you know, didn't even really understand that much about being able to choose, you know, building types or a path in, in architecture, but, Decided that maybe I should apply to, to, to firms that actually did fun stuff.

Um, I, uh, I, I got a job with a company called Hill Glacier Architects in, uh, in 1990, just around the time I graduated from Cal Poly and they specialized in hospitality. And I had done my senior thesis at Cal Poly on hospitality. And so this was something that was, was interesting to me and travel was interesting to me and going to interesting places.

It was interesting. So that's kinda how I got into it. And I, I never turned back. And there's many tangential aspects of hospitality, whether it be restaurants or clubhouses or spas or, you know, even retail. But, you know, as a, as a building type, I think hospitality is, um, I mean, for me, the, the, the best.

Dan Ryan: I'm also curious as an ar for you as an architect and working on all the.

Types of projects that you work on from, that you just mentioned, from clubhouses to hotels to you name it. Um, are you, if you're ever working on a, a, a, a really big mixed use property, and there may be elements of design that you're not working on in those, in that larger mixed use, are you brought in to discuss what, how, how this would translate from a, from a hospitality

Scott Lee: perspective?

Um, let me make sure I understand that question. Um, exact well, we, we do work on lots of mixed use projects, you know? Mm-hmm. , some of the most notable may be, you know, Santana Rowe, um, you know, the Miami Design District. . Um, and, you know, all those projects have such a varying, um, components to them. Most of our mixed use projects are retail driven, um mm-hmm.

with a hospitality component and, and, and most often a residential component. And we, you know, we specialize in, um, you know, in the hospitality and the residential, but if there are pieces and parts that, um, are not within our bay wick or we're not experts, we welcome, you know, others to participate. I think that's another thing about the industry is that we, you know, we work on so many projects and big projects all over the place that it's very seldom that we're designing the project ourselves.

I mean, we're not just, you know, locking ourselves in a room and, you know, coming up with the idea, you know, in a silo. Um, and then, um, it gets built like that. I mean, there's so many influences and so many. Partners, whether it be landscape architects or chair de chair designers or restaurant designers or office designers that supplement all that we do.

Right? And

Dan Ryan: then when you're, when you're kicking off those projects where you might not be working on one area of it and someone else may be, um, are you. Do you guys compare notes as far as what, how hospitality and what that lens is for each of those projects? Or do you kind of stay siloed in your part of the, of the project?

Is there, basically, I'm trying to get into, is there like cross collaboration and where you design for hospitality all the time? For people who don't, what kind of tidbits or best practices or experiences can you

Scott Lee: share? Yeah, I think a couple specific projects come to mind. We're doing a very large project called Ravana, or we call it innovation station.

It's um, I dunno, between four and 6 million square feet, um, in Washington DC and it's got all kinds of components to it. And we were paired with another architect, uh, called Michael Shu, um, in Dallas, and architects sometimes don't, um, like the forced, the forced. Um, but we keep a very open mind and we think of ourselves as collaborators and they are amazing.

I mean, they were experts at the guest experience of EL relating most, um, you know, to retail. Um, and, you know, we're experts at the guest experience related to hospitality. And so, you know, we defined kind of common values, a common language, um, you know, using image boards and, you know, word clouds and things.

So that made sure that we were reading from the. Hymnal, you know, the same sheet of music. Um, and then they're left to interpret the ground plane perhaps on that project, the, the way that they saw fit. And then we, you know, focused a little bit more on the hospitality. And the other is a project called The Link in Dallas that's got, you know, office, uh, retail hospitality.

And we are, but one of many, uh, architects and we're focused on, um, both an office building and a hospitality project and mm-hmm. , you know, and we, we think about the arrival experience, the first impression, the last impression. Views, um, you know, where the various hospitality elements are located, whether it's, you know, meeting spaces with, with gray views, rooftop bars, rooftop restaurants.

Um, you know, so, you know, we, we, we bring our, our, our unique hospitality lens to the project, but we're very curious about, you know, the lenses of others. And we do believe that, you know, you know, the, the whole. Is bigger than the sum of the parts and the collaborative aspect of this and the synergies between uses and the synergies between firms, you know, could make better projects.

Dan Ryan: And I think that's a really good segue into, you know, it's one of the topics that I've been having with people is, you know how hard it is to find. Quote unquote good people for what they're doing. Right? And so in the hospitality world, and whether it's on the design side, operation or operation side, um, there's this idea of this that's inherent in hospitality from collaboration, empathy, listening, putting others first, or really getting into the shoes of what the oth of what all the other stakeholders want and, and making sure that they have a great journey when.

Recruiting and building your teams, how do you discern whether, how those newcomers to your, to your company would excel at hospitality? Do you have like a filter for how you select how you find, and then how you select your teams or teams?

Scott Lee: Well, I, I spent a lot of time on that topic. I think the, um, uh, you know, coming to SB from my prior firm, um, I had a chance to really build a, um, you know, professional environment where I, I wanted people to be able to thrive personally, professionally, and, you know, test the theory that people who are happy, um, at.

And are engaged and are passionate about the kind of work that they're doing, are doing better work. Um, and you know, that was a theory and I think that the jury is in, and I think that we have, you know, a very, very high level of morale and a very, very strong culture. And we spend a lot of time talking about what hospitality means, you know, my definition and, and, and the definition of others.

We, um, have designed our own office to feel like a hospitality. And we treat each other and we treat ourselves in a manner that we feel is consistent with the projects that we're working on. And what I mean by that is that, you know, we have, um, you know, an in-house yoga instructor who will come in and do yoga, and we can do that together to build bonds.

Um, you know, we take, um, every other Friday and we have a wind down where we're all, you know, you know, honing our presentation skills, you know, and talking about things that we've designed or things that we've seen that we feel are relevant and important. So we spend a lot of time, um, um, you know, refining and educating our staff.

And really trying to inspire them. And some people like that. Um, and other peoples don't. Other people don't. So, um, you know, we, we, um, you know, we, we look for people who are curious. We look for people who are, are active and, uh, looking at the world through a very broad lens. Um, we look for people who have experienced places, uh, in things that they might be able to bring to the projects.

Um, we're sitting around kind of thinking about our project and we're saying, oh, have you been over here? Have you been to this project? Have you been to that place? And to the extent we can, we can all, you know, offer our, um, personal experie. And put those into this great stew of ideas. And then out of that comes, uh, an original idea that's infused by, uh, the passions of our team.

Um, we think that's a, that's a really potent, um, uh, a potent composition.

Dan Ryan: And then as you grow and work on more and more projects, you need more and more people. And how do you attract those like-minded people who are curious? Who are active, who have a really broad lens, like, is, is there a way that you find them or attract them?

Yeah. Like how, how I, I hear those are great practices and. And you said a wine, wine down, or wine?

Scott Lee: Wine, yeah. So we have a little wine, you know, we, oh, great projects. We have people zoom in, we have guest speakers. Um, you know, it's a vibrant time to, to share That's evolved over the years, but, you know, how do we find these people?

It's tough, man. We yet, you know, it's, it's a, it's a tight market. Uh, just last week we sent, uh, two of our young architects down to, um, the university of. and they went to a career fair and they were there representing us and, you know, our passion and our personality and hopefully attracting like-minded, like-minded people who wanna join the firm.

And we, we do these, we do these career fairs. We have interns from universities because we feel that they are bringing new ideas to us as much as we're sharing ideas with them. Um, you know, we have recruiters who are working on our. But I think the most important thing that we do is we, we ask our staff who are most happy here to reach back to, you know, their, their academic days, which might be longer for some of us than others, uh, or their past jobs and, or they're just, you know, socially they're out hanging out with other architects, um, and, and help us recruit and, and we actually pay them for.

We have a, we have a, a reward system, which is, you know, not as much as we pay recruiters because that's very, very expensive, but we would much rather pay our staff to help us recruit because they know us better than any recruiter ever will. Mm-hmm. . And that's been a really great thing. And if you look at all the people who work for sb, uh, there's a significant amount of them that that, that came to us through friends who worked.

And that's, they're already pre-qualified if they, you know, if they're liked by people that we like as employees. It's interesting

Dan Ryan: you say that, and I call that, um, like a cultural filter, if you will. Yeah. In the sense that I must place, I don't know, a score of people every year in jobs connecting them.

It's not what I do, but I enjoy it and mostly what I enjoy is I get to know that person. That's, that's looking for a job. And then I know the people who are looking to hire and I can say, oh, you know what? They're gonna be a really good fit. Yeah. And I think that's really important. And I also, I don't know, I think ev a lot of companies talk about this in PR in theory, but I don't think really do it in practice, but it really resonated with me and basically hearing you say, You guys can be, are your best recruiters because you know who you're, who you're looking for and you know who's gonna enjoy themselves at yoga or that wine, or the wine down where you're, where you're practicing your presentations and having speakers

Scott Lee: come in.

Yeah. Just today, i j just this morning I got an email from one of our young architects who's organizing, you know, an unofficial ski trip and we're doing, you know, tours of, you know, construction sites. And so there's a lot of things that we do to engage. The staff and keep them here because it's one thing, it's one thing to recruit them, it's another thing to, uh, retain them.

Um, yeah, when I get involved in these interviews, you know, I don't, I don't really want to look at people's drawings and all that kind of, I, I wanna, I wanna understand who they are as a person, and if it's a, if it's not a cultural fit, I don't need to look at the drawings. Um, you know, I'm thinking. So that's, that kind of for me is that if, if I can get along and have a conversation, With this person and a dialogue with this person, then you know, then you know, let's go to the next level.

But if we can't get past. Then there's no point. And I remember when Don Sandy interviewed me, um, 22 years ago to come from Hill Glacier to what was then Sandy Ba Babcock. We, I remember this vividly. We, I walked into the Ritz Carlton for breakfast with, with Don Sandy, and I had this giant bag of all my drawings and everything.

I was ready to just show him all my drawings. And I never got, I never, I never took a single drawing out. He, he didn't want, he didn't wanna see the drawings. He goes, look, if you're here. You, you must know how to do the work. Mm-hmm. , um, what I wanna understand is like who you are as a person. And that meant, that meant a lot to me, and we had a great conversation and became, you know, great friends and traveled the world together and, and, um, you know, it all wor, it all worked out.

Dan Ryan: Um, I'm curious, what's the current headcount of, of your team? Like how many people are currently working at sb?

Scott Lee: Uh, a hundred. Wow. Um, 118 and, you know, for a long time, San Francisco and Miami, were, our two offices in San Francisco has always been our headquarters and still is. Um, but right now we're about 47 in San Francisco and about the same in Miami.

And then we've recently opened a Dallas office and a London office, and we're hovering around 10 or so at each of those offices. And then we opened an office in, uh, Medi in Columbia. . Um, and then we have a lot of people working remotely, which is sort of an outgrowth of Covid. So we've got a concentration of maybe 10 people in Orange County, a couple in Seattle, one in New York, um, you know, one in Vietnam.

And so, but office wise, o offices, we have five offices, uh, but 118 people working for us globally. Wow. And

Dan Ryan: then for you as the, as the head of the company and like the visionary leader, if you. Um, what are the practices that you do to like, to keep in touch with everyone or to, to, to make the, the, that diaspora of growth kind of feel more centered

Scott Lee: and connected?

Yeah, that's a, that's a, the last thing we want is people to feel, you know, like their satellites or they're disenfranchised or they're not part of the mothership. And so, um, we do a whole bunch of things. Um, but, you know, one of the biggest, I think was. Oh, maybe 10 years ago when, you know, we were growing and I, I felt very important that we expand our ownership base, right?

I mean, that time there was maybe myself and a couple others that were owners of SB Architects, but I, I saw the need to, uh, expand that. And so, um, you know, up to very recently we had 14 owners, uh, and I owned more than anyone, but, you know, we, we continued to sell portion. Of the firm and shares to bring, um, uh, a broader base to our leadership.

And then those people, those associate principals and vice presidents and owners were, um, charged with carrying this torch of, of unification, if you will. And so it wasn't just, you know, vested solely and myself and, you know, my senior partners now that was passed to, um, the junior partners and associate Princip.

And so I, I deal most of the time with that, with that group, with that leadership group, and then they deal, um, with the, the, the rest of the staff and the teams and the studios. And so, but we, you know, we spend a lot of time, you know, building teams and, you know, having team meetings and trying to, you know, get people back into the office.

That's been a, a big challenge for us because with, you know, remote working. Um, remote working can work, but remote onboarding is very difficult. Bringing in new staff and, you know, infusing them with the culture, getting them, uh, acclimatized with, you know, who we are and how we work. Um, there really is no substitute for, you know, being in the office and sitting down face to face and, you know, drawing together.

Dan Ryan: I totally agree. Um, and it's, I feel like we're still in this interstitial moment where we're all trying. Figure out this marketplace of what work looks like from for the future. Yeah. Yeah. But I think, I think there's a lot of silver linings that have come out. Um, I really love the hearing about the, the shared equity because it really, it can really help everyone feel more vested For sure.

Right. And, and not just feel, but actually b and have. Have a, a role in the success of the company, which is, is really incredible. When did you kind of think about that? When did you start introducing that on your journey?

Scott Lee: I think it was about 13 years ago. And, you know, and, and, and one of the reasons that I left my prior firm, um, albeit I was a partner.

I didn't see that they were going to get to the point of expanding, you know, that leadership to the point where, you know, the people that were, you know, there, there wasn't a, a logical growth path, um, there. Um, and I feared here that if we didn't have a logical growth path, then people would seek that growth, that growth else.

And we had invested so much time and energy into building this team that I felt that the only path, you know, to retain these people once, to continue to, you know, inspire them and, you know, keep them, you know, financially and professionally and personally fulfilled, was to sell them part of the company, um mm-hmm.

Which we did. And, you know, some people would look at me and go, you, you're an idiot. Like you own like so much of this company. Why would you, why would you divide up the pie? Um, and my answer to that was because the pie is gonna get. And, you know, I'm happy to cut it up into smaller pieces. Um, but I, cuz I think the pie is going to get bigger as a result of that.

People are gonna stay longer, they're gonna feel more committed, they're gonna behave, uh, like owners, um, which is a slight uptick from your behavior as an employee. Yeah.

Dan Ryan: And so much of that behaving like owners are having that, that ki that vested interest. Has so much to do, I think with hospitality as well, because when you're really vested in your team and the larger mission truly, like from your heart, um, I feel like it's that it's that much easier to both give and receive hospitality or empathy or what, or whatever you want to call it, so that we're just all kind of in tune to the same frequency, uh, moving forward.

And the, I totally agree, the pie absolutely will get bigger. As you know, looking back on your career when you were starting it, you went to San Louis Obispo, correct? Yeah. Did you start off as architecture there

Scott Lee: or did you I, I did, yeah. I, I, I kind of was all architecture all the time since like, you know, junior high school, so there was no, there was no question that that's what I was gonna do.

So, yeah, I went to Cal Poly and that was, that was my focus and late in the game, um, became interested in, you know, in the hospitality aspect of Arch. And

Dan Ryan: if you were back in, in at, at San Lu Obis way at Cal Poly there, thinking about where you are now with your 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 offices, 118 people spread out, like could you have imagined the journey that you've been on back then?

Scott Lee: Not, not really, no. I mean, I, I was just hoping to get a job outta college, honestly. Um, and, and that was itself kind of tough and, you know, it didn't pay well and, you know, it was a long slog. Um, but somewhere in there, I mean, I always had a bit of an arch, uh, an entrepreneurial idea about things. Like I, I had my own business doing stuff in high school, and then I started a.

In college and, and you know, I did a bunch of like, freelance work and so I, I kind of imagined that I may be able to, um, uh, you know, do something slightly different than sort of the average career path. And, you know, fortunately I was around people who gave me those chances and, um, you know, I was oftentimes maybe that squeaky wheel asking for those chance.

Um, and, you know, it cost me to be maybe a little bit more of a self-advocate, um, that than, uh, I otherwise would've been. But I think that, you know, you gotta, you gotta, I identify where you want to go and maybe, you know, make your own path to get there. Mm-hmm. .

Dan Ryan: And when you were working at your previous firm and you decided.

And actually forget the, at the last firm, because it could have really happened anywhere when you really took I, I, I, I heard about the, or thank you for sharing about the, the entrepreneurial running experiences in high school or college. But when you were out there working and being the squeaky wheel and maybe it's not working for you, bring us all back to that moment where you had that, you took that first entrepreneurial.

Well into your career path. Like what was, what was holding you back and then what pushed you forward to take the

Scott Lee: step? Yeah, I think when I was, when I was made a, um, a partner at Hill Glacier, I was, um, I don't know, I think it was 30 or something like that, which was, um, you know, a big deal, uh, for me at the time.

Um, but I never really felt like a partner. I, I kind of felt, I, I kind of felt like I was still an employee, albeit I, I had some ownership. Um, and the difference between, um, feeling like an employee and feeling like a partner was to be able to affect, uh, in a positive way, the culture of, of the office, um, and to do all the things.

Um, and have the latitude and the freedom to do all the things, uh, that I was able to do at Sandy Ba Babcock, and SB Architects that I wasn't able to do there. And I just saw that, that, that I was never gonna be able to get there, there. And so I, you know, took a leap of faith. And again, people said, you're a partner at Hill Glacier, what are you doing?

I'm like, well, it's just, I think I could do something more. And I had to go backwards before I went forwards. I, you know, I sold my shares and I became an employee again, uh, at Sandy Babcock. And they hired me as an employee, uh, with the hope that I might be able to deliver on all the things I said I could do.

And, um, and then they sold me some shares, um, and they gave me more latitude and I was able to bring some people from, um, prior relationships and win some work, um, and do some things that I was like, wow, you know, we're, we're. We're kind of running the place now, and, uh, it felt very liberating. Um, and it felt, um, very gratifying to, you know, see change being made and see people being happy and inspired and allowed to, you know, do things um differently and to think on their own rather than be under the thumb of others.

And so I, I, I welcomed those ideas. I, I would never, you know, say, well, that's a bad idea because it's not mine if it's a good idea. And it came from the u p s guy who came in to drop off a package, whatever. I mean, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're looking for good ideas. And if you've got some thoughts, then throw 'em out there and there's no bad ideas.

Um, and so, you know, we, we really kind of opened it up to a, um, You know, a, a highly communicative, highly collaborative group. And I think that's one of the hallmarks of SB Architects is that we, you know, we think of ourselves that way. And if you go back to some of your opening statements about David Kennedy, you know, I met David Kennedy at a conference probably 20 years ago.

Um, and a lot of people burn through these conferences and, you know, uh, shake a lot of hands and, but don't really make a lot of relat. . And I think, you know, making those relationships, whether with someone who is gonna benefit you per personally or professionally, it's not really the objective. Like you're just making relationships with people that you like, and then the work will come and, you know, you, you, you can, um, and you can leverage that into, in, into bigger things.

I totally

Dan Ryan: agree and that completely, uh, resonates with me. Um, Earlier you mentioned a couple of projects. I know, uh, this innovation station, I think it was called, you said it's how many million square feet?

Scott Lee: It, it started off at nine. It's smaller now, but it's big. I mean, it's huge. So

Dan Ryan: would that be like if you were to create a spectrum of types of projects you work on, would that be on the larger end of the spectrum?

Scott Lee: Yeah. Yeah. That's big, big, big. Okay.

Dan Ryan: And then, What's like a, the, on the other side of the spectrum, what's a really, a small, a smaller project that you got, you would find you and your team working

Scott Lee: on? You know, I just did, I just a asked my staff myself and then I asked somebody to help me answer the question.

I said, you know, how many projects do we have, um, under construction right now? Like how many? And then, um, you know, how many. Hotel rooms are under construction and how, how many hotel rooms per project. And I, you know, I love like Excel and charts and stuff. Um, and so I was able to look at like really big projects and really small projects, but, uh, but the answer to that question happens to be 20 projects, and I think it's 1500 hotel rooms and 1700 residential units that are actually under construction right now.

Mm-hmm. . Um, but small projects for us are, I mean, I got a call to add four guest rooms at the farmhouse in, in, in, in Sonoma. And we took it because, um, it's a cool project and we thought we could really make a difference and we ended up getting them nine guestrooms and a spa and, you know, did some things that they didn't think we could do.

Um, and so that's a small project for us. Um, we're talking about a, you know, a small, some small glamping projects in Tahoe and other places, and, you know, those are small. Um, 50 room hotel is, is on the small side. Um, I think the average size hotel project that we do is maybe 175 rooms. Um, which means that we do Summit 500 and 600 and Summit four and eight and 20.

Um, yeah. But we don't do lots of 3000 room hotels or stuff like that. Those are, those are little bit big for us. So

Dan Ryan: the reason why I was asking, cuz like that innovation station sounds ginormous. Yeah. But if you were to take that innovation station on one side of the spectrum and then that farmhouse in in Sonoma on the other side.

I were to ask you, what kind of a thread could you weave between those two very different types of projects that would attract you to both of them with your, with your hospitality

Scott Lee: hat on? Yeah, no, that's a, that's a, that's a great, uh, question and a, and a very specific answer. The, the, the innovation station project.

You know, early in that dialogue with that client, it was a great client, by the way. Uh, Timberline, um, you know, they didn't, they didn't want to build another, um, Reston, if you will. Uh, nothing ba, nothing's wrong with the Reston project in Virginia, but it's, you know, it's a large project that, you know, brick and stucco and stuff like that.

And so, you know, we really wanted to create something, um, that was because it was further away from Washington, DC. Getting out of the urban core, we came up, we, I didn't come up with this term, one of our clients called, um, bucolic. Urbanism. Um, and so that was a blend between, you know, the city and the country.

Um, you know, lots of open space, lots of walkability, lots of, lots of things that, um, are more akin to the rural environment than the urban environment. But it's a very urban project. It's a very dense project, but how can we bring that, that bucolic kind of sensibility to it? And that was attractive to me.

Like, wow, we're gonna, we're not gonna do just another giant 9 million square foot project. We're gonna do it in a way that brings this. Experiential, um, uh, guest experience. That was a really big part of the initial dialogue of that project. And, and it, it informed the way that we were planning it and where the density was and where, where it was very low density and where it was, you know, very, um, you know, hilly and maintaining some of the natural, uh, features of the, the site, whether it be rocks or, or uh, stones or valleys or whatever.

It wasn't just let's flatten. And let's put a bunch of tall dogs. I mean, it was not that, and it was the same, the the, it's the same answer for the Farmhouse Inn, which is, you know, in Sonoma. And they've got a very strong sense of Sonoma and a very strong sense of themselves and they wanted us to enhance that.

And so, you know, one of the first things I did when I went to the site, when they told me that, when I had four rooms and I said, you know, you could have so many more rooms if you just get rid of all this asphalt, you. Asphalt road that goes right through this project. It's, you know, what if you tore it all out?

Oh, we can't do that. And you know, so we figured out how to tear it all out and we replaced it with decomposed granite and gardens and, you know, all the things that people imagine in Sonoma. And so I guess in both projects we were, I was excited about them because we could make a difference. We could do something that other people, um, weren't doing and something that would be very, very attractive to the market because it was such a deviation from the norm.

Dan Ryan: Yeah, and that's interesting cuz obviously, you know, on the larger size, on the larger side project, the innovation station, you know, that's a huge one of the con I'm sure it's a great contract, but you're also kind of re pushing the envelope of this and. And kind of inventing this idea of bucolic urbanism.

I never heard that before. But, um, yeah. So, but then on the other side, you know, on the micro side, again, you're really looking at it for how you can make a, a big difference on a, on such a smaller personal scale. And I guess both of them are involving that. Like what's the individual experience walking through, which I guess is true for any project, but I'm just, See, like what, what would be the most attractive part from the hospitality perspective?

And

Scott Lee: I don't know. I love, well, what's interesting about, you know, what's interesting about the, the question and I talk about this often is that, You know, there, there're projects, well, we're, we're asked to like, you know, which one of these mountain tops do you think the project should go on? Right? It's that, that it's at that level of, of macro, right?

It's several thousand acres and you know, we're deciding where the project is going to go on the several thousand acres. And then there's projects that are very, very small and we're kind of debating whether or not the Phillips head screw should be orthogonal or should be diagon. Right. And so, and to be asked as a professional to have that range of, um, you know, understanding or opinions about or experience with those things is pretty, pretty broad.

And it's mm. And it's super fun. And there's not that many professions that have that, that breadth of, of experience where one day you're having a conversation about this macro, macro, macro, and the next day you're having a conversation. Micro. Micro. My, yeah.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. Because most, most principals at firms that I speak to, you know, they have their lane, they stay in their lane.

Okay. So it could be hospitality, but then it could be, you know, more specifically a 220 room guest room, or, hey, we we're in the select service or full service or luxury. Um, but I love the, the fact that you. From the super micro to the Uber macro. Yeah. You're finding that thread th throughout. Um, yeah, and it's a,

Scott Lee: just a different lens.

I mean, I would just, I just thought of this cause I'm looking at a telescope over here, but if you put a lens in the telescope and, you know, and in your objective is to see like the greatness of the, like how broad the universe is. Like that's one lens. If you put another lens in and you're looking at like those little craters on the.

Um, and so, and they're all interesting and they're all, they're all architecture. Um, but it's just a different lens that you're looking at it through. And so some days you're talking about guys, you know, how are we going to get that tub, you know, and to, to, to have a view and how's that gonna be configured, you know, within the bathroom And, you know, and then, you know, the next day is like, you know, should it be four hotels or eight?

Um, so it, it's, it's, it, it's daunting in, in a way, but it's, um, you know, it's very exciting. It's very exciting, yeah. To, to, to have that kind of, uh, opportunity to look at the world of hospitality through so many different lenses. Yeah. And I think

Dan Ryan: ultimately, At least for me, and I know our listeners and you, it's that idea of hospitality that is so exciting, right?

It's that experience, like going back to what you said in the beginning, it's delivering on something above what our everyday expectations are, right? Or way above. Um, at, so looking at your past and now kind of the present of where you are. With you at the helm of SB and looking forward, what's exciting you most about what you see out there in your crystal ball?

Scott Lee: Well, you know, I, I think that the world is moving. You know, to a new definition of luxury, uh, I think, you know, the luxury that we all, you know, maybe grew up with or, or, or imagined to be the pinnacle of luxury, whether it be, you know, crown moldings or, you know, marble on top of marble and, you know, that luxury in, in that sense.

Um, I think is, is, is just but, but one definition of luxury. But I think the new definition is to have a bespoke experience. Um, and you don't care whether you've got frown moldings and you don't care whether you, you know, all, all those, all those trappings. Of luxury, the expense, the expensiveness of it, the uh, the, the, the quantification of it.

I suppose we're, we're now interested in the, in the qual, the quality of it. It's a qualitative luxury rather than a, a quantitative luxury. And I think that gives us so much more, um, latitude because all those rules of thumb and the, the, you know, the rules, um, have almost been thrown away, right? The rule book totally has almost been thrown away.

And, you know, I was just talking to, uh, this person I was thinking about hiring in, in, and the guy was like, you know what? I don't really know that much about hospitality. And I'm like, perfect, you're hired. Um, cause you know, we, what we don't want is to say like, you know, let's do hospitality. Like we've always done it.

Let's do hospitality. Like we did it in the nineties or the, you know, the early two thousands. You know, let's, let's, let's forget about all that. Let, let's start over again and just talk about how can we make the greatest guest experience and that's designed the architecture around. I love it.

Dan Ryan: And I, I, this comes up a lot as well in these conversations where it's this idea of rookie smarts, right?

Where, okay, you're new to something you may not have experience in it, and that's okay because you're bringing a fresh, new perspective That will help push us forward in whatever this new idea of luxury may be, or hospitality or what, or whatever. Um, new initiatives you, you guys might be working on at sb.

So you said earlier that you were all architecture from the time you were in middle school. Mm-hmm. , how did you know?

Scott Lee: You know, I, I, I always like to draw, um, and I always like to build stuff. And when I was little in elementary school, my mom would, would, would drive around to these construction sites with us and we would take all this construction.

I mean, not steal it, but like we'd take up, maybe we stole some stuff, but, um, we'd, we'd bring all this material, home wood and all, and we build these like, you know, crazy forts. And then, you know, we draw stuff and. You know, so the combination between drawing things and then, you know, having a, a, a tangible result of a day's work, like I built that thing.

And so that's was very satisfying to me. And then you combine, um, you know, you combine that with a personal interaction and it just seemed like a, um, you know, a really great, a really great career, um, in architecture, like, you know, drawing things. And ultimately building things, um, you know, working together, it seemed, it, it just suited me.

Wow. And

Dan Ryan: then thinking about, you know, the Scott I'm speaking to right now and then the middle school, Scott, if, if you were to appear in front of your middle school self, what advice would you have

Scott Lee: for yourself?

I would say, um, Take, take risks, um, and, you know, get comfortable with the notion that, uh, you are not ready for this yet, because you probably never are gonna be ready for anything. Um, and if you're waiting for that perfect moment, when you're finally ready, um, I think life's gonna pass you. And you just gotta jump in and say, you know what, I'll do it.

I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that on. I might fail, um, but I'm gonna do it. And if I do fail, I will have learned something, um, through that. And so, you know, volunteering to. You know, take on a task that was well above my ability or, you know, start a company not knowing anything about starting a company. Um, you know, lots of failures.

Um, but, you know, it's an accelerant to growth. I, I think mm-hmm. . And so I, you know, I signed up for all kinds of stuff that like had no business signing up for. Um, but then I did it and I came back and I'm like, wow, you know, that was, that was, that was pretty. Um, but I'm better, I'm better equipped now than before.

And you know, if you wait until you're ready, you know, whether it's to get married or have kids, or start a company or quit a job, or, I mean, be financially independent, I, you just, you're never ready. Mm-hmm. , you just gotta do it. Yeah. I, I believe

Dan Ryan: inertia is the mind killer and, uh, you gotta break through that.

So I, I totally agree. I heard an interesting question the other day. I don't know where I heard it, but, you know, everyone always, or you always hear this question, or at least I do. Hey, if you, if, if you could fail, if you, what would you try doing if you knew you couldn't fail? That was the question. Right?

And you hear that a lot, right? What would you, what would you do? But I heard it posed a different way. Um, and I'll ask you is what would you do knowing that you would. If you could try anything new, what would you do knowing that you would fail at it or could fail at it? Hmm.

Scott Lee: What do, if I knew, if I knew I would fail.

Yeah. Um, man, that is a tough one. Um,

uh, right now in my career, I suppose I. Uh, right now I would, uh, I would, I would actually do less. Um, I mean, I kind of want to do less. I've been kind of burning it. Um, you know, the candle at both ends for 30 years or so. Uh, and I, and I would do less, but I've got this kind of feeling that I might not be very good at that.

Um, but again, based on my earlier comments, maybe I should just try it, see what. Maybe a nurse the other way. And, and I think, um, and I, and I, I said, I don't think, I, I don't think I would fail at that. I, I think I could keep myself very interested and, and very busy. And the other thing is that all those people that, um, you know, we had powered, um, so many years ago and you know, that were way over their heads perhaps at the time,

And that was a risk for them to, to accept the challenge, to be an owner of an architecture firm. Um, you know, 10 years later, those people, um, are amazing. And so they don't actually need me to tell them what to do at this point. Mm-hmm. in, in, in the trajectory of the firm. Right. We have evolved beyond, you know, Scott's gonna tell everybody what to do.

Um, these people have. You know, been through the trenches with me and on their own, and they might not know it yet, although I think it's becoming apparent to them that they, um, they know how to do it and they're not gonna fail. Yeah.

Dan Ryan: Well, and also going back to failure. I, I read this on the t-shirt once and it really resonated with me is, you know, failure is really just unfinished learning.

And, uh, I think we can all learn from that. Yeah. Yeah. . Um, and also it's, it's inspiring to hear, you know, the team that you've assembled and the shared ownership or, or creating or enabling that ownership mindset to grow. Um, I think that that will also enable you to try to fail at doing less, right? Because you've created in a way, uh, a grand alignment where everyone's kind of rowing in the same direct.

Yeah. Yeah. That's

Scott Lee: envious. Yeah, that's very true. And as I think more and more about doing less and less, um, I do take comfort in. Um, you know, this, this network of, um, network's not the right word, but this, this broadened, um, base of SB architects, um, that, you know, I used to go to the meetings and I used to do all the talking and all the presenting, right?

That's how it once worked. And now I find myself consciously, you know, let's go to the meeting and I'm gonna say about 5% and you are going to say about 95. and that's working. And I'm, um, amazed actually, um, at how far all these folks have come and how they found their voice and their confidence and, you know, their abilities in the same way that I did.

Uh, perhaps I did it with not quite as much, um, support at the time. So I'm happy to provide the support to these, um, to these young architects. Um, yeah, and see them grow perhaps faster and further, uh, than I was able to. That's

Dan Ryan: awesome. Yeah. Support men, uh, mentorship, um, growing leaders. I think it's something that we all can benefit from and learn from.

Um, and thank you for sharing. Um, if people wanted to learn more about you, Scott, or sb, like what's the best way for them to take that first step and break their inertia? ,

Scott Lee: well re reach out for sure. I mean, it's like, don't sit there and go, yeah, maybe I should reach out to that guy and then don't do it. I mean, just do it.

And, uh, the easiest avenue to, to get to me, I think at, you know, for this particular topic would be through LinkedIn. Um, and many people do, you know, I've got high school students who are like, you know, kids or friends of mine, oh, my team wants to be an architect. I'm like, okay, that's great. Your kids should call.

Um, but you don't call me and arrange a meeting with your, you know, so, and, and they do. And so I've had, you know, college students and high school students and um, you know, coming into the office and, you know, as much as they might want to talk to me, I oftentimes will. You know, speak to them for a while, but then talk to someone who is, has more recently been in, in architecture school, you know, not 30 years ago, but maybe three years ago.

Um, and it's been great. It's been super fun and we're really proud of our, our culture and our office and having, you know, high school students or college students into our office to see. How excited they are to see, wow, this is like the real world. I mean, I've been in, in, you know, classrooms and talking about what architecture may look like and feel like, but wow, now I'm in an office and look at how fun and exciting and energetic it is and, and you know, to see people really complete that idea, that thought about wanting to be an architect.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. And, and I bet it also resonates with you because you remember when you were that and you had that excitement.

Scott Lee: Yeah. Right. No, when I was, when I was in high school, you know, and, and wanted to be an architect. I said, God, I really wanna go and like work for an architect. So I got the back when there was these things called Yellow Pages.

I got this like the yellow page and I, I called all the architects in my, my town lived in San Mateo. I called these architects and I'm like, yeah, hey, am I in Scott? I'm like a junior in high school and I wanna come and. I can just come and work for free just to kinda just get it and see it, whatever, and people are like, no, no, no.

And so this one company said, um, yeah, that'd be great. You know, we're just changing offices and you can come in and help, but we want to, you know, we'll actually we'll pay you. I'm like, oh, great. Better. And so I, I get there and, you know, I'm painting things and whatever, but eventually I kind of got in there and I got to draw something and I got the letters and things and, uh, it was great.

And I, and I want to be able to provide, you know, that. Um, opportunity for, for young people to, you know, see it and maybe they won't like it, and maybe that's the best thing. They'll come in and be like, you know what? I don't wanna be an architect. Oh, great. Then just don't waste your time anymore. Go, you know, go to med school, but there's no point in going to like four or five years of architecture school only to then find out that you actually hate the profession.

So like, let's.

Dan Ryan: Or maybe they want to go design oil rigs or something like that. Something, or like refineries, some crazy engineering degree. But yeah, I often find that sometimes experience of things you don't want to do, have more, a more profound impact than experiencing what you enjoy doing because it like, It makes you take that right turn, like, oh wow, let's get away from that and see what this new endeavor may be.

Scott Lee: Um, that's the same, that's the same interaction that oftentimes we'll have with our clients, where, you know, we say to them, look, um, it's okay to not like it. Um, because if you don't like it and you tell us that you don't like it, at least we, we. And we've got thick skin. I mean, having been an architecture school and architecture for so long, I mean, not everyone likes what you do and it's a very iterative process.

But to find out what clients don't like or what brands don't like or what communities don't want, um, it makes the job of finding out what they do want that much easier. So, you know, it's a pro, almost a process of elimination. I completely

Dan Ryan: agree. And again, that's just great screening, but. Scott, I wanted to just say thank you for your time.

I mean, I've enjoyed this conversation so much and I know our listeners will all benefit from it. So just I want to express my heartfelt gratitude and appreciation and thank you. No, you're very welcome.

Scott Lee: It was enjoyable. It was very fun to, I don't get a chance to talk about these things very often, so it was fun to, um, to share those with you.

Great questions.

Dan Ryan: Oh, thank you. And, uh, and I don't, I'd be remiss without thanking our listeners, Hey, everybody, um, without you guys, this wouldn't be going and we keep growing every single week and it's very humbling, but it must mean we have great guests like Scott and so many others on that you all wanna learn from.

So if this changed your mind on, or made you think differently about how to define hospitality or create hospitality or design, please pass it along to a friend. Um, it's all word of mouth. So thank you everyone, and we'll see you next.