Defining Hospitality

Dan Ryan: Today's guest has a reputation as a highly creative and service oriented design leader. She has a long history of helping lead design firms to success, from a working designer to design director. To managing principal and to owner. She understands it all and gets it done with a smile.

And I can attest to that.

Alisa Chodos: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: She has a wealth of experience, often acting as advocate for the client in making their visions come to life. She's the managing principal at K& A Design in Los Angeles. Ladies and gentlemen, Elisa Chodos. Welcome Elisa.

Alisa Chodos: Hi, Dan.

Dan Ryan: Wow, you made it so easy for me to do that. And I, I think it's because of...

Our long history together. I know that, um, you've been on, you've been an entrepreneur and I think I first met you when I was probably 26, 27, I think 26, because I had just gone out and started my first company. Um, selling furniture to hotels and you were working at Sheryl Rowley. And I remember that those projects with Sheryl and Kimpton way back in the day was when I got my first shot.

And, uh, so I'm always eternally grateful for that. And you and Sheryl and the whole team from there. And it's been like a nice diaspora from there of amazing people all over. And just so everyone else knows, when I was 19, I think that was in 1995 or six, I got my first shot working at HBA in the hotel design world.

And you also got your first shot working in design at HBA or Hirschbedner way back in the day as well. Um, so with that, cause I think we have a lot to dig in here. Just as far as story and origin and, and path. Um, how do you define hospitality and what draws you to hospitality?

Alisa Chodos: Well, first of all, I always think of Howard and Michael when I think of that because... I was 23 when I started at HBA and I was there as a baby designer and left as a senior designer many years later. Um, we're in the business of service and I really believe that, design is theater. Howard, uh, kind of drilled that into our heads.

We're a backdrop for wonderful things to happen between people, for connections, for experiences. And, um, It is everything from creating a really beautiful, comfortable, interesting, um, unique property to finding the right plugs, placing the right plugs for people to have connectivity and everything in between.

It's a... It's a, uh, combination of design, um, housekeeping, general management, you know, it's, it, we are really a big team and without all of those components, it really just wouldn't work.

Dan Ryan: I totally resonate with that. And on a funny note, like, what do you think Howard would say with the number of plugs that are required in a room today?

Alisa Chodos: He'd scratch his head for sure, walk around scratching his head, yeah, he would just say what is this? That's

Dan Ryan: Another funny thing is, when I was an intern at HBA, I worked for so many of the designers there, but one of them was Kirk from K& A, Kirk Nix, and I just have such incredible memories of him there, and I just love how, I don't know if he was there when you were there originally, but how all these paths just keep kind of coming back in this double helix of, uh, Awesome people with great DNA.

Alisa Chodos: It's a really small business, and that's what you learn. Um, you're always going to meet someone at another firm if you last long enough. And Kirk and I have been friends for about 30 years. We met at Design One when I was a vice president of design there, and he was their, you know, star designer. And, um, we've been friends ever since.

And he is extremely talented, but mostly he's hilarious. And, uh, larger than life. So, um, it's, he's a lot of fun to work with.

Dan Ryan: I would agree on all of those points. Um, definitely larger than life. Um, so coming back to your journey, I know in so many of our interactions over the years and just talking, um, I've just always been struck by how you... A lot of people like to keep things and their experiences very close to the vest and maybe not be as open to sharing.

But I've always... I've also been struck by how you go out of your way to shorten other people's journeys by sharing your experience. And I feel like that's really what I love so much about these conversations, because What gets me about it every day is I get to help shorten other people's journeys by having these conversations, sharing learning, experience, making furniture, um, solving problems, and I want to, like, with that in mind, where do you think that comes from with you, and do you have any examples of Like, why that's what gets you up every day.

Alisa Chodos: Wow. First of all, I'm touched. And secondly, I've never really thought about it in those terms, but I'm guessing that it's because I'm the eldest of five. And, um, we're 10 years apart, me and my baby brother, and we range in between. And I think that as the eldest kid, that's kind of what happens. But really more than that, I think sharing makes me feel good.

I, I told you this before. I don't want to die with all this information that I've gained the hard way. Um, I've made mistakes. I've done a lot of things I've done. Billions of dollars worth of design in the last 45 years, and I've just learned a lot and I've, I've put myself in a position to learn a lot.

Um, I, I feel like, um, I'm not really learning unless I'm challenged and a little bit scared. And if I, and I'm. So, um, I really like sharing and mentoring. I think, um, it's important to pay it forward. I don't feel jealous of the information that I've learned. I really feel generous about it. And I love to watch.

The people around me in my various teams grow in front of my very eyes. It's very much like raising a kid. I know you've had that experience, so, you know, you just feel so great when you see them become independent and move away from you a little bit. And to be able to spread their own wings, it really, it's just so heartwarming on a very personal level,

Dan Ryan: and I hear you on being, well, I, I can't imagine being the youngest of five. That's a lot.

Alisa Chodos: I'm the eldest of five.

Dan Ryan: Oh, you're the eldest. Okay. Well, either way, eldest or youngest.

Alisa Chodos: have the scars to show it.

Dan Ryan: Okay. Sorry for mishearing you. Um, so as the eldest of five now, okay. So I get it as far as sharing. and helping your, your younger siblings and nurturing them.

Um, outside of the family and in the work world, I know you mentioned Howard and Michael. Are there any other leaders along your path who really opened up your eyes to the importance of paying it forward, as you said?

Alisa Chodos: You know, honestly, I don't think that's everyone's forte or their interest. I think the design business is really hard, and anybody who tells you it isn't, they're just, they aren't, they're not in the business, you know? Um, from getting the work done, meeting the standards, meeting the codes, making it beautiful, making, hoping to make a fee.

You know, trying to meet your deadlines, um, trying to get more work. It's not really, um, high on people's list. And I never did have a mentor. So, um, I, I can say though that Lisa Janigan at HBA spread her wings out and took me in. I will not know why till the day I die, but she really, um, Um, was very kind to me that way.

And if I got really scared and I was getting ready to do an install, she'd drive me around the block in her little car and tell me, don't worry about it. It's the stuff you haven't even worried about that you need to worry about. So you just let it go. You have flop sweat. And, um, so really in my life, she, she was someone and is still someone very dear to me, but, um, generally speaking, I just became a student.

And that's how I learned. You know, to, to move through space. Um, one of the other things that really helped me, and I think it's a little bit rare, I was very fortunate and I'm also, um, I'm a very analytical person. I'm from a family full of doctors. My dad was one of five, they're all doctors. And I was expected to be a doctor.

I was pre med through school. I would minor in art. Um, and so I have a very kind of. analytical approach to design, um, the basics. And I don't really feel challenged unless I'm doing something that's different. So I'm not, that's not to say that I would tell anyone to continue to, you know, job surf, but, um, As soon as I understood what the program was at HBA, and I was there for eight or nine years, and I went from baby designer to senior designer and did their, one of their biggest jobs, um, with the biggest budget at that time in the world, um,

Dan Ryan: Which one was that?

Alisa Chodos: it was the Conrad Hilton in Towers.

It was 3, 000 rooms that they turned into 16, 1, 650 rooms. Um, it had 153 room types before computers. It was something. Um, and when I finished

Dan Ryan: And where was it?

Alisa Chodos: Chicago.

Dan Ryan: Oh, oh, okay. That one. Got

Alisa Chodos: And I could, I could look down the hallway and see my future in front of me and it made me uncomfortable. I just, I wanted to do something as much as I really loved it there.

And we can talk about HBA then it was, it was something, it was really something. Um, I really felt like I had to throw myself out of the nest and do something different and I started to do design consulting for every office in town for probably about 20 years.

Dan Ryan: That was on your own. So, so you took the entrepreneurial stuff. And I think what's really What's really cool about your journey also is you worked at a big firm, you went out on your own, you started working at another, another big firm, successful firm, went out on your own, and now back to, uh, yeah, and then now working at another big firm. And I don't know, I just feel like that's another thing that I'm so intrigued with. with you about is that that entrepreneurial bug, but also working in these really incredible large firms and navigating them and, and helping, I don't know, like nurture and raise those next, um, the next bench of leaders coming into, coming into the game.

Alisa Chodos: It's, it's been a, it's been a path, but if you live long enough, you'll see many things, you know, I, um, one of the things I really learned, um, as a design consultant was everything from how to work a Xerox machine and, um, 10 different offices to, um, how teams work to the fact that the personality of the owner is definitely creates the culture of the office to, um, what's the best way to document a project?

What's the worst way to document a project? I learned about business, how to carry myself in business. Those are the things that you don't learn when you're Um, in school, and maybe even when you stay in one firm. Um, you know, you should stay 10 years. You should learn what you need to learn. You should be classically trained and flex your muscles and do all that stuff.

But, you know, really, I was just doing the work, Dan. I, I was a consultant. I had little kids. I wanted a little bit of flexibility. There were no consultants then. There were very few. You couldn't even write off your space like you can now where it's, you know, there's all this remote work. So, um, it was a, it was a very, it was in retrospect, it was entrepreneurial, but at the time I was just doing the job that was in front of me and I was working at Barry Design and Larry Lee and Wimberly and, um, Cheryl Rowley and, um, God, I, you know, Michael Smith and you name it, I was doing it.

Just taking the next job and trying to do my very best. And, and yeah, I did, I did get to mentor a lot of people and work with a lot of people, which to me is the most wonderful part of this, this business we're in is the teamwork.

Dan Ryan: And just from that, like, like pantheon of names that you just dropped there, the people that you would have learned from, I mean, you can't imagine or create. A better graduate school, if you will, right? I mean, just everything. And then I know you're saying it wasn't really entrepreneurial. You're just doing it, but it a hundred percent was in my opinion.

And it was also cool. Cause like you had, you had two kids and you're just. You're creating your own path and your own future by taking that step. And I know we were talking about it a little bit earlier, but that vision of, uh, the girl in front of the bull in, uh, down on wall street, that the big sculpture.

And I just see you just, uh, I dunno, trailblazing forward and learning as much as you can. And now in a place of paying it forward.

Alisa Chodos: Well, um. You know, it's interesting because when I first started, there were not very many women who, or anything other than, um, jewelry, you know, to the design process, we were all working behind the scenes really hard, but to actually get up and present in front of a men. You know, a bunch of men in suits in a, in a conference room somewhere, you know, there was nobody to show you how to do that.

And the only models that I had were these, um, cast iron women who were, who were, and I step on their shoulders, frankly, and thank you, but they were trying to be versions of a man and try to, you know, kind of navigate in a, in a man's world. And I remember looking at that and saying, I'm never going to be that person.

I just refuse to be that person. I think there must be a way to have men in business take me seriously and not trade on some other thing. Right. And all I ever wanted to be was older. Cause I thought at 25, I'm, I'm presenting this huge project, you know, and I just want to be older so that maybe they'll, you know, I don't have to try so hard to be taken seriously.

And so, you know, some of it was that, you know, I probably still exist today, but not quite in the same way. It was definitely a man's world. And I was that little tiny thing standing there looking at the bull, but damn it, why shouldn't I? Why shouldn't I be able to have a voice? My mom told me I can be everything and do everything and I believed her.

I now know that that's only partially true. You can be everything. and do everything but not necessarily at the same time.

Dan Ryan: know what? I think you are, uh, You're, you're the OG millennial who gets, who, uh, gets the participation trophy from the parents that say that you can do anything.

Alisa Chodos: I believed I'm hook, line, and sinker. And then I had two kids and I'm like, whoa.

Dan Ryan: So something really resonated with me that you said there is like, you couldn't wait to be older. And I oftentimes in these, um,

Alisa Chodos: here I am, older.

Dan Ryan: and here I am older, but I often ask these questions of, because I learned so much from these conversations, but like, if you could go back and talk to your younger self, what advice would you have?

And I would tell myself that as well, even though starting a company at 26, you know, I wanted it to evolve. I wanted to do my own brand. I wanted to do all this, but I was like, Oh, I can't do it until I'm older. I can't do, I got to keep doing this. I can't do it until I'm older. And that's like inertia. And if I look at my life and I'm not complaining about my life, but if I could look at my life and I say, oh, my gosh, if I didn't say, oh, I need this or this thing has to happen, or I have to be older for, for to affect change, I think I would have shortened my own journey. And, um, I don't have very many regrets in my life, but I do remember there are certain times when I, when I said that same fucking thing to myself.

Alisa Chodos: Yeah, I mean, there are those voices in your head. And, um, Again, my mom used to say many wise things and one that stayed with me is sometimes, sometimes Lisa, you have to stand there on the edge, take a deep breath and jump. And when I was scared, because we're all scared, you know, none of this was free, all of this, you know, kind of challenge that I've posed upon myself. I did that. I would just take a deep breath and jump. And honestly, what would I say to myself? I would say it's all going to work out. It's not going to work out the way you thought it was going to work out. It's going to be some other, you know, just like Lisa Jannigan said to me, it's the stuff you don't worry about that you need to worry about.

So, um, I think it's just really important to do your best always learn from your mistakes and have a great time while you're doing it.

Dan Ryan: Amen to that last

Alisa Chodos: And the fun will show in your, in your design. Ultimately, the fun is what, um, spurs creativity. Um, that's all you can do, you know, and, and just, and I think it's really important to work with young people.

Um, they have fantastic ideas. They're not usually practical, not always practical, but they're fantastic. They're things that I maybe wouldn't have thought of. And when you have two people in a room, they always come up with a better solution than me being in my own head. So I really love the camaraderie and the team, team work that we do.

And, um, I would say that your first idea isn't always your best idea. You got to shake it up. You got to turn the box around. You got to look at it on the diagonal. You've got to, you know, this is, this is fashion, you know,

Dan Ryan: Well,

Alisa Chodos: you got to stay relevant.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. Well, and I think that, um, tapping into fresh eyes. I call it rookie smarts. Sometimes it makes absolutely no sense. Whether it makes no sense or it does, it force it, we're forced to be brought along with it, right? And look at things from a different perspective.

Alisa Chodos: That's right.

Dan Ryan: And then when you take our careers of, you know, doing, I think you said billions of dollars of projects, there's probably been millions of dollars of mistakes.

And I look at all those mistakes as learnings and learnings that I could share with others, much in the same way, um, that Lisa Janigan was helping share with you and to fear the unknown unknowns, like, although you can't even worry about the unknown unknowns because there's a gajillion of them, um, who are some other mentors who, like you said, you stand on the shoulders of, um, that really helped.

shape your worldview and how you nurture the next crop of leaders

Alisa Chodos: well, I think that I've learned from all of them. I, you know, Larry Lee was a, is a wonderful man who, um, was so kind hearted and, um, always let me, was so respectful, always would, I consulted for him for many years. probably 15 years, would always, yeah, Olympic, would always just say, go Alisa, you can do it.

And, um, and Barrett, Bob Barry, Cheryl Rowley, you know, with her unbelievable eye, you know, she, she's, she's someone, you know, force of nature. Um, Just, I think that all of the people I've worked with have really, um, given me a different perspective and, and I will even say some of the younger people I work with, you know, we have, we have some young people here, um, certainly when I was at Studio HBA and Proper HBA.

Some of the young people would really just inspire me. I think that aside from the people in the office, I think you have to inspire yourself. And I think that it's about going back to basics and those are to, the project should have a sense of place to. Always do a design narrative, even if you don't publish it, like, where am I going?

That's my analytical part, but like, where am I going? So that when you get halfway down the, the lane to the project, and you're trying to make a design decision or any other kind of decision, you go back to the basics. Where is it? I, um, so many times I'd wake up in a hotel because I've traveled all over the world for my whole life and go, where am I?

I can't tell where, I can't remember where I am because I've been on the road for 10 days or whatever. And I think now, um, we've come back to this notion that the, the culture should be reflected in the design, the demographic, the historical references, you know, not, not necessarily, um, exact representations of where you are, but stylized versions of those ideas and to have them consistent within a project.

And that necessarily means that every project looks different. And I think that's a really good thing. So you're starting from who, who am I, who's my clientele and what are we trying to say here? And I think it's really helps to have a cohesive project and to keep you fresh and, and, um, and relevant really.

Dan Ryan: Yes. And to teach the new crop coming in, what drafting dots are behind you.

Alisa Chodos: I

Dan Ryan: This is a scale.

Alisa Chodos: can't use the computer, by the way,

Dan Ryan: Oh, oh,

Alisa Chodos: but I always draw it. I have to draw it first.

Dan Ryan: Uh, and then through your career. Like, how many countries do you think you've been in? Because some of those, most of those firms and where you are now, like, the international, um, travel is just beyond.

Alisa Chodos: Beyond. Oh, I, I've been in almost every country. And for a long time, I was more, um, internationally oriented than even American. So like there were, I hadn't been to the South until I was in my, you know, late 20s and stuff like that, where I was traveling to the Far East and I was in, you know, Europe and I was in Mexico or Costa Rica and, but I hadn't been to Atlanta.

It's ridiculous.

Dan Ryan: I still have not slept in two states, one being Alaska and the other being Montana. So I gotta, I gotta check

Alisa Chodos: On your bucket list.

Dan Ryan: I want to go back to Howard Hirsch because when I was an intern there, he was there, his room was there with the ceiling panels removed because he didn't like the ceiling panels.

I remember that very clearly, but I never actually had the pleasure of meeting him because I think he started, he had fallen ill around that time. Um, and I really regret that. I. I don't have many regrets, but I really regret not being able to, uh, to interact with him. I mean, I saw him, but I never interacted with him.

I know you said that he said it's really theater, but walk us through, like, what was your impression of of Howard? Because, like, arguably, you could say that he really, like, created this whole world we all live in, right?

Alisa Chodos: Absolutely. Um, I'm old enough to remember when hotels looked like offices. And that was just the standard. Howard, Howard just blew the whole thing apart. Um, he was He was like my dad's age, so I was really young. And in fact, um, coincidentally, I grew up with his daughter, not knowing that I was working that later on, I'd be working for her father.

So I found out after I'd been there, when his daughter walked in, I'm like, what are you doing here?

Dan Ryan: Which daughter?

Alisa Chodos: Cat.

Dan Ryan: Okay, I don't

Alisa Chodos: Yeah, so, um, anyway, uh, he was kind of an absent minded professor. He was always doing this, you know, and he was always walking around, like, thinking about stuff. He was, he, he traveled to Asia a lot. I worked on the first American hotel in China with him, the White Swan Hotel.

That was one of my very first hotels.

Dan Ryan: year was that?

Alisa Chodos: Oh God, I was like 23. I'm 66 now, so you do the math. Um, and he was really truly a visionary. It, I had worked at a company for about a year and a half before I started at HBA and the difference was remarkable. He, he would, he was thinking like walls in, where's the drama, where's the lighting, where's the, you know, he was just thinking like out of the box, you know, and, um, it wasn't really like where's the sofa.

It's like, how do we create this environment? You know, it blew my mind.

Dan Ryan: I do remember from seeing him in his office over there just did have that very like almost Walter Matthau playing Albert Einstein in whatever movie that was kind of feel.

Alisa Chodos: exactly like that. Uh, he was a wonderful man. And when I left, he was out of town. You know, he had so many offices at that time. Not as many as they have now. They're like 20 something now. Um, but I think there were three or four at the time when I left and I wanted to say something to him, but he wasn't there and I said goodbye to Michael and I moved on to my, you know, consulting business and I saw him at an event later.

Um, I had written him a note thanking him and he came over to me and he threw his arms around me and said, you know, I just, I'm so glad you wrote a note to me because I was really hurt that you left. And that's the kind of man he was, not necessarily how much he loved me, but he loved everybody. And you never would think that he would think of little, little me or that person over there, but he really was a.

A very kind hearted, sensitive man. And then there's Michael.

Dan Ryan: Oh, give us a Michael story.

Alisa Chodos: Oh, Michael, Michael. I'm not going to do that. I love him too much, but I'm not going to do that. Um, but Michael also was a force of nature. That man can sell anything and make, make you have the most fun you've ever had in your life while he's ripping your boards apart.

Dan Ryan: Yes. And making you cry.

Alisa Chodos: No. He didn't make me cry.

Dan Ryan: right. Well, I've seen others cry when he would come in after they'd spent all night on a board and he'd be, What is this shit? And tear it up. And then he just forgets about it and then he loves them the next minute and it's like, uh, that's his creative process.

Alisa Chodos: he's something.

Dan Ryan: Um, I think another thing where you, when you left, I was also, you know, we use that word of like diaspora earlier. I used it, but I'm also just amazed at how from so many of those founding design firms, when, when it was like really like the wild west and everyone was creating and doing these great things and flying all over the world and working on these amazing projects.

Invariably, people wind up leaving, like you. Um, having known many of those founding people of our industry, founding visionaries of our industry, I'm sure, from my perception, I never heard anyone talk crap about anyone leaving. I'm sure there were, there were examples, but it was always something of, um, it was like really supportive.

Like, I wish you the best, like a heartfelt, really honest, I wish you the best and like, let me know how I can help. And I don't know, there was, there's this unusual, um,

Alisa Chodos: Generosity.

Dan Ryan: and support within our world.

Alisa Chodos: It was like graduating HBA school, you know, you know, I, um, obviously there's so many people who graduated from HBA and went and opened their own firms. And in fact, I even opened my own firm a while back. Um, I think that people underestimate just how hard it is to run a business and, and I think, um, The business of design is a completely separate topic.

I found it, I did have my own firm for about five years, and although I loved it, I found it to be very solitary, and that's why I started working at HBA and now I'm here. I, you know, we were a small firm, we did some really beautiful work, and also I was doing the packaging, the billing. the chasing after clients to get paid, the 1099s, the, you know, licking the envelope, and, you know, going out and getting work and, and, and doing all that.

And, um, ultimately, I concluded that that wasn't where I wanted to put my efforts, that I really did prefer being in an office with more people. Um, I'm running the office here, um, and Kirk is a fabulous partner to, to work with. Um, but it is different. I don't, although I worry about all that stuff, it's in a different way.

It's with more support, more people around me.

Dan Ryan: I was like, and talking about the business of design or really starting out in anything, when you're bootstrapping, it's you, you, you become the chef. The waiter and the bottle washer, right? And it's really hard to get past that point to where you can build the team, put out fires, but also nurture and grow the team.

So you're building the next round of leaders. Um, and it's, uh, it's a, it's a hard event horizon to get past. Um, But when it does, it can be quite rewarding and I've seen you do it successfully. And that's, what's also so remarkable about your entrepreneurial journey and now being there with Kirk, um, and to think about her, I know you said he was larger than life and like, he's just such like a, I don't know, just like, like such an incredible, I have such an incredible image of him in my head of like.

Where he came from, what he's doing, the kind of projects and just his, his just amazingness is it, he's just so fricking awesome. Um, what's it like now that you're there helping him run the office and the team and execute on work and like, what's your impression of. of Kirk. How would you describe him to the rest of the world?

Alisa Chodos: well, I adore him, period. Um, my impression of him is he is, um, he's very smart. He's very sensitive. You would maybe never know that, um, because he's so gregarious. He's, um, he's. Wicked good at master planning. Wicked good. I mean, the, the kind of space planning he does is just so inspiring. We're, um, we're a really good team because we're old friends, and I can tell him. You know, and you can say the same thing to me, you know, so we have shorthand between us and we really have a lot of fun. We have a wonderful team here. We have mostly senior designers. Uh, we were able to keep them through COVID, which was not an easy feat. Um, and so we're, um, we all have a lot of fun and we let them go.

We let our designers go and, um, we just kind of keep our eye on the ball and, um, and, um, And I get to do some design work and he gets to do some design work and... It's really a nice, it's a nice group. And actually, when I think about it, I think that I've always been looking for the experience that I had at HBA as a young woman where it was really a studio.

It was so wild. We were killing ourselves working so hard, but we were all young and we were all invested and we were all enthusiastic as the number one design firm in the world as it is. But it had such a, um, an energetic and think out of the box, cutting edge approach to design that I think that in my career, I've been looking for that because you just can't do the work. And be serious every single day. It, it shows in your work, you know, this, I always say to myself as a mantra, this is not the cure for cancer. This is a hotel. Someone's going to redesign in five years. That is not to say that it's not important to me. It is of utmost important to me, but you have to really think about where you fit in the world, you know, and this is a beautiful expression of so much.

Teamwork and effort and ultimately it will be a beautiful space for someone to have a lovely experience in. But we're not curing fans cancer and it shouldn't feel solemn like that. It should feel exuberant and interesting and there should be moments of surprise and discovery. And if you're not enjoying yourself, you can't be in that mindset.

Dan Ryan: And I think that's another good thing of leaders that I've experienced and even worked for in our industry, where if you're working all night or you're actually moving furniture down a hallway to make the install work and everyone's kind of spread super thin, really stressed out. I think I've taken away from, and I was actually just talking about this at the lodging conference the other day, but it's like this ability.

And I'm not as good as others. but it's this way when everyone's kind of at their limit to inject some kind of levity and make everyone laugh,

Alisa Chodos: that's

Dan Ryan: for drinks, whatever, like,

Alisa Chodos: That's correct.

Dan Ryan: yeah. So, and with Kirk, it's like this real gift where he'll get everyone to laugh. He'll laugh. Everyone will relax, but then they maintain their intensity.

And I think that's like an incredible gift is a. As a leader, as a coach, as a, as anything. And I feel like there are many of those folks, jewels within our, within our world.

Alisa Chodos: you know, I think the hospitality group is the best group ever. I mean, they're, I'm sure you've experienced this. I have colleagues and friends I've known for decades. Sales reps who I rely on as really part of our team. You know, it's an extension of our kind of nuclear team. You know, it's us, it's the sales.

People, it's the vendors, it's the owner, it's the purchasing agent, it's the operator, you know, you can't do this thing by yourself and who the hell would want to, you know, really? And it, I have just found that the people in this business are so generous and kind hearted and helpful and professional and, um, I think we're really lucky.

Dan Ryan: I do too. I a hundred percent agree. so basically like we've covered a lot of ground, we've covered decades. Um.

Alisa Chodos: Oy.

Dan Ryan: A lot of shared experience and, and intersections along our paths. Um, when you, from where you are right now, and I know you're working on some really cool stuff, um, but as you're looking out to the future, what's exciting, like what, what's exciting you most and getting you out of bed every day?

Alisa Chodos: You know, what gets me out of bed every day is that every project has a challenge, has a set of challenges that I find to be like a puzzle. Um, it's the budget, it's the schedule, it's the location, it's the brand, it's the, you know, it's the team. And each one of those things makes it a different puzzle. And, um, and honestly, Dan, you know, my kids, when they were younger and they were trying to figure out what they wanted to be when they grew up, you know, I mean, I was supposed to be a doctor.

So what the hell do I know? I have the black sheep of my family. Right. Um. I said, I thought about it long and hard. And I said to them, think about what you think about and that's what you should do. And that's what I did. So I think about this. Like I'm going to hang up with you. I'm going to go out there and I'm going to be looking at some thing.

And it doesn't even have to be a building or whatever it could be. a leaf that falls on the ground or some, some shadow or some something. And it's what delights me and interests me. So I think that I don't even need to create anything. It's there. You know, it's just what I think about

Dan Ryan: Yeah. And it's what you're open to.

Alisa Chodos: what I'm open to.

And I think in this business, you have to be very detail oriented. Or you really just shouldn't be in the business because it's just too hard. Everything is details, you know, from design to specs to drawings to all that stuff. So I am, I am that way. And I think everybody in this office is that way as well.

Dan Ryan: One of the things that I love talking about that because it's like really in the passion and purpose kind of world. Um, but for me, I'm always trying to think of there's a better way to do something that we're already doing there's and it's always this constant tinkering. It can annoy people and we have to be able to compartmentalize things because everything.

Can't change all the time, but because whatever has gotten us to where we are now, whatever shoulders we're standing on and from the past, that's great for where we are now, but it's not going to get us to where we are in the future. Stakeholders, clients, guests, um, needs. They're always changing. So we may have like a really dialed in detail oriented system, but we always have to be reinvigorating and relooking at it.

Getting those fresh rookie eyes on it and looking at it from another, um, from another angle, because everything is always changing.

Alisa Chodos: Yeah. And you want to embrace that change. I think one of the things that I learned when I was consulting, things that I just didn't even know I was learning. Um, I do think I know How to really write a spec, you know, cause I was at so many places where the vendors would be calling, asking for information.

And you'd be like, well, if you'd written the spec, right, it wouldn't be happening. And there's that version of. of everything. You know, where you are constantly reinventing the wheel. Um, we actually are in the process of, of standardizing everything. I'm, the whole team, that's our whole business plan for this year is to try to figure out a way to do it better, to do it, So not just so that we make more money, of course we'd love that, but to make it easier on our designers, to make it clearer for our vendors, to make it, um, less, to expend less effort, you know?

And I think if you, if you re examine your process every couple years, it's a really good thing.

Dan Ryan: I totally agree. Get all the dust out of there. And then also you just find like standards and processes that served us

Alisa Chodos: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: ten years ago. They're still in there. And if you really follow those processes and standards, It's quite limiting because you can't take things different ways because of new materials,

Alisa Chodos: Right.

Dan Ryan: new methods of construction, new, new everything.

And I think it's really important to work on that. It's tough, but it's, uh, it's

Alisa Chodos: It is tough because you really want, your mind wants to stay in the, the path that you've traveled and, um, you really have to be committed to going off that path.

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

Alisa Chodos: Not easy sometimes.

Dan Ryan: No, definitely not. And, uh, it is worthwhile doing every couple of years. And I think we should all, like, schedule that in there. Take stock, relook, get the cobwebs out.

Alisa Chodos: Mm hmm.

Dan Ryan: so going back to when you were in UCLA, and I know you kind of touched on this, but I love asking this question again. Um, if you were, if, if the Elise I'm talking to right now were to magically appear into your...

Recently graduated, just going to start working at HBA as a baby designer. What advice do you have for yourself now?

Alisa Chodos: You know, I would say... You don't need to worry so much. I think I did worry a lot as a young person about trying to, I mean, I think I was confident in my decisions, but not always completely confident in my ability to negotiate the business world. And, um, I think I would say, you're going to learn a lot about that.

You'll be fine. You know, you're going to make a lot of stupid mistakes like we all do, but, you know, they don't teach you how to deal with, uh, A really difficult client or the wife of the owner who comes in and all of a sudden has a voice or you know, not getting paid and you have to go chase that person or how to bring work in.

I think I would say you will bring work in . It will. It will. You know, it's all gonna work out that specifically, think. I would say. You're gonna grow and it's gonna be okay.

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

Alisa Chodos: Little by little, one foot in front of the other.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. And don't wait until you're older. Just keep putting one foot in front of the

Alisa Chodos: I wasn't gonna wait. I just wished that I. I, I thought in my mind that if I were older, I'd, they would, I would have more of their attention. I wouldn't be just this cute little young thing, you know, um, as we all were once. But I would also say to myself, here I am, I'm 66, I'm an old bag, and I'm still designing, and I'm okay.

You know, I'm still relevant. I still work really hard to stay, you know, up on things. I, I talk to my kids. I talk to everybody else's kids cause I find them all to be fascinating. And if you, if you keep your eyes open and you really have a sense of curiosity, you're going to be all right.

Dan Ryan: I totally agree. And don't worry about those unknown unknowns as Lisa Janigan would

Alisa Chodos: Don't worry about those unknowns. Cause

they're going to bite you in the ass anyway. So you may as well just, just put a smile on and keep moving.

Dan Ryan: A hundred percent agreed. well, I thank you for your, I don't know, perspective on everything because I didn't think about that limiting belief I had of myself of just, I'll wait till I get older. And, uh, I think that there's something really in that and that there's always a way to create the future that we want.

And even the present that we want, because we all have choice. We all have the ability to create our own future.

Alisa Chodos: Yeah. I think, I think that if you see the goal ahead of you and you keep it in mind, you'll end up there. You don't have to be older to end up there. The future's now.

Dan Ryan: The future is

Alisa Chodos: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: Even with all the extra plugs that would probably make

Alisa Chodos: Who needs all those plugs? I mean, really, who needs all those plugs?

Dan Ryan: I do, because I have so much shit when I travel now. Gotta plug it all in. well this has been awesome. Like, Alisa, if people wanted to learn more about you or K& A, how can they figure it out?

Alisa Chodos: Elisa at knadesign. com.

Dan Ryan: Wonderful. And I'll, we'll put up the website as well. Um, I've really enjoyed this. I've loved... Actually stepping back and thinking about our path. I know I started out in California, moved to New York, saw you even less, so much less than I would when I was out there. Um, but I don't know. I feel like we both always light up whenever we see each other.

So I'm excited to see you again soon. And I thank you wholeheartedly for your time and sharing your experience so that other people, whether you know them or not, can take a step onto your shoulders.

Alisa Chodos: I, I look forward to that. Love

you.

Dan Ryan: love you too. And thank you. And also thank you to all of our listeners. Um, without you, we wouldn't be here talking to Elisa and learning. Um, so thank you. And please, if this impacted your idea of what hospitality is or hospitality design, please pass it along because we grow by word of mouth and without you, we wouldn't hear from Elisa.

Thank you all.

Alisa Chodos: Thanks, Dan.