Defining Hospitality

[00:00:00]
Dan Ryan: Today's guest is a ingenious hospitality thought leader. He's a hospitality champion as well. He's a lifestyle hotel advisor and entrepreneur. Currently, he's a principal at Fishtown Collective and HN Capital Partners. Ladies and gentlemen, Jeremy Salman.
Welcome. Jeremy.
Jeremy Selman: Thank you so much. How did you like the intro? I'm, I'm blushing. I, I'm not good with the compliments, so, uh, and apparently I'm not good with age. I like to think of a lot younger than, than what you, uh, Israel would suggest, but I, [00:01:00] I realize I'm no longer the youngest person in the room, so,
Dan Ryan: Yeah.
You know, I've been finding that out more and more. It's funny you say, It's been happening with greater and greater frequency. I make these pop culture references in meetings or whatever that I'm sure everyone knows, like something from Ferris Bueller's Day Off or Star Wars or, you know, it's just part of that like collective unconscious or consciousness.
And I just say it and then the, the kids look at me like a blank stare. I'm like, Oh my God, you have no reference. So it's a sign that I'm aging. Well,
Jeremy Selman: I, I, I like to believe we all are, Yeah, we're like fine wines. I mean, this, this industry does keep us young. I think it also tends to be a pitfall for a lot of, um,
Dan Ryan: as well, actually that is an amazing entry point.
This industry keeps us well, or keeps us young. So in my conversations with you and kind of seeing your career arc and journey. [00:02:00] There is a certain element of youthfulness that I think I really appreciate being in here. And I, I guess like we can just start off the bat with that. Like, the industry keeps us, keeps everyone involved in it.
Young, young, young, mind, fresh, new, always into the zeitgeist. But like, what is it that you love most about hospitality?
Jeremy Selman: I, I, what I love most about the type of hospitality that, that, that I do is that we're, we're touching all of the human needs, um, you know, for the period of time that the guest is with us. And that includes both waking hours as well as sleeping hours. Um, as, as the, as the hotel, va, as the hotel, we are impacting you.
Sight and sound and smell and taste and touch, and we really have the opportunity to, to provide a holistic [00:03:00] experience in a way that, you know, just dining doesn't, or a more limited service hotel would, you know, our, our goal is to offer a robust experience.
Dan Ryan: So in thinking about that robust experience, I mean the track record that you have and the brands that you've been a part of creating, like, I think in the lifestyle, independent boutique space, however you parse those out, I think you, those initiatives I think really changed the direct, uh, the trajectory of what those three nebulous parts of hospitality are.
So when you think about those senses of the sight, sound, taste, and touch, I know you have to account for all of them. Like what, Is there one sense in particular that, that you found the most meaningful in creating the nomads or [00:04:00] the lines or, or everything that you're up to now down in Fishtown? Like is there one of those you try and you, you hate, you weight more
Jeremy Selman: heavily?
Uh, I think it really depends on, on the, on the experience that we're trying to, to, to create. Those are not goals in themselves. They are tools that we can use or there are filter by which we make decisions so that we can ultimately produce emotion. And so the goal is emotion. So you know, if, if, if we're, if we want somebody to feel at, at home, you know, we may think about something in a way and, and amp up a, you know, a taste.
Or amp up a touch in a way that's different than if we want somebody to be thinking about, you know, fun and an evening experience. In which case maybe we amp up the sound a little bit. You know, a [00:05:00] lot of what home is about is quiet and calm. A lot about what going out is about, is about, you know, kind of energy and noise.
You know, when we step out of our, our homes, we're, we're engulfed in sound that we, we don't otherwise experience when we close the door. And so I think it really ends up being like, what, what, what is the goal from an emotional standpoint, from an experience standpoint? And that, and those are levers, like those senses or levers that we can adjust to kind of produce different emotions and different experiences.
Dan Ryan: So it's interesting in that many of the conversations that I have on defining hospitality, you know, it has to do especially on the, the built environment and creating a built environment. It's, okay, what is a thesis? What are you trying to accomplish? And. A lot of it is how you make others feel, right?
That's coming up a lot. But I love almost, I think what's unique about what you're saying now is that to come at it with what [00:06:00] emotion you want to evoke as the thesis and then building into it. Like, okay, so what kind of hospitality? Cause hospitality is multifaceted, it applies to everything. Um, but I love how you're setting it up about like, what's the emotion that you want to evoke.
So as we look to your, to, like on your career journey, where you came from, one of the things I'm most impressed with by the projects that you've worked on is you've kind of helped reestablish neighborhoods, and I know that you've done that in nomad in some cases establish so reestablish or establish, So there's like the nomad, which really it, it plopped down there.
It created a whole new buzz in that kind of midsection of Manhattan down, you know, I think at the line in, in dc the line in la, um, it just kind of bri breathe new life into those areas. Um, and then you were telling me a little bit about Fishtown down in Philly. [00:07:00] Um, how do you go about choosing and invigorating these, these neighborhoods?
But I, I will say it's not like in these properties, it's not like a spaceship has landed into some foreign area. I think that you've also done a really good job of like, for instance, engaging doorman at no matter down at Perla that, I forget his name. He was amazing. But it's like, everyone's kind of like, Well Eddie, he's amazing.
He was so cool. Yeah. But, but that's not just a new initiative. I feel like there's been elements of that through all the hotels that you've done where it's like, not just how you. Bring people in to work there, but also welcome people in kind of off the street, be like, Hey, come check this out. Um, how do you go about selecting those, those areas and like, I don't know if you can give your whole secret recipe, but like, it's amazing the impact that those properties have had over those areas.
Jeremy Selman: You know, it, it's, it's [00:08:00] tough. It feels very intuitive, you know, when, when it's happening and then after the fact it feels very obvious. Um, and so, you know, I think it's, I think there's a, there's a, a term of art and y called sspa, which sometimes is a bad thing. And sometimes it's a good. But you know, I, I think the idea of like having the chutzpah, um, to, to kind of enter this neighborhood, which feels kind of obvious, right?
You, you take nomad, uh, in the neighborhood is, is sort of a perfect example. You have amazing building stock. It, it was a designated historic district. It sits in between, um, Midtown Manhattan and downtown Manhattan. And, you know, I think most of our listeners probably understand the geographic dynamics of Manhattan.
Everything is really close together. Um, you know, in a way that other cities feel much more spread out in terms of density. Like it just, in hindsight, it's just so obvious. You just have to sort of take the leap and [00:09:00] say, Look, if we, if we, if we take this step, the other things are going to follow. Um, and the Nomad district was really about the ace, which also I was, you know, one of the developers on as well as the nomad.
And it was, it was that culmination of those two that really kind of, That was really the catalyst. It was, Yeah. You know, we engaged with a, it was a value price point, and then we stepped it up with Nomad. Um, but in hindsight it's like, yeah, of course. That that area is going to be ripe for, you know, for hospitality.
And
Dan Ryan: then I, I think also I, I, I neglected to bring up, uh, the freehand as well, where, okay, so there's this kind of new, I don't wanna put it in the micro hotel box, but it's like that newer, like smaller footprint, smaller rooms for people. Mm-hmm. . But I think in, in many cases, what I saw there in kind of a, an outlying neighborhood, right?
Mm-hmm. , not [00:10:00] only did you attract a different demographic, most of those more unique type properties, or, I don't wanna say unique, but just that kind of model. You guys really turned up the volume on f and b in that area. And I actually, and maybe that's what it is, uh, in a, in many ways, all those properties, like there's some pretty incredible f and b where it's like, you don't want the hotel guests, you want everyone from outside to come in.
Jeremy Selman: Yeah. And I, and I think that's, uh, we, we didn't originate the idea of f and b, I think we just heavily invested in it and really invested in partnership over, over doing it ourselves. I mean, Ian and Andre were, were, you know, great pioneers of the importance of f and b to the, you know, the holistic, uh, experience.
They tended, you know, Ian had some, had some liquor license issues he had to address, but they tended to be, you know, highly in control [00:11:00] of those of those experiences, either directly or through, you know, or through intermediaries. Whereas I think we were much more embracing of. A partnership, but the idea was there, you know, the, the rooms are about people from, from out of the city.
And the f and b was about a place where travelers and locals could come together. In places like New York and LA and Miami, the bar to, to attract locals is very high. Yeah. And so you need to really invest it. You really need to commit to it. Um, I, I wanna come back to Freehand cuz I think the freehand idea, um, was rooted in something, uh, different than the, than the, than the micro room.
Um, and I think the micro, the smaller rooms, especially in New York because of the ability to, uh, rent, you know, rooms by the bed versus by the room, um, were impacted by [00:12:00] local regulation. But one of the things that we recognized in working with the standard and working with the a. Was that, you know, the, the people that made those brands successful originally were ultimately priced out once those brands became successful and scaled.
And
Dan Ryan: when you say the people that made them successful, the guests that, would the guests go give the money to these amazing, inventive and, um, I don't know, transcendent
Jeremy Selman: properties? Right? Yeah. You know, like take the, you know, the original ACE in Seattle was, you know, 20 up five odd rooms. There were shared bathrooms, like it was an amazing experience and it was at a price point that basically anybody could afford.
Um, what happens when Ace comes to, to New York and all of a sudden, uh, you know, all the bathrooms are suite and the room sizes are [00:13:00] larger and there's a real investment in, uh, in the public spaces. The people and, and, and the ADR or the price point starts decline. And so those really interesting creative people that were able to kind of stay and engage and, and create the energy of the place are no longer able to afford to really visit there or visit there as frequently.
And so we were thinking sort of fundamentally like, how do you continue to be accessible to this sort of broad audience and especially the younger, more creative people that are pioneering. And so our response to that was like, Look, let's create a product that no matter how much compression, how much business imperative will still be relatively affordable.
And so that was really the idea behind Freehand, was let's create a mechanism for allowing the, the, this experience [00:14:00] to remain accessible. To young creative people and
Dan Ryan: just from living nearby. I just remember it was a, it was a, I think when a hotel, like a, when one of those independent boutique lifestyle, I don't even know what the hell you call them anymore.
Like I don't, whatever that thing, those cool hotels right when they be I think you Yeah. When, when, uh, I feel like they've kind of, they've arrived when you, when you're in your na when you're nearby and people are like, Oh, I'm going to the freehand, I'm, And you just hear that it's kind of like when you're in Chicago on a nice day and people are like, everyone starts talking about, are you going to Wrigley tonight to watch a Cubs game game?
It's like, it's like a thing. It's not like, I don't even think they're going to the game to watch the game. They're going to this place
Jeremy Selman: to socialize and have fun. Yeah. I, I mean I, I, I love the, I love the Wrigley example. I mean, I think that is like quite literally [00:15:00] the aspiration. Um, But when, when the, when, when the hotel, when the experience becomes part of the local zeitgeist, um, that's when you know, you, you've sort of accomplished it.
Yeah. Um, whatever that is. And it, and so quite honestly, it becomes harder, the more luxury that gets introduced, the harder that is. Yeah. Um, and you know, and I think it really informed our approach to Nomad and, you know, it is now informing my approach to, to, to Perla. Uh, you know, the, the new brand we launched in, in downtown la.
So when
Dan Ryan: I saw you at Perla, there was this idea that some, I, uh, the general manager, I can't remember his name right now, Adam. Adam, he was talking about I, was it smart luxury or was some kind of luxury that was like a really cool mm-hmm. new concept or repackaged concept about what [00:16:00] luxury is. So, Can you walk us through?
I, I hope I didn't get it wrong. And can you walk us through what
Jeremy Selman: he was talking about? Yeah. I don't think we're, I don't think we're there where we sort of like named it, but it's, it's, it's the idea that we let the guest choose, um, choose, you know, their engagement. And so it's a luxury that is based on guest empowerment.
You know, if, if somebody wants to have a long engagement with, uh, a staff member, we can, we, we will offer that. If, if, if you have a business traveler that's moving quickly through a space and, you know, they're much more focused on, on convenience and paying for convenience and their view of luxury is like convenience, then we can offer that.
And it's a, and it's a real departure from the more traditional, um, The more traditional standards of luxury where, you know, the brand defines what [00:17:00] luxury means to that brand, and then the, then the delivery of service is done in a very kind of formulaic way. What we focus much more on is an ability to kind of read the guests and understand, you know, it's, it's always delivered with a smile.
Um, and, you know, that's really important. We're, we are definitively about inclusivity, not exclusivity, You know, there's, there's no, there's no aspect of that that we, that we really kind of aspire to. Um, but it is about empowering the guests to communicate with us either directly or through signal. Um, you know, what, what, what they need out of the experience.
And look, sometimes they don't know. And, you know, our, our, our team is really, you know, trained to, to deliver a great experience if, if we're not getting those signals. But it's really being aware and open to, you know, this is actually what the guests want and so let's, let's give the guests [00:18:00] what they want.
Um, and, and so like that, that's kind of how we view it. And I think that makes it much more like that's the lifestyle part of lifestyle luxury, because it's not our lifestyle. It's their lifestyle. Um, and I think, you know, the luxury in a traditional sense is, is about, you know, a very kind of rigid service model.
And, you know, people that like, that's like four seasons, like four seasons for that model. And people that, like Ritz Carltons like it for that model. And I have no fundamental criticism of it. Like they, they are, you know, they are, those can be wonderful experiences. Um, but I think what our focus is is really empowering the guests to communicate what like they want.
Dan Ryan: And then, so, so many of the conversations I've had here, one of the frustrations within hospitality is, I know that you said this formulaic application of luxury, but there seems to be so many disparate systems [00:19:00] within hospitality from, you know, the, the PMs to the crm, to the revenue. Like whatever, How do you, how do you properly engage with a guest to determine what it is that they want and remember it without being like
Jeremy Selman: intrusive?
Um, so I worked with a really wonderful. Hotel gm, um, named Meredith Morgan. Um, she was our original dental manager at Nomad. And, um, you know, the, the lesson that she taught me, and it was a really important lesson, is that, you know, in hospitality, you're, you're kind of hiring for the, the, the person, not the, not their experience.
Like you, you can teach anybody how to use the PMs, [00:20:00] You can teach anybody how to use the crm. You know, the, the real, the real art of hospitality is to actually be engagement. And so, you know, that process starts at higher. I think part of the reason why, you know, PERA's, TripAdvisor score. Have risen so rapidly.
And when I say rapidly, like they've risen in an unprecedented way in my experience. And I've, you know, I think Perla was my 22nd hotel opening, something like that. Um, is because I think we just did a really good job of hiring, you know, front desk people and managers that were really kind of tuned into the idea of, you know, let's really understand what the guest wants from an emotional sense, and let's try and engage with them.
And so, yes, we, you know, they're, I hope, I hope they're all very proficient, you know, pushing the buttons and, you know, booking the [00:21:00] thing and checking people in, but that's not really their function, you know, all of that can be so automated at this point. Um, it's actually about, you know, shaping the experience and, and understanding the guest.
I think a
Dan Ryan: lot, I, I love on the hiring part because it, it actually. That means you have a strong culture cuz you're attracting and deciding on people by who, what your culture is. Right. And it's like with Danny Meyer and his hospitality quotient, which, you know, there's ways to find that in who you attract and who you hire and who you retain.
Um, and I guess like, to tie it back, it's interesting that you were saying like the who you hire in doing custom furniture, we have like a real strict process on how we get everything figured out and approved. But that process can be. Annoying to some people sometimes. So when we kick off a project, it's we just ask like, [00:22:00] Hey, we're gonna send our weekly updates on this day, or can we do this?
And it's like asking those first couple of questions. You get a real great idea of like, Oh, don't send them on Friday, send them on Tuesday. I prefer to be spoken to or emailed or texted. We get to figure out in that first question about what they want. I'm sure it's very similar. Um, in the hotel operation
Jeremy Selman: side, it's exactly, it's exactly the same.
And thankfully the technology is sort catching up to it. So, you know, it used to be very challenging. Um, the pitfalls of texting with a guest. Mm-hmm. , We now have software that makes it very easy. If a guest elects the one, uh, elects to be communicated through text, we can easily do it. Something we discovered in, in, uh, at Freehand was a lot of overseas guests communicated us through Facebook.
No American guests would ever communicate with us through Facebook. For some reason, European guests, Felt really comfortable. And that was the form of engagement, post booking on how they would engage with us. So we just [00:23:00] had our, our guest service person start checking Facebook regularly and, and so, you know, it's just about listening more than anything else.
Yeah. Um, and I, look, it's been a long time, if ever, that I've ever hired personally a front desk agent. I've hired lots of GMs and senior executives, you know, at the hotel level, but within, you know, the operating businesses, I've hired lots of people and I focus some on the experience. I focus a lot on what people's interests are.
Um, because, you know, I think it says a lot more about, you know, how, how good a, you know, how good a champion for of lifestyle hotel they. You know, if people tell me they're not interested in food, they don't spend their time dining and they don't spend their time traveling or they don't love architecture, I, I'm like, Well, you know, why do you wanna come work for a hotel company?
You can go, you know, if you're building a building, you go build anybody's building. Chances are you'll [00:24:00] get paid more to do that someplace else than you'll do with us. You know? So for me it's really important, like, we're hiring a human, right? We're not hiring a skill set. We're hiring a human. And, and I, and our goal, and we, we don't, we don't know, we're not always successful with this, but our goal is that, you know, is that that idea permeates the entire, the entire, you know, work chart.
And so, you know, at Perla you will notice when you walk down the hallway, our, our housekeeping team will, will, will smile and say hello. And you know, quite honestly, that's something that the hotel team came, came to on their own. It was not a conversation that I had, but you know, it was the profound difference that I came to understand between, you know, hotels and freehand, which we, you know, which we championed really as much more of a, a shared accommodation or a hostel, you know, And the experience that I had in hospitals, um, was [00:25:00] that, you know, when you walk down the hall in a hospital, everybody says hello to you.
And if you walk down the hall in a hotel, if anybody says hotel to you, it says hello to you. You like, look at them like, you know, do I have something on my face? Or, you know, like, but so like, it's a, it's a, it's a profound cultural difference in the consumer. I've, we've now tried to introduce that in a very organic way to the hotel, right?
Cause that's about hospitality. It's about, you know, being a welcoming, inclusive environment. And if, if a housekeeper thinks, That their engagement with a guest is not important to that guest experience. We're missing something. Mm, I totally
Dan Ryan: agree. Um, I heard you say lifestyle a couple of times and just drop it there with confidence.
So I'm just gonna call 'em lifestyle hotels.
Jeremy Selman: Thank you. Yeah. You know, But thank you. Boutique. I've said boutique. And then, you know, we, we, we ha we did a, this great partnership with MGM Resorts and that hotel was, uh, 2,700 rooms [00:26:00] and, and, you know, and then lifestyle just seemed like the, the right word. I, we stretched it with the lines when we were creeping up the 400 keys.
But like, when, when we got to 2,700 keys, lifestyle felt like, like the right one. Well, you
Dan Ryan: know, on the lifestyle thing, I could also say like, my dad traveled a lot. He was a, he, he was a, he sold cosmetic bags and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. . But he, um, he would always stay at Marriott Courtyards. He liked them because no matter where he was, he always knew the iron would be where it would be.
The sink would be where it be like he just liked that it's not me, but that's his lifestyle. So in, in, in some way, you could say that Courtyard is a lifestyle hotel because it caters to my dad who really liked having iron in the same place everywhere he stayed.
Jeremy Selman: Look, I mean, I think that was ultimately, uh, um, I think that was ultimately the appeal of, of the brands for so long was, you know, in a, in a, in [00:27:00] an opaque world, they offered a lot of transparency to the experience.
If you were in iem full Las Vegas, New York, or Shanghai, that Marriott experience is gonna be very consistent. I think what, what the, I think the rise of the lifestyle hotel has corresponded, corresponded. Uh, with, with the proliferation of information I e the internet, you know, I now can know what the GM's name is of that 50 room hotel in, in, in Costa Rica because the Internet's healthy.
What it's, Yeah. And that's a level of detail that, you know, the typical guests just did have access to 25, 30 years ago. Um, so I think more than anything that's really been why, you know, the lifestyle hotel business has, has grown. And, you know, you see in the life cycle where all the, where all the, the acquisitions were, they were of the kind of traditional ho hotel companies [00:28:00] buying lifestyle brands.
Um, because, you know, because that's what guests want. Totally. They want both things, right? Like they want the reliability, and that's what your father was talking about, like, Yeah. But they also want to, they also wanna have the engagement with the, you know, the plate. Hmm. I wanna go back
Dan Ryan: to the, the powerful idea that you had of like, it's your job as a hotelier to produce a motion, Right?
So that's your thesis, and it really depends on where you're going. I, many people don't know, but you come from a film background, right?
Jeremy Selman: I, I do.
Dan Ryan: So, but I, I wanna kind of tie it in because we're, where film is like the ultimate storytelling. You're, you're kind of limited at a screen, right? But you're also trying to evoke emotion.
If you could go back to your, you know, your Hollywood days, what did, how did you, is there a thread that connects the emotion that you would learn how to like, work towards, in a, in a [00:29:00] film production to what you're doing in hotels? Is there any kind of thread that you can do to, that took you from that original place to becoming a hotelier, uh, that you've carried on with you?
Jeremy Selman: Yeah, and look, I don't wanna overstate my experience in the film business. It was a very intense experience for a short while, a long period ago. I, I, I feel like I'm well heard in the Big Chill. Um, uh, but it was a profound experience for me. And look, I I, I don't, it was less about, it was less about, um, emotion for me and or the, the, through the through line.
It was less about emotion. Um, and, and more about like the, the alchemy of, of collaboration. Um, and, you know, the, the film business in the place that I was, and I, I worked for a, a rather infamous gentleman named Scott Rudin, who, uh, is notoriously tough and, and, and [00:30:00] ran into some problems. But I could also say, you know, while I was, uh, while I was, um, a.
While I experienced some of that, uh, some of that toughness was a really powerful and positive experience for me. Um, and, uh, and, you know, the, the, the film business, um, at least then, uh, was really about collaboration. And there was a lot of left brain, right brain, and all of a sudden you had all these people coming together.
You had technical people, you had marketing people, and you had creative people, and they were producing something that on their own no single, individual or function could do. And that's really the same in the lifestyle hotel space. It's, it's, it's the idea of, you know, the team coming together and, you know, the, the, the people that get known for being hotel, and I'm, you know, I'll reference the Ian's and the [00:31:00] Andres, you know, they're, they're more about being great producers or conductors.
Than they are about being great artists. And so, you know, and, and, and that's not to disparage. It's a, it's a much more powerful thing to be able to get the best out of other people and bring them together than, than, uh, than to be able to do it yourself. And I think when you lose sight of that, like that's when totals start to fail when they think it's about them and not about, you know, the team.
You know, I, I think there is failure, some of it has to do with ego, but a lot of it just to do with the passing of time. And, you know, we started this by saying like, you know, I'm no longer the youngest person in the room. If you, if you think that your taste at at 45 in my case are going to be entirely applicable to people at 25, I'd be fooling myself.
So, you know, I think if you think of the hotelier as a, [00:32:00] a conductor or producer, , it allows for you to remain relevant for a very long time versus if you view yourself as the taste maker or the creator, because you know, you, you will evolve with age, but you're probably evolving in a way that is different than somebody that was, I was talking
Dan Ryan: to someone a couple of chats ago and more on the CapEx side of like doing the renovation or the new build.
And this term came out that was like conducting the symphony of insanity or something like that.
Jeremy Selman: wrangling.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. Wrangling cats. But I, I, What's resonated the, the most of me as you were talking about this is, uh, you, you said the alchemy of collaboration. Mm-hmm. . And I think that's a really good entry point into the next part because of the 22 hotels that you've worked on in your career post, post Hollywood, Jeremy, mm-hmm.
Uh, You've had so many partners [00:33:00] from, um, Capital Partners to operating partners, to vendor partners, to consultant partners. Um, and then as you look at like what you, what you've learned there, even with mgm, like huge corporate partners, um, as you look at where you from, where you've come to where you're going, what excites you most about the partnerships and the vision of where you're going from here forward?
Thinking about that alchemy of collaboration, basically, like what did you learn from all of your past partnerships to where you're
Jeremy Selman: going now? Um,
you know, I, I, I wish it was something more tangible than, than just like an openness. I think, you know, the, the, the openness to new ideas is just so important. Um, And if I, if I think about, uh, the, the [00:34:00] unique successes that we've had, and, and a lot of them have to do with being pioneering, You know, it's really about an openness to do to new ideas.
The idea that a hostile can be elevated is a new idea. You know, the, the freehand is the result of that idea. But if we weren't open to it, you know, if, if, if we didn't have, uh, you know, partners that believed in it, um, and partners that were excited by it, and those partners were, you know, boring banks to, you know, really, uh, really interesting and aggressive financial partners, um, and, uh, as well as operating partners, it would never have come.
And so, you know, and the same thing holds for the Ned. You know, Soho House was in a, was an amazing, amazing idea that had been rooted in the idea of a space where creatives can come [00:35:00] together. I mean, that, that is the idea. And so House has become this really amazing and powerful machine. Um, but it started from that idea.
And so, you know, the Ned was like, Will will people show up to this in the middle of, of the city? You know, all we heard is like, the city is dead from, you know, Friday afternoon to, to Monday morning, and every night by seven o'clock it's dead. And so, like, why on earth would you open up, you know, 50,000 square feet of food and beverage space plus a membership club in, in, in the middle of the.
and we kind of looked around and we saw, you know, how successful Soho houseless and shortage, which is, you know, less than a mile away. Um, and, uh, and the influx of, you know, Bloomberg coming in and, and, and we said, Okay, we should be open to this idea [00:36:00] here. And if we were closed off to the idea, we, we never would've even started.
And so, you know, for right now I'm thinking, I'm thinking a lot about, uh, about the future in terms of like, what idea should I be open to, you know? And, and I think Covid has presented so many interesting challenges and opportunities. I sound like a, like a, a business consultant. Um, but you know, I think the, the challenge of the industry is really to understand like, you know, which of these, which of these trends.
Are are more perpetual. I mean, definitionally a trend is not perpetual, but, but which of these trends are more long lasting? And which of these trends are a very short term reaction to a very intense, you know, a very intense moment in time. Um, and so like that, that's how, that's how I'm thinking about the future is, you know, where, where are the opportu?
Like what opportunities should I [00:37:00] be listening to? So, you know, is it, is it building another urban hotel ground up in the middle of Manhattan? You know, for, for a lot of people that feels kind of revolutionary right now. Um, and I'm not dismissing it, you know, I'm spending a lot of time, you know, on one particular project thinking about like, who is the audience for this today?
Um, and who will be the audience for this in the future? And is this. Is this something that I, that, that we, the capital markets should be, should be listening to? Um, I think the, the kind of the drive to business, uh, is another question that's sort of sitting out there. If you look at where capital has flow has flowed, you know, during covid it's been to both, uh, luxury and, and, and more value oriented product in drive to market.
You know, how sustainable is that? [00:38:00] Um, and, and or how fleet is that trend? And so like that, that is really how I'm, I'm spending my time strategically. There's all the practical, you know, business of opening a new hotel, uh, you know, that, that we need to be thinking about in terms of Perla and some of our other existing assets in, in Dallas.
But also, um, but, but the, the more kind of creative strategic side is just really asking that question like, What should I be listening to right now? Like what, what ideas should I be open to? Should we be open to, um,
Dan Ryan: and, and actually as, as you're talking about, what ideas that you should be open to. Um, I think what I was struck by most when you and Vipin were up being interviewed by Daniel Del Elmo in that
Jeremy Selman: at the Dip and Naar is my, is my partner, he's the founder and senior principal at h p, um, a wonderful guy.
[00:39:00] And, you know, is, is definitely the more sort of discipline and financial person of the two of us. So, uh Right. A real balance between us, Right.
Dan Ryan: But that's what struck me the most about that conversation was you are bringing in so many of these ideas and oftentimes I found like the financial partner could be, you know, very binary, black and white.
But it seemed to me you guys spent so much time talking about both of you being open to ideas and having a really honest and, um, Frank dialogue, which I'm sure you would have with any partner, but there was something about how you guys were talking to each other and talking to the audience that I felt like there was something a bit more open hearted about it.
I don't know really how to, um, I don't know what the word is. I just got a, I just got a feeling that it's a very special partnership.
Jeremy Selman: It, it, it is. And, um, I spent some time reading a book by Michael Eisner that was about partnership and, you know, it, it really, [00:40:00] it really affected me, um, in terms of understanding the, the power of, of partnerships at that executive level.
Um, you know, Michael very, uh, honest about, um, about his own. And, and, and, and the influence that Frank Wells had on his success. And they were sort of set up initially to these competitors and they, and they ultimately ended up being wonderful partners. And so, look, I have, I have played the financial disciplinarian many times.
Like my, my role on the NED was much less creative and much more about, you know, providing guardrails and structure around what ended up being incredibly complicated and expensive project. It was the exact opposite of my role at MGM where I was supposed to be coming with the, with the ideas and, and, and, you know, the collaboration and the financial discipline was much more of a corporate function of, of mgm.
Um, [00:41:00] but, you know, I think, I think having people with the ability to, to traverse those two things, the ven diagram between my skill and Vivian's skillset is shows a tremendous amount of overlap. Um, so it, it's not that we don't have the capability, it's just the sort of role that we play in the partnership.
Um, and I think that's a really important distinction. You know, Vivin is an incredibly creative person in his own right. He's a trained architect. Um, but his role in our partnership is the one that's really focused on the capital structure and, and, and the discipline. And mine is the one that's much more focused on the creative collaboration and the product.
It doesn't mean that we're not capable of doing the other, that we don't find importance and value in the other function. You know, I would not be a, as a good hotelier if I was not disciplined financially and Vipin would not be a great investor, uh, in the types of products that he invest in, both with me and without [00:42:00] me if he wasn't incredibly creative and had amazing vision.
So, you know, it, it's, it's, it's about the roles we play, not the skills we have. Mm. Um,
Dan Ryan: and then how did you come across, uh, Vipin? Like when did you
Jeremy Selman: guys meet? So we, we met, um, we met, uh, we met, met, uh, in the, in the month between my departure from, uh, the Dell, uh, at the end of, of Q3 2019. And, uh, and Covid . Um, and we were working with a bunch of other really wonderful partners on a project in Dallas.
Um, we were both brought to the partnership by others and just kind of gravitated towards each other. Um, and, and unfortunately when that, when that deal, uh, fell victim to Covid challenges, [00:43:00] uh, he and I stayed in touch and continued to, to look at opportunities together. Um, and after about a year or so of doing that, Decided to, to kind of really strategically pursue things together.
Um, and so that, that was the genesis. Um, it's a, you know, it is now a, a a three year relationship as time compresses and really remarkable ways. Um, but uh, but is relatively new in both of our careers. Uh, wonderful. But, you know, I think we both had vi and left, uh, you know, the, the Hunt Enterprises. Um, in 2017.
I left Sdel in 2019 and you know, I think we both saw the value in, in working with larger organizations, but also the importance in going out on your own of finding partners that you can really trust and have like [00:44:00] a real emotional alignment with, as well as sort of a financial alignment. So, you know, VI and I have that, which is wonderful.
Dan Ryan: I, I love it. And then I, I, I definitely thank you for mentioning the, uh, Michael Eisner book, who was, who was the partner that he was set up originally to be competitors with.
Jeremy Selman: Uh, uh, his name was Frank Wells. Frank Wells, Okay.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. The reason why I'm asking, as we're talking about partnerships, um, in 2019, I was having challenges with my, with my furniture company, and a phone call rang, my phone rang, and it was this guy, Gary Berman from Berman Falk, and he's like, Hey, Dan, um, I've been in your situation before.
Can you know I'd love to talk to you about doing something different? And I was like, You're kidding me. That was amazing. And now, so thinking about, and I've never had partners until recently in the, I guess we're entering our fourth year now, almost to the day, so it's 2019 to now. Um, but being able to find those [00:45:00] one plus one equal three or five, where there's, it's like an accretive.
Union. It's, it's really
Jeremy Selman: amazing. Right. That's the of collaboration, right? Like that, that is in a, in a nutshell amongst two people, but it could be amongst, you know, companies and teams. But that's, that's what I'm talking about, you know, you know, when you can add one plus one, get eight, you know, that's value created.
So what's the
biggest,
Dan Ryan: uh, what's the looking back metrics on that one plus one equals X. What's the largest, what's blood projects that or collaboration that you've worked on in your life, in your career yielded the largest
Jeremy Selman: x It's, it's probably the net and the, the net in London. And I think, you know, the, the, the, the value there is [00:46:00] really hard to determine in a, in a covid world.
I can talk about the trending X as of, you know, Q1 2020. That was, that was the greatest, you know, we, we had, and, and it really involved, um, it really involved, uh, um, participation and influence from every aspect. So, you know, we had a, we had a, uh, an in an investor in, in Ron Burle, who, you know, saw the potential in a partnership between two companies that he had, you know, invested in and, and really helped grow, meaning, uh, so House and Fidel.
Um, he saw, he had trust and faith that we would be able to create something that sort of broke the, you know, the understood constraints of, of the city. We had a ground [00:47:00] landlord. Um, who was willing to make a substantial investment alongside Ron, um, in, in, in terms of a, a structure there that was really, uh, beneficial to getting the project off the ground.
Um, and we had Sadel and Soho House who each had to play their part. You know, I think Soho House had to think about, you know, membership in a way that was different than, than their sort of historic creatives only. Um, and Sadel had to go into a new market and really believe that, you know, we could apply the, the, the development discipline and know how that we had in the States in this sort of foreign land.
And, and, you know, and partner with somebody like Soho House who, you know, was known for creating really wonderful products, but sometimes having a bit of a rocky road getting there. And so, You know, it took a lot of faith and collaboration to get [00:48:00] there. And, you know, I'm not at liberty to talk to specific values there, but, you know, the returns were monumental, um, or they were trending in a monumental way,
Dan Ryan: Infinity and beyond
Um, okay. So I love that you, I'm gonna just, I call it r and d, rip off and duplicate, but I'm gonna r and d the alchemy of collaboration, um, for a lot of conversations because I think especially in hospitality, as we think about that one plus one equals not two, it has to be three or greater. Like, it's almost like we have to look at that as a filter for everything that we do.
And I think it, it also just shows when you start going down that line of questioning, it's like we all stand on the shoulders of those before us, right? And we all. We're not in a vacuum. We all depend on everyone. And to really produce that emotion, that the ultimate goal is we just kind of [00:49:00] have to go there.
So if we take that alchemy of collaboration and look to the future, what's exciting you most about the future with respect to a alchemy of collaboration in your worldview and what you got
Jeremy Selman: going on? Um, well, you know, I, I'm, I am, I am taking the opportunity of not having a 3000 person company, which is what, you know, Sadel became, um, to focus in on some smaller projects.
Um, and that's been a really kind of rewarding experience. We, we, we quickly grew, uh, at the Dell to a place where, um, where, you know, we, we couldn't really look at, at. At hundred Room hotels, even if the economics worked, then we, we won't go into the challenges of operating at that scale. [00:50:00] Um, uh, the, the, the size itself became a real challenge when we had a, you know, 25 to 30 person development team all, uh, all really talented and, and compensated accordingly.
Um, and you really just kind of a wonderful shit, a wonderful leadership team, uh, at, at the Dell. Uh, you know, and I'd be remiss in not mentioning Andrew oer, who was the ceo, you know, was the founder. Um, and, and it became very challenging us for us to do these sort of smaller, uh, personal projects mm-hmm.
And so, uh, you know, Vivin and I have set ourselves up in a way that we can, that we can do some of these smaller projects if they make sense financially. Um, and so, uh, we are, we are working on some, you know, much smaller, you know, 70,000 square foot and lower projects, [00:51:00] um, which, you know, which, when we're not thinking about quote unquote feeding the machine, we can, we can do.
Um, and so, you know, we, we we're thinking about scalability. So like, for me, that's what I'm personally most excited about. Um, I think from an industry standpoint, I think what I'm most excited about is really understanding the balance between technology and service. I think it's gonna be the greatest challenge that the industry faces going forward.
Um, from a hospitality standpoint, there's gonna be other financial pressure, um, which are going to heavily influence that conversation. Um, but I think that's, that's the challenge that I'm, that, that is gonna face the industry is like, how, how do we balance those things? Um, because we definitely have some competitors blanking us, and I'm talking about, um, I'm talking about like the SAS of the world, which are, you know, heavily [00:52:00] technology reliant, um, but not particularly human touch, uh, reliant.
Um, and I think the hospitality industry can combat that. Uh, and, you know, combat makes it sound aggressive. I, I, I'm not speaking about it an aggressive way, but, but there's a counterpoint or, or an experience that can be derived through producing or, or enabling more kind of human contact. And so how do we balance those things to continue to allow hotels to be feasible, continue to pay a strong living wage to the, to the people that deliver that service.
Um, but also not having hotel rooms that have to cost, you know, three times as much as they did five years ago. Yeah.
Dan Ryan: Um, it's interesting as you talked about the, um, the growth and scale that, um, that sdel achieved, and then you think about the [00:53:00] leadership team that's there, it's always difficult to get over certain hurdles for any business, right?
Like you're a founder, then you're, you know, on this growth path you're scaling. Like, what happens then? What hap, and I don't really want to talk about this, but I was just having a conversation with someone the other day thinking about with the rise of Amazon, how incredible Jeff Bezos has been as a, as a CEO lover, hate Amazon.
Um, he, he's not the CEO as of recently, but he went from being the dude driving around in his beat up Toyota Camry all the way to, you know, within the past year I think he left his CEO seat. And it's insane to think that he did that. Like there's, I don't, I can't think of another company that had the same CEO
Jeremy Selman: through that whole.
I mean, Mark Zuckerberg is another one. I mean, they, there, there are examples now, but they're truly unicorn. Right. And, and I think for, for most, most examples, [00:54:00] and look, we're talking about software, so scalability, talking about technology, the scalability of technology is very different than the scalability of like consumer products and other things.
Mm-hmm. , um, you know, Starbucks is a, probably a good example of having a, you know, a consistent CEO took a hiatus but came back Apple is also similar. Um, I think, you know, when, when, when, and the role of a CEO is something that I, I think I'll a lot about. Um, and, and quite honestly advise CEOs today about, um, and look ultimately the, the, the role of an entrepreneurial CEO is to do everything and the role of a.
Of a stabilized company CEO is to, is to set strategy and maintain focus and uh, and think about capital. Like, you know, whether that capital is from the private markets or the public markets. Those are the two [00:55:00] basic functions of a CEO in a, in a kind of established,
Dan Ryan: But I would also say there's a third one too.
It's like really always breathing life into the culture of the, of the company. Right. I feel like that's often, I hear what you're saying, but I also feel like to, to keep going and keep that special glue or that special sauce that kind of binds everyone. There's gotta be like a culture cheerleader or, and maybe that goes into the strategy component, but I, I feel like that is overarching
Jeremy Selman: everything.
Um, yeah. I, I think of that as, as strategy, as part of the strategy and focus, but it is absolutely critical, you know, and, uh, and I think is in some respects, is. The greatest challenge of, of companies, whether they're big or small, is understanding what their culture is. Defining it in some way that allows you to communicate it to your team is, is a huge, is a huge challenge, and [00:56:00] one that often is ignored, um, because of resource scarcity for a long time.
And I totally get it. You know, when you're, when you're in a, in a, in a resource scarce environment, strategy becomes, uh, a very, very narrow thing. Um, but, uh, but I completely agree
Dan Ryan: with you. Uh, and it's also on the culture. It's not just identifying and disseminating to the team. It's also the real key is getting that hiring because then you can bring in more people on the team within that umbrella of culture.
But then they also become, Raving cultural advocates for whatever the mission is. And it's a, it's really exciting. I know it's really hard, but it, I think it, it, the key that I've seen is it just needs to become a part of the vernacular or the lexicon. Like it has to be not just a poster on a wall, it's gotta be lived and breathed and spoken about all the
Jeremy Selman: [00:57:00] time.
Absolutely. Like, I think culture is, culture is something that needs to be openly spoken about and talk. I sort of harken back to, the comments I made about, like, my own hiring practices. That's why I'm always asking like, what interests you outside of work, you know? Mm-hmm. , like you're going to be, a lot, is going to be asked of you within these four walls of work.
So, you need to be passionate about what you're doing here and and you need to start to think about it a little bit less like work. And more about lifestyle, um, you know, boom, about your lifestyle. So like, what do you want? Like how do you spend your time when you're not here? Because I want that to influence how you spend your time while you're here.
If you're really passionate about music and art, I wanna understand in the development process, like how are you [00:58:00] influencing, how, how is the product being influenced by this passion of you? Because I'm going to, I'm going to let you exercise that passion in this process. Um,
Dan Ryan: or we could call that passion.
You wanna enable others hutzpah to bring it back full circle, right? So that then they can produce the emotion. Yeah. And I guess, and I guess maybe I'm walking away like from this conversation with you, just thinking about, it's like, I think that's a really powerful concept. I know I was doing it kind of tongue and cheek there, but enabling and empowering those.
To bring out their own emotion, to bring out the best emotions of others. Like that is really what the secret sauce of hospitality or really anything is. And that's why I think hospitality is applicable to absolutely everything.
Jeremy Selman: Yeah. So we're seeing it, right? Yeah. I mean, there's a whole different conversation than the confluence of, of lifestyle, [00:59:00] hospitality and everything else, but, um, but I, but I think you're a hundred percent right.
I mean, it's not, it's not limited to hospitality. Totally. You know, you don't want somebody that's working for you that's not passionate about furniture design. Right. I mean, if, if, if they go home at night and they burn furniture, like that's probably like an extreme example. They probably should not be working for you.
Totally. You know? But if somebody likes to go out and eat a lot and, you know, they experience lots of different restaurants like, Think about how powerful their point of view on, on the quality of feeding will be. Yeah. And you know, I know it's something I learned a lot from, from Nick Jones about, it's just like, what is the nature of the seat?
Like how does it feel when you're sitting here and eating? And the amount of prototyping we did proceeding a FiNet was intense at sometimes I thought [01:00:00] ridiculous. But I think the end result was like, people really enjoyed sitting in our seat. Yeah. And, you know, and that, and that meant they were buying more and drinking more.
And so that was, that was, you know, that was a powerful lesson.
Dan Ryan: Did you happen to check out Soho farmhouse while, while you were out there? Yes.
Jeremy Selman: I, I, I have
Dan Ryan: visited. It's amazing. It's so cool.
Jeremy Selman: It is. It's really amazing. Um,
Dan Ryan: Well, Jeremy, I know that we could keep talking for hours, but I want to just, um, be mindful of your time and, and just express my extreme gratitude for your time.
Like if people wanted to learn more about what you're up to, uh, what's, what's going on, what's the best way for them to, to get in touch with
Jeremy Selman: you? Um, for right now, the best way through LinkedIn, um, it's just my name, Jeremy Selman. Uh, Great. You can, you can find me there. Yeah,
Dan Ryan: we'll put it in the show notes as well.
Um, but I really appreciate this conversation so much [01:01:00] for the ideas of collaboration and producing emotion. And thank you for helping me think a little bit differently about it and like, this has been just
Jeremy Selman: wonderful. So thank you. This was amazing. Thank you so much. I really loved this experience. Thank you.
And then,
Dan Ryan: I also wanna thank our listeners because again, it gets boring saying this, but I'm gonna keep saying it because it's fucking awesome. We, our listenership grows every single week, which just tells me that we are not bound to the confines of the hospitality industry. I think that it's really resonating.
These talks about hospitality, emotion, collaboration, the built environment. It's applicable to everything. So if this changed the way that you think about hospitality or just life, please pass it on to a friend. And thank you everyone. We will catch up next time.
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