Defining Hospitality

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Dan Ryan: Today's guest delivers on a high quality product and experience for his customers. He's a resilient and persistent entrepreneur. He's the co-founder and host of the long running and very popular principle of hospitality podcast. He's the founder and director at open pantry consulting, ladies and gentlemen, Sean DeVries.
Welcome Sean.
Shaun de Vries: Hey Dan, how are you? I'm
Dan Ryan: great. It's uh, I'm very excited to do this. Talk with you because, uh, you know, I'm new to podcasting and. Within my little niche of the hotel world, um, developed a kind of a [00:01:00] cool following and I'm getting tremendous wonderful feedback. And it's always surprising and humbling when I go to events or conferences and people are telling me that they listened to it and they love this.
And what did I think about that? And it's just also surprising. I know you've been doing this since, uh, 2017, but like, tell me about your journey. Like, how did you get into podcast?
Shaun de Vries: Yeah. Um, thanks for asking. Thanks for, um, making me be a guest on the show. It's fantastic to be on. It's always fantastic to talk to anyone in north America because they are the epitome of what hospitality is.
So it's always a fantastic thing. And then
Dan Ryan: before you answer the question, I'm really curious about that. So tell me more about that. Why would you say that about us north Americans?
Shaun de Vries: North America for a long time has always been, especially, you know, obviously getting here from my accent I'm from Australia, um, has always been like this figurehead of what hospitality is the best of the best [00:02:00] level of service, the best dining restaurants, the best hotel experiences.
It's always been the top of the top. So when we've always looked at trends in Australia, especially in the restaurant industry, we've known that places like California and New York, Chicago, Um, you know, different places around the country, uh, the places that are probably 12 months, 18 months ahead of what we're doing in Australia.
So we can look to what's happening in the U S and then say, okay, well, in 12 months, that's going to be a trend here. Now it's, it's, it's hyper growth because of things like social media, but, um, but most definitely it's always been. The place where the best hospitality service is I think, in a world. So,
Dan Ryan: so actually that's, that's super interesting.
Um, because I think we all draw, we all derive inspiration from so many other places. We all stand on the shoulders of those before us. Um, what's a recent example that you saw or that you're seeing even now that's 12 to 18 months ahead of you [00:03:00] guys in Australia that you're excited to, uh, get the word out for your, your client.
Shaun de Vries: Oh, that's a great, that's a great question. Um, I would say it's going to be a pretty boring one, right. But I think things like technology and that kind of stuff, which have come through in the U S probably slow. Slightly earlier than what's happening here in Australia. Now it's starting to be pretty pretty level, but if you look at what's happening quick, quick service restaurants or QSR restaurants, um, the fried chicken sort of explosion that happened, um, four to five years ago is now come to Australia and, and is a really defining market.
If you look at burgers, gourmet burgers that happened at America first and allowed us to really think about what we're doing here in Australia as well, hasn't really happened so much in hotel experiences. I think probably high-end bespoke hotel experiences happened first in the us and, uh, and especially through Europe as well.
And then now that's starting to trend here in Australia. It's an entry market here in Australia, Dan, because if you [00:04:00] think about the size and population of Australia, like it's less than 30 million right around that mark. Um, so the whole population and, and, and market in Australia is equal to California.
So. You know, it's, it's a pretty small market, so you can sort of take things from America and, and pitch them here in Australia quite easily. Yeah. I
Dan Ryan: also, well, w when you say quick QSR, that quick service restaurant, quick service, we call that fast casual here, I think, is that the same?
Shaun de Vries: Um, probably slightly different elevations.
So you've got like a. Uh, fast food and then you've got quick service, which is slightly different. So you might go up to a counter and order. You might have some elements of table service, but probably not really. Um, and then you go to a premium, fast casual. So, um, fast, casual is more table service and a higher end product value.
You're probably more likely to pay. Um, you know, over 15 to 20 NOLs, uh, a main item, that kind of thing.
Dan Ryan: Right. And I guess, and for our listeners, I think [00:05:00] what's so interesting is like most of the world that I'm speaking to are people who are owning, operating, designing, and building hope, hotels and resorts, not so much on the restaurant side.
So I'm really intrigued, um, to learn more about. Open pantry consulting and then how that all led into the podcast. And when I doing, uh, the re the little bit of research I did on open pantry consulting, it just seems to me like you're coming in at a time of change within a restaurant. So you're coming in, you're seeing how it's operating, you're evaluating what the menu is, what the design of the overall place is, how the staff is trained, how the team, like how the team cares for others, and then really kind of.
But mixing it up and creating a new strategy and a new path
Shaun de Vries: forward. Yeah. That's a great way to, um, um, conceptualize exactly what I do. Um, so I've been, I've been in the industry for 25 years and been lucky to own businesses quite early in my career, like at, around the age of 21, 22. Um, have worked across bakery, [00:06:00] uh, across QSR and news, um, desert salads, um, all these different segments, coffee.
Um, so I've been very fortunate during my career to actually have a lot of different experiences. Um, also also work in different parts of Australia. So I'm originally from Adelaide or south Australia. So if you sort of got the map out, that is the middle, middle lower part of Australia very
Dan Ryan: far away, almost as far away as Perth is from it.
Shaun de Vries: Oh, Perth is the most, I don't know
Dan Ryan: how you got there. I've always wanted to go, but I don't know how to get
Shaun de Vries: there. Perth is interesting. Um, I lived in Perth as well, but, uh, Adelaide, if most people know things like the bras valley, if they really loved wine and those kinds of things, that's, that's where south Australia is.
Um, and then lived in Brisbane. So people would probably know Brisbane or gold coast and that kind of side of Australia. So lifted there for seven years and then did live in. Um, the most remote kind of city in the world, uh, who is pretty much their own country, um, over in Perth is very, very different. [00:07:00] So lived there for six months or so, and then came and lived in Melbourne, uh, seven years ago.
So most people know Melbourne for its coffee, it's laneway bars. Um, it's really great sporting culture. Uh, it's a really great place to be. And I decided to to seven years ago that I wanted to live and work here because. It is the real center of food in Australia. It's very much a rivalry between Melbourne and Sydney, but I find Melbourne just that bit more accessible.
Um, and I've really, really enjoyed it since I've lived here. And then the podcast sort of came out, you know, as you said, sort of five years ago, because I had friends who were asking me to sort of do a podcast and luckily. Um, Fundly as we talked before the podcast, and I'm like, I've also got a, you know, I've got a face for radio, right.
And I'm lucky to have a deep voice and that kind of stuff. And people said, well, why do you do, why do you do a radio show? And podcasting was becoming a lot easier then. So I just decided to talk to my friends in the industry, um, and [00:08:00] talk about their experiences and, and what they were seeing coming forward, because I knew from.
Informal kind of learning as we call it. Um, and people passively listening to podcasts that would learn stuff and wouldn't never realize it just from other people's experiences and yeah, I've just enjoyed it. So now we're at 190 odd shows. It's a, it's a really good podcast and, you know, I enjoyed doing it and we're going to move to another level this year, which is really exciting.
So
Dan Ryan: I also love, like, obviously I've, I've been in my industry for about the same time as you in the hotel side for about 25 years. And I'm not, I don't consider myself an expert in hospitality at all. Like I'm more of just a super fan and I love this industry. And I think one of the things that I love so much about it is it's all about interpersonal relations and empathy and, and how you make others feel.
So it's almost as if I just know it when I feel it. And I don't know. I, and I, and I also think it's all just really transferrable to so many other [00:09:00] industries so that while you're in this restaurant niche or I'm in a, in a hotel niche, It's all about making sure that everyone's having the best possible journey.
Right. So, and I'm curious because in, on the, on the restaurant side of things, it's really, I mean, it's a, it's a taste journey. It's a service journey, it's all of these things. And so with. You know, expert, hotel hat on, how do you define hospitality as a, as a restaurant tour?
Shaun de Vries: I think like anything in hospitality is collection of moments, So we're fortunate in the hospitality industry. And I see, I see it as true fortune. The fact that we get to share some of the most important peoples, uh, some of the most important moments in people's lives. And that might be. a surprise engagement. There might be a birthday. There might be some other form of celebration.
It might be a first date. It might be a wedding, like all these [00:10:00] different things that people in trust us with is really, really important when you think about it as a, as a hospitality professional. So I sort of say it. Oh, now I've totally forgotten where I was going with that.
Dan Ryan: You know what? Speaking of journeys, like I was just taking me on a full-on journey and it is 6:00 AM in the morning for you.
So everyone should just know that.
Shaun de Vries: Yes. Um, I think, I just think as a hospitality professional, like you just have to be really humbled. Like, I, I love what you said about empathy there. Like being humbled and being empathetic to what we're actually doing in this role, because it's exciting and fun. The fact that as a hospitality professional, you get to work in these venues every day.
You get to have fun, new excitement. You get to stand shoulder to shoulder with great people every single day, but then dealing in these great. Uh, events in people's lives, I [00:11:00] think is a real responsibility. And I know that people in the industry really take that on board because they can see the kind of excitement, the kind of love that that actually generates.
Dan Ryan: And I love how. I guess we all choose these vocations that were PA or not all of us. I think we all should choose vocations that we're all passionate about, but I feel like what I'm getting from you and from our previous conversation, these really small moments, which could just seem like these inconsequential and transactional events, they carry so much more weight.
Right. And there is, you said there's a responsibility. That you're almost like timestamped in our short lives, in a memory. Right. And however, that, that's also what I love about the built environment as well. We are creating these spaces where so much work goes into them. Oftentimes it goes unnoticed by people, but when they have a very important Rite of passage or whether it's a business meeting, a family vacation, [00:12:00] you're kind of stamped into their memory and it's like this, um, I don't know, just a very.
Kind of rich and important and impactful, um, moment that we all, or at least I really take a lot of importance or give a lot of importance
Shaun de Vries: to. Yeah, I totally agree. Can I, can I share a story with you Dan Cardi moment? So I was working for a bigger burger chain here called grilled, which is like a gourmet, um, Burger chain.
I'm trying to compare something to like in the U S but it's a bout 120, 130 odd outlets around, around. Um, 204, 208 sort of restaurant. We were very close to a hotel, um, in this physical venue that I was working in, in Brisbane. Uh, it was a quiet Saturday. We actually had quiet weekends, which was a bit, it was a bit weird now it's where, okay.
But our days are really, really quiet just for where we were. We were sort of in this city and we really need very many, um, uh, places of [00:13:00] residence anyway, very close to our hotel. So we used to get a lot of weddings and that kind of stuff that would happen on a weekend, obviously. We had very quiet lunchtime.
Uh, and we had a broad coming who I knew, obviously wasn't in a bridal gown yet, but had a bridal party come in and they were, they wanted lunch right before their wedding. And we got to talking and saying, okay, well we're getting married today or whatnot. And then they go to their takeaway and that kind of stuff.
And then, and then left, obviously super excited and that kind of thing. And we had a bit of time, like from a staffing point of view, like we had a bit of time and my staff said to me, like, what can we do? What do you think we should do something a bit more special because they're getting married and we obviously know where the hotel is and that kind of.
So then what we decided to do was get a card that was at the news agency. It was really, it was actually not a fantastic card, but we made it fantastic. Um, and then got every single person in the restaurant to write it and say their best wishes for that, [00:14:00] for that couple moving forward. And then also gave them like a hundred dollar gift card.
Right. And basically said, Look, your last meal as a single person was on us. Can we make your first meal as a couple on us as well? And just made it really, really joyful in a way. Um, and then also got a bunch of flowers and then deliver that to the hotel and said, well, you know, this, uh, bride has come down, we know our name.
Like, can you please give this to a room? And that kind of stuff. And this was in 2009. So it was just to start a Facebook ad. So we had the next day. So I was excited. I was glad we did something good. The staff were, and just next day, um, she put on Facebook, it went absolutely ballistic, um, viral campaign, like a viral post.
Um, just for the fact that we did something for the pure love of it, because we [00:15:00] wanted to actually share in that moment with her. And I knew. That would be a really important story that I could continue to tell from that burger restaurant that, you know, could have done nothing, but we could have done nothing, but we decided to do something that was elevated in order to make their day 2% more important.
Right. But we don't know that that might've been their first date that they went on. Right. Um, so those kinds of little things that I think even in any point of hospitality, that we have an opportunity. To actually deliver a moment and experience, which is elevated if we want it to, it's just us up for us as hospitality, experts, and professionals, to actually listen to the guests, listen to the customer and try and elevate that experience for them.
And
Dan Ryan: it was totally a small moment. You didn't know what the outcome was going to be, but it was your intention. And I think that's like when you talk about empathy and intention and appreciation and gratitude, It doesn't require an act of [00:16:00] Congress or parliament in Australia that to make all this happen, it really just takes being present and mindful and seeing what's happening in front of you.
That's an amazing story. And I'm, I'm glad it went viral because I think we can all learn from these little small moments, these small inconsequential moments that are just kind of just passing us by and like, Are those bookends or those milestones and signposts that people really remember in their life.
Shaun de Vries: Yeah. I totally agree. Like I think they're just, I think he's just great. Like when I think about that moment and that was like 12, 12 odd years ago. And like, even me retelling that story takes me back to that moment and how I felt and what my staff were asking me. And that's a cool thing. Like there's not many jobs.
I don't think like I've done hospitality pretty much all my life, except for three months, right. Where I did something else and then decided to come back. Um, there's not many jobs [00:17:00] that, that can happen in that way. I don't think that's really super.
Dan Ryan: And, you know, and thank you for sharing that story because just hearing that story also, it makes me think about, Hey, what's, uh, it's inspiring to me and I'm sure other listeners about what, what they can do, you know, how can they have an impact on someone's life like that.
Cool. Um, I think, you know, thinking about your, um, the open pantry business, um, open pantry consulting, I'm envisioning. Kind of a Gordon Ramsey thing, but with not as much yelling.
Shaun de Vries: So it's so many people who say to me it's really funny or do. Uh, not more, uh, not, not that I've turned 40. Um, basically what we do is we help, we help hospitality businesses, either startup or scale-up.
So people will come to us with a concept and go, Hey, I want to, I want to do this [00:18:00] particular concept of this particular part of dining or coffee. Um, uh, I need to talk and find a venue, or I need to set up an operations. Um, for this, I need to set up a supply chain. Um, can you help me that? Or they've got to two or three venues really well, they've got some nuts and bolts about what's happening.
Usually it's from, you know, usually it's by osmosis, but they've set up a really good brand, um, a decent supply chain name to get it better and we help them try and scale it if they want to go to eight or 10 or wherever they want to take their brand. So, yeah.
Dan Ryan: Um, I think that oftentimes we can all learn from.
The projects that have had the biggest impact. So like, if you were to go back in your catalog of past projects, what was that? I love that it's two different trails, right? It's it's uh, from a startup side or the scale up side. So. Tell me, I guess, on the scale upside, someone who had something reasonably good.
What was some of the [00:19:00] things that like, if you were to take a little wing of bat or I have new to, or whatever you use in your, in your potion and your process to like, what was the most impactful or most out outperforming, um, outcome that you can recall?
Shaun de Vries: So I got asked pretty early on in, in a state of open pantry consulting to actually bring a fried chicken brand from Singapore into Australia, and then launched their three venues into Australia. But we needed to test it with the first one in Victoria, um, in Melbourne. Um, and we had to take this concept from Singapore and then slightly molded and change it.
So it was coming from. A more fast food kind of level driven, uh, experience in Singapore, smaller venue to make it a bigger size venue in Australia. Uh, and then also change the product range. So obviously it's a fried chicken, like, you know, it's going to be chicken, but we needed to change it [00:20:00] from, uh, what was not a free range product or a free range product.
So basically changed it to, uh, a more high quality spec product. Uh, we also brought alcohol into that. Um, and then bottled drinks in that brand. So it had, it had a fountain drinks. So I'm trying to think of what you call it in the S um, yeah. Um, so yeah, so elevating everything there, um, but also not losing its soul.
So losing its essence of what actually made it a successful brand in Southeast Asia around 15 restaurants at the time when we opened it here in Australia, um, and make sure the branding was actually right for the Australian markets. There's differences in nuances in every single region. And even those four in Australia are really, really close.
Like there's, there's a lot of differences between what each market can actually deliver on and talk about. So that was probably the most exciting thing, having that, bringing that to Australia and then being on that project for over 12 months, launching [00:21:00] their three stores, hiring a hundred odd staff. Um, and really been on that journey with them from the start of what they were doing and seeing empty shell restaurants, getting them figured out, making sure they're running correctly, operating correctly, um, and literally bringing every single team member along the journey, uh, was a big, big experience for me, but super exciting.
Like we actually had to fly once we recruit. The core team, like the management team and the supervisors and those kinds of things in Australia, then we trained them in Singapore because obviously we didn't have a restaurant to train them in the, to them up in Australia. So actually coordinating people in Singapore, making sure that they enjoy their experience over there as well.
So coordinating it for may coordinate two markets. Um, so I think making sure that brand was successful in Australia for the time that it was here. Um, and. And making sure it fit the market was probably the most important thing. And along the journey now I've had so far. And what was the name of that [00:22:00] restaurant?
That was four fingers, crispy chicken. So they're still active in Singapore and in Thailand, Vietnam, I'm doing really well. I had a buyout here in Australia, but, um, but yeah, not, it was, it was just a really important journey of my career for that sort of 12 to 58 months that I was at all. I
Dan Ryan: think looking at Australia as, you know, just being on the doorstep of Asia, right.
You're it's all right there. And I think about, you know, Singapore is such a, kind of an incubator and a, a crucible for all these different cultures and ideas and cuisines. And then I'm envisioning it coming down to Australia. You kind of put your own spin on it, make it Australian, but. You know, it's still aligned with, with Singapore.
Have, have there ever been a, has there ever been a project like that where it's come from Asia down into Australia and then you, it turns into something a little bit newer and then [00:23:00] slingshots back up into Asia to even more success.
Shaun de Vries: Oh, that's a great question. Um, there's not, there's not many it's interesting with, with Southeast Asian brands that come to Australia, like they either make it really.
Um, and we'll expand out to sort of 20, 30, 40 sites, or they'll really big throwback. Like sometimes there can just be a, not a cultural difference, just a difference in conversation and how you talk about our product. And sometimes that doesn't translate to Australia or they don't. Um, the other thing is the other thing is interesting and probably a bit different in Australia.
I've seen a lot of brands through this and when they come from overseas, they'll initially go to inner city market. So they'll, they'll, they'll do that. Push in the inner city first thinking that's going to get them credibility first we're often, depending on, depending on the type of brand, it's actually better to go out of suburban.
And then come into the city to make sure that it is a bit more [00:24:00] relevant, like in test and learn a bit more without being thrown to the wolves so quickly. And in a city markets here in Australia or in CBD or, or, um, yeah, CBD or downtown markets here in Australia. So, um,
Dan Ryan: you, you, you try and get Katherine Kim.
Shaun de Vries: That's a very good analogy, Dan, but that thank you for the sec. Yes. That's very important. Yes, Katherine Kim, that's exactly what I say to my clients. And, um, yeah, I just find it's an easy way to do it, right? Like it's usually cheaper lease like rent and all that kind of stuff. It's usually easier to get.
Um, in the outer suburban markets, not all the time, but it is, you can usually do a bigger footprint. You can usually do drive through like all these things that make it slightly easier and less risky testing it in outer suburban markets first. So, yeah, it's a really good idea. And
Dan Ryan: then if Katherine Kim do like it is it, you're not guaranteed success in the CBD.
Shaun de Vries: Absolutely. Especially [00:25:00] not now CBD and dads have markets. Right. I go, obviously go through a change around the world right now. Um, so I think,
Dan Ryan: but especially in Australia, you guys were really locked down in a major, major, major way. So, wow. I, I forgot about that. And that's why everything, especially Melbourne.
Yeah.
Shaun de Vries: Yeah. So we had, uh, uh, what's reported is one of the longest lockdowns in the world. Um, it's over, it was over 300 days over that two years. Um, you know, there was most periods of that. We weren't allowed to go more than five kilometers or 10 miles from our house. Um, you know, for reasons to leave home, like it was just, you know, it was just decimated and that's why the restaurant industry, as all industry, as all hospitality, people would know listening to this podcast around the world, Dan, like the industry has been decimated.
So it's in a market like Melbourne, like coming back from that has been very, very tough. [00:26:00]
Dan Ryan: Totally. And I feel like from the financial crisis, that whole tenure. Bull market, if you will, in hospitality and real estate and credit cycles and everything to COVID, you know, hospitality in from the financial crisis.
And then you go back before that, it's probably like September 11th in the U S anyway. And maybe before. I don't know, maybe some, some other finding it was another financial crisis before that in the previous cycle. But hospitality is always the one that gets stung the first, because that's where people start pulling back their expenditures.
What we're seeing in the U S market though, is that it's really it's. I think people might have many people have had their last straw and they just, it's so hard to get people to want to come back. In hospitality. Um, but one of the things that I'm seeing from just having all these conversations is it's such a great industry.
It's so transferable to anything, any other industry, right? Because you're teaching service and [00:27:00] empathy and like walking in someone else's shoes and delivering an experience and impacting people. But if people come into hospitality now, I would say from a career perspective, More than I think any other industry, it's a very steep trajectory on your career path right now.
Are you seeing that, uh, in Melbourne and Australia in general?
Shaun de Vries: Oh, most definitely. Like it's the best time to join the hospitality industry. Right. You're going to get, as you said, you got this steep learning curve. Is there like you're going to have the best opportunity that you ever had because there's so many opportunities that are, that are going wasted, right.
So therefore you're going to get paid the best that you ever have as well. Like I think the hospitality industry, especially here in Australia, like we're paid quite well. Um, anyway, but there are a lot of places that, you know, uh, weren't paying properly. And I think the industry has now realized that they need to pay high quality for high quality.
Um, and they're doing that because they, [00:28:00] because they don't have a choice and because they've woken up and realize that's the most important thing. So I think in turn with that, like a career in hospitality has never been a better time because you get all this opportunity across different departments and across different parts of the brand.
And, and when I think about starting when I was 16, like having the opportunity. Um, you know, being a bakery in ice product, and then, you know, after 12 months then start to do those and start to be a baker and all that kind of stuff. Like if I was doing that now and starting 16 now in the same career path, like that would probably be accelerated even more because it would need to be from a business perspective.
Right. So I think that's an important thing and a great thing. As long as their training systems around the native to independent to make sure we get really great quality training, because the biggest challenge, right. Is that if hospitality owners don't have their ducks lined in a row in regards to training development, they've, they've finally get all these [00:29:00] people come through and say, yes, I'm going to start working for you.
And this is what I'm going to get paid. And I feel really excited, but if there's not great training programs and an onboarding and all those kinds of things, especially in the first I've very much believed her in the first six weeks or so. And the appointment being positive and being exciting. Um, then they're not going to stay and there's, there's no point in bringing people on when it's so hard to bring them on right now, if they're not going to stay for very long.
So I just, the people who listened to your podcast and I just hope, they're definitely thinking about the training programs that sit underneath it as well. Not just the fact. It's so hard to recruit really great quality talent. Um, Yeah, I think it's going to be a challenge for a awhile.
Dan Ryan: How are you getting that story out?
Because I thinking about the training programs in particular, if you really have a dialed in training program, as much as we'd all like to say, Hey, I want you to work at this place forever and feel aligned. And people go, people do these other things. And I'm a big believer that if someone comes work with, with me, [00:30:00] I want them to become the best version of themselves so that they're armed to go do whatever else that they want to do.
On their career path. How are you, how are you guys getting that? How do you get that story out with your restaurants and your clients to tell them that this is the best time? And is it resonating or are you able to change your messaging for your clients and yourself to just draw and attract more people?
Yeah,
Shaun de Vries: I'd probably, I'd probably talk it about it a bit. Um, through social media, a tiny bit probably needs to talk about it more. Now that we're talking about it on this. Um, it's probably been a hard thing to talk about, you know, at the moment when, when there's so many challenges in the hospitality industry, sort of got to pick your battles, you know, and I know that it's very, very hard for people to recruit at the moment.
So you don't want to sort of hit them with this, make sure we got everything operationally, right. As well. Like you just need, like, hopefully people have been experiencing the industry, sort of know this kind of. In regards with my clients. It's honestly just telling them like, and it's [00:31:00] probably the point now where I'm able to have these open conversations because we deal a lot in people management and recruitment and onboarding and training and all those kinds of things, developing safe, operating procedures, SOP is, um, that I'm now having those conversations when I start to recruit.
Um, okay, well, we're gonna recruit for a venue manager or we're going to recruit for a, uh, a sous chef or. Something along those lines, right? The cafe manager, what is their first six weeks going to be like? And quite often they'll not have a really good path there. So we'll try to make sure it is a much, much better path to make sure that first six weeks is excitement and they're enjoying themselves.
And there's training then is underpinned and I've talked to, and there's a buddy system going on. Um, so it's really the point of recruitment now where before. Not really thinking about that as much or not having those conversations, but now because the cha the market is so challenging to [00:32:00] actually recruit great talent.
I'm actually having those conversations when I started to recruit. Right.
Dan Ryan: And then speaking in the world of restaurants, which I don't know very much about, but I'm hearing you say, like menu development, training, supply chain. Um, you know, design and lighting and execution, like of the built environment, all the standard operating procedures, um, of those big buckets, which do you think is your, like, what's your superpower amongst them?
Shaun de Vries: That's a great question. Um, yeah, I'd probably say I'd probably say the recruitment path and then, and then going into the training section. So. Um, very much, I've been really, really fortunate to end the fact that I've had a lot of different experiences with different brands before I started consulting.
Um, I became a business owner quite early, as I said at the start of the podcast. I think that taught me a whole heap. Um, I've been able to visually merchandise for the early part of my career, which is, you know, really made the rest of my career really, really, um, a lot, a lot easier. I think, I think visual [00:33:00] merchandising in retail food, like just helps people in hospitality.
You think about spaces a bit before. So I know I've got very good spatial awareness is in as in the energy, in a space, how it should move, how to flow, where customer flow is going to go, where staff flow is going to go. But I think if I think, and supply chain, obviously I've been involved in supply chain for a long time and making sure people get the best deals and the best range.
But I think if I think about my love, it's making sure that the best quality talent are in the best quality spaces. So make sure they have a great career. And that probably goes back to may want to leave a legacy because when I started at 16 and I had this moment where I had a really, I had a fantastic employer, like, I don't think I could have had a better employer, but there was also a moment that sort of 17, 18, where I was about to walk out and leave.
And if it wasn't for a conversation I had with my boss, um, where he really care. I probably would have left the industry. So I [00:34:00] think about those kinds of things a lot. And, and what do I want to leave on? What legacy do I want to leave on the industry? And it always comes back down to people and not just spaces that we actually work in.
I mean,
Dan Ryan: cause it's, it's like if, if you're impacting these people and helping them be the best versions of themselves, right. Then they go on and do the same to someone else or they're there. Well, you hope, but the odds are they're going to pay it forward. And if you really connect on that level of care, And empathy.
Um, I think it's a real recipe for success. When you go buy, like I'm picturing you covered in flour at 16, working in a
Shaun de Vries: bakery
Dan Ryan: who was, who was that mentor? Who was that employee? The boss of yours. What was his name or her
Shaun de Vries: name? Uh, Greg. Greg. What's he up to. Uh, he's doing a bit in hospitality. He's more into, there's a sports team here called the LA crows, sorry.
In south Florida called the LA CRO. So he's deeply involved with them, um, and, and does a lot of menu [00:35:00] development and that kind of stuff for the players, which I think is pretty freaking cool. Um, so he does a little of that kind of stuff because he's always been a bad, um, IFL, Australian rules, um, fanatic Aaron here in Australia.
So, yeah. Got it.
Dan Ryan: And then if you think about that moment, when you were going to leave. Right. And then he said something, what did he, what did he say? Well, like walk us through the conversation. What w what helped him? What, what, how did he
Shaun de Vries: impact you? So I guess to give you a bit of, a bit of understanding.
So I had a, I had a friction with a, with a baker who was a lot older than me, and he would be jealous of me to some extent, cause I was, I was sort of moving up the rank, I suppose, a bit, a bit quicker, more, more quick than he wanted me to be. Cause he was annoyed. And so there'll be this friction every time that we'd work together, uh, or most times that we've worked together and I sort of just got sick of it and I'm like, well, I don't want to deal in this workplace anymore.
If I'm going to be talked to by someone who's 20 years older than me in that way, [00:36:00] especially when you're working at two o'clock in the morning and three o'clock in the morning, it's not a fun way to start the day anyway. So I'd send something to, um, his wife, which was also a partner in the business, off the cuff.
And she knew that I was in. And then, and then she was in the bakery that day, then five minutes later, he rings me up and he says, Hey, are you free for lunch? And I said, sure, like, you know, I would have just gone to sleep. Um, but that's, that's cool. He's like, okay, well, and he took me out to this really, really great restaurant and he just talked me through, like he listened to me.
Right. It's listen to what the issues were. He validated what I was saying? He's like, yeah, I've seen that as well. Uh, and then he basically said to me, look, we think. You know, and it was good that he said the word way. Like we, as in he and his wife, Christine, think that you're a 100 employee. We know how important you are to the brand.
Your like the brand is more important than you, but you're really important to us. Um, [00:37:00] we want to see you succeed, give it another six months. I'll try and alleviate this issue that we've got with the other baker and talk about it with him as well. And that's what happened. Um, it kinda got worse before it got better, but I trusted the process and that baker left within the next six months.
Right. And then there was a lot of clear air for me to do what I needed to do. He bought another bakery I ran. And when it ran that bakery, um, at the age of 19, uh, you know, I had 20 staff underneath me, had full control and then went on to buy businesses.
Dan Ryan: Um, what I heard and there was this idea of just listening and the idea that he's saying, we, and he's really curious about your story.
And again, if I think back to my most memorable life experiences in the workplace, or while traveling, it's always, when the people are listening and they hear me and they might get that [00:38:00] card and put in the hunt, the gift card. You know, say, Hey, this is your wedding day or, or whatever, but you have to listen.
And I think that's also, we were talking before we started recording about, you know, you've been doing this for awhile, I'm new at this medium, but I love it so much because I'm just learning. And I'm just curious. And if I'm doing my job. I'm using my two years and one mouth proportionally and just really listening and learning from you, just me personally, but then everyone else that's listening is learning as well.
And I'm getting that feedback. And I, and I love it. And I think as we look at hospitality and just making others feel comfortable, it's really hearing them and like opening up that heart to just being empathetic with them and learning and making everyone feel.
Shaun de Vries: Yeah, I think that's probably what I've stumbled a bit on today's podcast because I've had to talk a lot more than I normally do Dan, when I've got a microphone in front of me.
So I find it, I find that [00:39:00] listening and, and funnily enough listening was not, it's only been part of, sort of what I do and what I'm really proud of. Probably the last 10 years. Like even that bravado of me, you know, owning a bakery and then only a second bakery quite early on. I've got this male ego that like, I'm going to smash it.
Right. So I've just got an, I stopped listening to people. And then I just started talking because, you know, I'm the boss here and I'm going to talk and you're going to do what I say. Like I went through this weird period of just, um, working a lot, working a hundred hours a week, not really caring, um, as much as I should have and all this kind of stuff until I needed to.
And then the last 10 years, I think I've just had this bit where I've just gone. Well, it's, I'm going to learn so much more. If I listened to what the problem is rather than tell you what then what the solution is, because there may be, I can come to another solution. That's going to help the situation even more.
And I think that's where I feel quite sometimes guilty beta podcast hosts. And I'm sure you might feel this as well because [00:40:00] we're listening to people's stories and people's journeys. And when you've done a lot of that, like you like wow. Taking on all this information of all these amazing people and it's just fantastic.
To have those conversations. That's probably why you're addicted to it now. Right? Like you're just having these amazing conversations all the time and learning and listening to people that you might not have done before. And I think that's just an important thing of doing this kind of things.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. And it's also the, this podcast thing, like in the longer form conversation where, okay.
You go into a restaurant and you're having a conversation and you're learning from. But I, you know, I'm getting interrupted by like what I like water sparkling or still, what would you like to drink? What's your order and it's, you don't really get to sit in this place of exchange. Yes. And, and again, like, again, it's called defining hospitality, but like, I feel like this is also a part of hospitality.
Right. And it's just like a new thing for me. And I think for a lot of people. [00:41:00] Just kind of fuels so many ideas and, and, and on the feeling guilty side, in a way I'm hearing this it's impacting others. I don't really feel that guilty, but my goal was, I want to write a book, so I've already have all the chapter heads and all that.
And, um, but I think it will just kind of fuel into this whole thing that it will leave an impact. Like I forgot what you said. You wanted to leave a legacy. And w like we're in this really small industry. And I think that no matter what industry, big or small, we all have the opportunity to leave a legacy, to impact someone else to really pay it forward.
And, uh, I dunno, it's just, it's cool. And I, and I, I can only imagine how weird it is for you. Who's the interviewer to be interviewed.
Shaun de Vries: Yes, yes. Yeah. It's quite odd. That's why, that's why I have really short answers then, because I'm not so used to just being the host and that kind of stuff. But I, I think going back to what you just said there, I think we need to understand this hospitality experts, like how [00:42:00] important employing the people that we do is, and how important those first couple of months are in people's breads because.
Uh, quite often with hospitality, we're taking people who are coming in from challenging environments outside of work who may be coming from, you know, um, bad relationships or, you know, those kinds of things. I've got a lot of challenges in the real, uh, the reason why they come into hospitality is because they want to be part of this.
They want to work side-by-side with someone, they want a community. They want a second family, like a lot of brands. We'll talk about them having a family environment regards to this staff. Right. Um, a whole lot of brands deliver on that, which is a fantastic thing. But the importance of training someone for the first time, like a young Shaun at 16.
To making sure that was a positive impact rather than negative impact is a big responsibility. So I think about that all the time, like how we're [00:43:00] impacting the people who are having their first job,
Dan Ryan: how did you choose baking at 16?
Shaun de Vries: I actually wanted to be a chef, so I wanted to be a chef at apprentice.
And I went, uh, I went to a major hotel, uh, when I was 15 and we basically did a lineup, you know, um, apprenticeships that they were taking on at that time. And then, you know, you'd, you'd go in, there'd be a hundred people turn up and they'd sort of take 20 or 30 or whatever. And then I didn't, uh, didn't get a callback and they didn't want to, uh, take me on, I think I was just really, really nervous and that kind of stuff.
Uh, and there was a, there was a bakery chain, it was a retail bakery chain that was opening up around the corner from me. And I, I sort of thought, well, I want to be a chef, but it's going to be really, really hard unless I do an apprenticeship and my parents, that women who finished school and that kind of stuff.
So maybe I could do this baking thing on the weekend and sort of learn elements of hospitality. Cause I really love cooking. I like to bacon, you know, I bake cakes and all that kind of stuff. And um, and that's sort of [00:44:00] how it just started. And. Biking's really underwriters like baking bread and pastry.
Like I can't do, Ben was very, very well. Um, but baking bread is really underrated and the fact that it's just so therapeutic, right? Like I think a lot of people realize this during the lockdowns of 2020 and, you know, started sourdough baking and all this kind of stuff. Um, just having something that is pretty much a science expense.
Go over this period of time and all these elements that you've got to do in order to make sure that it ends up the right way. Uh, I think is fantastic, you know, and it probably suited me at that time in this sort of black and white environment. The fact that I had to work to a recipe, if, if, you know, if I didn't work to that recipe, then it wouldn't work out the way I wanted it to.
So I need to think about what that recipe was first.
Dan Ryan: And I think that, you know, baking is probably. But sustained humanity from the very beginning of when we first became people, right? And there's this total idea of warmth and smell and hearth, [00:45:00] right? That to me embodies hospitality. And it's the reason why I was asking is, I don't know, just reading magazine articles or watching TV.
You see all these people that really had these corporate jobs. They hated, they hated. Um, but they were just grinding it out. But so many of them, their dream was to become a. Right. And then you hear the different stories of, okay, well, I'm going to follow that dream. And then they're like, oh my God, I didn't know it involved getting up at two in the morning, but how to do all this.
And then, so then they start, but they love it. They're passionate. And then they figured. As far as going and building the team, it's like, okay, well, some people love getting up at two in the morning. Like that there's a whole, I worked for a construction company when I was out of college and I got put on a seismic retrofit in San Francisco and I was working the night shift, which was so weird to me, but I would go to the supermarket, like, you know, three or four or five in the three to five in the morning, whenever work was over.
And there was a whole other world of people that were there and I'm [00:46:00] sure many of them were.
Shaun de Vries: Yep. A hundred percent. Uh, when you find out that as a baker, that all your friends are either security, guards or nurses, um, you realize you're in this, this pocket of the industry that is, uh, is really quite weird, but exciting at the same time.
Right. And the thing I like about bakeries and baking, and I didn't realize this at the start is that people come to you every day. Right. Very much like a cafe, right. Cafes and bakeries, a very similar head spot. So many of them together, but the fact that you get to be part of someone's life nearly every day, It's such a responsibility, but such a cool thing, but the amount of kids I've seen grown up dermatan Buddybank reason and people you've heard of people's lives in a weird kind of way.
Like just for two minutes a day, I could just slicing a loaf of bread or as she's serving him something from the cabinet, it's a really fricking cool thing, you know? Um, I think it is anyway. [00:47:00] So, so that's why I sort of love that I fell into bakeries rather than it sort of. Rather than any other way. I'm very, very glad I didn't become a chef to start.
Yeah.
Dan Ryan: And when you were working at two, would you, would you be up, would you be up all day and then go there and then sleep after? Like, what was your, what was your like, uh, your sleeping schedule?
Shaun de Vries: It depends on, it depends on the shift that I was doing. So I'd either have like a 12 or 1:00 AM, 2:00 AM shift, or you'd have like a late shift, which would be a 5:00 AM shift.
Right. So if I was doing a 5:00 AM shift that I'd work till one o'clock 1:00 PM. That I would come home and I'd usually stay up until nine o'clock or so, and then I'd get up at four 30 and then go to work. But if I was doing a sort of 12 to eight or something like that, then I'd come home. I'd sleep straight away for about two to three hours.
Then I'd get up, have lunch, go about the day. And then I'd go back to bed probably about eight o'clock. So yeah, you never get like eight hours sleep, which is always the challenge. But, um, and sometimes I would get like, [00:48:00] especially when I was owning two bakeries, like half a day, Um, and I'm not even joking.
Um, but, but yeah, like it was pretty often for me to sort of get five hours between shifts, which was always the biggest challenge, especially when you're a young guy and you're trying to keep a relationship down and all these kinds of other things you want to do and go to parties and go to clubs and all these other things, but you just get by.
Right. Um,
Dan Ryan: so as you're, you know, Australia is opening up. You have new projects happening. You've got your podcast, like what's exciting you the most about the future. Now
Shaun de Vries: I'd say probably what's excited me the most is hopefulness. I feel we've got a real big opportunity to recreate the industry in a even more positive way.
Um, and bring on really great quality talent into the, into this industry for a long time. And I think there are people that have stayed around in the hospitality industry really want to see. And I think they've got an opportunity to really build the foundation of a really [00:49:00] strong industry in Australia.
Um, Australia's really fortunate in that we get paid appropriately and, and, and those kinds of things that we, we have. Yeah, just a really great trajectory here in Australia. But the American market, especially is more career driven. You get a lot of people who stay in the industry for a long, long time.
Whereas Australia, you don't have that as much. And I think now we have an opportunity to really think about not only really great quality pay, which we do in Australia, but also great quality training systems and a really great employee experience, um, coming through. So I'm excited for that. Uh, I think there's going to be really a lot of really great, cool brands that are coming through, especially in that outer, a suburban kind of market, which now you've got to work from home market in a CBD market.
Not working for the CBD or the downtown every, you know, five days a week, let's just call it the Katherine
Dan Ryan: Kim market.
Shaun de Vries: Okay. Now the Katherine Kim market, like it's really exploded, right? Like now you've got all [00:50:00] these, um, outer suburban markets, which are really, really exciting doing really great quality hospitality.
So I'm excited for where that's going to go. I think I'm excited for things like delivering. Um, options and where that's going to go to robotics, like is so much more I'm excited about for the hospitality industry. I think it's a, I think it's a great time because there is so much change and it's been needed for a long time.
So I'm excited to see that change come through. Yeah.
Dan Ryan: In the, on the delivery side, it's something that I missed so much. Cause we lived, you know, I raised my kids in New York city in Manhattan and then with the pandemic, we moved up to Connecticut. So about an hour away, we're not too far, but the, uh, I took for granted so much.
What could just show up at my door in like 30 minutes? Oh my God. It, um, I miss it. So, so, so much. Um, there's so many great things about the lifestyle change and everything else as well. But I think on the food front, God, it's just [00:51:00] such an incredible, it was a different experience. Every single.
Shaun de Vries: Yeah, I think that's what, that's what makes me stay in Melbourne for the moment.
I'm really worried about living Melbourne because the coffee scene is just incredible here. We're so blessed with an amazing coffee sane, um, to leave that up, be really, really concerned. So let's see what I do on the coffee.
Dan Ryan: A flat white. Is that from New Zealand or is that
Shaun de Vries: Australia? Australian it's Australia?
Yes. Okay. So
Dan Ryan: whenever I'm with an Australian or New Zealand, they all are New Zealand or they always order a flat white. Sometimes my wife water, a flat white, I just like black coffee. What the hell is a flat white?
Shaun de Vries: Oh, it's basically it's basically a latte was not as much FOMO. So it was basically flatter.
So you still have, you're still happy, you know, cram at the top. It won't be nearly as nearly as prominent. So it's this flatter so that it's taken off yes. With a palette.
Dan Ryan: Well, [00:52:00] that's the other, the coffee scene here is not so great either. So really? Yeah. I think it's a real, um, to have a really great coffee shop somewhere around where we are, I think is so needed and, uh, it just doesn't exist.
Shaun de Vries: Yeah, right. Melbourne coffee scene is very much like Portland. Um, it's kind of hip circle, like a lot of Stumptown. Yes. Very, very cool coffee bars, you know, a lot of filter, um, a lot of pour overs, like. We're just blessed to have really great quality coffee. Like, so yeah, my
Dan Ryan: old department was across from this place Grumpy's, which had the best coffee and then my office was right next to Stumptown and I would just go there all the time.
And again, you know, you talk about the, the knowing people at a bakery or a cafe every day. Like I just remember having [00:53:00] just really awesome life conversations. My coffee guys that I would see every single day. And I miss that point of connection.
Shaun de Vries: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the good thing. That's probably why seeing some Australian cafe, same kind of coming through into America as well.
Like I think most Americans would really love this sort of Australian sort of inaccurate and how we go about things and we're a bit laid back and I think that works in cafes. So that's why saying sort of primary pain in Portland. And now go to Texas. And you're obviously saying Bluestone lane, which is headed up by Nick stone, which is, which is exploding in the U S and the cafe scene as well.
So I think that's the exciting thing about what we can. You know, give to Americans as well as this amazing cafe saying that we've got in Australia and bring that to bring that to you. I'll bring it. We could
Dan Ryan: use it here in Southern Connecticut. So of us love to take that conversation offline. Uh, uh, I think it would be great.
Um, okay, so last question, I'm talking to [00:54:00] you now, you said your.
Shaun de Vries: 41 0 40, we went okay.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. So 41 year old, Shawn, you teleport back in time to 16 year old covered in flour. Sean, what advice do you give yourself?
Shaun de Vries: I'd probably tell myself to be more patient. And I think this is probably the case for a lot of young males, is that you want everything yesterday. Um, and I think I needed to just trust in the process of baking. Actually the actual theory of baking actually was how I should live my life a bit more. So the fact that it is slowed down, it's methodical, it's thought about, but things will change, you know, seasonality, changes, bread, and all that kind of stuff, which is important.
So you had to be ready for that. And I think I wasn't as ready as I could have been if I, if I really look back a bit [00:55:00] critical, but I think patients was the most important thing. And probably what we talked a bit about before Dan was listening. Right. So I think I need to listen more than I talked. Um, unfortunately I talked more than I.
And, uh, and just be aware of those around me more because sometimes you, you know, you always have the best experiences by listening to those around you and, and hearing what they've got to say and, and what they're doing as well. Like you learn so much. So I think that's probably what I'd tell myself, but I'd tell myself that you're in for a long and great ride.
So just hold on
Dan Ryan: and just be curious.
Shaun de Vries: Maybe more quiet. Yes. I'm talking.
Dan Ryan: Um, awesome. Now, Sean, how can people get in touch with you?
Shaun de Vries: Yeah, sure. Um, so probably two ways to check out what I'm doing. So open pantry consulting.com. If you want to, you know, anyone in Australia who wants to get a consulting work done for the hospitality? [00:56:00] And then principal hospitality.com.
So that use where the podcast leaves and you'll be able to see the old episodes and that kind of stuff and everything we put out, um, from a written standpoint as well. Um, and then you can hit me up on LinkedIn as well. So I'm pretty, pretty loud and vocal on LinkedIn. Um, and always happy for a chat. So wonderful.
Dan Ryan: Well, Sean, I want to say thank you again for your time. I mean, it's so cool to be talking to another podcaster and one was such a, I don't know, such an amazing life experience such as yourself.
Shaun de Vries: Thanks, Dan. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks. I have a meal. Oh, you're
Dan Ryan: very welcome. And I also just thank you to our listeners again.
The feedback I'm getting from all corners of the world, even though it's round is just amazing and surprising and humbling. So if this evolved your understanding of hospitality in some way, please share it with a friend and a thank you everyone. We'll see you next time.
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