Defining Hospitality

Dan: Okay. Welcome everyone. Uh, today's an incredible milestone. It's our 150th episode and I've had so much fun and learned so much over the past two and a half years talking to these amazing guests. And I think one of the driving factors that keeps me going is you, the listener. Um, I know that is because, um, As much as I'm learning and as much as my curiosity is satisfied by learning about these journeys of these incredible people, um, I just see how it impacts and inspires all of you, uh, through conversations in person, emails, phone calls, text messages, um, and it's just great fuel to keep me going.

So I'm just happy. And like honored to be able to have these conversations. Um, as we look forward to the next year and a half or 150 episodes, we're going to do some cool new evolutions as we continue to evolve. And, um, I don't know, I'm excited to share those with you too. So without further ado, let's get into the 150th episode.

Today's guest is a designer whose work has shaped some of the most iconic skylines in the United States. He's a multifaceted designer who excels at real estate, Design, development, and interior design. Some of the most iconic projects he's worked on include 157 in Manhattan, Central Park Tower, One Manhattan Square, and the Lucida.

He works at the intersection of design, new development, and real estate. He's the chief design officer at Extel. Ladies and gentlemen, Roy Kim.

Roy: Thanks for having me, Dan.

Dan: Well, I think the thanks actually has to go to you because thanks for having me in your home and like, I'm so glad that we're here at One Manhattan Square because so many of the things that we spoke about and what makes XTEL unique and I think the superpowers that you bring to the table of merging real estate, multifamily, luxury and, and hospitality.

I just walked through at one Manhattan square and got to experience

Roy: is

Dan: what hospitality is and how that translates to multifamily. Now you're doing a lot of hotels. Um, but I was really struck at how, and I'm very curious about how much hospitality Has influenced XTEL and changed the trajectory of what XTEL has, like the path it's on and where it's gone.

So as we, I want to kind of like dig into that, but as we get into it, how do you define hospitality? What does it mean to you? Oh,

Roy: um, this is like your, you know, how Oprah always asks about spirituality, right, on her podcast. So, hospitality to me has two pieces to it. It's, service. There's a service component and um, a spatial component. And, um,

Dan: some ways the

Roy: In some ways, the service component is more important than the spatial component.

Despite the fact that I'm a designer, um, I think the service and the way that you authentically show that you care for somebody is, is, can be incredibly, powerful. And one example of that is, I've been really fortunate to travel extensively in my lifetime and, um, I went to this place, uh, called Ananda.

I don't think I told you about this. Ananda in India. It's up in the Himalayas. It's near the birthplace of yoga. It's just, it's sheer physical beauty is kind of overwhelming. It's also ranked as one of the best spas, wellness retreats in the world. And I was super sick when I got there. And it's not, I would say it's not, if you ranked it in terms of design, um, you know, prowess, it's not the most beautifully designed hotel.

It is beautiful. And, and there are some colonial buildings on, on site there. It's at the top of the mountain. There's monkeys, there's, you know, uh, forests everywhere. Um, so it is beautiful. Um, and MacLemore actually had this, whatever year MacLemore performed at the Grammys, he had just performed and he had just arrived, um, because I missed the Grammys performance, but I saw him come on this little golf cart.

They take you around on golf carts, but when I arrived, I was so, so sick. Um, I had managed to stay Well, throughout my trip to India and somehow at the end, I kind of let my guard down. It's super sick. They cared for me as if I was family. It was so touching. They would watch and see what I wanted to eat.

The chef, they do this for everybody, not just, you know, not just because I was sick, but, um, they will come and consult with you and ask, um, what do you like to eat? Do you want to eat Western food? Do you want to eat Indian food? And then just by interviewing you and getting to know you, they will make recommendations about what they think is best for your, um, Makeup, right?

Your constitution. It was really an eye opening experience in hospitality.

Dan: But it's surprising to me, but actually it's not really surprising. Like you've been working in the world of hospitality and design for a really long time. You're an expert at what you do. You have these superpowers. And I think what is striking me about what I'm hearing there is we are all set in this way that we do what we do, how we think, how we meet others where they are.

Um, But it's always evolving because needs and people are always evolving. So it's really interesting to hear that, like, you're on this amazing career path, you know what you're doing, you're a leader, but then you have this experience that really changes your trajectory as well.

Roy: it, you know, in Asia and especially Southeast Asia, the level of hospitality is already really at a different level, but having, you know, we, we talk a lot about authenticity and I'm actually moderating a panel on authenticity at HD. Um, but you know, what is authenticity? And in our corporate structures, I think very often, um, people are just kind of reading off a script and doing what they're supposed to do or filling a job function.

Whereas in some of these places, it really feels just so genuinely authentic and like it's really coming from the heart and that, that's really touching. And I think that's what people are craving more of now in the world. The world is, is, is just becoming more unsafe, more, um, adversarial, more, you know, we just had an earthquake today, more unpredictable.

So yeah, I think it's, people are craving authenticity and, and

Dan: think it's people creating authenticity and realness. that he said he was amazed by humanity. I'm going to have to find it and put it in the show notes, but it's he was amazed by humanity because they're always at their best when they're at their worst.

Roy: Oh, interesting.

Dan: And that, that really resonates with me because I believe in like this inherent goodness of all people. And to hear about your, You being at Ananda and you're at your worst, right? I can't even imagine how sick you were between altitude and food and all the other things going on. They met you where you were.

Roy: Right. That is

Dan: And you learned from them.

Roy: Say it again? We're at our best when we're at our

Dan: Humanity or humans are at their best when they are at their worst.

Roy: It sums up the human experience, right? Yeah.

Dan: But I'm also, I'm really intrigued too by how, you know, you're, you're at your worst, but you also, you know, you're surviving at this really luxury spa. Uh, but it seems like that experience changed how you do what you do and how you inspire others to get the best out In terms

Roy: what we do, so we now have a hotel operations group within our company headed by Michael Lindenbaum. So we're all very excited about that. So prior to that, I would say that we kind of set up intentions, right? Physically we set up intentions. So, um, but, you know, then operationally how that gets managed is obviously really crucial and critical to the final experience.

But the way that we do that is, so I am really glad that we met here and that you were able to see this space because this site was just a raw lump of clay when we started. And so it was the old Pathmark site. It was a gigantic site, we had no height restriction, um, and we knew we wanted to, uh, we had to actually lift the towers up because Hurricane Sandy had happened, and so we weren't allowed to have a lot of the MEP down in the flood.

So we had this huge podium of amenity space and we already wanted to, um, have a lot of amenity space so that you could entice people out to this side of Manhattan. You know, we're kind of on the fringe here. And we've done this already on Riverside Park. Um, we did a project on the Boulevard with the Alden, and this was in 2008, where we had 40, 000 square feet, and I had hired Roman and Williams to do that amenity package, and that was the largest amenity package in any condo at the time.

So I guess we've always been a bit ahead of the curve in terms of the amenities and the wellness, um, programming. Um, so when we did this building, we had a gigantic, um, space, and so we really, um, You think about.

Dan: um,

Roy: First of all, what's not in the hood is a variety of different factors. What's missing in the neighborhood that you might want, right?

So, gyms are actually not that close by here, so obviously, and fitness is important to everyone.

Dan: Um,

Roy: In terms of adding a spa and wellness component, we knew we wanted to do that from the beginning. I'm a big swimmer. Gary Burnett, my boss, is a big swimmer as well, or he enjoys swimming. Um, So we knew we wanted more than one pool.

So we started out with three. We have two right now. Um, we have a significant spa wellness program with a cold plunge, infrared sauna, steam room, hamam, um,

Dan: that's amazing.

Roy: hot tub, beautiful treatment rooms that with marble and onyx that look like a five star hotel, amazing masseuses that come from five star hotels. So the whole thing really does feel like a resort.

Um, And we looked at what spaces could fit what, uh, programs and what, what amenities. So we, uh, one of the first things that we actually programmed was the library that you saw with that gigantic fireplace, the long linear fireplace. So that's just a subterranean room with no views that, uh, is really warm and welcoming and inviting.

It really makes you want to be in that room. Um, I really do need to give props to Meyer Davis who designed,

Dan: I was just going to ask. Our mutual

Roy: friend, uh, Gray Davis and Will Meyer, um, they really did such a good job. And you can see here within the apartment, uh, the apartment interiors, but also the amenity spaces that I remember when they first showed us.

The images for that library with that gigantic fireplace and the stone and the variety of seating. I think one of the things that they're really good at is They're serious designers that don't take themselves seriously. And so as a consequence, they create spaces that have a gravitas, but that also don't take themselves too seriously.

It's kind of like they both are. So you feel that that all throughout the space, it really feels elevated and like a five star experience. But you can be here in jeans, you can be here in sandals, you can be here, just be yourself, right? And I think that that is communicated through the design.

Dan: and I, I kind of want to go out on a limb here, um, because when did Gary Brennan found exile?

Roy: Oh, that must have been, I think, in the 80s. It's been around for a while, but just not in the, um, you know, it hasn't been as big as it has been. I

Dan: But it was always residential historically.

Roy: residential from the beginning. Yeah.

Dan: And just experiencing the hospitality, like I was just talking to someone yesterday, um, who's a real estate finance guy who specializes in hospitality. And he was saying every office space now, every residential, every, every piece of the real estate. Pie has a hospitality component, but he said, but what they don't understand is it's not just fixtures and finishes and a place to lounge.

There's a whole people interpersonal component that so many assets are missing. They call it a hospitality space, but it's not. Um, Gary has transformed the New York city skyline with these iconic residential towers. And then Hospital hotels, uh, mixed use buildings as well. But walking through here, which was the construction was started in 2013 or 14.

Roy: Yeah.

Dan: Hey, the first hotels were slightly before that. How do you think the hotel experience for Gary or the hospitality experience transformed just looking at this project in particular, and, but not just this one, but all of the other large scale. Skyline transforming projects that he works on. How does it inform, how do they inform each other?

What did they, what did he learn from doing hotels?

Roy: Oh, I see. Um, oh, that's an interesting question. Our, I think, so our first two hotels were the Park Hyatt, um, and then also the Hyatt Times Square. I can't remember what, uh, it's still a Hyatt, but I can't remember what level. Um, So the Park Hyatt, believe it or not, existed in the old Stanhope Hotel on 5th Avenue in the 80s, um, and so when we converted that to condos in kind of 05 06, um, um, He promised them that he would give them a prime location in our 157 building and he, you know, followed through on that promise.

That, that is also one thing that Gary's good at. If you, he's a handshake guy. If you make a deal with Gary, he's gonna follow through on that. So, um, that's how we started the Park Hyatt. And then because of the experience there, they gave us another hotel. So, um, Um, you know, we were real experts in luxury residential, and I was telling you about the Alden and the amenities there.

We were partnering with a group called La Palestra at the time, a private gym, and we learned a lot from them on what people wanted in the programming there. All of it, um, so for example, at, at the, um, Alden, the gym, when you walk in, it doesn't, you don't just see a row of equipment right away. There's a huge open space with mats and climbing ropes.

And it was all about how they would train people. They, it was a lot about personal training. We had a fantastic pool with natural daylight, all that. We had a rock climbing wall that we, um, I decided let's bring this up into the lobby as a sculptural element and a way to bring light downstairs. So we had all of that and then once we started doing hotels, it's, it, they really started to inform each other.

And the other thing is that, um, We are luxury, but we, not everything we do is five star, but I think that being able to understand what services are at a five star level really helps you at the, the three star, right? And, and vice versa as

Dan: and vice versa as well.

if you were to go back in time before all the ho all the hotel experience, what, what do you think was missing in that?

Roy: In, when we were doing mostly

Dan: residential. Mostly residential. Yeah. Missing

Roy: What was missing in that? Well,

Dan: Well,

Roy: think, One of the reasons why designers are so drawn to hospitality is that you can create a much more robust narrative, right, because in, um, in residential, we're creating the amenity spaces and the apartments, but the apartments are empty and, you know, somebody comes in and they furnish it themselves.

With hospitality, you're creating the entire narrative and the all, every space, you're doing all the artwork, you're doing everything.

Dan: Um,

Roy: We tend to, uh, take things, we tend to elevate things beyond what the brands might even require as a minimum. Um, I don't know if that answers your question.

Dan: It does, but I think where I'm going with it is like, what I'm getting, just sitting here having this warm tea, that's amazing that you made me, and I'm gonna get out whatever it is.

I'm gonna take a picture of that box when before I leave. But just, and the, the candle and just being downstairs in that library, the, the fire and just all the, the pallet and just walking. This is a massive building, everyone. It's so big, but there's this warmth

Roy: That's true.

Dan: that I just, like, when I walk into really lux, luxury, um, residential towers, they're amazing.

They're like almost museums or cathedrals, if you will. But there's like a, they just feel a little sterile and I feel like hospital, but, but again, it's not just the fit and the finish and the palette and the warmth. There's something else that you feel, you feel when you, when you're in there.

Roy: Well, I think a lot of that has to come from the people, you know, the staff, and the quality of the people that work here. Um, I think that a lot of it comes from, you know, I'm not really quite sure how to say this, but it's, even though I'm saying that the services is, it is more important than the physical space, um, because without the service there really is no hospitality, but the, um, As a designer, you know, so I don't really know feng shui at all, um, but as designers, I feel like there is a way that we channel energy in a way, like in terms of, like, when I'm laying out, um, sequences of spaces, it's all about the flow and what you, I'm also thinking cinematically about what you see first and then what do you see next, what do you see, like, it's, it's that sequence.

So. All of that goes into how you feel in a space. Proportions and where the light is coming from, all of that influences how you feel in a space. And I think that, um, that feeling is what really, I think, accomplished designers understand. It's not just, like you said, it's not just about the finishes. It's about, um, The quality of the space and the quality of the space, I think, influences how the energy moves in that space.

And again, not, I'm not coming from a feng shui, uh, point of view because I don't really know anything about it, but I think it's just things that good designers do instinctively.

Dan: it, but I think it's just things that good designers do instinctively.

I wrote down spirituality and you've mentioned something about being intentional. And another thing that struck me before we were recording, you said, um, all creative people, like when creativity is really humming, you're like in your best spiritual place, right? You're, it's like you're connected to the universe.

Right. And there's this, um, and I would just, I would also just challenge and say, it's not just creative people. Everyone has the ability to be creative. tuned in to what's going on. Right. So how like to walk me through that as far as like the intentionality and this idea of being like spiritually connected as you're creating, or as the teams you're hiring create or creating, how do you help them get into that vibration to help them create the narrative after you've, you've done your scene programming.

And how do you get everyone to kind of

Roy: Well, first of all, I think that. I think there's a reason why there is this kind of, um, um, symbiotic relationship between numbers people and creative people because we are channeling, right? Whether, whether you know it or not, if you're good, you know, who's that guy who wrote that book, Flow? Really old, um, he was a Czech guy, I think,

Dan: yeah, and I don't remember, but

Roy: starts with an M, last name is, starts with a C.

Anyway, when you're in the flow, you are channeling, in my opinion, because, um, it's like, People who write songs, people who paint, people who design, um and we've all had that experience of just really being plugged in. Also, when you're in that state, like time doesn't is totally irrelevant, right? You could spend hours and hours on a drawing, um, on a floor plan, on an elevation, um, when you're really feeling it.

You can also feel sometimes when you're stuck, right? And, and that, that, communication is not quite happening. Um, so regardless of kind of what you believe about God or spirituality or whatever about the universe, the information is coming from somewhere I think in any creative process. Um, so I don't know actually how you,

Dan: so, I don't know actually how to promote that. Or, or you just, maybe you're just selecting those people that you know are in the, in that flow.

Roy: That are, I think anybody who's, um, Operating at a, at a caliber where we would hire them. They're clearly operating at that level because their, their work speaks for itself. Right. Yeah.

Dan: has a lot of busyness in their life where we are right now. There's just a lot of busyness. Um, and I think that it's really difficult to remember. And I think what I've experienced in this oasis of a building downstairs is , there's plenty of kind of influence to slow down.

Mm-Hmm. right to take a minute. And I, and just even going down there, there's people just taking those minutes and recharging and re rejuvenating. And I think as busy as we all are, it's really important to slow down and take it all in and kind of like reconnect. Yeah. How do you do that?

Roy: Oh, well the way I do it is I meditate every day and so my meditation practice has just gotten stronger and stronger so I will meditate between 20 and 40 minutes every morning and then on the weekends I try and do an hour and a half

Dan: Um,

Roy: because it's so When you get into that state, like, I don't want to come out of it.

I just, you hit these moments where you just feel bliss and joy. And, um, if I could do it more, I would do it more.

Dan: it more. Um, is there a particular practice of meditation that you're doing?

Roy: Not really, it's, um, I think there is a name for it, but it's basically the one where you just close your eyes and watch your breath, and watch your thinking, and then you just, at a certain point, you experience release, and you're kind of just floating, and that is where the magic is.

Dan: magic is. When did you develop that practice? Did it happen when you were up at the foothills of the Himalaya

Roy: No, it

Dan: Or did you have your practice before you went there?

Roy: It started with TM, because, and that was in 2008, I think. Uh, my husband and I, Clayton, we both went to the TM Center in, uh, Vidae.

Dan: and that's transcendental meditation for those of you that are That's right.

Roy: That's right. And it was great. Um, and I really liked it, but that evolved and that helped me get into meditation because I couldn't get it. You know, I couldn't get the just sitting there and, and especially because I'm so cerebral as, as many New Yorkers are, it was very hard to kind of get into that state.

So repeating the mantra was very, very helpful. But over time, I've just developed my own way of meditating.

Dan: Um, and it's every day, every night,

Roy: Every day? Every morning?

Dan: every morning. Okay. Um, as you're working on these projects, developing and changing skylines, um, what's the most, is there something, is there anything in, in your These transformative projects, like truly transformative projects that you get surprised by on every project.

Is there a moment of surprise in any of the process?

Roy: There always is. Actually, that's a great question because you would think, um, doing luxury, uh, residential, right? Like how many luxury condos can you do and how many luxury kitchens can you design before they all start to look the same? But what makes it interesting is that it's different every single time because the market conditions are different every single time.

It could be a really hot market. It could be a really cold market. Um in this building, for example, um

Dan: buildings.

Um, so one of the things

Roy: One of the things that we do a lot is we scrutinize views and, and view corridors when we're, um, creating buildings. Um, so one of the things I also do is I lay out all the floor plans and then we also lay out all of the marketing plans.

And in this apartment, I, the, um, Furniture layout that you see happens to be exactly what we put on the marketing floor. We, when we bought the apartment, we actually tried a different way. So I was like, no, the original is the best where the bed is all of that. So it matches the exact marketing plan. Um, so, um, The one thing, though, that I didn't realize when we did this project, I kind of wasn't thinking about the views, believe it or not, because you're up here in the apartment, you can see how insane the views are, right?

And they just get better. So, because The, the building is so tall. I was just like, well, of course, they're all, the views are all going to be amazing, but what I didn't understand is that, and, um, part, part of it is because I left Extel in 2014, and then came back. So during that period, if I had still been on the project during that period, I would have looked at every single, uh, view.

Um,

Dan: update.

Roy: But the, the way that the island bows out here, um, and the way that the building is placed makes you feel like you're just floating above the river, which is really sensational. And I've been in many, many buildings in the city. It's one of the perks of this job, both in our projects and in competitors projects.

And you just don't have this view from anywhere else in the city. It's a very special view.

Dan: else in the city.

It's a very special view. You can see the

Roy: You could see the surges coming in. Yeah, 100 percent you would be able to.

Dan: do.

Roy: Yeah, the first week, that first weekend when we were here, um, one of the things you don't realize is that the East River is kind of like a highway for, for aquatic transportation, and I still don't know what it was. There were hundreds, hundreds, I would say easily 500, maybe 700, Ski Doos or Sea Doos, um, in the, the water.

And they were like,

Dan: and going

Roy: were congregating and going down. I know it's kind of gross, right? All that water being regurgitated, but there's the amount of, um, traffic that goes down this, this ripper. It's, it's like a freeway.

Dan: Yeah, it 100 percent is. And I'm just looking out here between the ferries, the barges, um, and the traffic. It's just, it's really amazing. It's like, and it's such a, I don't know, just an opposite to, I'm, I'm envisioning you in the morning waking up and getting into your peaceful meditation with all this insanity going around.

And when I lived in the city, that was, I was very into meditation. Um, And I think that also helped me balance everything out. When I first moved here, um, it was, I don't know, 20, 2005. I like freaked out. It was like anxiety came from Los Angeles. but I developed a meditation practice and I was able to calm and I got into this place where The city just flowed and I, it was a Zen place.

I found coming home from business trips or vacation to the city is very relaxing and it's a really special place to get to when you live in Manhattan or in any really big city, but it's, it's a, it's a real breakthrough and most people would visit. And they're always like, oh, there's so much energy. How do you live there?

And I was like, I actually find it very peaceful.

Roy: I love the energy of New York City. I remember my very first trip to New York when I was in architecture school and I came out of the subway station at Madison Square Park and seeing the Flatiron building and feeling the energy. It was such a visceral feeling that I felt in my chest. I had no idea that I was going to fall in love with New York.

So that was how old was I like 26 or 27? Um, yeah. And up until then, I didn't even think I was really a city person, if you can believe it, because I'm such an urban person.

Dan: Um,

Roy: But that energy is what I remember, and that energy is still here.

Dan: Um. I want to talk more about when you left. You left Extel in 2014. When did you start? 2006. And I love the stories of people who work somewhere, they leave and then they come back. Rockwell has a lot of those and it's really, there's like a, it's a magic that I, that I'm really like awestruck by. And I think that's just a sign of like a really good, you know, Place and good people.

Roy: One thing I will say, so I, when I worked at Element, I advised many different developers. Many, many developers here in New York, Miami, and in L. A. And that was actually a really great experience seeing how things are done in other places so that you can kind of bring the best of ideas from all different markets together.

Um, one thing I will say about Extel, without disparaging any of the other developers, um,

Dan: we have

Roy: We are comprised, we have subject matter experts in everything. We have, within construction, we have MEP experts, structural experts. Um, we just have, also have very, very smart people who are very dedicated. Um,

Dan: how people do this.

Roy: thank you.

And, uh, it's how we get stuff done. Like we, because our teams are actually not that big. If people are always surprised at how few people work in the main office. Um, and it's because we have very, very smart, very dedicated. There, there's, um, a certain type of person, I think that works at Extel and that would be smart, um, experienced, dedicated, um, you know, when.

I remember sitting around the table at some of these meetings and people would, the decision makers, would just not make decisions. Um, and that doesn't happen at XTAL. Partly because, um, Gary makes most of the important decisions, but that's also a good thing because you, you're never, kind of in the dark as to what your next step is, but also because I think we all take our jobs really seriously.

So, um, anybody that's worked with us can tell you that we run very efficiently and we will never be the people to hold up a process. If you send me something to review, I'll review it and it's going to be back with you like within days. Um, so it's, it's,

Dan: it's,

Roy: it's a pleasure working with people that are that smart and dedicated.

Dan: with people that are that smart and that good.

Well, that's a good question

Roy: that's a good question too. So, um, In 2006, so I had just been moved here from the West Coast by the Sunshine Group, and Gary Barnett was my biggest, uh, client. And, um, At the time, his biggest projects were the Altair Towers on the Upper West Side. They were the two tallest towers on the Upper West Side.

And they were a little controversial because of that. Um, and then he was also doing the Orion on 42nd Street. Um, pretty much in Times Square. Um, and that was a runaway success. It was such a success.

Dan: So When

Roy: approached me to, um, work for him, I really had to think hard about it because it never occurred to me to work for a developer, which is weird

Dan: He was my client

Roy: He was my client at the time. So, never occurred to me to work for a developer, was never You know, on my, in my plans, um, didn't know that much about him, but I really liked him. We really clicked. Um, obviously that's why he asked me to come in house. So when I started, he basically told me to create my job description.

And then when I started, I realized like, this is a perfect fit because I've always thought like an owner, you know, um, I think also people who are successful at Extel. I don't think being on the development side is for everybody. It's not, um, you have to be, be able to think on your feet. You have to every like, every day is basically problem solving.

Every day is like, what could possibly go wrong today? And then course correcting. Um, so you have to be comfortable with some level of uncertainty. And, um, there's, it gives the whole. Uh, job description and entrepreneurial kind of vibe.

Dan: And when you say, think like an owner, what does that mean to you?

Roy: also to not waste time, to, like, really, it, it, for, on every level, it's, it's buying a plane ticket, you know, if you can, I, for work I still shop around for, uh, um, plane tickets.

Um, it's, uh, for materials, it's for, for everything.

Dan: So that was when you first met him.

Roy: I think what Gary's so good at doing is really getting deals done. And so that's why, like, for example, in 2008, when everybody else was freaking out and shutting down, we were planning 157.

So we were the first out of the gate. So being able to work, um, at a firm that's visionary like that, I think is, is pretty special.

Dan: Um,

Roy: And the scale that, that we work at.

Dan: I mean, the project, the scale is just, I mean, if anyone looked, took a picture of the New York City skyline from like 2000, 2002, some like early two thousands, and then.

Looked at it now and you could circle the skyline changing buildings that you guys have worked on. It's amazing.

Roy: amazing. We have a model, um, in the office that shows the buildings that we've done and, and it's, it's pretty impressive.

Dan: Wow. Can you, will you take a picture of that and send that to me? I'd love to include that in here.

Um, I'm also intrigued because, okay, so we've talked about Rockwell, how people have left and come back. Um, There's countless, they're not the only one, but they just have a lot, right? It's like

Roy: Well, they have a special sauce there. Yeah.

Dan: And, um, but it also takes a certain, I guess, like as a, as a business owner and entrepreneur, when, when people leave, you know, there's a little, there's, you know, a little heartbreak associated with that, but you know, you also want everyone to, you know, you're a step on their path and you want them to all do what the best that they can do.

And when you say XL has a real, a small team, like how many people are, are in, in the team?

Roy: I want to say, so we're, we're bigger than we used to be, but that's because we have more departments, right? We have, uh, management, building management, uh, division now. We have our own dedicated salespeople. We now have this hotel, um, operations arm. So overall, we're bigger, but the actual HQ, um, where we have development, design, construction, marketing, um, I'm going to guess we have around 50 people, but I'm not really sure. But I think it's around 50.

Dan: that's pretty small for

Roy: It is, for,

Dan: type, the, the scale of projects that you're working on.

Um, as you look at, as you look back on your path, right, with Excel in particular, um, and leaving and coming back, as you look at what's out in the future, like, what's lighting you up the most, like, what do you, what's exciting you the most about what you see on the horizon?

Roy: Um, I would say hospitality. So, we, um, and it's not just because this is a hospitality podcast, but we, We have, so we have a four, four and a half star hotel that's, that will open in a few months in Park City. Then we have two new five star hotels. Um, we have more hotel projects within the city as well.

There's one coming up in Rock Center, uh, just south of Rock Center. We have another one in Times Square. And then we have, um, those ones are in construction now. But then we have, um, other brand new ones that we're starting to design develop. Um, so I'm excited about that, partly because they're at different levels.

They're not all five star. Um, and I enjoy that. Uh, you know, I like,

um,

Dan: said, I think

Roy: think good design should really be at kind of any level, any price point, um, and like I said, I think that being good at all levels like helps you help you designing a five star should help you with the three and vice versa. Um, So, yeah, the, the, the five stars, especially in Park City, I think are exciting.

We also have a, um, A new brand, uh, for a hotel that's more like a four star. Um,

it's a, no, it's a, it's a, it's a major brand. Um, you can't, I don't think it's public yet. Um, but really interesting new, uh, brand, uh, from this major brand. Um, yeah. I hired a firm called PHDS out of San Francisco. They've been really fantastic.

Speaking of, um, being able to design at all levels, you know, three, four, five star, um, they've, they've got that kind of special sauce. Um, so that's an exciting one as well. So there, the, the thing about hospitality, again, just being able to create that entire, uh, narrative. And I think that people. are seeking escape, you know, from the world, from like being able to go out in nature and, and, uh, recharge.

Um, I think hospitality is just kind of more important than, than ever.

Dan: I'm very excited by that, obviously, because this is a hospitality podcast, but I also just think that

the places where Extel has come from and where it's going, um, to hear that hospitality plays an overweight role in that direction is, you know, I don't know, just very reassuring. And I just also think that we need more and I agree. I think people are starved for that. And there actually hasn't been a lot of new development, um, since 2008.

Yeah, there's been a lot, there has been some, but it's not like it was before. And I think cause everyone was shocked from 2008, right? There was not the oversupply that got us into that place in the, in the first place. Um, When you're kicking off a new project, um, hospitality or otherwise, I'm intrigued by the, um, by the 50 people, and I think you said there's a subject matter expert for each category.

How do you, um, when you have that blank piece of paper where ultimate creativity comes out from, or the blank whiteboard where you're starting to program it, how do you, Get all those subject matter experts. You included into a room. Are you in a room and are you whiteboarding it? Are you like, how does that initial, um, collaboration work?

I

Roy: I think it starts off, um, mostly with, like, there's a balance always between the mathematics of a project and then the magic of a project. So, um, we're pretty, um,

Dan: what's the

Roy: Ruthless, I guess, is the word, when we're looking at a site and massing it and, uh, figuring out what's the highest and best use and what's the best way to mass a project and, um, we'll do that with our architects.

And, um, I come in usually when the, um,

Dan: then we

Roy: The overall kind of massing has been set and then we look at finessing all of the floor plan layouts So in the in the hotel whether it's hotel office or or condo And then we have MEP and structure like we all kind of get inserted at the at the right times

Dan: times. And. I love the idea of being ruthless about highest and best use.

So I'm very intrigued by the rise of artificial intelligence and just how people are starting to mess around and use it. And they're creating these artificial intelligent agents where you have a project manager, um, an accountant, a, I don't know, visionary developer. And you can create these three or four different people for a project.

for an event planning or something that people are experimenting with this. And then what I heard about this, when people were describing it, is that these agents that are created are ruthless about maximizing ROI.

Roy: Oh, wow, I haven't heard of this

Dan: Yeah. Uh, yeah, it's cool. Um, and I don't know if it's, um, full, fully out there, but it's, it's definitely in this ideation stages of these AI agents and being ruthless.

Um, give us an example of, Looking at a piece of land and then how, what are, what are some of like the, um,

heated discussions that happen when you're trying to be ruthless to maximize ROI. 157, example.

Roy: maybe I can use 157 as an example. Um, so 157, a lot of people might not know, originally started out as almost a perfectly square site, but we had one holdout, somebody who didn't want to sell, and then when we started the project, then he decided he wanted to sell, but obviously it was too late. So, we had these schemes for a project that was, um, had a really beautiful large footprint.

And so originally the hotel was always at the base and then the condos are at the top. Um, that's

Dan: um,

Roy: because here, you know, the condos sell for the most. So we usually reserve the, um, the condos for the upper floors and it's the reverse in Asia. I don't know why they do that actually. Condos are the lower floors and the hotels are at the top.

It has to do something with zoning or something. Um, it's not just

um, because

the developers are doing that. There's some reason why they're doing it that way. But here it's obviously because of the sales prices. Um, so we already knew that you would walk into the hotel portion, and then we had significant F& B and we had this kind of, um, double height spacing.

You could look down into the basement where there was a gigantic restaurant. And I remembered that that was a really, um, high pushback pretty hard on that and we said New York is just different. So we took them on a tour of, of, um, high earning spaces that were below grade and they got it right. We're like, this is Manhattan.

You can't have daylight and windows on every space. So, um, but then when we had to go to that L shaped, um, I wanted to make sure that the, um, apartment layouts, because, you know, they really drive everything. They drive the economics, um, of a project. That the, um,

Dan: involved in the

labs of the spaces, and

Roy: I really get involved in the interior design obviously like how things look and feel and the materials and all that.

But I'm also very involved in the layouts of the spaces and so that means you know how wide a building is in order to be able to get this kind of, you know, living, dining, and then kitchen, for example, or bedroom, bathroom, and then corridor, that type of thing. So, um, we did quite a few layouts of the, the apartments to make sure that they worked, and then the hotel rooms are a little bit easier because they're, um, uh, deeper.

Um, so it, that, we do that kind of math for, for every project, just to make sure that we're maximizing square footage, and we're not, We never leave square footage wasted. We're always, um, maximizing how much money we're making off of every square foot.

Dan: And sometimes you also have to, in a way or another, just decide, you know, there's

Roy: sometimes you also have to throw away the math and just decide, you know, there's some magic in this layout and, and this is worth doing.

Dan: As you're talking about restaurant below grade in a hotel, my brain is going over to the Moxie East Village

with the, what's it, I forget what it's called

Roy: I haven't been, but I heard, I heard.

Dan: Oh, it's really

Roy: Yeah, I've heard. What's the restaurant?

Dan: I can't remember the name right now, but I was just there. Um, but it's, it's cool. Rockwell did that one actually, yeah.

Um, I'll let you know. I'll try not to tickle the keys while I'm, while I'm here. Um, Okay, so you grew up in Calgary?

Roy: Yeah.

Dan: You went to University of British Columbia.

Roy: Yeah.

Dan: If you were, could you imagine yourself sitting here talking to me then?

Roy: No, not at all. Not at all.

Dan: And the path your life has taken.

I mean, It's

Roy: yeah, it's pretty remarkable. Actually, if I think about it, it is because my so my dad had a grocery store. So I grew up there and you know, I grew up working in the store a lot and we were so we lived in Calgary, but the store was actually in a small town called Airdrie like just north of of Calgary.

Um, um, So, even though we were comfortably middle class, and obviously in Canada, you get a lot for that, right, for being comfortably middle class. I went to great schools, um, but I wasn't surrounded by luxury. I didn't really have that much experience, um, in it. I always had, uh, uh, an affinity for it. Um, I was always very good at space and arranging space.

I could always see space really easily, easily three dimensionally. I didn't realize that was a skill because it was just natural, right? So I didn't realize that that that was something I could monetize. Um, but I remember one of the biggest compliments I got was in my first year of, um, Architecture school at UBC.

So I had actually wanted to study under Patricia Patcow, um, because she and John are like revered architects in Canada. They're not as well known here, but they do amazing work. And, uh, she actually became my thesis advisor and I had her in first year as well. And in my first review, she said something about, you know, it's remarkable, um, the level of skill you have.

Dan: um,

Roy: Considering, like, your lack of exposure to anything good, something like that, it was kind of like a backhanded compliment.

Dan: compliment. Because you're from

Roy: Well, I just didn't, you know, Calgary does not have a lot of architecture to commend it, really. It's, it's a, it's, I mean, now it does. Snowhead has done a library, there's, there's some good stuff there.

But even if you talk about historical architecture, There's just nothing there. It's, it's kind of a wasteland. So, um, there is part

Dan: of what I

Roy: what I do that was just innate, that was kind of in me. And then obviously architecture school brought, brought the rest of that out.

Dan: And I'm actually curious about the, uh, the ability to visualize spaces three dimensionally. Did you have any other, like, neurodiversity or like dyslexia or anything like that growing up?

Roy: I, um, I don't know what you call it, but I sometimes, it's like verbal dyslexia. Sometimes I'll say the opposite thing of what I'm thinking about or, or mean to say. And so sometimes I have to really watch what I'm saying. Um, but it doesn't happen that often. But other than that, not. Oh, I did have a left right thing.

I don't know if that's a thing

Dan: Maybe I'm just intrigued by it because I've talked to a lot of designers and architects and it's, it's amazing to me how many of them are dyslexic or have some other neurodivergent thing where, where in the past, you know, you're 100, 200 years ago, you're, you know, you're. Pushed off to the side, but now there's a way to really lean into that and grow and make, have it be a superpower.

Roy: yeah, yeah, I couldn't uh get left and right correct for many years. Like, I think until I was like six years old or something where I would say right but I would mean left and left and I would mean right. So, I don't know if that's related but what's weird is that I knew like in terms of spatial awareness, very, very, good spatial awareness.

Um, so it's weird that I couldn't get left and right straight.

Dan: Yeah, it's fantastic. I mean, that's,

Roy: There's only two options, right? You always choose the wrong

Dan: I cannot posit. Uh, I don't know anything about the brain, except there's just like a pattern and it's kind of interesting for people who are able to visualize

Roy: I didn't realize that was a thing.

Dan: Well, I don't know if it is. I'm just, it's very anecdotal. Yeah. In my experience, it's like there's a pattern and, um, Yeah, I think it's just kinda cool.

I think I gotta go find a psychologist to talk to about

Roy: I bet there is a correlation there.

Dan: Yeah. First of all, I'm just so glad that we actually, I I've known of you for a really long time. I think we've been in the same place a couple of times, but it was so good to meet you at our holiday party and just sit there and have a glass of wine.

And I just get to know you. And I feel like whatever that warm feeling that I had then with you is happening again, right here, sitting on top of Manhattan. And I'm just really, I don't know who did the seating arrangement there, but maybe it was Katie or Stacey. And I, I think I have to thank them because we've come full circle.

Roy: Likewise. Yeah. Thank you, Stacey, Katie, whoever it was.

Dan: I just really appreciate it because, um, you know, it's so often that we don't get to take this time. And like, in this case, and I'm like, I'm in your home and like, we're just really pausing. I don't get to do a lot of these recordings in person. And I just love this. There's like this energy between us that's here while we're talking and it's just like, it's like watching and it's, it's present and, and I like it.

So thank

Roy: I'm so into the woo woo with you. I love it.

Dan: It's, it's amazing.

Roy: know, also like the more that we talk about, you know, AI and, and just the way that the world is, is going right now. Like, I think that's why I think, um, meditation is so, so, so important, regardless of faith or, or anything, because it just centers you so much.

And of, of any practice that I've ever, um, um, you know, been into, it's by far the most, meaningful. And it seems the most trivial because you're really just sitting there with yourself and with source, right? Whatever your belief of what that is. And it's just so, so, so necessary right now that everybody is connected in that way.

And then you do that with yourself and then you can do that with other people.

Dan: meditation has been transformative for me, and I think everyone, just the practice of mindfulness, um, and for me, journaling as well has been really good. It's um, it's one of those things where, um, again, finding that pause, slowing down, and writing about gratitude and appreciation. I think ever since I've started doing that, it's been about 10 years now.

Um, And I have just stacks of journals. Mostly I think they're there because at some point when I'm no longer around, my kids will be able to go through them and find some good

Roy: And do you journal every

Dan: Yeah.

Roy: Wow, that's amazing. I also think journaling is one of the most important things you can do.

Dan: It is. And, uh, I do this practice. It's called 10, 10, 10. I learned it at a, this learning retreat I went on, but it was, it's 10 minutes of meditation. 10 minutes of reading, and then 10 minutes of

Roy: what do you read?

Dan: Anything, it doesn't matter.

Roy: And then, um, when you journal, how do you journal? Like, what do you write about?

Dan: So I just go into, usually I'll start off with gratitude, like what I'm grateful for around others, or like around me, and then appreciation, things I appreciate about myself, because often times that's just, we don't do that. Um, or I didn't in the past, and it's

Roy: It's important to talk to yourself, I think. Yeah.

Dan: Um, depending on what I'm reading or what's on my mind, I'll just do that for 10 minutes.

And I, I always handwrite. I have terrible handwriting, so my kids will have a hard time reading it. But there's something about that flow and the transfer of the ink to the paper that helps me remember it because it's like an imprint for me. And it's some, it's tactile. I don't, I

Roy: I also handwrite my

Dan: and I love it.

And what I, what I learned the most of is, um, In the, in doing this practice is usually I'd have some spike of gratitude or appreciation if a friend of mine got sick or someone died and I'm just, Oh, thank God. Like my family and I'm okay. And like, it was a spike. I was like, and then I would just kind of take stock.

And then once I started the, all the, this practice of 10, 10, 10, it almost put like a, like a, a hum. Kind of like the train sound in the background of like gratitude and appreciation, just kind of running in the background. So I don't get those spikes anymore, but I'm just, I just find that I'm a bit more, um, present and open.

And I think actually, since I started doing that, it's made me enjoy doing these or start doing these podcasts and enjoy it. Cause like, I'm really, When they're doing, going well, I'm like really focused and listening and done that on the space between and everything. It's really helped me be a, become an active listener, I think.

And, and it's not a superpower. Like anyone can do it. You just have to commit

to it.

Roy: can do it. Anybody. We all have the ability. Yeah.

Dan: When your dad had the grocery store in Calgary, did you like work checkout or were you doing stock?

Roy: everything. Everything. I did checkout. I, um, worked stock. I, you know, cleaned the floors. Um, it was very dusty in Calgary. So I actually remember the thing I liked the least was cleaning all the merchandise. So I take like a wet rag and then I clean the canned goods and you know, like there's just dust everywhere all the

Dan: that developed your attention to detail.

Roy: Detail. I think I always had that. Yeah, the attention to detail.

Dan: Um, so if the Roy I'm sitting with right now were to magically appear in front of the Roy wiping down the cans of soup, what advice would you have for yourself?

Roy: My advice would be to say relax, everything is going to be okay. Because, you know, I grew up, um, even though Canada is such a great place to grow up, um,

Dan: Like,

Roy: and So, for example, I experienced very little racism. Like, I remember experiencing it when I left Canada and just being shocked, like, what is this?

Dan: been shocked, like,

Roy: I didn't know what it was.

Um, but I had a lot of internalized homophobia, um, when I was that age, um, because we went to an evangelical church, and it was just a lot of kind of self loathing. Um, so I think that would be my advice. Um just that everything is is going to be okay. I would say that's number one and then number two is like listen to yourself and I think that's uh true for everybody.

Just listen to again, meditation, right? It's just

Dan: of you,

Roy: you have all the answers inside of you. So, you just need to to listen,

Dan: I love the listen to yourself, because oftentimes when making a, a decision or a career choice or whether to leave or come back, um, the body and how you feel in your body is like an incredible barometer

and

Roy: true. It's

Dan: And I have friends who, you know, they won't make a decision. Unless they get a full body.

Hell yeah. You know, I'm not there yet. Like, cause sometimes I think, um,

Roy: You have to be really in tune with your body though

Dan: you do, but also in being an entrepreneur or just, you know, I don't know. Inertia is like the mind killer to me in a way. So in a way, like I'm always kind of taking risks and putting things out there. And sometimes the body says, Ooh, what are you doing?

But, but it's also good to take that, to take that leap. Just like you leaving

and coming back. Mm.

Roy: Yeah.

Dan: So listen to yourself. Okay. Um, and everything always is going to be okay. Cause what can we do?

Roy: I think that's true. So go with it.

Dan: You gotta go with it. Um, this has been really a wonderful conversation. Thank you for inviting me into your home and giving me this wonderful tour of One Manhattan Square and learning more about you and getting to know you and sharing what you and Extel and just hospitality means to everyone out there.

So thank you.

Roy: Thank you, Dan. It's been such a pleasure.

Dan: My, no, the pleasure's been mine, but thank you. Thank you. And I just wanna thank all of you because without you, um, we wouldn't be here talking to Roy, um, looking out over the East River and seeing governor's island and the clouds, and

Roy: Hopefully you can see

Dan: it.

Yeah. So just everyone relax, listen to yourself. Everything's gonna be okay. Oh, and if people wanted to learn more about you and Excel, where can they get in

Roy: they can go to LinkedIn or they can go to RKMedExtel. com. Yeah.

Dan: Everyone. Thank you. Listen to yourself. It's all going to be okay.