Defining Hospitality

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Dan Ryan: Today's guest is a world renowned clinical psychologist, entrepreneur writer, public speaker, and so much more. The author of her recent book, nervous energy harness, the power of your anxiety with an endorsement by Deepak Chopra. She's appeared on inside of this. ABC Nightline, VH1 and many, many others.
Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Chloe Carmichael. Welcome Chloe.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Thank you so much, Dan. It's great to be with you. I was just sharing with you before we came on that I love the hospitality industry, certainly [00:01:00] as a consumer, as well as just the people in the hospitality industry and just the level of empathy and style that the industry always has.
So it's really a pleasure to be with you.
Dan Ryan: Uh, thank you so much. And then I'm so glad you just came out of the gate talking about empathy, because one of the reasons why I really wanted to have you on here, and I've known you and about you for years through EO, mostly the entrepreneurs organization. Um, but I've just loved all the work that you're doing.
Helping people be okay and embrace their anxiety. And I think, and I'm not a clinician I'm I have no idea you're a doctor, but I think a lot of that work has to do with being a good listener and being super empathetic. And that's why I thought it would tie nicely into hospitality. So with that in mind, like how do you define hospitality and how do you make others feel comfortable around you so that they can open up and become.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Sure. Well, those are a lot of questions and they're great questions. They'll try to take them [00:02:00] one at a time, but with hospitality, I have to start by saying kind of a disclaimer. I am a little bit of a nerd, right? So PhD in clinical psychology. When I even saw the title of your. show Defining hospitality. I got really curious about the etymology or the, Greek roots of that word.
so I was just looking it up and noticing that it means as I'm sure your listeners know that the Greek word in HOSPA is going to be tracing to, caring for people. Not only as a host But that it also pertains, as a guest. And I thought it was interesting too, to see it was the same root that we applied to hospital.
I personally have almost had that emergency room feeling like, get me to a fine dining experience or a great hotel. I need that my soul needs to be taken care of. because actually also in psychology, the Greek word, psyche traces to spirit. So I do think that there's so much overlap [00:03:00] with psychology and hospitality as you said, that.
Level of empathy that, that we need to bring to people.
Dan Ryan: I totally agree with you. I guess, and we talked about this a little bit, but I'd love to hear from you free for you to be successful and for you to really drive results in all of your guests or guests, your patients. Um,
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I like that. Yeah, because
Dan Ryan: you're welcoming, welcoming them into your office and then there's the stereotype of the couch.
Right. And they're lying down there. And how do you. Get them to feel comfortable, to empty out their secrets to you. And so that they can really dig deep and see progress.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Well, I mean, on a certain level, they're not hiding the ball when they come to me, you know, they, they do, they usually want to try to like, get it out there and get taken care of.
So they're, they usually, they, they want to put it out there, but I do find that they get more willing to put it out there when. [00:04:00] I sense that I'm going to be able to really capture and take care of the needs that they are putting out there, because we've all had times where we've invested a lot of time and energy, trying to explain our situation to somebody, whether it be a doctor, a customer service provider, you know, or.
Space or, you know, a hospitality situation. And we put a lot of effort into explaining, and then it just seems like the person didn't get it or it didn't land. So, you know, obviously listening is super important. I practice a fair amount of what psychologists call reflective listening at first, which is, you know, I'm just kind of capturing and reflecting back to them what they've said to me, except I'm able to do it very quickly and very concerned.
Mostly, right. So they might speak for 10 minutes about, you know, kind of, uh, they're finding the words to say stuff they're trying to make these connections, and then I'm able to [00:05:00] kind of feed it back and say, I see. So your issue is that, you know, at the office, you, you want to be more assertive, but you've had a few times with colleagues where it's backfired and you're looking for ways you can do that without seeming like the bad guy.
And so when you're able to feed it back to somebody, very concisely, they're like, okay, she's not only listening, but her facility and being able to summarize and kind of get to the direct points, suggest to them that I've been down this road before and which, you know, gives them confidence. I think the way that kind of.
Sign to your industry. I would imagine is the ability to be able to listen obviously to clients and what they're looking for and the kinds of spaces that they want to create. Recognizing certainly that each one is unique and making them feel special, but also being able to make it clear on a certain level.
That you can see which categories are, which [00:06:00] spaces are, which profiles they're fitting into and when they can sense that you have that experience and that ability to listen closely and then reflect it back in a way that confirms you understand it. I think that builds rapport and, and does facilitate that person opening up further.
Dan Ryan: It's really interesting. You say that because one of the things I think we're really good at when we're. Designing for a hotel or providing furniture or doing, creating a new space is there's so much detail. We go through all the detail of each piece of furniture. Right. And then I find it's most effective when I capture everything, but then I can say to them, okay, so I get all this, but what's most important about this piece or what's most important about this room so that we can then kind of deliver.
Where to fight our battles, so to speak and that in a way that idea of reflective listening, it's almost summarizing and what bringing what's most important to the. [00:07:00]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Well, it's reflective listening, but an extra step, more Dan, which at which I do, and which you just demonstrated that you do. So, one of the big complaints that a lot of people have when they leave a therapist and come to me is I'll always ask them, you know, therapist or coach, why did you leave the last person?
And they'll say, They would just basically reflect back to me what I just said to them. Right. And so at a certain point it's like, okay, well, reflective listening is nice, but it's not really solving my problems. Right. And what you just did there is, is you reflected back, you made it clear that you really captured it, but then you knew the right questions to ask to kind of help them locate the thread that you could see from your experience as a space designer, you know, furniture, selection.
What is the primary function really of this room, so that you are keeping your eye on, on the, on the endpoint and learning how to help them stay focused on how to get there. So it's partly listening and [00:08:00] reflecting, but then it's from a springboard then that allows you to really guide the conversation in a way that makes them feel enriched by it.
Dan Ryan: I enjoy hearing that and thank you. You just made me, you just kind of. Made me feel like I know what I'm doing, so I appreciate that.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: So you do know what you're doing. Dad, I've been following you a little bit too, and through E O N definitely. No question about that.
Dan Ryan: Well, I appreciate that. And it's interesting on so many of the conversations that I've been having with hotel owners, hotel operators, the people who are actually running the hotels and then even the guests who are going in, oftentimes there's this script.
Oh, hello, Dr. Carmichael. Hello doc. You know, say your name three times. That's going to make the guests feel comfortable, but oftentimes that's very robotic and not like empathetic in a way, and it's not welcoming, but you're, you're almost following a script. So anyway. In [00:09:00] your zone of genius of just helping people harness their nervous energy and use it in their advantage.
How do you like you have a formula, but what, what is a way that you break through the formula to really affect change and really make them.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yes, Dan, that is such a good question. So when I was in my training, I was always guided to go through this, you know, quote, formal assessment, you know, where you go to this, the psychologist, did they say, so tell me, you know, about your history.
Are you on medic medications? How many siblings do you have? And like, they're literally going through a form. And because I work with, you know, just such high achieving GOCO, They just would be bored to tears. They would just feel like they were wasting their time. And so what I found was most helpful was to just start by saying, you know, what brings you in today?
You know, what's going on? How can I help? And just starting with the part that felt most important to them. [00:10:00] And then I was peripherally gathering the rest of the information, right. So if they were. The example I gave earlier about conflict at the office, I might say. Okay. And does this problem present itself in your safe family life?
Can you tell me a little bit about your family? So instead of saying question five, how many siblings do you have? I'm I'm, I'm gathering the information and. Just truly more guided by the client and where they need to go. Another thing Dan, that I think is, um, you know, since you brought up the anxiety piece and I, and my book with the concept that with nervous energy, we can reframe anxiety rather than being something that's like bad as actually a source of energy because, um, in psychology anxiety does actually have a healthy function.
Stimulate preparation behaviors. So a lot of people would come to me saying Dr. Chloe, how can I get rid of my anxiety? And I would try to explain to them, that's kind of like an anorexic who wants to [00:11:00] get rid of all her body fat or his, or her body fat. They don't realize that there's actually a healthy function to it.
We just need to learn how to manage. So, what I would teach them is how to take that anxiety about, say an upcoming meeting. And instead of just trying to take a deep breath and let it go, I would say, well, what could be some structured ways that we could take that little boost of adrenaline that you're feeling that mother nature is giving you a boost in focus and an energy around.
Topic. And how could we use that constructively to take advantage of it and help you progress towards your goal, which is the way that mother nature intended it. And I think in your situation as well, Dan, I'm sure you all run into some kind of stressed out people, right? Like there's big money on the line.
They need these spaces, these hotels to work. They, they, they kind of should be a little stressed about it, right? Like a brother then blahzay. Right. And so. It's wonderful. I think that you [00:12:00] want to try to help them figure out how to capture, you know, that, that level of attention and, and sense of being on point and then just help them put that all out there and use that energy to guide them and really build something beautiful for them.
Dan Ryan: Thank you. And when you said anxiety, Is a method is really a way to, I think you said stimulate preparation, right? So your body or your mind or your body and your mind are telling you something, right. Right now, one of our big challenges in the hospitality industry is people are scared to travel, right?
There's a, there's an overwhelming fear or anxiety about that. Um, and I want people to be traveling again. That means everything is moving forward. Projects will start to unleash, um, And also it will foster connection between humans, which is really kind of why I do what I do speaking [00:13:00] generally about people and that idea of anxiety towards travel in particular, how are you helping your clients who have a fear of travel to be better with it, or to kind of unlock them so that we can all get on the road again and start having these collisions of relationships and meeting new people.
Getting out there and experiencing life.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah. Well, I think that there's, um, you know, so much fear that has been kind of put out there to people. Um, and also a lot of guilt, which has been really difficult too, that people are, if they're not afraid of getting there, the virus they're, they're, they're afraid of somehow accidentally transmitting it to someone else, you know, and then feeling really guilty about that.
Um, so there's, I think a, an importance that I found of, of learning how to put boundaries. You know, around your concerns. And there's a technique from my book called the zone of control, which is basically, um, where [00:14:00] we look at our concern of say, you know, anxiety about travel. And then we would try to break that down into what are the pieces that I can control and what are the pieces.
You know, that I cannot control and then learning to use that anxiety, um, only to focus on the areas that we can control. Um, and then learning to just, you know, do the oil, you know, deep breathe, deep breaths and let it go around the stuff that we cannot control. But again, this whole point of harnessing the power of your anxiety is that we actually don't want to do deep breaths and let it go around the parts that we can control.
Right. So, um, In the hospitality industry. I do think that there's such a fine line because I would imagine, and not just imagine, I, I can say from my own personal experience, as well as from, you know, what clients who are world-class, you know, business travelers have told me. There are some [00:15:00] who are, to me actually, somewhat phobic, like irrationally phobic about these things.
And there are certainly some, you know, who, who probably could, could stand to be a little bit more cautious. Right. Um, and then there are people that are somewhere in the middle. Um, and I, one of the things that I think is interesting as well is it's the issue of masks, right? So I think in the hospitality.
Um, a lot of, you know, hospitality leaders sometimes think like, oh, well, by putting masks on all of our servers and all of our staff that will just make everybody feel more comfortable. Cause it will demonstrate, you know, that we're being so cautious. But I think I, on an, on the other hand, what it does of course, is it can cut off the ability for people to have that warm, friendly, smile, you know, that greeting, um, or it can just put people almost done edge on a certain level to cause there is something just them.
So [00:16:00] innately reassuring about the human face. So I just want to start by seeing, I really feel for the people in the hospitality industry right now. I know that's a really tough one. Um, but going back to the theme of, of just being new. To listen. And to understand that even the hospitality industry itself might have some anxiety about how to navigate this and how to handle this and how can we harness that anxiety and use that as a springboard.
Um, and how can the hospitality industry listen? Right. So, I mean, I could see a world, for example, where. Guests get a little bit of a, you know, survey or profile about their preferences, you know, do you prefer, you know, to interact with people who are, you know, do, do you prefer it as contact lists a visit as possible, you know, or do you have a different kind of a feeling where you're actually looking for a little bit more of a, of a contact, you know, traditional type of hotel visit?
[00:17:00] Makes you feel more comfortable? I think also just when we can visibly see those markers of cleanliness when we can smell and sense those markers of cleanliness. Um, and when we have a sense that our own preferences are being listened to and honored, um, I think that that really helps to put people at ease and put people at rest, but.
I will say, of course, it's I know it's a tough time for the hospitality industry. I've actually done a fair amount of posts. Even on my Instagram, they cash takes the port hospitality. Um, I left to take my laptop to restaurant bars and just do some work, um, because, uh, I always liked to, but now I have a good excuse as well.
I'm supporting hospitality, Chloe. It's
Dan Ryan: interesting. As you were talking about the. The guest experience of having certain seeing servers and masks, um, where they can't really get that warm. Fuzzy, I think you said it's also, if you think, as you were saying that I was thinking about the servers and the front desk [00:18:00] folks who are supposed to be open-hearted listening.
And to the guests coming in and really hearing what, hearing what they're saying, but we know that so much of hearing is also reading body language and seeing body language and the, the providers of hospitality who are making people feel welcome. Also can't read what the guests are, are saying as well.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Right. You mean if the guests are masked? Yeah. Um, so I guess I would just think, you know, There, there, there would be ways that you would want to try to streamline those processes as much as possible again, you know, so I know we all get like a, maybe an, an, a notification when it's time to check in for our flight.
You know, if there can be like a similar type of a process, you know, in hospitality so that you can answer some basic questions. You know, before you even get there. Um, and again, personally, as someone, myself who, [00:19:00] uh, just really prefers a little bit more of the, of the high touch, I'd much rather see a friendly face personally, at this point.
Um, and I know for some people it's the opposite. They, they, they would much rather see, you know, uh, uh, a sterilized mask like that actually just feels much better to them. Um, and so I would just be curious to know if there's, if there are. To, to try to accommodate the guests around that maybe it would even depend on the locality.
Dan Ryan: There are ways. And oftentimes, and, and they're, they're nascent in the sense that they're trying to figure themselves out for me. I'm like you, I like the high touch. Other people don't that this whole contactless thing and not having housekeeping it's it's right up their alley. They don't want to be around people, but it would be interesting, but I feel like we have served.
Overwhelmed if you will, but if a way to just really vet into simple buckets of like, how do you want to be communicated with what's important to you? How do you want your room temperature set and. Uh, have [00:20:00] that go to the hotel and then have it actually be acted upon or the restaurant. I think that's a really interesting idea.
I'm sure it's being worked on, but I really liked.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah. I mean, I would, I know again, like every locality even has different rules about masks and things, but I could even see a world where like the in place masks have it printed on them. Just tell me if you'd like me to take this off. You know what I mean?
So that people could, um, just know that they weren't going to have. A bare face foisted upon them, but that they would also know that that really we're just trying to make you comfortable. And if the mask makes you comfortable, we'll wear it. If it doesn't, you know, then we'll take it off. But again, I know that may or may not be possible depending on, you know, every industry, uh, location and the in place.
Dan Ryan: I totally agree. And before you were mentioning, this zone of control is one of the techniques that you have in your book. And I believe you said, I think there's nine. Are there nine techniques and tools that are in your book and your book? [00:21:00] Nervous energy. So as far as of the nine, so zone of control is one, but as it pertains to travel, interacting, making others feel comfortable, what are some other, what, what, what are some other of the tools that might.
Salient to this conversation about making others feel comfortable and delivering hospitality.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Well, what are the techniques in the book is, is the mental shortlist technique. And that when we use, you know, primarily when we get into kind of a mental rut about something, like maybe it was really productive to say, you know, the example in the book is like, you're trying to prepare for a big meeting and it's all you can think about.
And that's very productive up to a certain point, but then you reach a point of. You're just ruminating. You're just spinning your wheels. And at that point, you give yourself a new mental shortlist of say five things that you're going to deliberately pivot to. Instead, whenever you start, you know, just over focusing on that one thing.
Um, and so I wonder if you could adapt that type of technique [00:22:00] into, you know, your industry, where on a certain level we can think about the coronavirus. Until, you know, we're blue in the face, so to speak. Um, but then maybe we could make a list of say, what are five other things that we also just, you know, want to make sure that, that we don't lose sight of, you know, or what are five things that we can pivot to when we're starting to sense, you know, that a guest is getting a little bit, um, Distanced from us or, you know, that we're just not connecting with them.
Um, you know, I think also just addressing the fact that traveling is a little bit more high stress right now. Like, would it be a time to say, have, you know, I'm a massage therapist on staff that you could just, you know, as a way to welcome travelers that might even be almost like a. A subtle way to start finding out about their preferences.
Like when they're checking in to say, you know, by the way, you know, we recognize it's a [00:23:00] stressful time for travelers. We have a massage therapist on staff and we're giving complimentary 30 minute massages. You know, if you'd like one, I can sign you up and people who say, oh, yes, that sounds great. Like, those might be the people who are kind of self-identifying as maybe more high touch and, you know, people who are just like, oh no, I don't want that.
You know, that you might be able to find out if. You know, kind of peripheral ways, you know, similarly, um, you know, making it clear that you have, you know, breathing apps or, you know, like calm techniques available or, you know, offering them even to say, you know, look, I love the way you put it down, that there's survey fatigue.
Um, but just having something available and saying, you know, you don't need to complete this at all, but we do have a few questions that we, it might help us to make your stay more comfortable if you want to. Complete this, you know, we'd be happy to, you know, give you a seat there in the lounge and a nice glass of, um, drink of your choice while you complete this, if you would like to, and [00:24:00] then you're giving them the option to sit down and share with you, but you're also not putting it on them.
Like it's some kind of an admin burden and even their response to that, I think would probably start to clue you in about if this is somebody who likes contact or who just doesn't.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. As you were talking about this mental shortlist to kind of short circuit, some apprehension or fear or anxiety, and you said that make a list of five, it was re it rung a bell in my head because oftentimes when I get into that place, I do throw, I write down on a little note card, like three things I'm grateful for and three things I appreciate about myself.
And that's six, it's not five. It's pulling those out of my head. I'm thinking about those positive things really helps me change. Or re circuit whatever was happening.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah. Yeah. I can see where it would. Yeah. I mean, even just the testing, the number to it, um, you know, I'm, [00:25:00] I'm going to have my mental short list of say five things.
And in the book, you know, people can have, you know, their mental shortlist can be anything from. I'm going to start thinking about my birthday on holiday shopping that I always forget about. I'm going to think about, you know, that re writing some thank you notes to some employees who have just been really stellar.
And I need to recognize them in the book. We really suggest that, um, the things on your mental short list should be very diverse, so that. They can help you no matter where you are mentally, but the technique can definitely be adapted. So again, if you're trying to think about even, you know, what are five ways to quickly make a guest feel more comfortable, or, you know, what are five ways that I can start to subtly gauge?
You know, whether this is a guest who seems to like the high contact or whether this is a guest who would just really appreciate contactless.
Dan Ryan: I love writing. Thank you notes. And I think it's a lost art and there's something about taking the [00:26:00] moment with the piece of stationary and writing. Just even a couple of words of gratitude helps me reframe what's going on and just be present.
Um, in addition to the mental shortlist, I L I love that tool. Is there another one that would be. I'm sure there's so many, but like, if you were to think of another one that would rise to the top, as far as being a guest or delivering hospitality to that guest
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: well, you know, there's one which is, uh, could actually, I think, adapt to your industry as well.
It's called the to-do list with emotional. And so what we do there is, you know, obviously everybody knows what to do list is. And then because again, I tend to work with very driven people there to do. List is very long and they love to quote do, do do, but then they sometimes get almost like a hamster on a wheel feeling where they're just knocking things out and they don't feel connected to it, or they suddenly find themselves, you know, kind of burnt out and [00:27:00] procrastinating around things on their list.
So what we do in that situation, As we look at the things on their to do list. And then we think about, you know, what are the emotions that come up for you about this to do item, and then what are some self-care plans that we can layer into that? So, for example, um, I have, uh, an example in the book of a, of a man who has recently.
And he, for some reason is just really struggling to go grocery shopping. And when we asked what is the emotion with that? He said loneliness and sadness. And of course it turned out. It was because his ex used to do the grocery shopping. So the self care plan then for him was just a plan, a good cell phone, catch up call with a good friend while he did his grocery shopping.
And the way that I think we could kind of translate this to your industry would be that we would think about what are some of the. The steps or the [00:28:00] functions that hospitality has to do with a guest. So for example, check-in the guest, like you said, um, and what are the emotions that we start to feel about that process from the side of the hotel, from the hospitality side?
And it sounds like one of the emotions that you mentioned is apprehension, um, because you're not sure if this is somebody who wants a high contact or a low contact, you know, check-in. So identifying that that's the emotion and that might mean even giving your staff some, some training in how to do some deep breathing and how to relax themselves so that they can remain, you know, kind of mentally.
Sending out, just a nice, calm feeling when a guest starts to approach them, it might also mean that, you know, maybe that self-care plan also does include finding, you know, some kind of a practical way [00:29:00] to. Even offer the guests, even at the moment of check-in to say, you know, we have two options, we have a quick check-in and we're happy to just, you know, do the check-in and give you your keys.
Welcome. And, you know, we also have what we call, you know, our, our enhanced check-in. Where, if you have some time, we'd love to offer you a beverage and learn a little bit more about what would make you comfortable here. But of course, we, we, we want to do whatever kind of check in is best for you. And then that's so a self care plan, so to speak for the company to address their feeling of apprehension around the to-do list.
Item of checking in a guest,
Dan Ryan: that's fascinating. Okay. That's actually very useful. In anything, whether you're kicking off a project or starting a, or checking in a guest or anything that's, that's wonderful. So going back, like, how did you decide to become who you are as far as the psychologist goes? Like what, what, what [00:30:00] was the path that got you?
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Sure. Well, I started off as a yoga teacher. Um, so I've always been really interested in, in wellness and stress management and just helping people as well as myself, you know, to really live their best life and feel good and healthy and well. So it started out for me, teaching private yoga lessons, to be honest, it was just the way that I could make.
Money. Right. So I've also, I was an entrepreneur without even knowing it. I never set out to like, be an entrepreneur, but then it just kind of came about that. Like throughout my life, I just, you know, happens to always be somehow figuring out how I could make the job that I was doing, you know, work better for me.
Um, which just led me, you know, to entrepreneurship kind of organically. So I was teaching individual yoga less. Two. And then by definition, that meant I was usually teaching to kind of successful people, right? Because only successful people can afford a private yoga lesson, so [00:31:00] successful, but also people who were self-aware and genuinely interested in their wellness, that that's how they would choose to spend their discretionary time and income.
And they would want to make the lessons count, obviously. And so did I, um, so they might be telling me like, oh, well, my, my reason for doing yoga is I want to find more balance in my life. I'm so stressed out with my work. So I would create these custom yoga programs. My website was actually custom yoga.com and I would create these custom yoga programs for them, where I would teach them meditations.
That would promote that. And then I would weave in specific references to things in their life and that I would also teach them physical yoga, pastures, that involved balance so that we would just really be holistically gathering this. And I found that people were loving it. They were eating it up. It was amazing.
And. They would almost kind of [00:32:00] start elevating me to like a level that I knew I couldn't really occupy. Um, and I almost started it. It was kind of stimulating me that anxiety was stimulating me to realize that I needed and wanted to learn more, um, really about the, the brain and the mind and personality and social.
Behaviors, because that's what a lot of their concerns pertained to. And so that's why I actually then went and got a PhD in clinical psychology at took, you know, a long time. It takes six years minimum post-college to do that with a clinical psychology degree because. You know, just hours of clinical time.
Um, and then I started my office and I, I didn't even know if I would be able to fill my own chair. It's kind of like the number one fear of, of graduating therapists is how am I going to stay in business? Like, well, I have any clients, you know? And so again, I took that anxiety. And I shared this story in my book too, is I [00:33:00] took that anxiety and I, I harnessed it into what can I do about it?
And so I meet a schedule for myself, where I had to come to work 40 hours a week, whether I had a client or. Uh, either seeing clients or figuring out how to get them. And very soon, within a few months I was so full. I had to hire other therapists and, um, I, one of the things I was doing to try to get myself out there was I'm trying to submit.
To the media, through websites like help a reporter out and things like that seriously, before I knew it, like I started having TV called me. I didn't, I didn't have any contacts in the media. Um, but again, part of what I was doing was trying to get like great professional headshots, trying to really, I put videos of myself on my website, answering.
Frequently asked questions. Um, and one thing led to another and you know, the, the book teal like cave a couple of years ago, even though the book was just published now in March, but it was a couple of [00:34:00] years in the making. So it's been, uh, it's it's and then doing corporate workshops as well. It just came organically.
Um, baker McKenzie, the third largest law firm in the world. Um, just reached out to me and said, you know, can you start putting together some things for us? It went well and it just kind of grew from there.
Dan Ryan: Uh, and then thinking about where you could go, you didn't just say, oh, this is where I'm going to go.
You were really listening to a need that was out there. And then this whole thing happened.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: That's true. So in my final year of licensure, so even after you got your PhD, you have to work under someone else's license. And I did that year at a firm called corporate counseling associates that, um, is it like a EAP employee assistance program for fortune 500 companies?
And it was my job to pair stressed out executives with therapists. And so I had a lot of experience. Talking to them about which therapists they wanted to be paired [00:35:00] with, why that therapist didn't work out, et cetera. And so I was just logging all of that information so that I could use it when I started my own practice.
Dan Ryan: From the time that you went on this entrepreneurial journey, could you have, first of all, could you have imagined having Deepak Chopra contribute to your book? Number one and number two, like how did that even
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: happen? Yeah, it's so wild and no, I couldn't have imagined it. And I'm not somebody who gets that imposter syndrome, like where you think that you don't deserve what you have or whatever.
I don't suffer from that, but I. I still sort of can't believe that he endorsed the book, like, but I think it was my yoga background because I do talk about mindfulness in an, a very, I think, unique and fresh way that really blends my yoga teacher background with psychology. And I think that was the part that, that he probably really.
Stood out to him, but, um, I'm also a huge networker. So again, just going back to hospitality, I love to go out to [00:36:00] be at really nice places where, you know, there's just, they just almost force you to have a good time. Right. And so, um, I was at a networking event and I happened to meet somebody who's a publicist and she, and I just became friends and I would always invite her out to fabulous lunches and things, because I just knew it would help me to be around somebody like her.
That was going to give me. And one day she said to me, you know, Chloe, it's great that your business is doing so well, but you know, if you don't read a book by the time you're 40, it's just, you know, you're, you're just not going to like, she's, she can be kind of blunt. She's like, you're, you're, you're just not going to count.
And then, so I was like, okay, well then I have to write a book. What should it be about? And she said, well, you know, like, let's think about your practice. You know, you have this. You know, ritzy park avenue practice. And, you know, you obviously like do some unique things with your clients, you know, like, could you write a book about that?
So I said, uh, yeah, sure. So I started like making an outline for it and I was actually, again, thanks to hospitality, sitting at a [00:37:00] restaurant bar with my laptop. Like I often am working on that proposal. And it happened to be that I was at a restaurant bar by the flat iron district, which is where a lot of the publishing houses are located.
And I just got to chatting with the weapon next to me, who happened to be a big editor. And she then wanted to see my proposal for my book and she passed it around to some friends. And within six months I had a book deal.
Dan Ryan: Wow. So it's really just putting yourself out there and. Kind of manifesting this, but if you're not putting yourself out there, if you're not getting over any kind of nervous.
Nothing is going to happen,
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: correct? Yeah. I mean, in my particular case, yes, putting myself out there was the right way to harness the power of, of my anxiety. But every situation will be a little different and that's why there are nine techniques in the book. But the first one is a mindfulness technique that really trains us to [00:38:00] study and observe the nature of the anxiety.
So that way we know like w is this one where I just need to learn how to do those really good deep breaths and learn how to just let something go. Sometimes that is the best thing to do. Or is this situation calling for a very structured, you know, lean in type of approach, like that mental shortlist where we train ourselves to almost like, think about something else.
That can be perfect in some situations, but counterproductive and others. So that's why the first technique in the book is a mindfulness technique. And then the other eight techniques it's really going to vary, which one is appropriate based on the situation,
Dan Ryan: because for instance, that mental shortlist, it's really a way to short circuit or distract, but sometimes you just need to focus on the task at hand and distracting yourself might not be.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Exactly. Exactly. Although in the adaptation that we did here today, um, we did talk about some [00:39:00] adaptations of the mental shortlist, where it could actually be, you know, what are five good ways on my mental short list that I can focus on a situation. What are five questions I can ask this guest, if things start to seem like they're going sideways.
So, um, the mental shortlist technique can be adapted, but yes, it's true that there are some situations where, um, we need an anxiety technique. That's going to teach us almost how to escape or distract ourselves and avoid ruminating on something. And sometimes we need a technique that will stop us from avoiding something that will guide us to just get in there and, and tackle it.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. And to me, that one really resonated, um, Oh, I forgot which one did you, I forgot which one you called that
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: the motion
Dan Ryan: to do lists with emotion. So it can get you past procrastination. If you really associate it with whatever the, the positive or even negative emotion is. Cause then you can counter bounce.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: [00:40:00] Yeah. So then you cannot really address it and practice self care around it. Instead of wondering why, you know, you're just avoiding something or just not feeling fulfilled by something, it guides you to really look at it and people feel more willing to do that when they know that. The important part of the to-do list with emotions includes self care or, you know, company care around understanding.
Okay, well, we're feeling apprehensive about the check-in process because we'd never know which way the guests is going to go. And so therefore we can have a care plan by then taking some steps to figure that out, or, you know, by taking some steps to help our employees to really remain calm so that they can help the guests to get calm to.
Cause if the gas picks up that were apprehensive, that they would get apprehensive to,
Dan Ryan: and a surprising theme of, from all of these conversations that I'm going, that I'm having. Okay. You can have these huge initiatives and just protocols and [00:41:00] procedures, but oftentimes it's just knowing how to listen and having the other person before.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: So true. So true. Not yes. You know, being heard. And again, that's where that reflective listening comes through to show them that you're listening, but also that part of your listening, especially if you're dealing with clients in the luxury space, usually involves listening to the fact that this person generally speaking.
It doesn't have a lot of time, right? A busy, stressed out business traveler. Part of what, you know, you, you need to hear is that they may not want to, you know, have a lot of time. And so that's my being able to communicate it back in a very concise way, helps and having certain kind of profiles and categories for people that you can start putting them into.
And my book, for example, I have three primary example characters. So there's, there's William, the scrutinize, or, you know, who's, you know, kind of like a constant worry, worry. And I talk about some techniques [00:42:00] since the way he views the world and some things to help for him. And then I have, you know, Greg who grins and bears it and he always puts on a happy face and seems fine.
But then inside, you know, he's, he's all over. And that I have Christina, the OCD queen. Who's like this big, you know, perfectionist and, you know, kind of like super OCD about everything. And it's not to say that I don't see each client is unique, but after years of years and years of experience, when you can start to see profiles and patterns, And then we can start to communicate that to clients.
It allows us to show them, you know, I'm listening, I hear you, and I can get your situation quickly. I can even kind of know certain things about you before you even tell me, because I've seen this picture before. I'm not going to totally put you in a box and not listen to you, but I at least have some context around you
Dan Ryan: in my worst.
I kind of feel like. When I'm at my worst state, but like [00:43:00] in your worst state, which one resonates with you the most with respect to.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Wow. With respect to travel, probably
Dan Ryan: eating or eating on Greg
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: as well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm a pretty easygoing person. So, um, I, I'm not like a super anxious person myself at all, which is probably why I was able to connect so well, you know, with people that were dealing with anxiety, make us, I said, if I were super anxious myself, it might be like the blind leading the blind.
Dan Ryan: Totally. When you think about the future as it pertains to travel and just overall anxiety, what's keeping you up with respect to that.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Well, um, I'm personally very eager to travel. You know, the only reason I'm not traveling a lot right now is because I have a four-year-old and I would totally take him with me.
I would just travel and take him with me. But to [00:44:00] be honest, really, for me, it's the issue of the masks. I mean, as a clinical psychologist, I'm aware that we have these things called mirror neurons, mirror neurons, only fire. When they see us. And so if you are smiling, even if I'm, you know, very sad myself, if I see you smile, it doesn't make me happy, so to speak, but my mirror and your ends will smile.
And this is the neurological underpinning of empathy. And that's one reason why it's very stressful to suddenly be walking around in a society where everyone. Basis covered, you know, it literally cuts off an important part of our communication. Plus of course, as a yoga teacher, I love to breathe freely.
Um, so I think for me, like the thing that keeps me up is I, again, like I could travel myself and just wear a mask. It's not that big of a deal, but putting my four year old in a mask, um, I'm just really. Not so comfortable, you know, doing that for, you [00:45:00] know, big periods of time. I think flying with a four year old is stressful enough, like without having to, you know, put in, you know, into all that.
So what keeps me up at night is just hoping and praying that we'll come to a place where, where we can see each other's friendly, faces all the time. Again,
Dan Ryan: I totally agree with you and I cannot wait. So that leads into the flip side of that question is what's exciting. You most about the future?
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Well, I mean, I actually love that.
Like love the fact of virtual, right? So what excites me in a way about, you know, the future is hoping that we do get to that time and place when we can all just travel and be together again, but also recognizing that there is a lot more that we can do virtually. So, you know, For example, as for empathy in the hospitality industry, you know, just like we used to have like the little proverbial phone booths, you know, um, I would think now maybe even having like zoom boosts, you know, like places that are like, you [00:46:00] know, little rooms that are set up where you can just really do like a, a nice high quality, you know, video call, or I know like having rooms that are, you know, equipped for easy connection to wifi and, um, You know, I, I love it when I go to a hotel and there is, um, I don't want to say the name or else.
My little smart device will, but a L E X a, you know, I, I, I love the ability to have those types of technologies.
Dan Ryan: I do not like that last part because my wife's name is Alexa. Whenever we're at someone's house. And I, someone says her name, or I say her name it's something buzzes or goes off.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Uh, I bet I bet.
Oh, that poor women, but
Dan Ryan: I don't want to detract from your excitement because overall I do think that that idea of being able to talk to the cloud and get answers and just having this external brain, I think it frees us up to focus on. What's on more important things.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah, [00:47:00] definitely. I've actually gotten also really into social media and, you know, public speaking more.
It wasn't really like I ever started out thinking I was going to be doing public speaking and, and, you know, group workshops and that kind of thing, but it really kind of evolves naturally. And it's just been kind of a new chapter, a new thing for me to do and to be able to connect with people. Cause that's what I love to do.
And just learning that I can connect with people, not even just one to one anymore. But I can also connect with people, you know, more broadly. Um, for me that's been a big growth point.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. I think that just dovetails perfectly in with that idea of just being virtual and not really fighting it. I know we have zoom exhaustion, but it does open up a whole new world and freedom for so many different people.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Yeah. You know, but I have to say like the lighting thing is so important, you know? Um, I'm just imagining with, with travelers or, [00:48:00] you know, those kinds of things, like, you know, I don't know if you're listed or some of them may be just listen. Some of them may be see, but I've got like my soft box lights and everything on me right now.
Like when we, when we do a zoom call, like we want to look good and we want to sound good. And you know, I would definitely like choose one hotel over the other. You know, if there was some kind of a way that I could know that I would look and sound my best, but again, every, um, every traveler is different.
So I'm sure that you guys have ways that you can profile your guests and figure out what's important to those, you know, at least different profiles. So, you know, each person is unique, but there must be patterns.
Dan Ryan: Um, Chloe thinking about, you know, how you've impacted so many people. As of today with teaching them how to harness the power of their anxiety, if you were to.
So you've, you've achieved this success, you're impacting so many people right now. If you could go back to the yoga instructor, Chloe, what [00:49:00] advice would you give your former self? Knowing everything that you know.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: I would really just say don't change a thing truly. Cause I'm, I'm so happy with the way that things have evolved.
And, um, you know, I, one of the favorite workshops they did, um, in the past was yoga and emotion as a psychologist, I did that, you know, so learning how. First, you know, really learn and master the yoga teacher world again, not to say I'm, I was the best, you know, but like I, you know, mastered it for my own use.
I think as much as it was good for me. And then really listening to that, um, realization that I had more learning to do. Um, and then going in for a PhD, I never thought I would do that either. So, um, I would really just, I would really just say, don't change a thing.
Dan Ryan: I love it. Great. Thinking about, you know, the, the future and like some of your travel plans.
Do you [00:50:00] have any trips planned right now?
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Um, I don't, but you know what? I just thought of one thing I might tell that that yoga teacher, Chloe, that I wish I actually, that I could have done is I would say I would tell her to start getting everybody's email addresses, right. Because this was like the early two thousands.
And I just didn't, I wasn't on social media and I didn't do much email. I was very low tech. Um, and, and I wish I had started building that, you know, digital, you know, network list earlier. Um, but no, as for travel, um, my husband and I go back to, uh, like just a nice little cottage in Michigan, every August.
For me, as soon as the world just opens up and lets us travel and just show our faces, my four year old and me will definitely be traveling. Um, I was invited to actually. You know, some speaking in Mexico city for a YPO event there.
And so that is in discussion. So I might end up going [00:51:00] to Mexico city soon, but we'll see how it goes. Wonderful.
Dan Ryan: And as everyone is here, listening and seeing you, um, if people are struggling with anxiety or are really intrigued and want to learn more, how can people connect?
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: Sure. Well, nervous energy book.com is an easy way to get to my website.
Uh, that's going to be focused on the book as well as some masterclasses and things like that. So nervous energy book.com, but also if people are interested in say, you know, speaking or workshops that you know, your organization, trying to put me out there to your book club or, you know, whatever else, um, Dr.
chloe.com. Speaking, but just Dr. Chloe D R C H L e.com is my website. And people can find everything there. I'm also all over Instagram, Twitter, YouTube. I'm just, I've actually really come to embrace social media and realized it's a great way to really connect with people.
Dan Ryan: Oh, thank [00:52:00] you for sharing. Um, well Chloe, thank you for being such an incredible guest and teaching us how to just be more comfortable and be better.
Listen.
Dr. Chloe Carmichael: It's my pleasure, Dan, thanks so much for having
Dan Ryan: thank you and thank you to all of our listeners. And if this talk has evolved, how you become a better listener or how you deliver hospitality to others, please share this podcast with a friend we're really eager to just get the word out there and make everyone feel more comfortable and get everyone out on the road again.
Thank you everyone. And we'll see you next time.